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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Monmouthshire => Topic started by: idyia14 on Sunday 17 May 20 08:47 BST (UK)
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I'd like to find out about the origins of Agnes Moore, born in 1881 in Aberbeeg, Monmouthshire, Wales.
The details that I know about her are as follows: On 26th August 1901 she married Cecil James Phoenix, in Penmaen, Monmouthshire. The couple had 2 children, Cyril John Phoenix born in 1905, and Irene Maud Phoenix, born in 1906. Cecil James Phoenix died in early 1909 and later that year Agnes married Rees Williams. They had 1 child (that I know of), Leo Rees Williams born in 1910. According to the 1939 register (when she was married to Rees Williams) her birth date was 10th August 1881. The 1911 census (with Rees Williams) has her birthplace as Aberbeeg.
I have also found an Agnes Moore in the 1881, 1891 and 1901 census records that appears to be her.
In 1901 she is a servant in the household of Hugh Herbert Price (birthplace is Aberbeeg.) There is a William Moore in the same household.
In 1891 she is classed as "adopted" in the household of George Benson (birthplace is again Aberbeeg.) There is also an Oliver Moore in the same household as well as a Charles Simmons aged 27.
In the 1881 census she is 2 years old in the household of Frederick Symmonds and she is again classed as "adopted" (birthplace is Bedwellty which I believe to be the district for Aberbeeg.) Interestingly the son of the household is Charles Symmonds, aged 17, which seems very similar to the Charles Simons in the 1891 census, although the birthplace details do not match up.
Does anyone know anything that would help me clarify the origins of Agnes Moore?
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Possibly this birth?
June qtr 1879
Newport Registration District vol 11a, page 226
Moore, Agnes
Or maybe this one?
March atr 1877
Pontypridd Registration District col 11a, page 381
Moore, Agnes
From the GRO Index site:
MOORE, AGNES (Mother's Maiden Name:) NICHOLAS
GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 381
MOORE, AGNES WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1879 J Quarter in NEWPORT Volume 11A Page 226
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Yes, I had found those. However, without actually seeing the details of these births (particularly date of birth) I couldn't reconcile either with the 1939 register which gives her birth date as 10th Aug 1881. She may not have admitted her age to her husband, Rees Williams, so the year might have been recorded incorrectly but I'd need to see the actual birth entry to convince myself on either one.
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If the date of birth on the 1939 register is correct (and frequently they are wrong!), then it doesn't fit with the 1881 census?
There are no other births in the area for Agnes Moore.
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do you have either of her marriage certificates? An online transcription of her first marriage gives her father as William Moore, engineman and that fits with the man in the Ivorites Inn in 1901.
Possible burial for him in Llanhilleth 20 July 1907 age 73 address Pant Du Rd, Aberbeeg
1881 census Bottom of Pen y Vane Incline, Mynyddislwyn
William Moore head widower 48 stationary engine driver b. Somersetshire
Margaret Ann dau 19 housekeeper b. Bedwellty
Emily dau 14 b. Bedwellty
Addie dau 12 b. Bedwellty
William Enoch son 10 b. Bedwellty
Sarah Jane dau 8 b. Bedwellty
Alice Louisa dau 4 b. Glam, George Inn
Abraham father widower 74 annuitant b. Somersetshire
birth reg for William Enoch Moore dec qtr 1871 Bedwellty vol 11a pg 125 mmn Williams
Sarah Jane march qtr 1874 mmn Williams
possible death reg for William's wife, same quarter as birth of Agnes
Margaret Moore 39 june qtr 1878 Newport vol 11a pg 146
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burials in Llanhilleth
6 Jan 1890 Alice Louisa Maud Moore 13 Aberbeeg
26 March 1893 William Enoch Moore age 20 of Ivorites Inn Aberbeeg
Margaret Ann Moore married Henry James 30 July 1883 in Nantyglo, father noted as William, engineman
marriage transcribed as Moon
27 May 1861 St George, Tredegar
William Moor 28 bach engineer Cwmsyfiog father Abraham Moor, engineer
Margaret Williams 22 spinster Cwmsyfiog father William Williams (deceased)
witnesses Richard Price & Mary Lewis, all marked.
1851 census 4 Patch, Tredegar HO107/2448 folio 158 pg 29
Abraham Moore head mar 41 engineer b. Somerset, Kilmersdon
Mary wife 37 b. Kilmersdon
William son 19 engineer b. Kilmersdon
Enoch son 17 b. Kilmersdon
Sarah dau 13 b. Mon, Trevethin
Lydia dau 9 b. Bedwellty
Zebedee son 7 b. Bedwellty
Abraham son 5 b. Bedwellty
Mary dau 3 b. Bedwellty
John son 1 b. Bedwellty
likely marriage 24 Dec 1831 in Kilmersdon Abraham Moore & Mary Padfield, sojourner, witnesses John Padfield & William Milward.
map for 1851 address
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ph2/
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death of sister Emily
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3673285/3673288/17/
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Thanks for all of this! Unfortunately I do not have copies of Agnes' marriages and the transcript that I have of her 1901 marriage to Cecil James Phoenix did not include her father's name and profession. Following the family through the records you have found because of those facts, it makes perfect sense. It certainly appears that Agnes' mother died around her birth. It would also fit with the 1881 census record that I found, with Agnes Moor being adopted by a couple from Somerset. I guess we'll never know the true circumstances but I would imagine that William Moore could have farmed out the baby girl who brought about his wife's death.
I have found GRO index records for all of the other children, Margaret Ann (1862), Emily (1866), Adelaide (1869) and Alice (1876), all of them having mmn of Williams, too, which fits with the 1879 birth registration of Agnes Moore in Newport.
It would certainly seem that the date of birth on the 1939 Register was incorrect, in the year at least. The 1911 census also implies that she was born in 1881 but I wonder if that was because she was actually older than her new husband, Rees Williams? He was born in 1880.
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The image of the 1901 marriage is on FindMyPast and her age is listed as 22 which fits in with the earlier birth.
Kay
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Thanks for that! I wonder if it changed by the time she remarried! I don't have a copy of either marriage.
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Sadly I can see that a copy of the later cert online. My own grandmother deducted 5 years from her age each time she married ;D
Kay
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indeed not unknown for a woman to lose a few years if marrying a younger man! Also not unknown for date of birth on 1939 register to be correct for day and month but year to be out. Perhaps worth getting a copy of one of the marriage certs when the present situation improves.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
:)
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Has anyone managed to find the 1871 census record(s) for William Moore, Margaret Moore and the children? I can't seem to locate anything.
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no, I couldn't spot them. Annoying as it would give a place of birth for Margaret.
:-\
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Can anybody look at the originals of the census records? I have found a transcript of an 1871 census record in Bedwellty for Margaret Moor, 29, born in Tredegar with 2 children, Mary E. Moor age 4 and William Moor aged 0. The age for William fits with the age of William Enoch on the 1881 census record for William Moore (snr) and family. I have also found a GRO index for Mary Moore in Bedwellty, Dec Q 1863, Vol 11A, Page 110 with mmn of Williams. I wonder if the age for Mary E. on the 1871 census might actually be 7? Clutching at straws here, but a birthplace for Margaret Williams would really help. There are just so many Margaret Williams with a father of William Williams in the right time-frame!
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I looked at that Margaret as well but I think William Enoch Moore b 1871 was born in the Dec Qtr so wouldn't have on the 1871 census. I attach and extract of the census
Kay
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Thanks, it was worth a try! Definitely a 4 in any case.
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Looking at Margaret from a different angle Osprey found the marriage of Margaret and William below in May 1861 shortly after the 1861 census with their addresses listed as Cymsyflog and the church was St George Tredegar in the parish of Bedwelty https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MON/Bedwellty Map of the area https://maps.nls.uk/view/102182736#zoom=4&lat=4011&lon=3780&layers=BT
marriage transcribed as Moon
27 May 1861 St George, Tredegar
William Moor 28 bach engineer Cwmsyfiog father Abraham Moor, engineer
Margaret Williams 22 spinster Cwmsyfiog father William Williams (deceased)
witnesses Richard Price & Mary Lewis, all marked.
Looking at the 1861 census I only found one unmarried Margaret Williams of the right age in the parish as below :-\ Living at Cwmsyvuke?? Bedwellty - next door to the Tredegar Arms, New Tredegar
John Jeremiah Widower 37 Coal Agent
Hannah Lewis Visitor Married 35 1826
Margaret Williams Visitor Unmarried 21 Dressmaker Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wales
Benjamin Jeremiah Visitor 14
Rachel Lewis Daughter 4
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I went looking for a possible birth. None in Bedwellty specifically and too many in the surrounding areas!
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I did find a poss baptism but Williams is such a common name :-\
Margaret Williams
Baptism date 28 Jul 1839
Bedwellty
Father William - Quarryman
Mother Margaret
Their address was Pontabarbagarad????
There is this family in 1851 living in the hamlet of Ishlawrcoed Bedwelty - All born of Bedwelty
William Williams 52 Quarryman
Ann Williams Daughter 22
Margret Williams Daughter 11
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Interesting. A possibility, as Margaret's father's name on her marriage was William Williams so it does tie in. But, as you say, all very common names at that time.
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Their address was Pontabarbagarad????
Kay - I think this is likely to be Pontaberbargoed.
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Thanks - I tried various versions but sadly am not local ;D
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Bedwellty was in Abergavenny Reg Dist in 1839. I note that 4 Margaret Williams' were registered in the first 3 Quarters.
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....and no way of telling if the father was named William Williams!
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1841 census for same family
Aberbargoed HO107/750/6 folio 72 pg 6
William Williams 40 publican
Margaret 35
Anne 12
John 10
Margaret 2
all born in county
Possible birth reg Margaret Williams sept qtr 1839 Abergavenny vol 26 pg 27 mmn Williams
Burial Bedwellty 30 Dec 1844 for Margaret Williams aged 42 of Pontaberbargoed
Marriage in Bedwellty 13 May 1826 for William Williams bach quarryman and Margaret Williams spinster, witnesses Edward William & Gwenllian Williams, only William signed.
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This might be the burial of William Williams
William Williams Age 55 of Pontaberbargoed
Burial 02 Oct 1852 Bedwellty
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My thanks to all who have contributed here! I now have a much better idea of where the Moore family originated.