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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: M_ONeill on Tuesday 19 May 20 00:18 BST (UK)
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Looking to see if there's any local historians who could help me with what's proving to be a very tricky bit of research. This might be a bit of a long post, so buckle up! ;D
I'm trying to see if I can find a link between two branches of O'Neills living in the triangle formed between Portglenone, Bellaghy and Maghera in the 19th century. I've been referring to them as the 'Stafford' O'Neills as they seem to be linked by the seemingly traditional use of 'Stafford' as a given name in their families, (first or second name).
My theory is that they may be linked to the Stafford-Downings of the same area, but I've yet to find firm evidence. There are a small handful of other local families that share this Stafford naming, such as the catholic Dinnens, McCanns and (some) McLaughlins, and the protestant McQuillans. By 1901 the Downings themselves seem to be fairly evenly split between catholic and church of Ireland.
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One branch of Stafford O'Neills, the one directly linked to my own tree, lived in and around the townland of Rocktown, between Bellaghy and Knockloughrim. This is the family of my 3x great grandmother Ellen O'Neill (b. c.1820-1827, d. 1908). She married a John Carmichael, marriage date unknown, and had at least four children that I have found: William James, Thomas, Francis Stafford and my 2x great grandmother Ellen Carmichael.
Their immediate neighbours in the townland were the family of one Stafford O'Neill (b. c.1830, d. 1894). He married a Sarah McErlane in Greenlough up near Portglenone on 12th August 1855. Stafford and Sarah had 8 children with 6 surviving (as counted in the 1911 census). The 7 I've found in the record are Henry, John Stafford (died age 6), Francis, James, Stafford, John and Mary Anne (twins). Stafford senior first appears in the Rocktown record in 1862, taking over the lease of 16 acres of land from a James O'Neill, exact relation unknown.
I have no firm evidence for this, but my hunch is that Ellen and Stafford O'Neill may be siblings (or at the least cousins). Apart from moving to live on neighbouring farms at the same time, there are other confirmed links between the two families; Stafford O'Neill junior was one of the signed witnesses at William James Carmichael's marriage to a Catherine Kelly in 1898. The family also has some potential links to other Stafford families in Dreenan. A Stafford McCann is a sponsor to Stafford and Sarah's son James Stafford O'Neill's 1862 baptism. The Dinnen family of Dreenan also has a possible link to the O'Neill / Carmichael family; in the first Griffiths valuation a John Carmichael is renting some land to both a John and Stafford Dinnen. However, as of yet this is only a possibility, I have no firm evidence that this is the same John that married Ellen O'Neill.
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The other branch of Stafford O'Neills is from Ballymacpeake Lower, which is further North from Rocktown, near Clady. This branch is being researched by a New Zealand based researcher who has done an amazingly comprehensive rundown of his research on his personal website here (http://www.pko-genealogy.id.au/). The two key figures are a John O'Neill (b. c.1820 - d. 1900) and his (presumed) brother Stafford O'Neill (b.1825 - 1883).
John O'Neill first married a Bridget Mulholland in Greenlough in 1851. She was apparently a cousin of his (listed as 'tercio', related in the third degree). She died in 1859 at the age of 26. John remarried, apparently to another third-degree cousin, an Alice ('Ally') O'Neill in Greenlough in 1861. The Ballymacpeake Stafford also needed dispensation to marry a cousin, A Cecily or Cecilia O'Neill in 1853, also in Greenlough.
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Other Rootschatters, especially dukewm, have done a lot of great work on the local Downing families as can be seen in threads such as this one (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=443356.0), and this one (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=604673.18) and this one (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=425191.0). In one, he mentions information he got from a local Catholic priest who was connected to the Stafford Downings of Dreenan. This quote from dukewm covers the key piece of info for me (emphasis mine):
I am working on possible connections between various DOWNING branches headed by
1. (Capt.) Adam, b.1666
2. Alexander, b. 1858
3. Stafford, b. 1734 ?
The Stafford mentioned above (supposedly) had a son named Stafford who married
Rose Mulholland (all dates unknown). They had four (4) daughters
1. Mary, b. abt 1785 ; m. John Downing (possibly a relative)
2. Ester, b. abt 1789 ; m. James O'Neill
3. Elizabeth, b. ? ; m. Michael Dinnen
4. Elinor, b. ? ; d. unmarried
Now obviously those three names are of interest to me, but I can't seem to find any concrete links. A lot of these Stafford families seem to be marrying within a fairly small pool of names (even excluding the direct cousin marriages). A Stafford Dinnen who married a Bridget O'Neill in Moyagall in 1872 (aged 60 and a widower!) was the son of a Michael Dinnen so he may be the child of Michael Downing and Elizabeth Downing. The witnesses to this marriage were a James and Hannah O'Neill.
So as you can see, it's a bit of a tangle! I have a feeling the Church of Ireland marriages of the daughters of Stafford Downing and Rose Mulholland may be the key, but no matter how I turn it I've yet to make it fit with the rest of my evidence.
Does anyone have any local knowledge of this area or suggestions for evidence I might have missed? All help gratefully appreciated! :)
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Hey there I live in this local area and I could ask my aunt if she has any knowledge of this.
Have you checked the greenlough graveyard for burials, sometimes this can help and also irishgenealogy.ie which publishes free BMD before 1921 for NI.
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Hi Ocian! Thanks for the offer of help, any and all local knowledge would be appreciated!
I've been able to comfirm a link between the Stafford-Dinnens and my tree, at least by land if not by blood (though I still suspect the latter to also be true).
I've confirmed that the small plot of land (just under 4 acres) being rented jointly to John and Stafford Dinnen in Dreenan was indeed leased out by my 3x great grandfather John Carmichael. I've confirmed this by looking through the griffiths revision books - the leasehold for this land later transfers in part to Ellen Carmichael, John's wife, and in part to William James Carmichael, his eldest son. The majority of the Dinnens' farmland is rented directly from the then-joint owners of the Bellaghy estate, so I wonder about this curious little addition from John Carmichael.
I found Stafford Dinnen's full registry entry for his second marriage in 1872. Bridget O'Neill does indeed seem to be a cousin and his parents were listed as Michael Dinnen and Elizabeth Downing, confirming him as the grandson of the Stafford Downing listed in the pedigree quoted previously. Bridget's parents were a Bernard O'Neill and a Martha Cassidy.
As an aside, there seems to have been an inquiry into Michael Dinnen's death which gave verdict in 1841; that while being 'a little intoxicated' he had fallen into a ditch and 'drowned or suffocated'. Sure enough, Michael Dinnen's burial is listed in the local parish records for 1839.
So still no hard proof, but a strengthening body of circumstantial evidence tying these various Stafford families to the Stafford-Downings listed above (shared naming patterns, land ties). My hunch is that my tree links in with James O'Neill and Esther Downing, but I simply can't make the timing of the generations fit for both branches of Stafford O'Neills (The Rocktown/Killard and the Ballymacpeake).
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I think I've narrowed down the James and Hannah O'Neill who were listed as witnesses on the civil record of Stafford Dinnen's and Bridget O'Neill's wedding in 1872.
James O'Neill was born c.1813 (according to death record) and died in 1884 in Dreenan. He was a 'Farmer and Grocer' according to his will. His wife Hannah was born c. 1824. An Arthur Brannon was the informant on her death record. A Sarah Brannon was the second witness on the parish record of Stafford Dinnen's marriage, so there may be some link to the Brannon family, possibly friends, neighbours or even relations.
A 'James O'Neill (Grocer)' is listed as one of the donors towards the construction of Lavey Chapel, there his residence is given as 'Dreenan Lower'.
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Okay, I think I'm officially stuck on this branch of my tree. :-\
While I'm fairly certain that my line does descend from Esther Downing and James O'Neill, I have no idea how to confirm how they fit into my tree. I can't seem to figure out how the various 'Stafford' O'Neills descend from them. The lack of catholic records prior to 1830 is a real killer.
It's very frustrating. I'm not sure where I go from here.
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My ggg grandfather Hugh O'Neill 1898 Rocktown moved to Dungiven after his clandestine marriage to Mary Irons in August 1826 St. Patrick's R.C. Church Dungiven..I have the same problem I can not make any links to other O'Neill Rocktown family due to the lack of records and very little progress on DNA O'Neill cousins
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Hi Pammy,
Nice to hear from you! I believe you may have already been corresponding with one of my other cousins via facebook - he let me know about your potential connection to the Rocktown O'Neills.
I'm assuming, based on some of your other Rootschat posts that this (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1883/06379/4830955.pdf) is the death record for your ancestor Hugh - a grocer who died on the 23rd March 1883 in Dungiven, his son John as the informant. His age is listed as 84 which would place his date of birth at around ~1799.
I think I've found your Hugh in the Griffiths Valuation books for Dungiven Town; he's present in the first valuation listing in 1858 renting 'House, Off(ices), Yard and Garden' from a William Hamilton. As this is the first valuation we can't be sure when he first moved in. He seems to continue as the tenant until 1872 when his name is crossed out and replaced by a Francis Devine, who is in turn replaced by a Patrick Keaney in 1880.
Assuming this is your Hugh, it's not clear what happens to him between leaving this property in 1872 and his death in 1883 - but as he would have been ~73 in 1872 it's possible that he could have moved out due to old age.
Do you know the names of any other children of Hugh O'Neill and Mary Irons? It might give some idea of avenues to look in the other branches of Rocktown O'Neills. Looking at the lists of Baptisms (http://www.laveyparish.com/laveybaptisms.html) for Lavey there is one later Hugh O'Neill born on the 25th of June 1852.
This *may* be the same Hugh listed as being baptised in the parish of Ballinascreen (sometimes given as 'Ballinascreen and Dungiven') to a Patrick O'Neill and a Mary Quigley, but I've yet to confirm it - the date does at least match. The parents' residence is listed as Desert (or Disert, a townland to the southwest of Draperstown), so I'm not sure why it would appear in the list of Lavey baptisms. There is a later entry for a Hugh O'Neill in the list of donors (http://www.laveyparish.com/chapeldonations1870s.html) to the Lavey church (1860s and 1870s) living in Dungiven, who I think may be the Hugh baptised in Ballinascreen. Obviously he's too young to be your Hugh, but I'm wondering if there might be any link to the name. A long shot, but worth investigating - if only to rule it out!
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Hiya, I am an O'Neill cousin too, descended from Hugh and Mary Irons O'Neill of Ardinarif , Dungiven and Rocktown. Just wondering if any of you who are linked to the Stafford O'Neills have done their DNA? I am through the female line and have done my MT dna too though that goes through our Kealey and Campbell line. It would be nice to see if any of us match up. We have no knowledge of any other siblings for John unfortunately though I think he must have had them as my mother talked of some of the aunies and uncles in America - one auntie in particular who was a lion tamer with a Circus perhaps in California. My mother and granny usedto visit Rothsay on the Isle of Bute a lot and I believe that may have been to O'Neill family. Also there is a Mary O'Neill Bradley who was the godmother of my eldest brother who is believed to have been an O'Neill somehow too, possibly a cousin through one of John's siblings.
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Hi Annie, great to hear from you, there seems to be a small but growing group of us now!
I haven't done my DNA but the cousin I mentioned before has done Ancestry DNA - it has suggested to him one match in this line, a lady living in Austrailia, a 6th to 8th cousin. He has sent her a message but as of yet no response. From what Ancestry showed us of her tree she seemed to have some connection to the Dawson family - another well known local family (after whom the nearby town 'Castledawson' is named). The Dawsons were known to have married into the Downing family of Rowesgift.
I'm also in contact with some O'Neills in New Zealand who descend from the 'Ballymacpeake' Stafford-O'Neills. I'm not sure if they have done their DNA. If you like, I can get in touch with them and ask if they'd be happy to share contact details with you!
Now that I look through some of this thread again, I find myself wondering if it's pure co-incidence that both James O'Neill in Dreenan and Hugh O'Neill in Dungiven were grocers. I also wonder about religion being the cause of Hugh and Mary Irons' clandestine marriage. Other O'Neills in Rocktown and Dreenan seem to have married women from Protestant families yet stayed put - again, I feel like there's a story there yet to be uncovered.
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Hello M
Thank you for your informative reply, you certainly have our Dungiven O'Neill's well researched and you have given me great inspiration to move forward as to where the family could have ended up after Hugh O'Neill 1899 moved to Dungiven..
Hugh O'Neill may have move out of his rented home on Main Street Dungiven 1872 to move in with his son John and lived with him until he died in 1880 ..It stated on Hugh's death record that his son John was present at his death..Interestingly you mention Patrick Kealey taking over Hugh's old home place, which may have been Hugh's daughter in laws father who was also Patrick Kealey..The old place still remains the in O'Neill name to this day on Main Street, Dungiven..We had until recently owned 2 houses beside other on Main Street which may have been the old Kealey home inherited by my gg grandmother Catherine Kealey and handed to one of her sons.
On to Mary Irons Ardnariff, Bovevagh/Boveva, Kennaught, and how she may have met my ggg grandfather Hugh O'Neill Rocktown..If you check out records for Ardnariff you will find several O'Neill families living there in the early 1800s with lots of different variations of the spelling O'Neill..It might have been Hugh already had O'Neill family in the Bovevagh area and met Mary Irons...I have found no other children born to Hugh and Mary other than John in fact I can find nothing else regarding Mary Irons either so I assume Mary died very young ..Hugh's grandson Hugh born 1867 referred to his grandfather in his will and left money for a headstone to be erected on his grave but no mention of his grandmother Mary so possibly he never knew her ..
Ballinascreen and Dungiven records were held by a R.C priest who was moved from Dungiven to Ballinascreen and used the same book to make his records but he does give good accounts of the address for each record he made ..There is no doubt Hugh O'Neill may have had O'Neill relatives in Draperstown I have came across them in my research but there was no mention of them by my grandfather or his brothers they only talked about the Rocktown connection ..
In a general O'Neill search on Irish Genealogy ie I have discovered several O'Neill bachelors and spinstors from Bovevagh that died of old age in the workhouse in Limavady..
So after reading your post you have me thinking that possibly the O'Neill Bovevagh connection just died out ..My grandfather had 14 O'Neills so the name lives on through Hugh from Rocktown in Dungiven
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I'd be very interested in connecting with anyone from this line that has done their DNA for sure thanks.
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Hi Anne, I've sent you a PM with my cousin's email address. He says you're more than welcome to get in touch. :)
I've been continuing to dig into the records to see if I can find any confirmation of Hugh's connection with Rocktown, but I've yet to come up with something concrete. There is another Hugh O'Neill in Ballymacpeake, born in 1866 to Stafford (possibly 'James Stafford') O'Neill and Cecily O'Neill who were married in 1853; Hugh later emigrated to New York State in and married a Johanna Dillon in 1904. Stafford was born c.1825, parents currently unknown.
I'm trying to figure out where Hugh could fit into the O'Neills of Rocktown/Dreenan/Ballymacpeake - and although there aren't very many records prior to 1830, I can't help but feel there's enough seemingly-related O'Neills here that some kind of connection *may* be possible to determine.
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It is close enough to Rocktown. I was just looking again at the 1831 census there and the Lavey church records but they do not help that much!
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I suppose it depends whether Hugh continued to have an active link with the Rocktown O'Neills after his marriage to Mary Irons. If not, he might not appear in the 1830's-onwards records, but if he *did* then his name might make an appearance, for example as a sponsor for baptisms or a witness for marriages.
One tip based on my own research; when looking at early church records for the area, it's worth searching for 'Termoneeny' which was another, older name for the parish. 'Greenlough' is another place it's worth searching in - it's another nearby parish and prior to the construction of the R.C. church at Lavey it seems a lot of local O'Neills were baptised/married there, especially the Ballymacpeake Stafford-O'Neills.
Regarding Hugh's son John, what do you know about him? Who did he marry and where? It might be worth trying to widen the search and pick up on other details. Same with Mary Irons, where did she come from? Bear in mind that if she wasn't a Catholic prior to her marriage, she may be recorded in church records, dependent on her prior denomination.
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John married Catherine Kealey in St Patrick's Dungiven and there are plenty of records around for the family and DNA connections too. He was a grocer/butcher too with a home on Main street, Dungiven as well as a farmer. If you send me your email I'll add you to my family tree at ancestry.
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Email address Sent!
It might be worth checking to see if the Kealey's also have some kind of Rocktown connection - the O'Neills in and around the area seem to have married within a fairly small, yet very close knit network of families. Of course, if Hugh had effectively broken away from the family that might not hold true for his children in Dungiven.
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Our Kealeys of Killerfaith may have some connection to the McGraths/McGras who are family to the McAnally/Campbells of Tyrone/Antrm. Roseanne Campbell Kealey came from Tyrone and seems to have O'Neill family over there too, with an O'Neill birth sponsor, so it may well be that those O'Neills are the same as the Rocktown ones or, as is equally likely, we have more than one set of O'Neills in our Ancestry. We have DNA O'Neill cousins that seem to come from Wexford (that are dna linked to 4 of us descendants of John and Catherine Kealey O'Neill). Have a look at my tree. I have certainly looked at the possibility that all of these families have Bellaghy/Maghera/Magherafelt/Cookstown/Coalisland and even Rocktown connections. Quite a web!!
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I've taken a quick, initial look over your ancestry tree, Anne - I notice you have Hugh O'Neill's parents listed as a Hugh O'Neill and an unknown Mulholland. I'd be interested to know where you got that link from as Mulholland is a very important name in the Rocktown/Dreenan area, and the family was very heavily intermarried with the O'Neills of the area.
Esther Downing, who I believe may be (but have not yet confirmed as) an ancestor of mine was the daughter of a Stafford Downing and a Rose Mulholland. Esther then supposedly married a James O'Neill.
John O'Neill of Ballymacpeake (born c.1820) married his first wife Bridget 'Biddy' Mulholland of the townland of Eden in 1851. They required canonical dispensation as they were related to the third degree which I believe made them second cousins - implying a prior marriage between their ancestors.
I had thought Stafford and Rose might have been the link (given the prevalence of 'Stafford' as a family name among John's siblings and children) but if there was another marriage (such as this elder Hugh) then it might give cause for reappraisal.
The Mulhollands were one of the two major landowning families in the local area, second only to the Downings. The Ballymacpeake O'Neills continued to be heavily intermarried with them - even going so far as to continuing to marry Mulholland cousins after emigrating to New Zealand.
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Another thing I noticed - one of the sponsors for John O'Neill's birth in 1826 is a Mulholland. First name is tough to make out, but I think it's Dennis. The same name appears as a sponsor for an Ann Given - daughter of a John Given and Bridget Mulholland of Cashel. Might be worth looking into to see if he's a relation of some kind.
Secondly, I notice that on John O'Neill and Catherine Kealey's marriage record, they appear to have recieved dispensation to marry - so it's possible that they were also perhaps related to some degree. I can't quite make out the handwriting in the 'impediments' entry but there's something written in there. Might be worth posting in the handwriting deciphering forum on here!
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Thanks for your message! Yes I did spot the sponsors (Margey and Mulholland) a few years back when I first started researching them and that is who the Mulholland in the tree references, though no hints have appeared on Ancestry to help me substantiate that! The Denis Mulholland had a son George and I put him in the tree as well to see if that would kickstart any thru lines but to date it has not. I may change it to Margey!
As you will have noticed every single entry on that wedding record had dispensations (usually re: Banns). Where they were cousins of any degree it is usually noted (and there are examples of that on the records). Frustratingly there is no indication on Catherine and John's wedding record (as there is on the one above them) of them being cousins at all.
I have checked my DNA with Paul's and there is no indication that we are related at all or that he is related to any of my other Rocktown O'Neills. Interestingly though he does seem to have a connection with a number of my McCloskey cousins over that side of Derry and there are some O'Neills in that line as well that he may be related to. Thanks again.
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Giving this thread a bit of a bump, as I've been back to chipping away at this part of the tree recently.
I've been combing through the local records trying to uncover as many links between the 'Stafford' families as I can. It's something of a tangled web, but it seems clear to me that a group of these families, predominantly centred in and around Dreenan, seem to have very close relationships with each other. However, it is not clear how they relate to the group of families based up near Ballymacpeake, such as the other branch of Stafford O'Neills. I'm now reconsidering my idea that the two branches both diverge from the same point, the marriage of James and Esther Downing. I'm beginning to think that they may be more distant cousins than first thought, and that the O'Neill/Downing connection goes back to a much earlier point.
I'll write out some of my findings regarding the connections Dreenan group of 'Stafford' families:
In 1837 there is a marriage between a Michael McTammeny and a Mary O'Neill, with the witnesses as a Stafford and Arthur O'Neill. Given the date, this Stafford O'Neill may be too old to be either the one in Rocktown or the one in Ballymacpeake and may be an entirely different man.
In 1839 there is a Dreenan baptism for a Peter McCann, son of Stafford McCann and Mary McTammeny. The eye is obviously drawn to a potential link between Mary and the Michael listed above. In another 'Stafford' Link, one of the sponsors of this baptism is Michael Dinnen. I believe this is likely the same man mentioned previously in this thread; the husband of Elizabeth Downing. He died in 1841, the same year as the inquest, not 1839 as I previously thought.
There are actually (at least) two Stafford McCanns in Dreenan, the latter of which marries a Sarah Cushley (sometimes written 'Costello') in 1866 in Moyagall. His father is given as a Patrick McCann. The elder Stafford did have a child named Peter (baptised 1838), but he'd have been more of a contemporary with the younger Stafford in age. The witnesses to Stafford and Sarah's wedding were James and Hannah O'Neill of Rocktown. I believe this James O'Neill was the grocer mentioned previously.
(Continued below...)
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James and Hannah were also the witnesses at Stafford Dinnen's marriage at the age of 60 to the 42 year old Bridget O'Neill. They were both widowed and were both some degree of cousins. Stafford was the son of Michael Dinnen and Elizabeth Downing, Bridget was the daughter of a Bernard O'Neill and a Martha Cassidy. This Stafford Dinnen and a John Dinnen (possibly a brother) were also renting a parcel of land from my 3x great grandfather John Carmichael, husband of Ellen O'Neill, beginning sometime prior to the first Griffiths valuation in 1859. I've yet to figure out exactly what this land relationship was, but it seems to tie my tree (as well as the other Rocktown O'Neills) fairly clearly into what seems like some kind of kinship network stretching north into Dreenan.
(It's at this point I feel like I need a cork board, pins and a *lot* of string...)
Going back to the McCanns, another Stafford McCann appears as a sponsor on the 1862 baptism of John Stafford O'Neill, son of Stafford O'Neill and Sarah McErlane. Stafford and Sarah were married in 1855 in Greenlough and I have a strong feeling that this Stafford was a sibling of my 3x great grandmother Ellen O'Neill due to how close their two families were - even going so far to move their families to neighbouring farms in the southernmost part of Rocktown.
The McErlane connection is another interesting one. There is a Stafford James McLoughlin registered in Innishrush in 1865, the son of a Henry McLoughlin and a Mary McErlane (whose name is sometimes written as Maria or even Mavina). The two were married in Ballyscullion in 1857. It is not clear how they link into the other Stafford families - I suspect there may be a connection to Sarah McErlane's family, but I've yet to find any hard evidence. There is also a Theresa McErlane of Cullear who marries a Henry Downey of Drumard in 1888. She may also be related into this same McErlane family, but as yet evidence is thin and it remains a theory. It is interesting to note that the Ballymacpeake Stafford O'Neills also intermarry with McErlanes - one of the few points of overlap between the two branches.
There is an 1878 Dreenan baptism of a Francis McNally, parents a John McNally and Bridget Henry. The sponsors are a James Stafford Dinnen and an Elizabeth Dinnen. I'm not sure of the specifics, but it seems fairly clear that John S. and Elizabeth belong to the family line beginning with Michael Dinnen.
Finally, there's a registered birth of a Stafford Kane in 1872, son of a Thomas Kane, schoolmaster, and an Elizabeth Downing of Dreenan. The couple were married in the Maghera parish church in a CoI ceremony in 1866. Elizabeth's father is listed as a Stafford Downing.
So as you can see, a very tangled web! I'm not sure exactly where to go from here, but I feel like there are enough overlapping families here that there should be at least some evidence that I'm yet to uncover.
I'd be especially interested to hear from other experts on the local Downing family who might be able to shed some light on the links between these families!
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I think I've narrowed down the James and Hannah O'Neill who were listed as witnesses on the civil record of Stafford Dinnen's and Bridget O'Neill's wedding in 1872.
James O'Neill was born c.1813 (according to death record) and died in 1884 in Dreenan. He was a 'Farmer and Grocer' according to his will. His wife Hannah was born c. 1824. An Arthur Brannon was the informant on her death record. A Sarah Brannon was the second witness on the parish record of Stafford Dinnen's marriage, so there may be some link to the Brannon family, possibly friends, neighbours or even relations.
If you look at the family tree I just sent you, it appears that James O'Neill (Jr or II), was likely a son of James O'Neill who married Esther Downing. I know factually that Esther was baptized on 4 Apr 1789 at St. Lurach's, Maghera by Alexander Clotworthy Downing, and that she was the daughter of Stafford Downing of Dreenan.
Stafford Dinnen, b. c.1812, was the son of Michael Dinnen and Elizabeth Downing, daughter of Stafford Downing of Dreenan.
It would be speculation, but HIGHLY probable, that James O'Neill (Jr.) and Stafford Dinnen were first cousins, sharing Stafford Downing and Rose Mulholland (a set of grandparents) through their respective mothers.
A case where a "picture" (the tree) is worth a thousand words.
A 'James O'Neill (Grocer)' is listed as one of the donors towards the construction of Lavey Chapel, there his residence is given as 'Dreenan Lower'.
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Hi Rick,
First of all, thank you so much for the family tree! It's very comprehensive and I'm sure it's going to be massively helpful in my own research.
If James Jr. is indeed the son of James and Esther, then that'd be something of a breakthrough - I'd be one step closer to proving a link between my confirmed ancestor, Ellen O'Neill and the Downing line through Esther. I'm curious as to whether you've come across any particular records showing James Jr to be James the elder's son, or whether it's just an educated guess on your part, given the dates? (Forgive me if this information is already included in the tree itself, I'm still in the process of reviewing!)
If we assume for the moment that James Jr is indeed James and Esther's son, it raises the question of how exactly Ellen O'Neill fits into the family line. One current theory I have is that her eldest son, William James Carmichael, may be named for his two grandfathers. It's highly likely that his paternal grandfather was a William Carmichael of Drumard, making a James O'Neill a possibility for the maternal line.
Ellen's year of birth is somewhat indistinct; the 1901 census gives 1827 but her death record lists 1820. The earlier date would place her in roughly the right age bracket to be a sibling of James Jr. It may also be relevant that Esther Downing had a sibling named Elinor. If Ellen was Esther's daughter It's possible that she was named for her aunt.
I wonder also about Stafford O'Neill who married Sarah McErlane. I have long thought him as a potential sibling of Ellen, but given that his death record lists his birth year as c1830, he is on the cusp of being a possible son of James Junior, depending how accurate the dates are. I still think on the balance of probabilities he is more likely to be a sibling of Ellen, but there is perhaps a question mark there.
Well, I can't complain about not having enough leads on this particular branch! Thanks once again, Rick, this is going to be a huge help!
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An interesting little addendum: I've just found the actual text of James O'Neill's will (previously I had only seen the shorter, index entry).
Curiously, James O'Neill's name is always given followed with the name 'Henry' in brackets every time it appears (see attachment). I'm not sure precisely what that means; whether it's a nickame or whether it evinces any link to the local Henry family. The O'Neills of Rocktown seem to rent land almost exclusively from a Henry family, specifically the line of a Captain Robert Henry. May be pure coincidence, but it'd be interesting to know why Henry was appended to James' name.
In the body of the will, James leaves everything to his wife Hannah, and recommends to her that after her death she leave the greater part to 'my niece Rose Mallon'. This suggests to me the possibility that James and Hannah never had (surviving) children. I've yet to narrow down Rosie Mallon in the records - there is a Rose Mallon living in Ballydermot in the 1901 census, but she is 72 and thus older than James.
All in all, James left Hannah effects totalling £133. 2s. 9d. Witnesses were Charles Convery and Hugh Henery (sic).
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Well, we can add a new wrinkle to the picture - I've just found records showing a Stafford McNally who married Ellen McGuire in Termoneeny in 1861. Witnesses at the wedding were a Thomas Downey and a Nancy McCann. The couple had a son Henry in 1862.
My mind naturally goes to the previously mentioned couple John and Bridget McNally, who had James Stafford Dinnen and Elizabeth Dinnen as sponsors at the baptism of their child Francis. John and Bridget also had a son John Stafford McNally born in 1865. So it seems likely that the McNally family are another catholic family potentially branching off the Dreenan Downings, in an as-yet unknown fashion.
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So, a quick update to this thread:
I've found out that James' wife Hannah was originally a Brannon which tallies with the other Brannons appearing on death and marriage records earlier in the thread. Her father was possibly an Arthur Brannon and she had at least two siblings (probably more) Arthur Brannon and Rosie McKenna (née Brannon). They came from Broagh.
After asking advice in this thread here, the consensus was that the (Henry) on James' will likely referred to his father's christian name. If so, that seems to be evidence against him being the son of James and Esther O'Neill. However, he still seems strongly (if circumstantially) linked to the local 'Stafford' families of Dreenan.
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Hi, I am not quite sure how to join in this link, but I am particularly interested in the 0'Neill's one in particular a Mary O'Neill that married a Patrick Henry in 1876, Mary said she came from Greenlough Derry on one of the census forms, and in 1921 said she was 68 years and 6 months, I just can not seem to get over the starting line with this couple, Patrick only ever said he was from Derry,.... I have altered their birthdays and parents that many times?!!!! Another name that jumped out at me on this link was McAtamney marrying an O'Neill, spelling was slightly different, but I have a 2-3 cousinship with a McAtamney, but it is the O'Niell and Henry combination I really want to get to grips with they settled in Gateshead Durham UK
Please can anyone help?
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Hi, Julie!
As I've done quite a bit of work on local O'Neills I'll see if I can help you out.
As a first question, have you found a specific marriage record for Mary and Patrick yet? I was wondering if they were married in England or back in Ireland.
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Hi, Thank you for replying, No, the only marriage certificate I have been able to find is on 11th Sept 1878 between Mary Ann O'Neill age 22 years and Patrick Henry age 24 years, in Belfast, both sets of parents living in Belfast.........I am sure it not theirs, as on the 1881 census they were both living in Gateshead Durham and Patrick said he was 30, and Ann 28..... Patrick on all the census forms usually only stated he was from Ireland, but he did say Derry on a couple, Ann on the 1921 census actually said Greenlough, ?!!!do hope you can help I am trying hard to work my way back from Ireland with DNA connections, it would be much simpler if I can work from the start. Julie
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PS, I made a mistake and quoted Ann twice on the communication I just sent, the marriage certificate say's Mary Ann, but Patricks wife is most definitely a Mary, I have found a birth certificate of a Mary O'Neill born in June 1852 in Greenlough but I cannot be sure if I have the right one? Julie
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
I was wondering if they were married in England or back in Ireland.
No marriages in Ireland in 1876 featuring a Patrick Henry.
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I have not been able to find one in the UK either, I am quite baffled......all their children were born in Gateshead Durham and baptised at the same church
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So in the Greenlough parish records I can find the following Mary O'Neill's baptised in the 1850s. I've highlighted the one I believe you've already found from 1852:
- Mary O'Neill - 1851 - Parents: John O'Neill and Rose Slamin (sometimes written Slamen)
- Mary O'Neile - 1852 - Parents: Daniel O'Neill and Nancy O'Neile
- Mary O'Neill - 1855 - Parents: James O'Neill and Peggy McPake (spelling variant of McPeake)
After that there is a gap until the next Mary, born in 1862, probably slightly too young to be your ancestor.
Daniel O'Neill and his wife Nancy O'Neill have come up a few times in the research of myself and the previously mentioned Patrick O'Neill, a co-researcher who is a descendant of the Stafford O'Neills of Ballymacpeake in Greenlough and has done a huge amount of research in the area.
Patrick is a DNA match with some confirmed descendants of Daniel and Nancy through their son John O'Neill, who married a Rose Heverin. The couple then both moved out to New Zealand. I'm therefore fairly certain that either Daniel O'Neill or his wife Nancy are somehow related to the 'Stafford' O'Neills. Of course, O'Neills marrying O'Neills make the precise connection difficult to find, but I believe it's in there.
In terms of your own link, it may be of note that the area that Daniel and Nancy lived in, right by the Dreenan Bridge (number 12 on the map below, taken from the Griffiths valuations) had a huge number of Henry families living there, many the immediate neighbours of the O'Neills. In fact, Henry is one of the most common surnames in the area. There are also a number of confirmed links between other O'Neill families in the area and Henry families. I believe Patrick already has a number of them in his own tree.
What I would suggest is that firstly you contact Patrick (I can pass on his contact to you); he is far more knowlegeable in the Greenlough area than myself. You've mentioned wanting to use DNA, and I find myself wondering whether you could be a match with Patrick, or at the very least share some matches.
Secondly, I would take a look through the other Mary Greenlough births and see if you can rule any of the other births out and narrow it down to Daniel and Nancy's child.
Hope that helps!
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Hello Mike, I am so sorry(again) made a faux pas pressed a wrong button and lost your pm this morning, I am so excited at the information you have been able to give me too, I had read it, feeling like I can see the light at the end of this dark tunnel. You can tell it has been along time since I last used Roots chat, tried to retrieve your pm but no joy
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Not a problem Julie. It's saved in my messages so I'll resend it to you. :)