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Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: gtsaviel68 on Friday 29 May 20 14:53 BST (UK)
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Hi all I am looking for information on Elizabeth Frances Everson born abt.1807 in India and her father was Mark Everson and Chrition Corella . I do not know if they are her parents.
If you can help let me know thanks you all.
Kind Regards ,
George T Saviel
29th of May 2020 :)
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What information brings her to your interest?
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baptism on FamilySearch shows them to be her mother & father
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGQW-1ZB
her marriage in 1827
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGNH-QZ4
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There appears to be 2 children:
John Thomas Spencer Colliards b. June 7 1828 Bengal.
Thomas Spencer Colliards b. June 25 1831 Bengal.
Pretty sure these are his parents:John Thomas Calliard m. Ann Spencer
Sept. 8 1796 Bengal.
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What information brings her to your interest?
One of their childern daughter Eliza Colliards
married my great-great- uncle James Henry Saviel in 1839 India.
Thanks,
Kind regards,
George T Saviel.
30th of May 2020
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There appears to be 2 children:
John Thomas Spencer Colliards b. June 7 1828 Bengal.
Thomas Spencer Colliards b. June 25 1831 Bengal.
Pretty sure these are his parents:John Thomas Calliard m. Ann Spencer
Sept. 8 1796 Bengal.
Thanks Jim.
Kind Regards,
George T Saviel
30th of May 2020
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baptism on FamilySearch shows them to be her mother & father
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGQW-1ZB
her marriage in 1827
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGNH-QZ4
Thanks for that Osprey.
Kind Regards,
George T Saviel
30th of May 2020
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One of their childern daughter Eliza Colliards
married my great-great- uncle James Henry Saviel in 1839 India
The numbers don't appear to add up.
There's only 31/32 years between Elizabeth's birth & Eliza's marriage.
It's a tight squeeze.
The only possibility is Elizabeth giving birth at 15/16 & Eliza marrying at the same age.
Where did the info come from.
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if this is the burial of Eliza Saviel, it gives a year of birth of 1823
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGGT-DP6
I'd wondered if the marriage could have been the widowed mother, but Elizabeth Frances Colliards was buried 5 Jan 1839 in the Howra Burial Ground, Fort William, Bengal aged 34 years 2 months 12 days, wife of T S Colliards Overseer of H C Salt Golahs, Sulkea.
Age in years doesn't fit with date of birth on baptism given as 25 Oct 1807
John Thomas Spencer Colliards was buried 24 April 1838 in Howra, aged 9 Years 16 days, son of T S Colliards
Thomas Spencer Colliard buried at Howrah 19 Aug 1850 aged 19 years 1 month 23 days, son of the late Mr Thomas Colliard.
Thomas Spencer Colliard died in 1841 without making a will, there is an administration & inventory. Likewise no will for his son.
There is a marriage in Madras 1833 for James Henry Saville & Sophia Deverano
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGVS-FLN
:-\
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The day & month are right just 2 years out.
An 1805 birth makes more sense.
They didn't marry until 1827 so Mr. Colliards might not be the father.
Can you see an Eliza Everson birth c. 1823 ?
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sorry, that's what I meant by the years not fitting. Not all of the events on FamilySearch are on FindMyPast which has scans of the register as well so you can check details. The baptism is an extracted record so should be ok.
Marriage 27 Jan 1827 has Elizabeth Frances as full age. There is a column for signature of parents or near friends which shows Wm Parsons, Howrah so he might not have known that she was under age.
James Henry's mother, Elizabeth, died in Madras 1828 and left a detailed will. It mentions:-
eldest son Thomas and his eldest daughter Caroline
second son William deceased, his 3 children Louisa, William & Feliciano
third son George
fourth son James Henry
late daughter Saroo? Williams, her children Matilda Pyva? & George Henry
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She may have lied about her age & added a couple of years.
I'm not seeing any connection between her & Eliza.
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agree with you there. James Henry Saviel inherited property in Madras and married there in 1833 to Sophia Deverano. He may have married for a second time but I've not found a record of it so far. There is another James Henry having children later on but he's probably a younger generation
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Eliza's burial you put up has her husband as James Saviel.
It would be interesting to see how the poster arrived at this.
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Quite so! :)
When the age at marriage is recorded on the records from British India Office, there are some young brides. Lots of teenagers and several 14.
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One of their childern daughter Eliza Colliards
married my great-great- uncle James Henry Saviel in 1839 India
The numbers don't appear to add up.
There's only 31/32 years between Elizabeth's birth & Eliza's marriage.
It's a tight squeeze.
The only possibility is Elizabeth giving birth at 15/16 & Eliza marrying at the same age.
Where did the info come from.
Hi Jim I found the informantion from 1 of The ASIATIC JOURNAL and Monthly Register for British and Foreign INDIA,China ,and Australasia online.
Kind Regards,
George T Saviel.
31st of May 2020.
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sorry, that's what I meant by the years not fitting. Not all of the events on FamilySearch are on FindMyPast which has scans of the register as well so you can check details. The baptism is an extracted record so should be ok.
Marriage 27 Jan 1827 has Elizabeth Frances as full age. There is a column for signature of parents or near friends which shows Wm Parsons, Howrah so he might not have known that she was under age.
James Henry's mother, Elizabeth, died in Madras 1828 and left a detailed will. It mentions:-
eldest son Thomas and his eldest daughter Caroline
second son William deceased, his 3 children Louisa, William & Feliciano
third son George
fourth son James Henry
late daughter Saroo? Williams, her children Matilda Pyva? & George Henry
Thanks Osprey for your help I have Elizabeth Saviel Will.
Kind Regards,
George T Saviel
31st of May 2020
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sorry, that's what I meant by the years not fitting. Not all of the events on FamilySearch are on FindMyPast which has scans of the register as well so you can check details. The baptism is an extracted record so should be ok.
Marriage 27 Jan 1827 has Elizabeth Frances as full age. There is a column for signature of parents or near friends which shows Wm Parsons, Howrah so he might not have known that she was under age.
James Henry's mother, Elizabeth, died in Madras 1828 and left a detailed will. It mentions:-
eldest son Thomas and his eldest daughter Caroline
second son William deceased, his 3 children Louisa, William & Feliciano
third son George
fourth son James Henry
late daughter Saroo? Williams, her children Matilda Pyva? & George Henry
I found that William Parson was married to a Elizabeth Spencer in 1818 India could be related to Ann Colliard.
Kind Regards,
George T Saviel
31st of May 2020.
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When you say you found the information what information did you find to link Eliza to Elizabeth.
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When you say you found the information what information did you find to link Eliza to Elizabeth.
Hi Jim, All I found was that Eliza Colliards was living with her father Thomas Spencer Colliards and William Parson who was married to Elizabeth Spencer.It could be possible that she was the daughter of William Parson .
At the time Eliza married in 1839.
Kind Regards,
George T Saviel
1st of June 2020 :)
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agree with you there. James Henry Saviel inherited property in Madras and married there in 1833 to Sophia Deverano. He may have married for a second time but I've not found a record of it so far. There is another James Henry having children later on but he's probably a younger generation
I have found that James Henry Saviel married Ellan Bolst in 1836 India she died in 1838.
Kind Regards,
George T Saviel
1st of June 2020
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What document gives the information about Eliza living with Thomas Spencer Colliard?
Where were they living?
Which of the 2 Thomases? Father died in 1841 and the son died aged 19 in 1850.
:-\
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What document gives the information about Eliza living with Thomas Spencer Colliard?
Where were they living?
Which of the 2 Thomases? Father died in 1841 and the son died aged 19 in 1850.
:-\
Hi Osprey, I was looking at Eliza marriage record , possible she was living with her father Thomas Spencer Colliards Snr or his son Thomas Spencer Colliards Jun. at the time of her marriage.
Kind regards,
George T Saviel
2nd of June 2020
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So the marriage "record" states that Eliza was residing with TS Colliards Sr. or Jr. but doesn't give
a relationship. Is this correct.
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what date is this marriage record?
where did you find it?
Please could you answer our questions so that we can help you. We do not know what sort of records you are looking at or when they date from or how reliable they are. You may be looking at actual extracted marriage records or it could be someone else's tree that may not be accurate.
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The poster said this:
Hi Jim I found the informantion from 1 of The ASIATIC JOURNAL and Monthly Register for British and Foreign INDIA,China ,and Australasia online.
Apparently the marriage took place in 1839.
Unfortunately I've failed to get any more from the poster so I don't know
what the information was or which edition the journal was.
All I've found is an announcement of the birth of a son to Mrs. T.S. Colliards in Nov. 1839.
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has he remarried then as Elizabeth Frances was buried 5 Jan 1839? Not finding records on Fibis , FindMyPast or FamilySearch.
:-\
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All I've found is the above announcement.
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what date is this marriage record?
where did you find it?
Please could you answer our questions so that we can help you. We do not know what sort of records you are looking at or when they date from or how reliable they are. You may be looking at actual extracted marriage records or it could be someone else's tree that may not be accurate.
I found the marriage record form The ASIATIC JOURNAL and Monthly Register for British and Foreign ,India,China and Australasia Vol. XXVII-New Series August-Nov. 1839.
15 Nov. Howrah India 1839 St.Thomas's Church by the Rev. Mr Norgate and Subsequently at the Roman Catholic Church by Rev. Fre.Paul Gradoli Mr James Henry Saviel of Calcutta to Miss Eliza eldest daughter of Mr Thomas Spencer Colliards Head overseer of the Salt Golahs of Sulkeah.
Kind Regards,
George T Saviel :)
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well, it doesn't seem to be in the British India Office Ecclesiastical returns which are available via FindMyPast. It is in the Bombay Times.
Death notice for Thomas Spencer Colliard senior gives his death as 26 Oct 1840 at Sulkea - from the East India Register. He may have been married before Elizabeth Frances. There are some very young brides in the marriage registers at that time, but he married Elizabeth Frances in 1827 which would make any child of that marriage barely 12 at the time of the James Henry marriage.
James Henry Saviel died aged 69 12 Feb 1878 at Calcutta, noted as late of the Preventive Service - from the Times of India.
From the burial register General Episcopal Cemeteries, Circular Road, Park St, Calcutta
2 Feb 1898 Eliza Saviel 75 years 9 months widow of James Saviel, Gangrene (left leg). She was buried on the day she died. The burial service was performed by Carl L Olsen of the Old Church, not by the Catholic chaplain who performed a burial the next day. The age in years gives a date of birth in 1822.
You could try FIBIS for other records
https://www.fibis.org/
and the collection of the British Library
https://www.bl.uk/collection-guides/india-office-records
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Some good information there.
Although I can't see a previous marriage it would make sense that he was married
before & Eliza was a product of that marriage. He then goes on to marry Elizabeth Everson in 1827.
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it's frustrating that some of the records are on FindMyPast with scans of registers and some of them aren't there at all.
I've just found one that is a hand written reference indexed from the Asiatic Journal 27 to the burial of John Thomas Spencer Colliard, son of Thomas Spencer, giving his age as 23. The burial register shows his age as 9 years & 10 months.
::)
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just remembered - the marriage entry for Thomas Spencer Colliard & Elizabeth Frances Everson notes him as bachelor.
???
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Well that kicks that into touch.
So T.S. is the father according to the marriage of Eliza but an assumption Elizabeth Everson is the mother.
Or Elizabeth Everson is the mother & given the Colliards name at marriage.
It may as close as we can get.
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quite, he is the father but she was born a few years before his marriage so unlikely to find the mother.
Or the bachelor entry was incorrect. As you say, as close as we can get.
:)
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so I had another look and found this baptism
13 Sept 1823 Louisa, daughter of Thomas Colliard, Overseer of the Salt Golahs, and of Louisa, his wife. Baptised by the senior chaplain, Presidency of Fort William.
Perhaps baptised as Louisa after her mother but known as Eliza later?
Also, perhaps this Thomas is the father of Thomas Spencer, unless you could be overseer of salt golahs at the age of 22.
:-\
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death of James Henry's previous wife
'10 Sept 1838, at Calcutta, Eleonora, wife of Mr J H Saviel, daughter of the late Mr John Martin Bolst, aged 22'
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T.S. had parents John Thomas Colliards & Ann Spencer.
So on the face of it T.S. is the father of at least one daughter by Louisa ?
It would follow that Eliza born a year earlier has the same mother unless as you say there was a name change.
Maybe T.S. & Louisa didn't marry hence bachelor on his marriage entry or as you say it's incorrect.
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so I had another look and found this baptism
13 Sept 1823 Louisa, daughter of Thomas Colliard, Overseer of the Salt Golahs, and of Louisa, his wife. Baptised by the senior chaplain, Presidency of Fort William.
Perhaps baptised as Louisa after her mother but known as Eliza later?
Also, perhaps this Thomas is the father of Thomas Spencer, unless you could be overseer of salt golahs at the age of 22.
Hi Osprey,
Thanks for that information I did not not know of Lousia his first wife.
Kind Regards,
George T Saviel.
:-\
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T.S. had parents John Thomas Colliards & Ann Spencer.
So on the face of it T.S. is the father of at least one daughter by Louisa ?
It would follow that Eliza born a year earlier has the same mother unless as you say there was a name change.
Maybe T.S. & Louisa didn't marry hence bachelor on his marriage entry or as you say it's incorrect.
Hi Jim, Thanks for that .
Kind Regards,
George T Saviel
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well, it doesn't seem to be in the British India Office Ecclesiastical returns which are available via FindMyPast. It is in the Bombay Times.
Death notice for Thomas Spencer Colliard senior gives his death as 26 Oct 1840 at Sulkea - from the East India Register. He may have been married before Elizabeth Frances. There are some very young brides in the marriage registers at that time, but he married Elizabeth Frances in 1827 which would make any child of that marriage barely 12 at the time of the James Henry marriage.
James Henry Saviel died aged 69 12 Feb 1878 at Calcutta, noted as late of the Preventive Service - from the Times of India.
From the burial register General Episcopal Cemeteries, Circular Road, Park St, Calcutta
2 Feb 1898 Eliza Saviel 75 years 9 months widow of James Saviel, Gangrene (left leg). She was buried on the day she died. The burial service was performed by Carl L Olsen of the Old Church, not by the Catholic chaplain who performed a burial the next day. The age in years gives a date of birth in 1822.
You could try FIBIS for other records
https://www.fibis.org/
and the collection of the British Library
https://www.bl.uk/collection-guides/india-office-records
Thanks for that Osprey.
kind regards,
George T Saviel.