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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: ValJJJ on Sunday 24 May 20 21:00 BST (UK)

Title: Help with an address please
Post by: ValJJJ on Sunday 24 May 20 21:00 BST (UK)
I am having trouble finding this person and the address in the 1901 census so wonder if I am misreading the information?

This snippet is from Dec 1901, so of course the person may not have lived at this address at the time of the census but I would have expected the address to exist.

I think is says Mr Maunder, Hallsop, Belsize Park, SE

I have searched FindMyPast 1901 census using the address and found Belsize Park, Gardens and Mews but all of them have numbered houses, with no names, other than one that is The Parsonage.  Perhaps I am misreading Hallsop?  I think Maunder is correct.

I can't find a likely Maunder either in the 1901 census, or electoral rolls.  I thought he would have a vote since he owned property.

Any ideas please?

Thanks.
Val
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: Mckha489 on Sunday 24 May 20 21:26 BST (UK)
I think it says HILLTOP
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: Bee on Sunday 24 May 20 21:29 BST (UK)
another one for Hill Top
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 24 May 20 21:42 BST (UK)
It wouldn't be Belsize Park if it was SE.
I once lived in Belsize Park and that was NW3

I agree with Hilltop. I'll enlarge to see it more clearly.

Gadget
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 24 May 20 21:47 BST (UK)
Enlarged it looks like Hillsop or Hilltop  Belsize PR. SE

 :-\
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: Mckha489 on Sunday 24 May 20 21:59 BST (UK)
There is a house called Hilltop in Muswell Hill, and another in Hendon.
 Neither of those are S.E. Either

There is a Mr Maunder 83 boundary Road who is an agent for the Hampstead & Highgate Express in 1903

And he is there in 1901, Marylebone.  Still not S.E. 
However just in case his name is Owen Maunder, 34, Stationer, b Farleigh, Somerset.
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ValJJJ on Sunday 24 May 20 23:00 BST (UK)
Thanks for all your suggestions.  I hadn't read it as two words, but it certainly does look like Hill Top.

Perhaps it isn't SE at all.  Did people in 1901 refer to London areas in this way in any case?  I'll have to look at the rest of the document to see what those letters might resemble elsewhere.
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 24 May 20 23:20 BST (UK)
AS far as I can recall, they did.
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 24 May 20 23:25 BST (UK)
Just checked one at random. London 1901. Some codes, some not.

Larger Towns and cities in UK had area codes before the introduction of post codes.
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 24 May 20 23:53 BST (UK)
I did a quick check in the London tel directories for circa 1901 but couldn't find a suitable Mr Maunder(s)

Gadget
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ValJJJ on Monday 25 May 20 08:38 BST (UK)
Thanks Gadget.  That made me think about Kelly's or other directories for other years. 

It is an odd way to abbreviate Park as PK. I'd expect it to be Pk.   Perhaps it isn't Belsize at all and PK means something else.

Similarly perhaps the SE, which is not very clear, is something else, such as a number, eg 5 something, or another abbreviation such as J something, perhaps referring to Mr Maunder rather than the address?

I looked at the rest of the document and 5 is fairly clear, and I couldn't find anything that looked like those 'SE' letters.  E could be C but is formed differently consistently in the doc.  Actually I wonder if this was added later by another writer because it doesn't match anything. 

Is it something that means 'paid'?  The doc details the rent owed to him, and elsewhere it states who paid the arrears.
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ValJJJ on Monday 25 May 20 08:49 BST (UK)
It may be useful for me to look at the adjoining pages for records of others (this is the admissions record for St Pancras Board of Guardians, District No 7, 1901,  Folio 214, which is image 216 of 313 - I found it under Settlement Papers on Ancestry) to see if similar annotations/abbreviations are used, as the records were probably written by the same person (Relieving Officer Lock - whose handwriting has sent me cross-eyed!).

I don't think it's permissible to display the original here, but I could PM it to anyone who is interested.  Plus my attempt at transcribing it.

I'll see if there are any references to Maunder in newspapers too.
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: Gadget on Monday 25 May 20 09:09 BST (UK)
If it was for admissione to the  St Pancras workhouse, then Belsize Park might be covered by that jurisdiction

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/StPancras/

Belsize Park is north of Chalk Farm so I would have thought that Hampstead would be the closest:

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Hampstead/

I'm not sure about arrangements for admission in the London Workhouses.  It doesn't explain the S. E or whatever though  :-\
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ValJJJ on Monday 25 May 20 10:35 BST (UK)
Hi Gadget

Sorry I didn't give all the details. Maunder was not admitted to the workhouse.  It was his tenant who lived in Hanway St.

I did wonder if SE is something like JP or another status but would expect that to be written after his name not at the end of the address. 

Val
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 25 May 20 10:59 BST (UK)
Quote
this is the admissions record for St Pancras Board of Guardians, District No 7, 1901,  Folio 214, which is image 216 of 313

I can't find it from that information - can you post a link? Or give the name of the person who was admitted?
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ValJJJ on Monday 25 May 20 11:03 BST (UK)
Sorry here is the full link:
London, England, Poor Law and Board of Guardian Records, 1430-1930,
Borough: Camden,
Union: St Pancras,
Choose Settlement Papers from drop down menu, then
Record of Applications: District No 7, 1901,
Folio 214, which is image 216 of 313.

this isn't digitised so you have to scroll the images.  The family admitted were Campbell.

I looked at the previous entry and at the bottom of the left-hand page, it said 'Settled'.  Whether that refers to the matter being completed, money being paid, or the family being housed, I don't know.  SE might be Settled something?
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 25 May 20 11:11 BST (UK)
Thanks! It's much easier just to post the link:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1557/31363_a108954-00000?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=31363_a108954-00215
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: Mckha489 on Monday 25 May 20 11:21 BST (UK)
I wonder what the “elaborate electrical frictional machine” is.   (Bottom right of RH page)
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 25 May 20 11:22 BST (UK)
I think the landlord is possibly a Mr Hills of Belsize Park. Can't find anything for a Maunder Hills, though.
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ValJJJ on Monday 25 May 20 11:28 BST (UK)
Ah, there's a thought  Mr (Maunder) Hills of Belsize PK - thanks for that ShaunJ

Mckha489 - the elaborate machine could have been connected with her occupation.  She was a chiropodist (sometimes a euphemism, but she did sell a chiropodist chair when she was about 8 months pregnant with her first child).  Later advertised as a nurse and masseuse.  She advertised electric baths (lightbulbs in a box - an early sunbed type thing as a cure-all), and nurses sent out.  As for the frictional machine, either connected to the masseuse work, or there is an article about 'the job nobody wanted' if you care to Google it.

She had three living children plus the stillbirth that sent her insane, and was not married. 
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: gaffy on Monday 25 May 20 11:31 BST (UK)
Is there any connection between the name after Landlord and the name of the mother which appears in the section above, whose calling is 'Lets Lodgings' (ie. is it the same surname)?

Could SE indicate working on a self employed basis for that person (or that the Landlord is working on a self employed basis, rather than for a company)?

Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ValJJJ on Monday 25 May 20 11:36 BST (UK)
Hi Gaffy

Nice thought but no, the person who let lodgings was the grandmother (Mrs Matthews) to the children, and she lived in Sutton Coldfield.  It seems from the 1901 census she let room(s) in her own house.

Did they use self-employed as a term then?  Good idea.  I'll look back at other entries to see if any landlord's occupations are given.

Now I'm wondering what 'settlement papers' actually means.
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 25 May 20 11:51 BST (UK)
My 1905 London suburbs directory has a John Henry Maunder at 16 Belmont Park, Lee, SE
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ValJJJ on Monday 25 May 20 11:53 BST (UK)
Yes I spotted that and did wonder if the writer had mistakenly written Belsize.  Is it likely the writer would have made such an error though?  Who knows!
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: gaffy on Monday 25 May 20 12:37 BST (UK)

My 1905 London suburbs directory has a John Henry Maunder at 16 Belmont Park, Lee, SE


On 16 February 1900, Messrs, Dyer, Son & Hilton announced in a London newspaper that this address, up for auction, had been disposed of privately. The very next day, there was an advert for 'UNFURNISHED FLATS TO LET near Corner of Oxford-street and Tottenham-court-road ... Write, J.M. 16, Belmont-park, Lee, S.E.'

Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ValJJJ on Monday 25 May 20 12:56 BST (UK)
Could be a major landlord?

Wonder where Hill Top, Hilltop, or Hill(s) of... fits in to this?
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 25 May 20 13:40 BST (UK)
In the 1901 census, John Maunder is a civil service clerk aged  43, born Chelsea. Piece 546 Folio 150
Page 42
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ValJJJ on Monday 25 May 20 14:15 BST (UK)
I've tried looking up newspaper ads for rentals in Hanway St (no 10 was the address of the family taken in by the workhouse) but so far not found relevant ads  Also referring back to my earlier query about use of SE etc, the area of London was given as an initial i.e. W

So far:

WANTED, Drummer (Side) Must be First Class. Orchestra preferred. To teach Child. Apply, 10, Hanway-street, Second Floor, W. 
17 November 1900 - The Era - London, London, England

I suspect that was not my family, but it does indicate that the address was divided into flats.

This one amused me:
WANTED, Several Ladies, useful to Living Pictures. Write particulars and measure to VOLAPUK, 2, Hanway-street, Tottenham-court-road.
21 April 1900 - The Era - London, London, England
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ValJJJ on Monday 25 May 20 14:29 BST (UK)
I found this ad in the London Eve Standard for 10 Hanway in Feb 1902, after the family had gone to the workhouse and the mother committed to the asylum.

No clues as to the owner as it refers to solicitors only.  Pity. 
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ValJJJ on Wednesday 27 May 20 11:16 BST (UK)
I have found further adverts for auctions of houses in Hanway St, including 10 and 12 as one lot.  These came up for auction in 1897, 1898, and 1902 (yet to search the intermediate years).  They were advertised as investment opportunities, each with basement, shop, and two more floors let as flats.  It would appear from the frequent auctioning that they weren't bringing in the promised returns.  I've also found [edit: to let] ads for no. 10 three times in 1898 so either it remained empty or it had a high turnover of tenants.

So mystery Mr Maunder was probably only an owner for a short while, but I would have expected him to be eligible, as a property owner, to be in electoral registers, possibly for the constituency that Hanway St was in (I think it was Bloomsbury) in addition to his own area, but he is not popping up in the searches so far.
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ValJJJ on Monday 20 July 20 13:34 BST (UK)
Similarly perhaps the SE, which is not very clear, is something else, such as a number, eg 5 something, or another abbreviation such as J something, perhaps referring to Mr Maunder rather than the address?

I looked at the rest of the document and 5 is fairly clear, and I couldn't find anything that looked like those 'SE' letters.  E could be C but is formed differently consistently in the doc.  Actually I wonder if this was added later by another writer because it doesn't match anything. 

Is it something that means 'paid'?  The doc details the rent owed to him, and elsewhere it states who paid the arrears.


I'm now wondering if SE just means settled expenses, since there was rent owing on the flat, and the brother in law paid it.  The SE looks like it's been added later.
Title: Re: Help with an address please
Post by: ValJJJ on Wednesday 22 July 20 09:51 BST (UK)
Cracked it!  SE means, I think, seized effects.  In another Board of Guardians' ledger, the children's record, it summarises the mother's committal to the asylum and at the end states that the landlord took possession of effects for arrears of rent

But this doesn't solve the Mr Maunders mystery. Unless of course it did mean SE and the address was an error i.e. Belmont not Belsize, and it was John Maunders, as mentioned before by ShaunJ.

Or it was Mr Maunders of Belmont Park, which just happens to be in the SE district, but SE was not referring to the address but to seized effects.

Is or was there a house named Hilltop/Hill Top in Belmont Park?