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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: sugarfizzle on Sunday 24 May 20 07:30 BST (UK)

Title: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Sunday 24 May 20 07:30 BST (UK)
Hoping that someone may be able to help me find a shipping record for Ure Beatrice Ward (possibly Holden or Hubbard) in 1922, returning from Australia to London, England

Further information can be found here

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=831301.0

Ure Beatrice Ward travelled with her husband Alfred and young son Stephen to Australia in 1922. They arrived 13 Feb 1922 aboard Demosthenes.

By 14 Jan 1923, Ure Beatrice Hubbard is back in England, daughter Ure Joyce Hubbard was born.

Ure's stay in Australia must have been very brief, but have been unable to find her return journey, either as Holden (maiden name), Ward (1st husband's surname) or Hubbard (2nd husband's surname).

I believe passports had been introduced by that stage, so presumably looking for Mrs/Ure/Beatrice/Ward. She left London as Beatrice Ward, arrived Australia as Ura Ward.
She was born in 1891.

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 24 May 20 08:09 BST (UK)


If Ure Beatrice would seem to have acquired Mr HUBBARD and / or his name, since leaving England, 1922........

From the birth certificate, 1923, what do you know about Mr HUBBARD?
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: matthewj64 on Sunday 24 May 20 09:08 BST (UK)
They arrived 13 Feb 1922 aboard Demosthenes

Landed at Melbourne

M
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 24 May 20 09:54 BST (UK)

PROV Unassisted Passenger List
https://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/passenger-records-and-immigration

"Demosthenes"  arrived Melbourne  Feb 1922
WARD Alfred       34y      page 5       
WARD Ura          32y       page 5
WARD Stephen    1y        page 5

HOLDEN Sarah   49y       page 4
HOLDEN Harold  19y       page 4
HOLDEN Seth     13y       page 4
HOLDEN Dennis    5y      page 4
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Sunday 24 May 20 10:10 BST (UK)
In 1922, Ure Beatrice must have travelled back to UK shortly after she arrived, and it is this record which I am asking for. The other information I have given below and on another thread is largely irrelevant to this question, wivenhoe.

More info can be found in the link to the other thread.

Ure Beatrice Holden married Alfred Ward, had 2 sons with him, he went off to war in 1915.

Ernest Hubbard married Ure Beatrice Ward, widow and had a son with him.

Alfred Ward returned from war, not exactly sure what happened next, but Alfred and Ure had another son, Stephen, in 1920.

In 1922 Alfred, Ure and Stephen arrived Australia on board Demosthenes, by Jan 1923, Ure had returned to England, had a daughter with Ernest Hubbard.

The first son of Alfred and Ure and the son of Ernest and Ure remained in England. These 3 children and Ure ended up living with another man, Albert Edward Langley, all took the surname of Langley, and another daughter was born to Ure and Albert Edward.

Regards Margaret

Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Sunday 24 May 20 10:13 BST (UK)
wivenhoe, It is the return passage to England I'm looking for, I have both departure from London and arrival in Australia already.

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Sunday 24 May 20 12:29 BST (UK)
Hi,

Have you searched for the arrivals into the UK for your lass - you have a tight timeframe - ?   She should be on a British Passport.   :) 

JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Sunday 24 May 20 12:44 BST (UK)
I have, JM, nothing found this side of the ocean.

A fellow researcher from Australian branch of the family has looked as well, just thought a pair of fresh eyes might find something on Australian side.

As you say, quite a tight timeframe, she must have decided on the way over that Alfred (and Stephen) were not the right choice after all. Returned to her two other children left behind in UK.

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: Ruskie on Sunday 24 May 20 14:41 BST (UK)
As she was returning home to England it is possible there was no record of her arrival?
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Sunday 24 May 20 14:56 BST (UK)
I'm not quite sure what you mean, Ruskie.

A possibility I suppose is that she had a return ticket, just making sure young Stephen was alright on the crossing, though it seems unlikely.

But wouldn't she still appear on passenger lists, both leaving Melbourne and arriving in London?

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: Ruskie on Sunday 24 May 20 15:24 BST (UK)
I am querying what records would have been kept of arrivals into England of English citizens returning home from Australia.

Were there lists of all passengers departing and arriving? I don't know but someone may do. (I can see that there would be interest in arrivals into Australia, but not sure about departures ....  :-\  )

I know I am missing a couple of arrivals coming the other way (England to Australia) around the same time frame ....

I believe there are some passenger lists on the pay sites but I don't know what coverage is like.



Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Sunday 24 May 20 16:16 BST (UK)

I have several family members who visited abroad and returned to UK, who do appear in the records, but not at this time frame, later on.

As far as I know, ships are and were supposed to keep full records. Not to say that they did!!

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Monday 25 May 20 01:37 BST (UK)
 :)

From the UK's National Archives website :
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/passengers/

Incoming passenger lists (1878-1960)
Search and download lists of passengers arriving in the UK from ports outside Europe and the Mediterranean between 1878 and 1960 (BT 26) ......



JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Monday 25 May 20 02:09 BST (UK)
I can see Ure HUBBARD and Ernest HUBBARD on the Electoral Registers for 77 Chalton St, St Pancras in 1922 and in 1923.     I am not familiar with detailed UK voting history, but I think that women aged over 30 were permitted to vote from about the end of WWI provided they also qualified under some property rules.    I think it was in the late 1920s that equal voting rights for males and females came about in the UK.

So if Ure and Ernest HUBBARD are enrolled to vote in 1922, and are still at same address for the 1923 rolls, and Ure had a baby whose birth was registered with GRO in Jan-March 1923, …. Errr …. To me, the question becomes :  Did Ure actually travel to Australia in 1922 or was the Ura V WARD on the 1922 passenger list someone else?

I have checked and checked and rechecked, the typed list lodged at Albany, in Feb 1922 for passengers on the Demosthenes definitely as
WARD
Alfred
Ura V.
Stephen


JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 25 May 20 03:37 BST (UK)
Can you please give some details to the story you are working with. It is starting to sound rather .......untidy.

"...(Ure Beatrice HOLDEN) married Alfred Ward in 1909, had 3 children before he went off to war in 1915."

What names for the three children?.

"She married again in 1917 as a widow her first husband arrived back the following year. I have been told that she was informed that he was missing, presumed dead, whereas in fact he was a POW".

Has anyone looked at the WW1 file for Alfred WARD?

I can see the 1917 marriage record on Ancestry.

What certificates do you have for BDM events for the people named in your research?
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Monday 25 May 20 03:43 BST (UK)
https://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/passenger-records-and-immigration/outwards-passenger-lists

This is the Public Records Office, Victoria, Australia.  Our shipping list indexes are a great place to start when you are searching for a family member. Did the person travel from Victoria to the United Kingdom, New Zealand or Foreign Ports between 1852 and 1923?

JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: matthewj64 on Monday 25 May 20 04:46 BST (UK)
Online trees have the son's name as Steven Claude WARD

Married Hilda Eileen BEEHAG NSW reg 11494/1945 Rockdale district

War record (not digitised) from NAA https://www.naa.gov.au/
WARD, Steven Claude
Service Number - NX8872
Born 23 Mar 1918, London, England
Enlisted Paddington NSW
Next of Kin - WARD, Edward
Item barcode 4848306

Died 1997
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/167513791

Hilda died 2008
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/167513832

M
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Monday 25 May 20 04:58 BST (UK)

PROV Unassisted Passenger List
https://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/passenger-records-and-immigration

"Demosthenes"  arrived Melbourne  Feb 1922
WARD Alfred       34y      page 5       
WARD Ura          32y       page 5
WARD Stephen    1y        page 5

HOLDEN Sarah   49y       page 4
HOLDEN Harold  19y       page 4
HOLDEN Seth     13y       page 4
HOLDEN Dennis    5y      page 4

I confirm that the Stephen WARD on that passenger list that wivenhoe has kindly typed up is noted as aged 1.  The spelling on that list is Stephen with 'ph' and aged 1 year.  It is not Steven aged 4 years.

May I mention that the surname WARD is one of the more popular surnames.   

JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Monday 25 May 20 05:32 BST (UK)
Steven Claud WARD NX8872 was a POW, Stalag IIID, Germany https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130483271

Port Macquarie News 13 Sept 1941
Mr and Mrs E S Ward were very please to hear news of their son, Gunner S C Ward who had been reported missing ..... telegram from Army .... Private Ward prisoner of war.   ... NX8872 Gunner Steven Claud Ward previously reported missing, is now reported prisoner of war, interned Stalag IIID, Germany.

Mr and Mrs E S Ward...  We already know that E is for Edward, so is it possible that S is for Steven?

From the 1937 NSW electoral roll for OXLEY, polling at Port Macquarie  (you needed to be 21 to enrol)
Edward Steven WARD, Eucla, Owen Street,  salesman
Victoria Mabel WARD, Eucla, Owen Street, home duties

Marriage 1925   Edward S A WARD and Victoria M PERFREMENT, registered Manly district of NSW NSW BDM #13082. 

I am doubting that online tree  ::)

JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Monday 25 May 20 05:48 BST (UK)
NSW Electoral Roll 1968  LOWE polling Ryde
Edward Steven Alfred WARD 36 Anzac Ave, public servant
Victoria Mabel, 36 Anzac Ave, home duties

NSW BDM has death registrations
1971 Edward Steven A WARD, registered Sydney #2749
1974 Victoria Mabel WARD, #12321

Either the 1925 marriage registration or the death registration for Edward should give you information about his marital status and the names and ages of children of his marriage/s.  If you were to seek to obtain the NSW BDM records, then may I suggest that Official transcriptions are a good alternative to the more expensive real deal certificates.  See : http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html

JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: matthewj64 on Monday 25 May 20 05:54 BST (UK)

PROV Unassisted Passenger List
https://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/passenger-records-and-immigration

"Demosthenes"  arrived Melbourne  Feb 1922
WARD Alfred       34y      page 5       
WARD Ura          32y       page 5
WARD Stephen    1y        page 5

HOLDEN Sarah   49y       page 4
HOLDEN Harold  19y       page 4
HOLDEN Seth     13y       page 4
HOLDEN Dennis    5y      page 4

I confirm that the Stephen WARD on that passenger list that wivenhoe has kindly typed up is noted as aged 1.  The spelling on that list is Stephen with 'ph' and aged 1 year.  It is not Steven aged 4 years.

May I mention that the surname WARD is one of the more popular surnames.   

JM

The outward passenger list for this family (part of which is posted in other thread) shows the country of last residence as Scotland - not sure if that agrees with what is known?

M

ADD
Last address 22 Yonge Park, Finsbury Park, N4 (which is in London)
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Monday 25 May 20 05:56 BST (UK)
Yes, M,  there's just not enough dots joining up.

JM 

 
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Monday 25 May 20 06:03 BST (UK)
Yes, Carole.

Quite a chequered history.  She was my 1st cousin, twice removed.

I have been in touch with the Australian branch of the family since 2010, gradually we pieced together her life.

She married Alfred Ward in 1909, had 3 children before he went off to war in 1915.

She married again in 1917 as a widow, her first husband arrived back the following year. I have been told that she was informed that he was missing, presumed dead, whereas in fact he was a POW.

They went off to Australia in 1922 as I said, she returned to England, further child born as Hubbard the following year.

Tracing her rather unusual first name through electoral registers she ended up with Albert Edward Langley. He is in Wembley in 1939. I don't think they married, as both Alfred Ward and Ernest Hubbard were both still alive, but she lived as Langley until she died in 1974.

Regards Margaret

Here's Alfred WARD known to our OP to be still alive in the 1930s ....   so I am doubting that ESA and VM Ward and their son Gunner SC Ward have been shown to have a family history connection to Ure Beatrice LANGLEY formerly HUBBARD and earlier WARD, nee HOLDEN.   

JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 25 May 20 09:01 BST (UK)
Assuming that someone is researching the origins of -
Steven Claud WARD NX8872   POW WW2

Port Macquarie News and Hastings River Advocate 13 Jan 1940 p3
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130479600?
...send off for Steve WARD, and his father E S WARD......E S WARD Provost Corps.

Nominal Roll    https://nominal-rolls.dva.gov.au/
(1) WARD Edward Steven Alfred   N61061   b. 29 Dec 1895 Enlisted 18 Dec 1939 Paddington
Locality on enlisting Port Macquarie    NOK Victoria WARD POB Canada

(2) WARD Eward Steven Alfred   NX10088  b. 29 Dec 1896  Enlisted  13 Mar 1940 Paddington
Locality on enlisting Port Macquarie    NOK Victoria WARD POB Parry Sound Canada

Port Macquarie News and Hastings River Advocate 19 Feb 1944 p3
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/106048581?
....welcome home for Steve WARD.....his father's war service.......

Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 25 May 20 09:12 BST (UK)

Port Macquarie and Hastings River Advocate   30 Aug 1941 p4
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130491514?
....good information about E S WARD.....and his two enlistments WW2....
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: matthewj64 on Monday 25 May 20 11:12 BST (UK)

Port Macquarie and Hastings River Advocate   30 Aug 1941 p4
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130491514?
....good information about E S WARD.....and his two enlistments WW2....

Great find! quite a character
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: jonw65 on Monday 25 May 20 11:22 BST (UK)
If this is the correct birth registration
March 1920 Marylebone 1a 1228
Ward,  Stephen C.
mother Holden   

Why not give out the full details from the cert, presuming you have it.
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Monday 25 May 20 11:34 BST (UK)
The plot thickens.
I will have to contact my Australian cousin to confirm.

However, what is known about Alfred Ward in England -

No birth registration found
From RNAF and RAF records he was born 29 Dec 1888 in Highbury, London
Service number 203593 or F3593, confirmed from medals in possession of my cousin.
He gave his next of kin when he joined up in 1915 as his sister, Nelly Varney. This places him as son of Charles Ward and 'Maryon'.

(This makes me think that Alfred Ward may have been separated from Ure Beatrice already)

If you look at the records, he was taken prisoner of war in Turkey in 1918, which fits in with Trove records for Edward Steven Ward.

I am going out shortly, will come back to this later, will speak to my contact to see whether this is his father and grandfather in the newspaper report.

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Monday 25 May 20 11:44 BST (UK)
If this is the correct birth registration
March 1920 Marylebone 1a 1228
Ward,  Stephen C.
mother Holden   

Why not give out the full details from the cert, presuming you have it.

I have no details regarding this birth certificate.

Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Monday 25 May 20 11:47 BST (UK)

Thank you all for your replies and research.

I too had my doubts whether Ure Beatrice actually made the crossing, but a Beatrice Ward left London and a Ura Ward arrived in Melbourne, so I think that she did. Unless Alfred took another women with him under a forged passport. She may not have gone to Australia, but I have been told that she did.

1921 UK census should prove interesting in a couple of years. Where were Alfred Ward, Ernest Hubbard, Edward Ward, Ernest Henry Hubbard and Stephen Claude Ward? A ménage a trois, perhaps?

I will have to wait further news from my contact, I agree with you all about the uncertainty.

Regards Margaret

Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: jonw65 on Monday 25 May 20 12:44 BST (UK)
Photo of the man with a duck in 1941 here
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/231632067?

See The Port Macquarie News and Hastings River Advocate, 23 Nov 1940, for the thoughts of Mr. Ward on the middle east.

For anyone looking on ancestry, they have transcribed the Wards as Baril on their departure for Oz in 1922. Beatrice (or the alleged Beatrice) is Mrs Ban Bessie Baril :)
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Monday 25 May 20 17:05 BST (UK)
Can you please give some details to the story you are working with. It is starting to sound rather .......untidy.

"...(Ure Beatrice HOLDEN) married Alfred Ward in 1909, had 3 children before he went off to war in 1915."

What names for the three children?.
"She married again in 1917 as a widow her first husband arrived back the following year. I have been told that she was informed that he was missing, presumed dead, whereas in fact he was a POW".

Has anyone looked at the WW1 file for Alfred WARD?
I can see the 1917 marriage record on Ancestry.
What certificates do you have for BDM events for the people named in your research?

Edward James Childs Ward MMN Holden, born 21 Jan 1910, Remained in England throughout
Charles Robert Childs Ward MMN Holden, born Mar Q 1912, died Sep Q 1914, aged 2
Ernest Henry Hubbard MMN Holden, born 5 Nov 1918, remained in England
Stephen Claude Ward MMN Holden born Mar Q 1920. Also known as Steven Claude Ward
Ure Joyce Hubbard MMN Holden born 14 Jan 1923

Ernest Henry Hubbard was known as Langley from at least 1939 (Register), possibly earlier, a sister was born 1930 -
Jean Elizabeth Langley MMN Holden born 27 Nov 1930

He later changed his name to Langley by deed poll, I have been told. Ure Joyce reversed her first names, became Joyce Ure Langley, whether by deed poll or not I cannot confirm.

I have no certificates whatsoever, and will not be sending for any.

I have recently been sent a photograph of Ure Beatrice Langley nee Holden; Albert Edward, aka Peter, Langley; Edward Ward; Ernest Henry Hubbard aka Langley; Joyce Ure Goodway nee Hubbard; Jean Elizabeth Spetch nee Langley
i.e. The English branch of this family.

WW1 details already given in previous post.

My Australian 3rd cousin will still be in bed, I'll await his reply

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Monday 25 May 20 23:22 BST (UK)
23 March 1918 is the date of birth for Steven Claude WARD as per his WWII file..  father as Edward Ward.

BUT

5 November 1918 is the date of birth for Ernest  Henry HUBBARD mmm HOLDEN ....

The 3 WARD passengers were Scottish  per passenger list outward to Australia arriving  Feb 1922 with 1 year old Stephen ...

JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: jonw65 on Monday 25 May 20 23:36 BST (UK)
The 3 WARD passengers were Scottish  per passenger list outward to Australia arriving  Feb 1922 with 1 year old Stephen ...

Country of Last Permanent Residence was Scotland. But they may not perhaps have been Scottish.
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Monday 25 May 20 23:46 BST (UK)
Fair comment  ;D ...   how long did you need to have lived in Scotland to be a permanent resident?   ;D 3 or 6 or 12 months, or more ....

JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 26 May 20 00:45 BST (UK)
23 March 1918 is the date of birth for Steven Claude WARD as per his WWII file..  father as Edward Ward.

BUT

5 November 1918 is the date of birth for Ernest  Henry HUBBARD mmm HOLDEN ....

The 3 WARD passengers were Scottish  per passenger list outward to Australia arriving  Feb 1922 with 1 year old Stephen ...

JM


As noted -Registered-
Births Mar 1920  

WARD Stephen C  mmn Holden
Marylebone  1a 1228


Sue
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 26 May 20 00:56 BST (UK)

Nominal Roll    https://nominal-rolls.dva.gov.au/
(1) WARD Edward Steven Alfred   N61061   b. 29 Dec 1895 Enlisted 18 Dec 1939 Paddington
Locality on enlisting Port Macquarie    NOK Victoria WARD POB Canada

 

I suggest you  ask on the Canada board if there is a record for this birth as well as any sign of the parental couple.

Sue
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Tuesday 26 May 20 01:16 BST (UK)
NX10088, Edward Steven Alfred WARD signed his attestation form and other documents in his WWII service file readily available at no charge, online,
Pages 1, 2, 7, 10, 14, 15, 20.
There are photos of ESA Ward in that file.   He attested that his place of birth was Parry Sound, CANADA.  :)

ESA's Citizen Military Forces Dossier has not been digitised.  N61061.   There will be a fee due if you were to request a copy.   

https://www.naa.gov.au/explore-collection   use keywords NX10088 or N61061 or NX8872

JM



Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 26 May 20 01:29 BST (UK)
According to NSW Electoral Roll, Victoria Mabel PERFREMENT was in NSW from at least 1913.

She lived at Limbri, Tamworth region and was with a number of others of the same surname.
I am happy to type up details if relevant.

Sue

 Deleted
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Tuesday 26 May 20 01:34 BST (UK)
I don't think Victoria was born Canada.  I can see her likely NSW birth registered Tamworth district, 1890. #33349.   :)

JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Tuesday 26 May 20 01:43 BST (UK)
I have heard from my 3rd cousin in Australia.

Edward Steven Alfred Ward and Alfred Ward are one and the same person.
He has sent me marriage details of 5 Sep 1925 marriage to Victoria Mabel Perfrement where he stated he was a widower.
He gave his parent's names as Charles Edward Ward and Mary Ann Maryon - he stated his place of birth was Parry Sound, Ontario, Canada. He gave his age as 36.

I have just received this and other documents, but as it is 01:41 I am going to try to get some sleep!

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Tuesday 26 May 20 01:49 BST (UK)
I have heard from my 3rd cousin in Australia.

Edward Steven Alfred Ward and Alfred Ward are one and the same person.
He has sent me marriage details of 5 Sep 1925 marriage to Victoria Mabel Perfrement where he stated he was a widower.
He gave his parent's names as Charles Edward Ward and Mary Ann Maryon - he stated his place of birth was Parry Sound, Ontario, Canada. He gave his age as 36.

I have just received this and other documents, but as it is 01:41 I am going to try to get some sleep!

Regards Margaret

That's good to know that you are confident they are one and the same, thanks for sharing. 

JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Tuesday 26 May 20 04:16 BST (UK)
The plot thickens.
I will have to contact my Australian cousin to confirm.

However, what is known about Alfred Ward in England -

No birth registration found
From RNAF and RAF records he was born 29 Dec 1888 in Highbury, London
Service number 203593 or F3593, confirmed from medals in possession of my cousin.
He gave his next of kin when he joined up in 1915 as his sister, Nelly Varney. This places him as son of Charles Ward and 'Maryon'.

(This makes me think that Alfred Ward may have been separated from Ure Beatrice already)

If you look at the records, he was taken prisoner of war in Turkey in 1918, which fits in with Trove records for Edward Steven Ward.

I am going out shortly, will come back to this later, will speak to my contact to see whether this is his father and grandfather in the newspaper report.

Regards Margaret

The 'UK Royal Air Force Airmen Records' INDEX at Ancestry has the following info about Alfred WARD :
Birthdate 29 December 1888,  born Highbury, London N,  Middlesex, England.   Service Date 19 March 1915,  Service number 203593,  Next of Kin  Nellie VARNEY,  sister. 

ADD
Air Force Number 203593
Name WARD, A   
R.N.A.S.  or R.F.C. Trade Classification Gunlayer   
Remustered to Air Force Trade Classification Aerial Gunner   
R.N.A.S. Rating or R.F.C. Rank or Appointment P.O. 
New Rank in Air Force Sergeant   
Date of Joining 1/8/16   
Normal rate Air Force Pay 3s 3d   
Terms of Enlistment D.W.

JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Tuesday 26 May 20 08:15 BST (UK)
There are many, many inconsistencies.

However, the facts that tie them into being the same man are as follows

1) Enlistment 13 Sep 1906. Alfred Ward, dob 28 Dec 1888, born Highbury, London. Next of kin Sister Nellie Ward
2) Enlistment 19 Mar 1915. Alfred Ward, dob 29 Dec 1888 (1889 crossed through), born Highbury, London. Next of kin Nellie Varney, Address Police Station
3) Documents in cousin's possession name Harry and Nellie Varney named as relatives
4) Marriage 5 Sep 1925 states mother was Mary Ann Maryon

Eleanor Elizabeth Ward was born 9 Dec 1881, Bethnal Green, GRO MMN Myron

Harry Alfred Varney, Police Sergeant, married Eleanor Elizabeth Ward 27 Jul 1908

He has sent letters and telegrams which were sent to his grandmother Mrs E A Ward at Port Macquarie, when Steven Claude Ward went missing, then reported prisoner of war in Stalag, Germany, as per newspaper report.
He has a telegram from Bert Hinckley/Hinkley, mentioned in the newspaper report.
Bert Hinkley was based in same squadron as Alfred Ward, according to newspaper report and military records.

Where Parry Sound, Ontario, Canada fits in I'm not sure!!  But they are one and the same person.

He also sent Stephen Claude Ward birth cert - 23 Mar 1920, Queen Charlotte Hospital, St Marylebone, Father Alfred Ward, Mother Ure Beatrice Ward, formerly Holden.

Regards Margaret

Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 26 May 20 08:19 BST (UK)
From RNAF and RAF records he was born 29 Dec 1888 in Highbury, London
He gave his next of kin when he joined up in 1915 as his sister, Nelly Varney. This places him as son of Charles Ward and 'Maryon'

That date of birth cannot be correct. Well, the year can't be.

Birth
WARD, LAURENCE       
Mother's Maiden Surname: MARYON 
GRO Reference: 1889  S Quarter in WEST HAM  Volume 04A  Page 145

Baptism, 6 Sep 1889, at St. Luke, Victoria Docks, of Lawrence Ward.
Parents Charles Samuel + Mary Ann Ward.
Born 16 June 1889 (ancestry transcript)
Small view!
https://www.essexarchivesonline.co.uk//ancestry.aspx?id=1494012

Death
June 1890 West Ham 4a 58
Ward, Lawrence
age 0
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 26 May 20 08:28 BST (UK)
Mr and Mrs Edward Steven WARD also had a daughter whose given name was significant.

Do you have her details?

Sue
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 26 May 20 08:36 BST (UK)
Alfred Ward
Birth 4 Dec 1887
Baptism 4 April 1888
St Luke Victoria  Docks
Parents Charles Samuel + Mary Ann

Do check original if possible.
Any birth reg would be in Dec qtr 87 or March qtr 88, but not found anything :(
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 26 May 20 08:38 BST (UK)
Alfred Ward, 9(!), with his Maryon grandparents in 1891, in Highbury, Islington
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:3BXD-TZM

Also there is sister Ellen, 3. It appears the ages of Alfred and Ellen are the wrong way round.

1901, he is still with the grandparents.
Alfred Ward, 13, born Tottenham
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X98R-NXX

Sisters Nellie, 19 (correct age), and Florry, 17, also there.

Ties in with a birth for Alfred in Dec 1887.
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 26 May 20 08:52 BST (UK)
I am proposing there was an informal adoption arrangement made in England.

Ure having given birth to the child Steven offered him for adoption to his father, Alfred/Edward WARD and a woman who was his partner.

Because of the bigamy in both situations and the need to avoid official scrutiny,the woman travelled using the name of the child's mother, Ure WARD.

Something did not work out in Australia and the partnership was in some way dicontinued.

In 1925, Edward claiming he was a widower, married Victoria Mabel PERFREMENT and Steven was brought up with her as his 'mother'.

Sue



Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 26 May 20 08:56 BST (UK)
He also sent Stephen Claude Ward birth cert - 23 Mar 1920, Queen Charlotte Hospital, St Marylebone, Father Alfred Ward, Mother Ure Beatrice Ward, formerly Holden.

Was Ure the informant? Any other address given on cert?
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 26 May 20 09:00 BST (UK)

NSW BDM marriage
11494/1945 WARD Steven Claude    marr.   BEEHAG Hilda Eileen   @ Rockdale

What details does Steven give for himself and both his parents.

"Stephen Claude Ward birth cert - 23 Mar 1920, Queen Charlotte Hospital, St Marylebone, Father Alfred Ward, Mother Ure Beatrice Ward, formerly Holden."

Who is the informant for this birth record?
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 26 May 20 10:46 BST (UK)
Post it on both threads!

In 1921 electoral registers she is living alone, at 31, Chalton Street, under the name of Hubbard. 1922 - 1925 electoral registers she is living with second husband at 77, Chalton Street, under the name of Hubbard.
Modified: 1921 record is Ure Beatrice Hubbard, Provision dealer London PO Directory, living at 38, Chalton Street.

1921 electoral register has Ernest Hubbard at 33 Chalton Street, South-East St. Pancras.
Probably Ure wasn't eligible when it was compiled.
Charles + Ann Esther Holden were at number 31 Chalton Street.  Are they relations?
Majm has given 1922, 1923 earlier.

1919, 1920 PO London Directories have Mrs. Susan Hubbard, provision dealer, at 33 Chalton street, Somers town
1921 it has altered/corrected to Mrs. Ure Beatrice Hubbard at 33 Chalton street
1922 Not listed

Incidentally, Mrs. Ann Esther Holden at 31 is a tobacconist.

And, OK, Susan Hubbard was Ernest's mother. Died in 1919, age 73. Left a will
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=hubbard&yearOfDeath=1919&page=2#calendar
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Tuesday 26 May 20 11:41 BST (UK)
The WW2 records linked to give Edward Steven Alfred Ward's dob as 29 Dec 1896. As he admitted in the newspaper report to dying his hair brown to appear younger, this would appear to be a lie, one of many.

There is also a letter from S C Ward, 9, York Close, Yowie Bay, 2228, NSW, dated 6 Dec 1982 regarding his father's medals in the link provided earlier -
https://www.naa.gov.au/explore-collection

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Tuesday 26 May 20 12:51 BST (UK)
The WW2 records linked to give Edward Steven Alfred Ward's dob as 29 Dec 1896. As he admitted in the newspaper report to dying his hair brown to appear younger, this would appear to be a lie, one of many.

There is also a letter from S C Ward, 9, York Close, Yowie Bay, 2228, NSW, dated 6 Dec 1982 regarding his father's medals in the link provided earlier -
https://www.naa.gov.au/explore-collection

Regards Margaret

There is nothing in that WWII file to confirm that ESA WARD and Alfred WARD are one and the same person. The letter from Steven is  about the WWII service and the official reply to that letter is also on that file.... Pages 23 and 22.  Steven's letter was written more than 11 years after his father's death.

ADD

Steven's letter says 'on behalf of my father' and at least in NSW that expression means you are doing something that you have been expressly asked to do,   Was the medal issued ...

JM


.......

The 'UK Royal Air Force Airmen Records' INDEX at Ancestry has the following info about Alfred WARD :
Birthdate 29 December 1888,  born Highbury, London N,  Middlesex, England.   Service Date 19 March 1915,  Service number 203593,  Next of Kin  Nellie VARNEY,  sister. 

ADD
Air Force Number 203593
Name WARD, A   
R.N.A.S.  or R.F.C. Trade Classification Gunlayer   
Remustered to Air Force Trade Classification Aerial Gunner   
R.N.A.S. Rating or R.F.C. Rank or Appointment P.O. 
New Rank in Air Force Sergeant   
Date of Joining 1/8/16   
Normal rate Air Force Pay 3s 3d   
Terms of Enlistment D.W.

JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Tuesday 26 May 20 14:07 BST (UK)
"There is nothing in that WWII file to confirm that ESA WARD and Alfred WARD are one and the same person. The letter from Steven is  about the WWII service and the official reply to that letter is also on that file.... Pages 23 and 22.  Steven's letter was written more than 11 years after his father's death."

I don't believe I said that the records confirmed that they were one and the same, I didn't mean even to imply it. What I said was -

"The WW2 records linked to give Edward Steven Alfred Ward's dob as 29 Dec 1896. As he admitted in the newspaper report to dying his hair brown to appear younger, this would appear to be a lie, one of many.

There is also a letter from S C Ward, 9, York Close, Yowie Bay, 2228, NSW, dated 6 Dec 1982 regarding his father's medals in the link provided earlier -
https://www.naa.gov.au/explore-collection "

I haven't had time to go through all the documents that Bob has sent me, as well as all the records in the above link, though I did see the replies to S C Ward's letter.

The Varney connection, POW in Turkey connection, Hinkley connection , especially the first, are enough to convince me, if not you.

But I don't need to convince anybody. I know that there are many unanswered anomalies here, Bob may have the answers to each and every one of them, having spent many years researching his father and paternal grandparents (Modified: or he may be as puzzled as the rest of us).

My reason for posting was as follows -

"Hoping that someone may be able to help me find a shipping record for Ure Beatrice Ward (possibly Holden or Hubbard) in 1922, returning from Australia to London, England"

The answer to that appears to be a resounding no.

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Tuesday 26 May 20 14:19 BST (UK)
Mr and Mrs Edward Steven WARD also had a daughter whose given name was significant.

Do you have her details?

Sue

No, I haven't, not sure if Bob has or not. What was her name?

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Tuesday 26 May 20 16:30 BST (UK)
Well I am not wasting any more hours of my time on sugarfizzle. Or seconds even! One of the most ungrateful persons I have ever encountered on here.

Back to helping the nice people :)

I am very grateful for the help everybody has given me. I have found out a lot about Alfred Ward in the past few days, both from everyone here and from Bob, my 3rd cousin.

The information is conflicting and doesn't make proper sense, but it appears to be a pack of lies told by both Ure Beatrice Holden and Alfred Ward.

More so by Alfred, I think. He admits to altering his dob to appear younger (newspaper article), his mother's maiden name given as Maryon (marriage record), and his sister is given as Nellie Ward/Varney (military records), who in turn was daughter of Mary Ann Maryon and he has written in his own hand writing the names of Nellie and Harry Varney as sister and brother in law (documents in Bob's possession) These facts lead me to the conclusion that Alfred Ward and Edward Steven Alfred Ward are one and the same person.

I am very sorry if I have offended anyone.

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 27 May 20 00:17 BST (UK)
Mr and Mrs Edward Steven WARD also had a daughter whose given name was significant.

Do you have her details?

Sue

No, I haven't, not sure if Bob has or not. What was her name?

Regards Margaret


I have sent PM to you. I cannot confirm her death, though I do see her possible marriage.
ADDING- There was a another son too.
Sue
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Wednesday 27 May 20 02:02 BST (UK)
Thank you so much Sue, what a find. I'll ask Bob if it tallies.

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 27 May 20 02:44 BST (UK)
Can you please respond to these request.......

NSW BDM marriage
11494/1945 WARD Steven Claude    marr.   BEEHAG Hilda Eileen   @ Rockdale

What details does Steven give for himself and both his parents.


"Stephen Claude Ward birth cert - 23 Mar 1920, Queen Charlotte Hospital, St Marylebone, Father Alfred Ward, Mother Ure Beatrice Ward, formerly Holden."

Who is the informant for this birth record?


Also  -
Does Bob have the WW1 service file for Edward Steven WARD....the whole file. It would be useful to see what and when the government communicated to Ure about her husband.


Use Ancestry Canada census...1901...1911 (with birth dates)....1921.....to find WARD family, Parry Sound Canada. Father Edward E(rnest) born England ~1860.

Edward Steven WARD would seem to know about this family.
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Wednesday 27 May 20 04:08 BST (UK)
Thank you one and all.
Bob has just got back to me -

"Yes Aunty Maryon & Uncle Ronald, dads half sister & brother.
Mother Victoria married Sept. 1925 to Edward 2nd marriage.
Maryon married Don & Ronald married Shirley."

Maryon and Ronald were children from the second marriage, as above.

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Wednesday 27 May 20 04:22 BST (UK)
Can you please respond to these request.......

NSW BDM marriage
11494/1945 WARD Steven Claude    marr.   BEEHAG Hilda Eileen   @ Rockdale

What details does Steven give for himself and both his parents.


"Stephen Claude Ward birth cert - 23 Mar 1920, Queen Charlotte Hospital, St Marylebone, Father Alfred Ward, Mother Ure Beatrice Ward, formerly Holden."

Who is the informant for this birth record?


Also  -
Does Bob have the WW1 service file for Edward Steven WARD....the whole file. It would be useful to see what and when the government communicated to Ure about her husband.


Use Ancestry Canada census...1901...1911 (with birth dates)....1921.....to find WARD family, Parry Sound Canada. Father Edward E(rnest) born England ~1860.

Edward Steven WARD would seem to know about this family.

I have no idea regarding the first query.
Ure Beatrice Ward formerly Holden was the informant on Stephen's birth certificate.
There is something written on Alfred's WW1 file which is difficult to read.
Something to the effect of
'If this man dies ..... missing.....'

Don't know if anyone can read it better than I can.

However, if he gave Nellie Varney as his next of kin , wouldn't they inform her, rather than Ure?

Thanks for the info re Canadian family, will take a look later.

Another sleepless night, it's 04:22 here in UK!
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: matthewj64 on Wednesday 27 May 20 08:12 BST (UK)

There is something written on Alfred's WW1 file which is difficult to read.
Something to the effect of
'If this man dies ..... missing.....'

Don't know if anyone can read it better than I can.

However, if he gave Nellie Varney as his next of kin , wouldn't they inform her, rather than Ure?

I had also wondered about this.

Snip attached

From: The National Archives of the UK; Kew, Surrey, England; Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services; Class: ADM 188; Piece: 567

Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 27 May 20 08:26 BST (UK)
"If this man dies or ...missing or is discharged to shore...."
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 27 May 20 09:16 BST (UK)
Hope I am not over dramatising but...

Can I see Scotland Yard?

Sue
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 27 May 20 09:29 BST (UK)
Quote
Can I see Scotland Yard?

It could well be that. He was a police constable.
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Wednesday 27 May 20 09:33 BST (UK)
Sue,  :) :).
However, I can now see Scotland Yard as well!!

'If this man dies .....
missing.....
Or is discharged to Shore...
Scotland Yard....
Wife ...
Vide Reg....

I have tried inverting colours, to no avail

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Wednesday 27 May 20 09:35 BST (UK)
Quote
Can I see Scotland Yard?

It could well be that. He was a police constable.

I'd forgotten that. But why would Scotland Yard be interested in a police constable?

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 27 May 20 09:42 BST (UK)
Quote
But why would Scotland Yard be interested in a police constable?

If he was a serving PC when he joined the navy, he would have been entitled and expected to return to the police on discharge. The Met would need to know if he died or went missing, or if he was discharged from the armed forces.
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Wednesday 27 May 20 09:52 BST (UK)
I have family members in the Bundaberg  region in Queensland.  Best Hinkler, famous Australian Aviator came from there.  His bio at the online Australian Dictionary of Biography gives  info out a connection with  Canada during his WWI years.  Bert Hinkler is mentioned in the newspaper writeup about Edward Steven   :)  it could be that may help explain how Edward sourced a valid  place name for his birth place on his WWII records.


JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Wednesday 27 May 20 09:54 BST (UK)
Quote
But why would Scotland Yard be interested in a police constable?

If he was a serving PC when he joined the navy, he would have been entitled and expected to return to the police on discharge. The Met would need to know if he died or went missing, or if he was discharged from the armed forces.

Thanks for that. Looks highly likely.  :)

Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 27 May 20 10:22 BST (UK)
Quote
She married again in 1917 as a widow her first husband arrived back the following year. I have been told that she was informed that he was missing, presumed dead, whereas in fact he was a POW

I didn't see anything in Alfred's navy records to suggest that he had been posted missing or taken prisoner in 1917 or earlier. His RAF record shows that he was taken prisoner by the Turks in July 1918 but that was nearly a year after his wife's bigamous marriage to Ernest Hubbard. 
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Wednesday 27 May 20 10:23 BST (UK)
I have family members in the Bundaberg  region in Queensland.  Best Hinkler, famous Australian Aviator came from there.  His bio at the online Australian Dictionary of Biography gives  info out a connection with  Canada during his WWI years.  Bert Hinkler is mentioned in the newspaper writeup about Edward Steven   :)  it could be that may help explain how Edward sourced a valid  place name for his birth place on his WWII records.

JM

Bob has a telegram sent to his grandfather from (Bert) Hinckler/Hinkler as previously mentioned.

There is so much that Edward Steven /Alfred Ward made up, it is difficult to sort fact from fiction!!

Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 27 May 20 12:29 BST (UK)
Just an observation here.

Edward/Alfred WARD is listed as a traveller on his arrival in 1922.
We would today call that a travelling salesman.

Electoral rolls show him as a salesman and at one stage he is a guest-house proprietor.

On his arrival in Melbourne which is listed with Ure and Steven, he would have needed employment promptly. To support this he would need a female partner to care for the child. As Ure was in England (and, in my opinion, never left) there was obviously somebody filling this role.   The family of Perfrement was based in Armidale and Tamworth area.  I do not believe it was her.

 
Sue

Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Wednesday 27 May 20 12:54 BST (UK)
Quote
She married again in 1917 as a widow her first husband arrived back the following year. I have been told that she was informed that he was missing, presumed dead, whereas in fact he was a POW

I didn't see anything in Alfred's navy records to suggest that he had been posted missing or taken prisoner in 1917 or earlier. His RAF record shows that he was taken prisoner by the Turks in July 1918 but that was nearly a year after his wife's bigamous marriage to Ernest Hubbard.

As you say, Shaun. I think he may have split up with Ure prior to going to war, gave his sister as next of kin.

They both married bigamously, Ure unwilling to marry for a third time, that might have been a bit much, even for her!!

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: matthewj64 on Wednesday 27 May 20 13:01 BST (UK)
From Ancestry, UK, Absent Voter Lists, 1918-1925, 1939
'The Absent Voter Lists enabled servicemen and women to vote by proxy or by postal application, when away from home on active service. They record the civilian address of the absent voter...'

1918 & 1919, Alfred Ward - 69 Killyon Rd, Wandsworth, Sgt RAF, Service No.203593
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Wednesday 27 May 20 15:08 BST (UK)
Sue, You may well be right that Ure didn't leave England, all the evidence appears to point that way. I have emailed Bob, asked him if his grandfather told him that she came to Australia (likely to be true), if his father told him ( less likely but still a possibility), or whether it was inferred from the shipping records (least likely to be correct)

matthewj64, Another good find, I've never used those records before, might find something else of interest there!!

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: wivenhoe on Thursday 28 May 20 00:13 BST (UK)
NSW BDM marriage
11494/1945 WARD Steven Claude    marr.   BEEHAG Hilda Eileen   @ Rockdale

What details does Steven give for himself and both his parents.

This is important information. Can you please find out what details Steven gives for himself and both his parents. Ask Bob for this information. If Bob does not have the marriage record, he needs to get it.

WW1 service file for Alfred WARD........is it from a subscription service or free to access....ie am I able to locate and see this file?

Police service record.....is there an accessible online source to see this?
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 28 May 20 00:53 BST (UK)
Just wondering also, was there any comment or anything familiar to your people about the address

22 Yonge Park, Finsbury Park, N4

As given in a previous post as being the last UK address of Alfred and Ure shown on their arrival entry to Aust.

Sue
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Thursday 28 May 20 01:11 BST (UK)
Remembering that the service number for rank and file in the UK military in WWI was NOT a unique number, but that 203593 was one number allocated to Alfred WARD and also possibly to others ....

So I have used some 'outside the square' online searchings ... and my NSW State Library eresources ... and I have searched for '203593' ...
Gloucester Journal, Saturday May 12, 1917 Volume CXCVI,  Issue 10154, p. 6 Article.
The British Casualties.
The Gloucesters' Losses.
.....  (many .... paragraphs  :'( of names of the fallen and the wounded)
Thursday night's casualty lists contained the names of 217 officers (48 dead) and 4,308 rank and file (1,293 dead).  The latter included the following:- Died of wounds : Gloucester Regt., 203593 J. Apperley, Hereford. ....

So it is possible that Alfred's sister was given unofficial information about the Gloucester soldier's death as though it was Alfred rather than J Apperley.

JM

Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Thursday 28 May 20 03:51 BST (UK)
I have family members in the Bundaberg  region in Queensland.  Best Hinkler, famous Australian Aviator came from there.  His bio at the online Australian Dictionary of Biography gives  info out a connection with  Canada during his WWI years.  Bert Hinkler is mentioned in the newspaper writeup about Edward Steven   :)  it could be that may help explain how Edward sourced a valid  place name for his birth place on his WWII records.


JM

http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/hinkler-herbert-john-bert-6680

This biography mentions Bert Hinkler’s WWI service with the RNAS and the Canadian Pilot in the No. 5 Squadron as Charles B SPROATT who gave him his first chance to fly a plane.    It also gives Bert Hinkler as completing an aerial gunlayers course in 1916, and being in the No. 3 Wing escorting RNAS bombers from  Luxeuil and Ochey near Nancy, France. 
 I Confirm that
 ADM188 piece 567 for Alfred WARD, F3593, shows that he was Aero Wing No. 3 Luxeuil 29/11/16 ….. and notes include reference to the ship President II.  (See my ADD below) 
ADM188 piece 560 is for Bert Hinkler, F311, and notes Wing 3, France from 1 April 1915 until 1917 and notes include reference to the ship President II (See my ADD below)
So that places Bert Hinkler and Alfred Ward together, and Bert Hinkler and the Canadian Pilot together.   

The Canadian Pilot is likely to have been Charles Beverley SPROATT, who was born in Ontario, Canada, and who was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross see his various mentions in the London Gazette. 
Issue 29573 page 4551 of 9 May 1916
Issue 30324 page 10296 of 5 October 1917
Supplement 30363 pages 11320 and 11321 of 30 October 1917 **
Issue 30876 page 10189 of 30 August 1918
Issue 31271, page 4422 of 4 April 1919

** Flt Sub-Lieut. Charles Beverley Sproatt, R.N.A.S. carried out a bombing attack on Bruges Docks on the 4th September 1917 obtaining direct hits.  He was subjected to heavy and accurate anti-aircraft fire and his machine was shot about and radiator pierced.

ADD ... the President II was the shore establishment (stone frigate) near the Tower Bridge in London.   :D  thanks to one of my ancient living rellies reading my post and phoning me 'straight away' to remind me that HMS President II was a stone frigate.   ::)

 JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Thursday 28 May 20 04:24 BST (UK)
Sue, You may well be right that Ure didn't leave England, all the evidence appears to point that way. I have emailed Bob, asked him if his grandfather told him that she came to Australia (likely to be true), if his father told him ( less likely but still a possibility), or whether it was inferred from the shipping records (least likely to be correct)
Regards Margaret

Reply from Bob
His grandfather kept a lot of things secret, told his father that Ure died in childbirth. The first Bob knew about them coming to Australia was the shipping documents.

Looking highly likely that someone else went to Australia with Alfred Ward. But would have to be on a forged passport, a highly risky thing to do, perhaps. Though less checks than these days, probably.

Yonge Park means nothing at this stage, 1921 census might help with that.

Regards Margaret

Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Thursday 28 May 20 04:36 BST (UK)
I wonder if there was just the one passport, likely just in his name, giving his status as married, and noting his police career and his WWI service ...  rather than three separate passports ...

JM
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 28 May 20 06:06 BST (UK)
I'm sure all would agree that Edward/Alfred WARD was a manipulator of systems who had an easy and persuasive flow of talk.

 It may have been Ure's passport used for the woman (and a bit more hair dye as needed!!) -edit- plus a little fast talking ;D

I have had a search of Yonge Park Finsbury Park.

Not very much help. The roll was compiled in Autumn of 1922

1922 at 22 Yonge Park
FURNACE, Sydney 
FURNACE Annie.
FURNACE, Albert William
RUSTON, Edwin
RUSTON, Lena

1919 22 Yonge Park
FURNACE Annie.
FURNACE, Albert William
FURNACE, Samuel James

ADDING FYI.
Nobody named WARD registered to vote address Yonge Park in 1919 or autumn 1922
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 28 May 20 06:17 BST (UK)
I wonder if there was just the one passport, likely just in his name, giving his status as married, and noting his police career and his WWI service ...  rather than three separate passports ...

JM

That is an interesting possibility. Were passports a new thing for British subjects to a British Dominions? Were they brought in just after WW1?

Sue
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: wivenhoe on Thursday 28 May 20 06:45 BST (UK)
"....Reply from Bob
(Bob's)  grandfather, (Edward Steven Alfred WARD)  kept a lot of things secret.....

(Edward Steven Alfred WARD) told (Bob's) father that Ure died in childbirth.

The first Bob knew about them coming to Australia was the shipping documents".

Bob did not hear any accent in his grandfather, Edward WARD?

Bob had heard the name Ure from his father.....or.......no one had heard of this name until researching this family?

Edward Steven Alfred WARD told his son Steven that Steven's mother was named Ure?.... and she had died in childbirth.

Or...did he just say that Steven's mother had died.........possibly the woman that we are thinking might have travelled to Australia with Edward and son Steven....this woman having died or parted company with Edward WARD in Australia?
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: mckha489 on Thursday 28 May 20 06:54 BST (UK)
I wonder if there was just the one passport, likely just in his name, giving his status as married, and noting his police career and his WWI service ...  rather than three separate passports ...

JM

That is an interesting possibility. Were passports a new thing for British subjects to a British Dominions? Were they brought in just after WW1?

Sue

It wouldn’t surprise me to know that wives were just added onto their husbands.
I just pulled out my mother’s from 1957.  She has her own, but we  children are just written on it in ink. 
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: judb on Thursday 28 May 20 07:28 BST (UK)
Wikipedia has this information re British passports
Passport booklets (1921–1993)
As with many contemporary travel documents worldwide, details were handwritten into the passport and (as of 1955) included: number, holder's name, "accompanied by his wife" and her maiden name, "and" (number) "children", national status. For both bearer and wife: profession, place and date of birth, country of residence, height, eye and hair colour, special peculiarities, signature and photograph. Names, birth dates, and sexes of children, list of countries for which valid, issue place and date, expiry date, a page for renewals and, at the back, details of the amount of foreign exchange for travel expenses (a limited amount of sterling, typically £50 but increasing with inflation, could be taken out of the country).[25]
If details and photograph of a man's wife and details of children were entered (this was not compulsory), the passport could be used by the bearer, wife, and children under 16, if together; separate passports were required for the wife or children to travel independently.


I am 99% sure that my children did not have separate passports in 1969 and possibly 1974.  I think they travelled on my husband's UK passport.

Photographs, if used, did not have very strict regulation as they do currently.  I have seen a passport which used the person's photo which had been cut out of a family group photo.

So there may have been no need for "Ure Beatrice WARD" (or whoever she was!) to have a photo in the passport.

Judith

Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 28 May 20 07:59 BST (UK)
Hi Judith,
That makes it clear that the speculation I put forward in Reply #48 is possible.

I would say for a personality like Edward/Alfred, the presentation of acceptable passport documentation for the woman accompanying him would be no problem.

As he was already married to Ure it would be an easy matter to 'document ' a departure for Australia as a couple with their young son. No bigamy on anyone's part would come to light, especially with his name change after arrival!


 Sue
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 28 May 20 09:12 BST (UK)
Quote
Gloucester Journal, Saturday May 12, 1917 Volume CXCVI,  Issue 10154, p. 6 Article.
The British Casualties.
The Gloucesters' Losses.
.....  (many .... paragraphs  :'( of names of the fallen and the wounded)
Thursday night's casualty lists contained the names of 217 officers (48 dead) and 4,308 rank and file (1,293 dead).  The latter included the following:- Died of wounds : Gloucester Regt., 203593 J. Apperley, Hereford. ....

So it is possible that Alfred's sister was given unofficial information about the Gloucester soldier's death as though it was Alfred rather than J Apperley.

No that doesn't work. 203593 was Ward's RAF number, allocated to him when the RAF was formed in April 1918. In 1917 he was in the RNAS, number F3593.
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: majm on Thursday 28 May 20 10:58 BST (UK)
Thanks Shaun for sorting that.  I had not accessed the Fold 3 document, and had relied on an INDEX .. and an Ancestry one  ::)  ::)... I had  broken my own rules  ::)  ::) when I had typed up the info in my earlier reply # 42.

JM

Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Thursday 28 May 20 11:42 BST (UK)
I wonder if there was just the one passport, likely just in his name, giving his status as married, and noting his police career and his WWI service ...  rather than three separate passports ...
JM

And the replies following this.

A very likely explanation indeed. My mother used to be on my father's passport. I am happy in my mind that Ure didn't go to Australia, not sure what Bob thinks. I have sent him a link to this thread, I don't know if he has read any of it.

I think this topic has been well and truly exhausted, and I await 1921 census with interest, as I'm sure we all do for our own families.

Thank you one and all for unravelling Alfred's story, if not quite unravelling Ure's story.

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: judb on Thursday 28 May 20 11:46 BST (UK)
It's kept us busy in this time of staying at home; the Aussie board is always up for a good hunt. Hope you and your family are ok.
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Thursday 28 May 20 15:36 BST (UK)
Thanks for that, judb (and everyone else)

We're ok at present, hopefully an announcement later today regarding further easing of lockdown in England. Staying in as such hasn't bothered us, it's not seeing family/grandaughter that has been the hardest, like for most people.

Regards Margaret
 :)
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: sugarfizzle on Wednesday 29 September 21 16:36 BST (UK)
Once again, thank you all. Quick update.

DNA testing has confirmed that Ure Beatrice Holden/Ward/Hubbard/Langley was not the mother of Steven Claude Ward.

An unknown lady registered the birth using Ure's name. She may or may not have been the same lady that went to Australia on Demosthenes.

1921 census should hopefully clarify things, but my Australian cousin is currently grandmotherless.
His DNA matches haven't identified her, but he has a fourth group of matches who obviously represent her ancestral line.

Regards Margaret
Title: Re: Ure Beatrice Ward, left Australia 1922 for London
Post by: Jennaya on Thursday 30 September 21 13:07 BST (UK)
This is an intriguing story.

Perhaps Steven's mother did die in childbirth in Australia with a subsequent pregnancy. Not sure what name the death would have been registered under.

Regards
Jennaya