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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: MattD30 on Tuesday 26 May 20 01:24 BST (UK)

Title: Thomas Martin
Post by: MattD30 on Tuesday 26 May 20 01:24 BST (UK)
I hope someone here might be able to help me with a puzzle I have.

I am trying to identify a likely christening for my ancestor Thomas Martin who married Elizabeth Chapman in 1667.

All I know about him is that his two sons, James [1667] and Daniel [1674] were christened in Fletching.

The marriage of Thomas and Elizabeth appears on FamilySearch but this only gives "Sussex" as the location so I don't know exactly where they were married.

Assuming Thomas was in his 20s or 30s when he married I have found the following possible candidates:

Thomas Martin - christened 4 February 1648 West Hoathly - son of John and Mercy Martin
Thomas Martin - christened 3 February 1632 Rotherfield - son of Henry Martin
Thomas Martyn - christened 26 May 1625 Mayfield - son of Abraham Martyn
Thomas Martin - christened 10 October 1647 West Hoathly - son of John and Barbara Martin
Thomas Martin - christened 17 July 1636 Mayfield - son of William and Alice Martin
Thomas Martin - christened 15 August 1632 Mayfield - son of Robert Martin
Thomas Martin - christened 23 August 1635 Mayfield - son of Robert and Alice
Thomas Martin - christened 21 or 22 December 1633 Rotherfield - son of Thomas
Thomas Martin - christened 3 January 1646 Rotherfield - son of John

All of these places seem within a reasonable distance from Fletching but beyond that I'm stuck.

Can anyone help here in establishing if any of the Thomas Martins listed above married or died in their respective parishes [especially if any died young]?

Can anyone offer any suggestions as to which might be the Thomas Martin I am looking for?

Or even better, can anyone offer an actual parish for the marriage of Thomas Martin and Elizabeth Chapman [date 9 May 1667]?

Many Thanks in advance

Matt
Title: Re: Thomas Martin
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 26 May 20 16:25 BST (UK)
Hi Matt
The marriage was at Mountfield. As were the baptisms
PR of marriage
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-X9XS-JW

And the BT makes it clear it is Mountfield.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D499-G3Y?i=730&cat=1021978

Also on the image is the baptism of Thomas, son of Thomas Martin + Eliz, born 13 Feb, bap 23(?) Feb 1667/68.

Indexed as James on FamilySearch, but also says Thomas on the PR.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-X9X3-6S

John
Title: Re: Thomas Martin
Post by: omega 1 on Tuesday 26 May 20 16:32 BST (UK)
The Marriage is on SMI saying Mountfield

omega
Title: Re: Thomas Martin
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 26 May 20 16:33 BST (UK)
Daniel was born 12 Aug 1674, but baptism date not given in PR. Don't think it's on the BT either.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-X9XS-1D

Son John was born 25 April 1676
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D499-GCC?i=739&cat=1021978

Again, no baptism date. Twice seems a bit of a coincidence. It does say Births and Christenings. Could the Martins have then been non-conformist, having the children's births noted in the register? :-\
John

Title: Re: Thomas Martin
Post by: MattD30 on Tuesday 26 May 20 20:03 BST (UK)
Hi Matt
The marriage was at Mountfield. As were the baptisms
PR of marriage
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-X9XS-JW

And the BT makes it clear it is Mountfield.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D499-G3Y?i=730&cat=1021978

Also on the image is the baptism of Thomas, son of Thomas Martin + Eliz, born 13 Feb, bap 23(?) Feb 1667/68.

Indexed as James on FamilySearch, but also says Thomas on the PR.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-X9X3-6S

John

Hi John

Thanks for those bits of info. It looks like Thomas and Elizabeth are not part of my family after all.

I've looked at the christening for "James Martin" dated 13 February 1666/67 in the actual registers from the links you sent and agree that it does read "Thomas" rather than "James". So I have a bit of a puzzle on my hands now.

My ancestor James Martin married Ann Packham at Fletching on 15 June 1690 as given in the BT shown here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYQF-FR?i=152&cat=583952

From what I know Elizabeth Martin was christened at Fletching on 24 May 1691 and was the daughter of James Martin and Anne Packham. The christening is shown on the BTs here

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYQN-SD?i=156&cat=583952

James and Anne were married on 15 June 1690 at Fletching.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYQF-FR?i=152&cat=583952

As far as I know Anne was christened in Fletching on 24 August 1673.

So this now becomes a question of "where was my James Martin christened"? I have checked the BT and PR pages for Fletching from the links you sent and can't see his christening. According to the info I have [from FamilySearch] he was christened on 13 February 1666/67 at Fletching.

If there's no christening for James there [I guess he was probably born between the 1660s and 1680s] then where was he christened?

Mountfield is 19 miles from Fletching so I don't think there is a connection to the Thomas Martin who married Elizabeth Chapman there.

Any suggestions where my James might have been from?

Many thanks
Matt
Title: Re: Thomas Martin
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 26 May 20 21:43 BST (UK)
Hi Matt
Can't make much headway, I'm afraid.
Did James and Ann have just the one child? Elizabeth married Mr Botting in Fletching, I now remember.
Burials - is James buried in Fletching? Am wondering if Ann came back later.
There seem to be quite a few Martins there at around the same time, so someone might be connected, but no idea how.
Maresfield is next door and FamilySearch doesn't cover that place (among others!). We could do with a sweep of the county for James Martin baptisms by a SFHG member :)
John
Title: Re: Thomas Martin
Post by: MattD30 on Tuesday 26 May 20 22:14 BST (UK)
Hi Matt
Can't make much headway, I'm afraid.
Did James and Ann have just the one child? Elizabeth married Mr Botting in Fletching, I now remember.
Burials - is James buried in Fletching? Am wondering if Ann came back later.
There seem to be quite a few Martins there at around the same time, so someone might be connected, but no idea how.
Maresfield is next door and FamilySearch doesn't cover that place (among others!). We could do with a sweep of the county for James Martin baptisms by a SFHG member :)
John

Hi John

I only have a record of the one child born  to James and Anne - Elizabeth Martin christened 24 May 1691. As you say she married John Botting in Fletching on 18 October 1714.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to locate a burial for either James Martin or Anne so far, so it is possible there are other children.

For now though it look like I have to delete Thomas Martin, Elizabeth Chapman and Daniel Martin from my tree and files.

By the way is there any sign of a marriage for a Robert Packham to a Mary between 1671 and 1673? Anne Packham was christened in August 1673 daughter of Robert and Mary Packham, but before that the only Packham children I have found are christened to Robert and Anne, the last of which was Mary christened in May 1671.

I look forward  to any other ideas for have on the Martins or any of these related people.

Many Thanks
Matt
Title: Re: Thomas Martin
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 26 May 20 22:35 BST (UK)
Hi Matt
Looking at that BT of the marriage in 1690 it seems to say Anne Packham widd?
Sussex Marriage Index
15 June 1690, Fletching
Jas Marten + Ann Packham wid

John
Title: Re: Thomas Martin
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 26 May 20 22:45 BST (UK)
Anne Packham was christened in August 1673 daughter of Robert and Mary Packham, but before that the only Packham children I have found are christened to Robert and Anne, the last of which was Mary christened in May 1671.

Hi
I haven't seen anything for Packham
They are indexed as Peckham on FamilySearch (but not looked at images), so trying that brings up
Robert Peckham + Ann Durrant, 28 January 1667/8, Buxted
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6SP7-R38

But nothing for Robert and Mary.
Title: Re: Thomas Martin
Post by: MattD30 on Tuesday 26 May 20 23:06 BST (UK)
Hi Matt
Looking at that BT of the marriage in 1690 it seems to say Anne Packham widd?
Sussex Marriage Index
15 June 1690, Fletching
Jas Marten + Ann Packham wid

John

Hi John

Can  you send me a link to that website or to the marriage entry on the PRs or BTs? I may be looking at an old copy of my Martin and Packham tree notes.

I'll double check my list of source notes to see what else I have on Anne in case I have mixed her up with someone else.

Matt
Title: Re: Thomas Martin
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 26 May 20 23:26 BST (UK)
Hi
Parish Register here, This is the one that has been partially eaten by something, but it's OK, our marriage is the very last one, bottom right
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYLH-GD9?i=129&cat=215426

Fletching BT we have too
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYQF-FR?cat=583952

If Ann was a widow it might kind of explain only the one child with James Martin. He might be a bit older than anticipated as well.
John
Title: Re: Thomas Martin
Post by: MattD30 on Tuesday 26 May 20 23:56 BST (UK)
Hi
Parish Register here, This is the one that has been partially eaten by something, but it's OK, our marriage is the very last one, bottom right
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYLH-GD9?i=129&cat=215426

Fletching BT we have too
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYQF-FR?cat=583952

If Ann was a widow it might kind of explain only the one child with James Martin. He might be a bit older than anticipated as well.
John

Hi John

Many thanks for those. I know there is a Robert Packham who married Anne Durrant in Buxted in January 1666/67. So far I have only found two children for this marriage

Henry Packham christened 14 November 1668 at Fletching
Mary Packham christened 21 May 1671 at Fletching

I did think that this Anne had died and that Robert remarried as the next "Packham" christening I have found is for that Anne Packham in August 1673 where she is described as the daughter of Robert and Mary. Could this be a different Robert?

Is there any sign of a burial for either Anne Packham [Durrant] between 1671 and 1673 or any sign of a burial for this Robert after 1671?

Do you think it's worth checking out the Durrants to see if there's any info in wills related to them?

Btw can the PR or BT for Fletching be seen on FindMyPast at all?

Matt
Title: Re: Thomas Martin
Post by: jonw65 on Wednesday 27 May 20 20:10 BST (UK)
Hi Matt
I agree with your findings re the baptisms to Robert Packham or Peckham in Fletching.
The August 1673 baptism of Anne has Mary as mother on both the PR and the BT.
But I can't see a burial of an Ann(e) / wife of Robert since the earlier baptisms. Could it be some kind of mistake made at the time?

There is a Robert Peckham burial at Fletching, 6 Dec 1673.
BT here, date confirmed by PR
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYQC-2M?i=117&cat=583952

Now I don't know that is the Robert Peckham (or Packham), but if there are no more baptisms after 1673 then it could well be.

The problem is that it is quite a while later in 1690 that we have the widow Ann Packham marrying. Well it seems quite a long time, but I suppose there is no reason why it shouldn't be her.
What happened to the children - are there alternative marriages for either Ann, mother and daughter?
I can't see that Fletching burials at this time are indexed anywhere online, so that's another difficulty, we have to see if we can make them out ourselves from the images we have.

Yes, I agree, it would be worthwhile looking for Durrant wills. Can't do any harm!
John
Title: Re: Thomas Martin
Post by: MattD30 on Wednesday 27 May 20 23:55 BST (UK)
Hi Matt
I agree with your findings re the baptisms to Robert Packham or Peckham in Fletching.
The August 1673 baptism of Anne has Mary as mother on both the PR and the BT.
But I can't see a burial of an Ann(e) / wife of Robert since the earlier baptisms. Could it be some kind of mistake made at the time?

There is a Robert Peckham burial at Fletching, 6 Dec 1673.
BT here, date confirmed by PR
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYQC-2M?i=117&cat=583952

Now I don't know that is the Robert Peckham (or Packham), but if there are no more baptisms after 1673 then it could well be.

The problem is that it is quite a while later in 1690 that we have the widow Ann Packham marrying. Well it seems quite a long time, but I suppose there is no reason why it shouldn't be her.
What happened to the children - are there alternative marriages for either Ann, mother and daughter?
I can't see that Fletching burials at this time are indexed anywhere online, so that's another difficulty, we have to see if we can make them out ourselves from the images we have.

Yes, I agree, it would be worthwhile looking for Durrant wills. Can't do any harm!
John

Hi John

It looks like something is definitely odd here. As far as I know James Martin and Anne Packham only had one child - Elizabeth Martin [my ancestor] who was christened in Fletching in 1691.

Given that the PR and BT do clearly show Anne as a widow on her marriage to James Martin the question is who was she married to before?

One option is that she was the widow of Robert Packham [or Peckham]. I know that Robert married a woman named Anne Durrant in Buxted in January 1666/67 and she was the mother of the Henry and Mary Packham born in 1668 and 1671.

I have found that there is an Anne Durrant christened in Framfield in 1640 which could fit with the marriage of Anne to Robert age wise.

Framfield, Buxted and Fletching are all about 4 miles from each other so very close.

If this Anne [Anne Durrant] is the widow who married James Martin in 1690 she would be about 51 when their daughter Elizabeth was born however. Also like you say it seems strange that if Robert died in 1673, Ann would wait 17 years before remarrying.

It definitely is a mystery but I can't really see Anne Durrant being the woman who married James Martin given that she'd probably be in her late 40s or early 50s when Elizabeth Martin was born.

I had a quick look at the East Sussex website today and so far I haven't found any sign of any suitable Durrant or Packham wills in the right area and period.

I think James Martin was christened on 13 February 1666/67 at Fletching but I don't know where that information is from and I don't have his parents noted down so that may be wrong. I will check the Fletching PR and BT to see if I can spot him.

More digging required.

Matt
Title: Re: Thomas Martin
Post by: MattD30 on Thursday 28 May 20 01:04 BST (UK)
I've just added a new post to see if anyone can locate a christening for James Martin.

Matt