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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: DecoGal on Friday 15 May 20 10:11 BST (UK)
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Hi - this is my first post, so apologies if it is in the wrong place!
For a few years I've been stuck in regards to tracing the parents of my 3rd great grandmother (Agnes Dawson). I gave up a while back and made progress in other areas of my tree. I have now returned to this specific search - and I'm still stumped.
Here's the info I have so far:
My 3rd great grandmother appears on the 1871 census in Saddleworth Yorkshire, as Agnes Dawson (servant) born in Birkenhead approx 1851. She then marries John Norton in 1873 in Normanton Yorkshire. Their marriage entry lists a William Dawson (Bricklayer) as her father, and a Fanny Dawson witnesses the marriage.
In 1873, Agnes (now Norton) witnesses the marriage of a Frances Dawson to a Samuel Upton. This also occurred in Normanton Yorkshire, and Frances also lists her father as William Dawson (Bricklayer).
On the 1871 census, I have found Frances Dawson living in Birkenhead as a servant (approx dob 1852/1853) with the birth place listed as Birkenhead.
Based on this info, I think it's safe to assume that Frances (possibly also known as Fanny) and Agnes are sisters, both from Birkenhead, whose father was William, a bricklayer.
I have found both sisters and their husbands going forward, on the census' for 1881, 1891, and 1901 - unfortunately at no point do any other family members live with them (i.e. no father William or mother). Agnes lives in Yorkshire for the rest of her life, however Frances moves to Nottinghamshire.
I cannot find Agnes, Frances or their father William on any census prior to 1861 - in fact I cannot find William Dawson anywhere at all. Due to Agnes and Frances being born in Birkenhead (with Frances/Fanny stating New Brighton, Cheshire on a few census') I have focused my search in this area. I can't find a birth entry for the girl's either.
Some further digging into my 3rd great grandmother Agnes Dawson (then Norton after marriage) has provided some more info, although rather sad. Her husband dies in 1887, and then ten years later her 10 year old daughter (her namesake) drowns in Calder river (Yorkshire). This is detailed in a newspaper article and a coroner's report. Agnes then lives at the workhouse and is then admitted to the lunatic asylum in 1898. She seems to be there for about a year, however a few years later she is sent to prison for 14 days for being drunk. She dies in 1910 aged aprox 59.
Her son, John William Norton (my 2nd great grandfather) was sent to Calder Farm Boys Reformatory School, Yorkshire in 1891 for about 5 years, for stealing some rabbits. His admission form lists his uncle as Samuel Upton (Frances Dawson's husband) with an address in Nottinghamshire - which correlates with the info I have for Frances. Interestingly, a 'grandfather' is listed. It appears to state the shorthand for William (large W with small m), but the surname is odd. I actually can't make out what it says! I will attach a photo - I can't make out whether the first letter is an O, C or even maybe a J. The address is in Wakefield - I have searched the census (looked through all the scans pages) for that area and nothing has stood out. I can't actually find the house that is noted for this 'William' on John's admission document. I checked the name of John's other grandfather, and this does not match at all. I was hopeful that this grandfather was Willian Dawson - but now I'm not so sure.
I think what is most puzzling, is the absence of a William Dawson as a Bricklayer, in any census that I can find. I also can't find Agnes and Frances/Fanny living together in 1861 anywhere. Is it possible that they were going by a different name prior to 1871? If so, why then go by Dawson from the 1871 census? Could their mother have found another partner if William had died early on, so her children went by that name until they moved out? The absence of a birth entry as Dawson, particularly for Agnes with her being the elder, is most frustrating. I have also searched marriage entries with William Dawson (bricklayer) as the father to see if any other siblings have got married, and can't find any.
Any advice or hints would be gratefully received! Sometimes you look at something for so long, you need a fresh perspective!
Thanks in advance :)
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Hi and welcome, this looks an interesting one to try and solve.
I see Agnes put Wakefield for place of birth in 1881 which may tie in with the other Wakefield info you found.
The surname looks like Chard, I wondered if it was Mr rather than Wm but either way.
As both she and Frances put father William bricklayer less likely it was made up unless they colluded.
As you say no birth registrations under Dawson but can have a look for Agnes/Frances in 1861 without surname to see if any likely possibles show up, they must have been somewhere.
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Not getting anywhere :-\ thought about checking the children's birth registrations (children of Agnes and Frances) to see if by chance a different maiden name was shown.
Only tried Samuel Upton so far but mothers name Dawson. Likely they will all have that but just an idea.
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Apropos of nothing but in Bridlington, Yorkshire in 1861
RG09
Piece number 3612
Folio 104
Page 23
Is a family indexed as ESNARD on FindMyPast, but in the image it has a lot of similarities to the entry that looks like Chard
Added to say it’s ERHARD on Ancestry
There is a daughter Agnes but 10 years too young.
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Interesting find it does look like the Chard word doesn't it. And William was a bricklayer
Is there anything else on the document with grandfather on that might help us?
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Wonder what the correct spelling actually is
Birth registration for that Agnes in Bridlington Mar 1860 is Ethert mothers name Coulson
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I wondered if the mystery surname was O'Hara, but that hasn't got me anywhere. However, I have found a Schofield's Yard on Westgate, Wakefield in the 1891 census - it begins at RG12/3749 fo48 p22. Allowing for mishearing, could this be it?
I didn't see any of the names you've mentioned there, though there was a Henry Quinn, a brick setter's labourer from Birkenhead, married to a Martha from Harrogate. Henry was 38, Martha 41. Maybe just a coincidence, though.
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It seems that there was a business proprietor in the Westgate area of Wakefield in the later decades of the 19th C. called "Scowby" - so that area may well have been described as "Scowby's Yard"
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I noticed that some of the yards (possibly in 1881?) seemed to be named after people living at the front on Westgate itself. I wonder - did the yards' names become firmly established, or did they change if the occupants at the front changed?
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Hi Milliepede, Mckha489, Arthuk, and ThrelfallYorky - thanks so much for the welcome and your replies :) And thank you for having a look into this for me!
Yes, on first reading I did think it was Chard - and I do think it probably says 'Mr'. Wishful thinking that it was William. Although it really is a puzzle - who is this Mr Chard? I have searched the census in Wakefield for any names ending in *ard but without knowing who I'm looking for exactly, its very frustrating. I'm not sure why he would have been listed as a grandfather, and he certainly isn't the paternal grandfather, who was Thomas Norton.
At the moment, I'm wondering whether the two girls went by another name in their childhood (maybe William Dawson had died and their mother remarried?), but why they would have used Dawson after leaving home in 1871 I don't know. The sister Frances giving New Brighton as a birth place is rather specific - and I can't find any Frances/Fanny living with an Agnes in New Brighton or Wallasey area between 1851 and 1861. And no birth entries that look like they could be a match. I've scanned through the census for Wallasey for 1861 and nothing stands out. It's not a massive area, so I might do this again.
I have found that a family named Scowby had a licence for a dram shop on Westgate in Wakefield, which by the looks of it could have been what has recently been known Alfred Mooney's/Moodies Public House. This has an entrance on Little Westgate - so could this have possibly been where the mysterious Mr Chard was living? Although the licence was transferred to another proprietor in 1890 - I've attached the screenshot for that as it may hold some coincidences? Just because of the Mr/Wm Ch- connection! I think I will try again at the 1891 Wakefield census to see if I can find something of relevance for this address - although it may not clearly link back to my Norton/Dawsons.
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I think the new licensee of the public house is a red herring unfortunately. He is William Chalmers Beattie - I've found him residing there on the 1891 census. There is no connection to my ancestors, but it has allowed me to locate the property on the census (in case this is where Scowby's Yard was, with the pub being on Little Westgate and having been previously ran by the Scowby family). I've had a look at all pages of this census (District 12 Wakefield) and can't see the mysterious Mr Chard anywhere :(
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Hi, the grandfather's name looks like Mr Okard to me
Ray
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Or maybe supposed to be Orchard?
Not helping whatever it is. I tried looking for all the names suggested in Wakefield on census but nothing jumps out.
This really is a brick wall for your first post DecoGal, I can quite see why you are stumped :-\
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... But we're all still puzzling about it, with you.
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Really clutching at straws here but there is a family in 1861
Limekiln Cottages, Birkenhead
Parents William and Sarah Mallard (possibly Mellard?) with a daughter Frances aged 6, born New Brighton, Cheshire
Found a death for a Sarah Mellard in 1863 Wirral
Also a family in 28 Tamworth Street, Toxteth Park
John and Frances Mallard with a daughter Agnes aged 10 born Everton.
At first I thought perhaps cousins but definately does nt add up if both fathers on marriages are William :(
I wonder if the grandfather s first name William might have run into the surname (if you see what I mean) and it could have started with M but written with a vowel.
Far fetched , i would agree!
Cathy
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It's the only straw we've got at the moment so must follow it up if we can even if it gets ruled out.
Birth for Agnes Mallard Dec 1850 has mothers name Spencer and I think
John Mallard marries Frances Spencer in 1848.
And then it doesn't really lead anywhere helpful that I can see :-\
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Looking at the other family Cathy has found
Fanny Mellard birth Sep 1855 has mothers name Robinson
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After looking carefully at that 1881 census entry, it seems very muddled - his 'n' her birthplaces swapped.... there's a notation that seems to relate to Mary Ann, in the disabilities column, too, 'tho I've not managed to make a lot of sense of it. I'm pretty sure her birthplace remained Birkenhead area - perhaps the enumerator was as confused as us?
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Which 1881 with a Mary Ann are you looking at?
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Oh, the 1881 Doncaster area one, Denby Main, with the Norton family, and their (rather muddled up ) birthplaces.Ed11 piece 4686, fol37 p 47.
(I've been hunting around the census years and the various members of the family.) To add to the confusion, there's another where "Dawson" looks more like "Lawson". My brain is really aching now.)
TY
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Thanks yes I see the one you mean with the arrow down to the birthplace mix up.
I was wondering if there was a Scottish link with the name Agnes and they moved to Birkenhead area when they were young.
Is it feasible to look for a birth in Scotland for Agnes and/or Frances "Dawson" with a father William?
Or maybe an 1861 census entry.
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There's a family tree that has Frances/Fanny down as a half sister to Agnes but no mother shown for either of them so perhaps that is why.
The other marriage witness for Fanny looks like Robert Diggles? More straw clutching but I wonder if he would lead to anything.
Somewhat to my surprise there is a Robert Diggles on census in Normanton but don't see any link as yet.
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Wishful thinking but a daughter of Robert - Ann Diggles marries in Normanton 1870 - is one of the witness names Dawson?
Perhaps someone could have a look.
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Dawson or Dowson
Initials....T W? T N?
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Wishful thinking but a daughter of Robert - Ann Diggles marries in Normanton 1870 - is one of the witness names Dawson?
Perhaps someone could have a look.
Hi everyone - thanks so much for all your replies. I'm just working my way through them!
I have just had a quick look at the Diggles marriage - what a good call Milliepede! Looks like a Dawson witnessed it - very interesting indeed! Maybe a J.W? Thanks so much for this suggestion. I've attached a screenshot.
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Dawson or Dowson
Initials....T W? T N?
It is a strange coincidence if it turns out to be no relation!
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I'm wandering off on a tangent now looking for Dawson's in Normanton.
Have found an Ellen Dawson who married an Abraham Armett in 1869. Her father was William Haigh so she must have been widowed - wonder if her first husband was called William the elusive bricklayer!
Oh wait she was only 31 in 1869 so too young to be the mother of Agnes rats :(
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Back to the witness there is a Thos Wm Dawson lodger age 26 born Scotland in Normanton 1871 census.
Have to leave it there for tonight have waffled on enough!
Was looking at William Dawson's in Cheshire but an absolute dearth of bricklayers :-\
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I spent some time (!) yesterday seeking Frances or Fanny, with father William linked to building work, and any sisters with a middle initial "A", who might have been Agnes in disguise! I really must get a life! Lockdown!!!
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I spent some time (!) yesterday seeking Frances or Fanny, with father William linked to building work, and any sisters with a middle initial "A", who might have been Agnes in disguise! I really must get a life! Lockdown!!!
I am so grateful for this though! Although I have done the same/similar on countless occasions, I feel that I must have missed something. So it is reassuring to know that others are looking too!
Today I have been looking at all marriages in Yorkshire and Cheshire with surname of Dowson. And then went back to check all Dawsons again - looking for the possibility of another sibling or maybe a cousin.
I have also looked at all the marriages for the Diggles children in case a Dawson/Dowson shows up as a witness!
I enjoy a challenge, but this is something else! ???
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I hope the next puzzle you post is a little easier than this one ;D it's definitely not you missing something that's for sure.
Maybe they were both adopted and given different names but can't help feeling a link to Scotland with the name Agnes.
I keep thinking of the grandfather, whatever his surname was, could unlock something for us.
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I'm sure we'll keep popping back to it from time to time, just in case we have another idea where to search. Good luck ... oh, and I forgot right at the start, to say "Welcome".
TY