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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: david1701 on Friday 15 May 20 15:18 BST (UK)
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Apologies in advance for the length of this post – but I need to set out a certain amount of detail.
Basically, I obviously realise that times are strange at present, with the coronavirus lockdown – but I wonder if anyone has access to the Staveley (Derbyshire) Parish Records – or the BTs?
I ask because I’m re-visiting my problem (posted on here back in 2015), of trying to track down the baptisms of both my 6x great grandfather – Joseph Wildsmith – and his wife, Jane Norborne. They were married in Staveley on December 1st, 1713 (record available at FreeReg, but not on Familysearch, Ancestry or FindMyPast). Jane died in 1723 and Joseph re-married in 1724. His new wife was Barbara Saxton, with the marriage taking place at Chesterfield on 13th November. His marriage allegation for this second marriage – available on FindMyPast, indicates that in 1724 he was aged 34 – ie was born in 1690 or thereabouts.
Joseph had several children by both Jane and then Barbara – and a very helpful response by “spendlove” to my original post noted that the English Naming Pattern (if followed in this case), pointed to Joseph’s parents being Robert and Ann, with Jane’s parents being William and Mary.
There was, indeed, a Wildsmith family living in Staveley at the appropriate time – with parents Robert and Anne – and some 9 children, born between 1678 and 1698. But no sign of a Joseph. Mary was baptised 19th Feb 1688, with William baptised 22nd March 1691 – so there is a suitable "gap" where my Joseph could have been born/baptised – but no mention of him.
However, this brings me to the main reason for this current post. In the past I have examined microfilms of the Staveley Parish Records, at an LDS Family History Centre and the Derbyshire Records Office at Matlock – and have also examined the BTs at the old Lichfield Records Office. On none of these occasions was I able to find a baptism for Joseph or Jane – but I’m now wondering whether I might simply have overlooked them.
To explain why I’m saying this, I need to also explain that the typed transcripts of the Staveley Parish Registers which were compiled by Anthony and Sheila Smith in 2001 (which I saw at the Lichfield Records Office), and which also form the basis of the Baptism, Marriage and Burial information on the ``Staveley One Place Study” website, appear to have incorrectly recorded a baptism (illegitimate?) in 1670 of an “Alice” – where the father is recorded in the transcripts as “Robert Smith” – but where the actual Register entry seems to me to clearly read “Robert Wildsmith”. Please see attached photo.
I read this as saying “Alice Daughter (as said) of Robert Wildsmith & Anne Olay* bapt Oct 2”
[*or “Clay”, as the transcript says]
All of this is just to suggest that if there has been a transcription error in this case, might there also have been another error – such that I might find a baptism for Joseph Wildsmith, in the 1689-1691 period, if I’m able to check the original registers or the BTs again? I accept that this may well have to wait until the coronavirus lockdown ends – but just wondered if anyone out there – with time on their hands and access to the actual registers – might be able to assist.
Thanking you in anticipation
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Is this the previous post you mention?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=729332.msg5740409#msg5740409
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Indeed it is CaroleW. Thanks for your interest.
I'm no further forward with a baptism for Joseph Wildsmith (unless something comes of today's post) - but I have subsequently found a 1687 baptism of a Jane Norborne (on FreeReg) at Harthill in West Yorkshire (not that many miles from Staveley). This sounds about the right time - but Jane's father is recorded as Godfrey - so not in accordance with the naming convention mentioned in spendlove's post.
So this might be the baptism of my 6x great grandmother - but at present, there's no real way of knowing.
Thanks again for your interest - any thoughts and/or suggestions you may have will be gratefully received.
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Do you have Joseph's will? It is possible it might hold clues https://www.staffsnameindexes.org.uk/default.aspx?Index=C&LastName=wildsmith&Part=0&YearFrom=1610&YearTo=1780&Place=&County=3&Gender=0&Occupation=
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Hi Designer Jeans,
Many thanks for your comment.
Yes, I have seen Joseph's will - it makes a good read, and it has given me some useful information - not least the confirmation that he had a son named Robert - who I had always thought was my 5x great grandfather, and I took Joseph's will as confirmation of this fact.
The will has, however, proved to be unhelpful - at least so far - in providing any information which might help in establishing who Joseph's parents were.
That said, the will has thrown up a puzzle I haven't yet solved. Just who was Joseph's "Daughter in Law Anne Otley", to whom he left One Guinea? I think his own daughter Anne married a Joseph Cam in April 1747 at St George, Mayfair - and strictly speaking, any daughter in law should have married one of Joseph's sons - and hence had the surname Wildsmith. Unless, I suppose (thinking out loud here), perhaps this Anne did marry a Wildsmith - was then widowed - and subsequently married an Otley. I sense a new line of research brewing! Unless anyone else can furnish an answer to this puzzle?
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Ah - I've just had a further thought. When Joseph married his second wife - Barbara - in 1724, she was a widow. I've never tried to check out her first marriage - but I suppose this "Anne Otley" could be one of Barbara's children by her first marriage - and regarded as a "daughter in law" by Joseph. Again, new research beckons!
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What a tricky family with a lot of loose ends. If this is correct the Staveley PRs have not survived -Derbyshire Record Office reference D 661 has deposited parish registers Bap 1558-1665, 1702-1978 Marr 1558-1665, 1702-1988 Bur 1558-1692, 1702-1991 Banns 1754-1813, 1940-1999 https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Staveley,_Derbyshire_Genealogy so the only record available are the BTs which you have already checked? Any additional info on the Joseph/Barbara marriage licence? Ancestry seems to indicate that the marriage licence was recorded in the Chesterfield PR, but that the marriage took place at Heath. I think in-law is quite a loose term to record a relationship of some kind and was certainly used for step children. It wouldn't hurt to investigate Barbara fully (birth, marriage, children, death of husband/did he leave a will, etc) and the same for Ann Otley.
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Snippet here Staveley "99* John SAXTON sojourner at Joseph WILDSMITH? of Woodthorp to John SMITH of Eastwood Notts. 1732" http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~spire/Yesterday/index.htm Probably too late to be of help, but free at the moment is Abstract of Will of John Wildsmith, Farmer of South Wingfield, Derbyshire. Proved in the Court of Lichfield. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7184196
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Hi again Designer Jeans – and thanks once more for your interest in this matter.
As you may have realised by the fact that my last post on Rootschat was back in 2016 – I do my family history research in fits and starts – and am just renewing my interest after a lengthy lay-off!
In the past – in 2015 – I visited the old Lichfield Records Office and was able to see and photograph a whole load of Wildsmith wills – including Joseph (Staveley 1766), Robert (Duffield 1804) and John (Sth Wingfield 1809). All have been very helpful (and all are now available on FindMyPast!) – but they haven’t helped me to crack the knotty problem of who Joseph’s parents were! Nor, indeed, have I made any meaningful progress on establishing who Jane Norborne’s parents were – although I did also photograph some Norborne wills back in 2015 – but no useful info leapt out at me.
Regarding the BTs – yes, I did look though them at Lichfield (and photographed some entries), and found a variety of Wildsmith baptisms – but drew a blank regarding a baptism of Joseph around 1690. As I’d said back in my 2016 post - https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=755150.0 - I wondered at the time whether the baptism of John in 1694 may have been wrongly transcribed from the original Registers – but I think I was possibly just grasping at straws.
It was the finding of the error regarding the transcription of “Alice, daughter of Robert Wildsmith….” – referred to in my first post in this thread – that got me thinking again about the BTs. Back in 2015 I didn’t photograph all the entries for 1689-1691 – and I don’t think the images are currently available anywhere on the net. I’m just hoping that as and when I can see them again – perhaps with fresh eyes – a possible baptism for Joseph leaps out at me!
Thanks for the “Yesterdays Journey” snippet about John Saxton. I had seen it before, but have not taken it any further. My immediate reaction is that this John was quite likely another of Barbara Saxton’s children from her first marriage – but again I’ve drawn a blank trying to track down any details of this first marriage.
That said, following your post I’ve quickly checked Familysearch, and have located a baptism of a John Saxton at Staveley in November 1719, father John Saxton and mother Barbara! Sounds as though I hadn’t been checking very hard in the past!
I’ll keep on looking – but as I said before, if anyone out there has any thoughts or suggestions as to how I might pursue this quest, I’d be more than happy to hear from you.
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Norborne is an awful name to research, but there are variations round and about Staveley. I can find Norborn and Norborne here https://calmview.derbyshire.gov.uk/CalmView/Overview.aspx and here https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LtwyAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=john+norborne+of+barlborough&source=bl&ots=i-F78C9Y0B&sig=ACfU3U18NTAgxfW2UbwgMWaFFR6Ff-zZ4A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjo3fent73pAhXKTBUIHdezBhgQ6AEwAHoECAYQAQ#v=snippet&q=norborne%20&f=false Also Norbarne (Barlborough), Noarburne (Dronfield), Norbonne (Staveley 1732), Nearburne (Dronfield) on family search. Norborn (Barlborough) trees on Ancestry and wills on Lichfield Wills Index inc Dorothy Norborn (Staveley) 1766.
Good luck!
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There are, indeed, a lot of Norborne name variations in the north Derbyshire area - and I've looked at several of the wills - but unfortunately none of them have thrown any real light on my Jane's parants.
I was quite excited in 2017 when I visited the Sheffield Archives and came across a transcript of notes from an old Bible in the possession of the late Joseph Allcroft of Netherthorpe (right next to Staveley) which bears the date 1630. It appears to have started off life as a Norborne family Bible - with the first entry apparently being a Godfrey Norburne, who married a Jane (surname unknown) on May 17th 1643. It looks as though Godfrey and Jane had several children: William, Elizabeth, Mary, Godfrey and Richard - all born/baptised in the period 1646 to 1659 (dates recorded in the Bible but I can't find them on any of the main Genealogy sites).
Particularly interesting was the reference to a Jane Norborne, daughter of William Norborne, who was born January 17th and baptized January 25th 1672. However, the transcript goes on to say (although not quite definitively!), that this Jane Norborne married a gentleman surnamed Allcroft (possibly John Allcroft) - and subsequently died in 1746 aged 74 years. The transcript also speculates that the Bible came into possession of the Allcroft family through this marriage.
So, although I had tracked down a Jane Norborne - who could have been the wife of my Joseph Wildsmith (albeit possibly a little old) - it appears she married someone else and lived until 1746. So, another brick wall!
Apologies for this bit of rambling on my part!
I'm still all ears, if anyone can suggest any different lines of research on this Joseph Wildsmith/Jane Norborne quest.
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Hello all! Sorry to barge in here, but my name is Paul Wildsmith - may be similar generations to some of you, but I don't recognise any names. Also researching Wildsmith history, my oldest fully verified relative is John Peter Wildsmith (b 1790), but believe the Joseph Wildsmith mentioned here will be his great grandfather. Very interested in making contact to explore/help together. I will start to use this forum as well, also on Ancestry. Hope to hear from anybody!!
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Just seeing these posts now - has there been any progress? My wife descends from Joseph Wildsmith and Jane Norborne via their daughter Ann. I have Jane being the daughter of Godfrey Norborne, christened July 3, 1687 in Barlborough (CP of Harthill), less than 4 miles from Staveley. To me, the proximity, birth date and name match supersede naming conventions that were common but by no means always practiced. That said, 1687 Jane had sisters named Mary and Elizabeth, names - admittedly common - also given to daughters of Joseph and Jane Wildsmith.
The closest fitting Joseph Wildsmith record I found was one baptized to a father of the same name in 1695 in Sheffield, some 14 miles from Staveley.
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Ron - your relation is david1701 - I have been in touch with him but don't think he looks here much. I'll email him to alert him to your post.
My family is from Sheffield, A Joseph Wildsmith who was a well known carpet manufacturer is my most distant known ancestor. The family was/is RC so records are difficult to find.
Paul
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Hi Ron - good to hear from you. From what you say, your wife and I must clearly be related, as I'm descended from the oldest of Joseph Wildsmith's children with his wife Jane Norborne - Robert, baptised 16th April 1714 in Staveley, Derbyshire. He is my 5x Gt Grandfather.
I agree with you that the Jane Norborne baptised in Harthill seems a very good contender for Joseph's wife - and you'll have seen from my earlier posts what else I've found out about this line. But I'm afraid this is where my research has hit a brick wall - not helped by the very poor condition/incomplete nature of the Staveley Parish Records. I would love to be able to show that Joseph was a child of Robert Wildsmith and Ann - who had a lot of children in Staveley in the late 1600s - but Joseph's baptism is very elusive to track down!
So, no further progress to date on this line - but I'm ever hopeful that I'll make a breakthrough one of these days! Anything further you can add to this line would be great
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hi David, I have not found anything about Joseph Wildsmith's parents beyond what I posted, that of a possible but somewhat improbable candidate.
As an aside, in one post you say "I think his own daughter Anne married a Joseph Cam in April 1747 at St George, Mayfair" but that is not correct. Anne Wildsmith married Joseph Mullins in 1743 and they had children together in the early 1750s before Joseph died in 1757. By the time of her father's 1762 will, her name was Anne Camms. A strong candidate is an Ann Camm buried in Chesterfield (less than 5 mi. from Staveley) on July 27, 1775 – and although there is no marriage record, a John Camm baptized four children (including an Elizabeth and an Ann) in Chesterfield between July 1759 and Nov. 1767. The names, location, and dates all line up nicely with Anne Wildsmith/Mullins re-marrying John Camm after her first husband's death.
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Hi Ron. Thanks for getting back so speedily – and for putting me right regarding Anne Wildsmith/Mullins! I think I had spotted that marriage some time ago, but as it wasn’t my direct line, I didn’t pursue it. It certainly sounds a lot more plausible than my “St George, Mayfair” thoughts. It’s a pity that there doesn’t seem to be any trace of Anne’s second marriage (at least not online), but I’ve made a note and will try and check it out as and when I next visit a likely Records Office.
Incidentally, one of the reasons I thought the St James marriage could be a possibility is that I’d previously found a Wildsmith connection between Staveley and London. In 1697 Robert Wildsmith, son of Robert of Staveley, Derbyshire was apprenticed in London to Sarah Rose of the Carmen’s Company. I also found a subsequent marriage between Robert Wildsmith - a Carman - and Christian Davis – both of St Mary Whitechapel. I think there’s an outside chance that this Robert was a brother to the Joseph who married Jane Norborne – but of course I have no proof of that – it’s just wishful thinking!
If you think we may have other areas of mutual interest, please send me a personal message, and perhaps we can exchange email addresses.