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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: MattD30 on Wednesday 03 June 20 01:37 BST (UK)
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I hope someone here might be able to help me with a long standing puzzle regarding my Brighton based Holden ancestors.
I am trying to locate a marriage and possibly a christening for my ancestor James Holden who was problably born sometime in the late 1700s.
All I know is that he was married to a woman named Elizabeth and they had four children who were all christened in Brighton. The children were
Sarah - born 1811
George - born 1814 [my ancestor]
Hannah - born 1817
Thomas - born 1820
The only other thing I know is that James was a blacksmith.
So far I have found no sign of a christening for James or a suitable marriage to an Elizabeth in Brighton. Is anyone able to suggest a possible marriage for James and Elizabeth in the area or nearby, or a possible christening for James?
Any help or clues gratefully welcomed.
Many Thanks
Matt
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From Free Reg.
Marriage. James Holden/ Elizabeth Mockett. 13 July 1796. Cuckfield.
Children. Elizabeth 1797. Mary 1798. Jane 1800. James 1803. Parents James and Elizabeth. Father's occupation - blacksmith. Cuckfield.
Baptism. James Holden. 2 Dec 1770. Cuckfield. Parents James and Jane. BUT 10 baptisms in name of James Holden in Sussex 1765-75.
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From Free Reg.
Marriage. James Holden/ Elizabeth Mockett. 13 July 1796. Cuckfield.
Children. Elizabeth 1797. Mary 1798. Jane 1800. James 1803. Parents James and Elizabeth. Father's occupation - blacksmith. Cuckfield.
Baptism. James Holden. 2 Dec 1770. Cuckfield. Parents James and Jane. BUT 10 baptisms in name of James Holden in Sussex 1765-75.
Hi this is interesting. Do you think that this James who was christened in Cuckfield and had those children christened there between 1797 and 1803 is the same one who had children christened in Brighton?
The interesting thing here that that James [the one born 1770] was the older brother of Jane Holden [christened February 1773]. Jane was married to Stephen Holden of Hurstpierpoint in 1793 and their daughter Hannah [born 1795] married Daniel Wells in 1815. Daniel and Hannah were the parents of Winifred Wells who in turn married George Holden. That George was born in 1814 in Brighton and is the son of the James and Elizabeth I am trying to identify.
There are certainly a lot of Holdens. I have Holdens in Cuckfield and Hurstpierpoint who intermarried and there are so many called James.
Like I said, if that James born 1770 in Cuckfield is the one who was the father of George [born 1814 Brighton] it would definitely make this interesting.
Matt
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The witnesses at the marriage of James Holden and Elizabeth Mockett were James and Jane Holden. Could they have been both the parents of the groom and the boy born in 1770.?
The births in Cuckfield cease before the commencement of the births in Brighton. No name appears in both lists. In both families the father is a blacksmith.
I think it is definitely a possibility that this is George's family but with a number of related families in the same area making use of a small pool of first names it can be difficult, and sometimes impossible, to establish individual identities.
You pay your money and you make your choice!
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The witnesses at the marriage of James Holden and Elizabeth Mockett were James and Jane Holden. Could they have been both the parents of the groom and the boy born in 1770.?
The births in Cuckfield cease before the commencement of the births in Brighton. No name appears in both lists. In both families the father is a blacksmith.
I think it is definitely a possibility that this is George's family but with a number of related families in the same area making use of a small pool of first names it can be difficult, and sometimes impossible, to establish individual identities.
You pay your money and you make your choice!
Thanks for that info, I'll add it to the notes I have for the Holdens in the area.
I've now come across another James Holden christened in Brighton in 1778 son of John Holden and Susannah Roofe plus a marriage at Lewes for James Holden to Elizabeth Reeds in 1803.
I wonder if this could be the records I'm looking for. What do you think?
Matt
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It certainly looks a strong possibility.
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I've now come across another James Holden christened in Brighton in 1778 son of John Holden and Susannah Roofe plus a marriage at Lewes for James Holden to Elizabeth Reeds in 1803.
Hi
But could he be this chap?
With another marriage at St Michael Lewes - 30 Sep 1844
James Holden, full, Widower, Mariner, father John Holden, Laborer
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Mary Arnold, 25
This seems to be them in Brighton in 1851
All born Brighton
James Holden Head 72, Mariner, born Brighton
Mary Holden Wife 33
Sarah Ann Holden Daur 6
Susan Holden Daur 4
Mary Holden Daur 1
If he seems a bit old to be at sea then, baptism of Mary, 3 May 1850, has him as a Dealer in Marine Stores
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRDQ-PVJ?i=341
He is a Mariner on bap of Susan, 6 Sep 1846
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRDQ-5JT?i=81
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Sarah - born 1811
George - born 1814 [my ancestor]
Hannah - born 1817
Thomas - born 1820
Sarah Holden married John Sargant, 13 Oct 1838, Brighton.
Her father James, Blacksmith
Image here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYJS-63N?i=428
And on Xmas Day , same year, image 447, John and Sarah witnessed the marriage of Hannah Holden and John Trussler.
FamilySearch also indexes two more baptisms in Brighton to James + Elizabeth Holden
John, 26 April 1806
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NDHL-P1M
and Henry, 12 June 1808
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J7ZW-1Z4
John
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Sarah - born 1811
George - born 1814 [my ancestor]
Hannah - born 1817
Thomas - born 1820
Sarah Holden married John Sargant, 13 Oct 1838, Brighton.
Her father James, Blacksmith
Image here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYJS-63N?i=428
And on Xmas Day , same year, image 447, John and Sarah witnessed the marriage of Hannah Holden and John Trussler.
FamilySearch also indexes two more baptisms in Brighton to James + Elizabeth Holden
John, 26 April 1806
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NDHL-P1M
and Henry, 12 June 1808
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J7ZW-1Z4
John
Hi John
Thanks for those bits of info. I had the marriage of Hannah Holden to John Trussler in my files and also those other two children but I did not have the full dates only the years [and months in the case of the two christenings.
I have a feeling the name "Trussler" crops up again in the next generation possibly as a witness to another marriage but I need to check.
Matt
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I've now come across another James Holden christened in Brighton in 1778 son of John Holden and Susannah Roofe plus a marriage at Lewes for James Holden to Elizabeth Reeds in 1803.
Hi
But could he be this chap?
With another marriage at St Michael Lewes - 30 Sep 1844
James Holden, full, Widower, Mariner, father John Holden, Laborer
+
Mary Arnold, 25
This seems to be them in Brighton in 1851
All born Brighton
James Holden Head 72, Mariner, born Brighton
Mary Holden Wife 33
Sarah Ann Holden Daur 6
Susan Holden Daur 4
Mary Holden Daur 1
If he seems a bit old to be at sea then, baptism of Mary, 3 May 1850, has him as a Dealer in Marine Stores
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRDQ-PVJ?i=341
He is a Mariner on bap of Susan, 6 Sep 1846
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRDQ-5JT?i=81
It is possible that it's the same man. The only problem is why would James be described as a Blacksmith at one point and then as a Mariner later on. It looks like I need to do more digging.
Matt
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Hi Matt
It could be that the blacksmith is indeed the man from Cuckfield. And he moved to Brighton with family. Yes, the baptisms would be seamless.
The James Holden bap 1778 Brighton could be the mariner who married in Lewes in 1844. But I am just going on his details from the 1851 census, age and place of birth, and they might be wrong.
The James Holden who married Elizabeth Reeds in 1803 marked
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRNS-G2P
James married Mary Arnold in 1844 signed
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-62KH-L14
Forty years is of course a long time (it is quite a good signature though!)
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Hi Matt
It could be that the blacksmith is indeed the man from Cuckfield. And he moved to Brighton with family. Yes, the baptisms would be seamless.
The James Holden bap 1778 Brighton could be the mariner who married in Lewes in 1844. But I am just going on his details from the 1851 census, age and place of birth, and they might be wrong.
The James Holden who married Elizabeth Reeds in 1803 marked
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRNS-G2P
James married Mary Arnold in 1844 signed
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-62KH-L14
Forty years is of course a long time (it is quite a good signature though!)
Hi John
It seems we're both digging into this a bit more at the moment. The James who was christened in Cuckfield in 1770 was the son of another James Holden [born 1736 son of Francis]. What was the occupation of that James? Blacksmith! Could it be that we have two generations of blacksmiths here? Francis Holden was a mercer himself. I have his Will somewhere and other Holden wills so I might find more details in those.
Could the James who was christened in Brighton in 1778 be part of an entirely different family? I'll see if I can find out any more about him at my end too.
Do you think that the James who married Elizabeth Reeds later married Mary Arnold or do you think they are different people?
I'll do some digging in my Holden Wills to see if I can find any other clues in those.
Matt
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Do you think that the James who married Elizabeth Reeds later married Mary Arnold or do you think they are different people?
Hi Matt
I thought they might be, but because of the signature thing I now rather doubt it. Don't know of course.
Have you any possibilities for burials of James the blacksmith?
A line in a newspaper, Brighton Gazette, 11 May 1826
Can't see it, just OCR text tidied up a bit
Mary Pratt wife of Thomas Pratt, was committed Lewes House of Correction for stealing two brass candlesticks from the house James Holden, blacksmith, 29, Darby-place ..
Was he 29 or living at 29 Darby place? :-\
John
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Do you think that the James who married Elizabeth Reeds later married Mary Arnold or do you think they are different people?
Hi Matt
I thought they might be, but because of the signature thing I now rather doubt it. Don't know of course.
Have you any possibilities for burials of James the blacksmith?
A line in a newspaper, Brighton Gazette, 11 May 1826
Can't see it, just OCR text tidied up a bit
Mary Pratt wife of Thomas Pratt, was committed Lewes House of Correction for stealing two brass candlesticks from the house James Holden, blacksmith, 29, Darby-place ..
Was he 29 or living at 29 Darby place? :-\
John
Hi John
I have to say that Darby Place does not ring any bells but I am not sure at the moment where my James was living at that time. Thankfully I do have him in several poll books and other records and also other relatives so I can check those tomorrow.
It seem that John Holden died in Brighton in 1824 and left a will. I am currently examining this to see if I can get any more details to confirm a link. One thing that is for certain is that this John is the one who married Susanna Roofe as he names all the children they had and also his wife.
Anyhow that's all for today, more tomorrow if I can.
Matt
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Hi Matt
Good luck, and let us know how you get on. I'll also have a look at that John Holden will when I get a chance.
John
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Although the James Holden christened in Brighton in 1778 is still a possibility I have now come across another one.
When they married in 1803 in Lewes both James and Elizabeth are described as being "otp"
So James must have lived in Lewes for a time even if he wasn't christened there. Brighton is only 6 miles from Lewes so he could easily have moved from Brighton to there.
There is however another James to consider.
FamilySearch has a christening for a "James Holder" in Lewes dated 5 November 1766 son of James and Elizabeth. I haven't seen the original entry but I can easily see a badly written or faint "n" getting misread as a "r" especially if the writing is bad. There have been time when I haven written an "n" at the end of a word only for someone to ask "is that an r?"
Either of these men could easily the one who married Elizabeth Reeds in 1803. I'm hoping that the answers may lie in wills if I can find any.
Matt
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Hi Matt
I'm not 100% sure that the name as written in the parish register and as seen on FamilySearch is Holder, but tend to think it is.
But it is clearer on the BT, and it definitely says Holder on that. Might be just as well!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DTZ7-HHF?cat=586289
John
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Hi Matt
I'm not 100% sure that the name as written in the parish register and as seen on FamilySearch is Holder, but tend to think it is.
But it is clearer on the BT, and it definitely says Holder on that. Might be just as well!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DTZ7-HHF?cat=586289
John
Hi John
Thanks for that BT. I agree with you, it definitely looks clearly like "Holder" on here. I've compared the last letter to the "r" on words like "Daughter" and months like "September", "October" and "November" and it's clearly the same letter.
So it looks more likely that the it's the James Holden who was christened in Brighton in 1778 [son of John and Susannah] who was my ancestor. I know he had several siblings so I will see if I can find out what happened to them.
I think it might also be useful to see if I can find any wills for them as well and I think I have found a few already.
Matt