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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Benzol on Saturday 06 June 20 12:55 BST (UK)
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Henry and Susan (Henry's second wife) were married Oct/Dec quarter 1886 Holborn RD. I've traced this couple via Family Search and Freebmd through the ages. I'm left with a couple of queries.
1. Henry age 12 born Deptford, Kent, is living with his mother Mary and sister Mary in 1851 at Goldsmiths Place, St. Leonards Shoreditch Middx. Is it possible to lookup this record in its original manuscript form in order to confirm that the K. Kimpton recorded in Family Search is actually H Kimpton please?
2. Susan Kimpton (nee Trayte) has a recorded age of 7 in the 1861 census; 48 in 1901; 58 in 1911. She claims that she was born Clerkenwell. I'm unable to trace the birth. Can someone help please!
Does any Rootchatter have this couple in their family tree?
Thanks Benzol
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The 'K' does not look like the H in Henrietta lower down the page or the K in Kimpton. :-\
The other siblings of Susan have their births registered in Islington Reg District MMN Nixon. It is possible that her birth was not registered.
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Thanks Rosie99
I fear you may be correct about Susan Trayte birth record. I checked the whole of England without success but assumed I'd missed something or the Freebmd records had missed something.
I am perturbed by your answer to Henry Kimpton 1851 census. If the letter is neither H nor K what do you think it might be? Everything I know points to the letter being H for Henry but if not it breaks the link.
Benzol
ps thanks for your prompt reply
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The GRO index is the best place to look for these early birth registrations as it lists the mothers maiden surname earlier than those shown on freebmd. I do use it in conjunction with freebmd
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
It looks as though it could be an N, it is similar to Narcissus on the page before.
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Rosie99
Thanks for the advice, I'll look these chappies up in GRO. I don't think I've ever used the site; should be interesting.
The N is a disaster though! K and H is the obvious mistake. I hadn't considered N although given its the east end of London I guess 'Nry might fit. What do you think!
Benzol
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We just have to remember that the enumerator wrote down what he saw, perhaps they could not read what was written. Nry sounds good to me - do you have them in 1841
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Hi Rosie99
I was joking about 'Nry but who knows.
The story is an odd one. I came across Henry and his mother Mary in the 1841 census - Wallington Herts. The pair of them were living with a relative of mine Rose Barnes. Later on, after looking at the 1851 census, I found that Henry had a sister Mary. In 1841 she was living with one of Rose Barnes' sons who lived in London. I then found the Henry's birth recorded in Royston; strange because he claims that he was born London in all the records.
My interest lies in the possibility that Henry was the illegitimate son of another relative Thomas Barnes
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I realise that you were joking, it did make me smile. I will have to look at it tomorrow now as dinner is on it's way ;D
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I couldn't find a birth record either..... you are probably aware that she has a middle name
Susan Alice KIMPTON age 61
1914 D Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 98
died 13 Nov 1914 probate 15 Jan 1915 to husband Henry Thomas Kimpton
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Hi Ladyhawk
Thanks for your interest in this research. Some records show Susan as Susannah Alice Kimpton/Trayte.
The death record is added information, so thanks for that. I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that her birth registration didn't happen. Can't find her in the GRO or BMDs.
Henry's birth registration in the GRO does show his mother Mary having the maiden name of Steine which gives me some more info. However I don't think a Mr Kimpton was around by the time Henry was conceived. I have no idea where, when even if Mary was married at one time.
Benzol
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Henry and Susan (Henry's second wife) were married Oct/Dec quarter 1886 Holborn RD.
19 Dec 1886, St Mark, Myddelton Square (Clerkenwell)
Henry Thomas Kimpton, 48, Widower, Cordwainer, 14 Compton Street, father James Kimpton, ??
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Susan Alice Trayte, 33
First marriage in 1859 father James was a Baker, so looks like it may say that on the second.
Banns were called at St Giles Cripplegate, 6, 13, 20 Feb 1831
James Kimpton and Mary Barns
Bachelor and spinster.
Not sure that those two actually married, and no idea if any connection. :(
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Henry's birth registration in the GRO does show his mother Mary having the maiden name of Steine which gives me some more info.
KIMPTON, HENRY
Mother's Maiden Surname: STEINE
GRO Reference: 1838 D Quarter in ROYSTON & BUNTINGFORD Volume 06 Page 464
Hi
I looked at the other births with the same GRO page ref, and was puzzled by the lack of Hertfordshire baptisms.
Possible reason - I think that it is a Cambridgeshire birth, registered in the Melbourne sub-district of Royston (Wallington was Buntingford sub-dist). Others from page 464 are popping up there :)
Possibly he is this Henry Kimpton, 2, here in Litlington in 1841? And born there according to the 51 census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQRZ-R34
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Henry's birth registration in the GRO does show his mother Mary having the maiden name of Steine which gives me some more info.
KIMPTON, HENRY
Mother's Maiden Surname: STEINE
1838 D Quarter in ROYSTON & BUNTINGFORD
I looked at the other births with the same GRO page ref, and was puzzled by the lack of Hertfordshire baptisms.
Possible reason - I think that it is a Cambridgeshire birth, registered in the Melbourne sub-district of Royston (Wallington was Buntingford sub-dist). Others from page 464 are popping up there :)
Possibly he is this Henry Kimpton, 2, here in Litlington in 1841? And born there according to the 51 census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQRZ-R34
Could this be their marriage
14 Feb 1824 Place WHADDON
Groom Thomas KIMPTON, bac
Groom's residence of Litlington [BT Lidlington]
Bride Lucy Eleanor BENSTEAD [commonly called STERN], sp
Bride's residence otp
By licence or banns by lic
County Cambridgeshire
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Hi
Yes, Ladyhawk, that looks a strong possibility. Stern / Steine not dissimilar.
And seems to further rule out the 1838 birth registration.
John
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Baptism 4 Oct 1839 St Catharine Litlington
Person Henry
Father Thomas
Mother Lucy Eleanor
Father surname KIMPTON
Person abode Otp
Occupation Gent
Source FreeREG
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Benzol will have to forget about that birth registration!
First marriage in 1859 father James was a Baker, so looks like it may say that on the second.
That was in Bethnal Green, and Henry and his wife Eliza are there in 1861
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2ML-8HHY
What happened to his mum Mary?
Could she have died in 1860? :-\
KIMPTON, MARY
Age at Death (in years): 65
GRO Reference: 1860 D Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 187
That would make her a bit older than she said previously, and in her mid 40's when HT was born.
Have you got any other possibilities?
A Mary Barnes was baptized in Wallington in 1795 to James and Rose (though in 1851 Mary Kimpton said she was born in Baldock)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J332-7PJ
A lot of speculation there!
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As mentioned, Mary Kimpton, 40, Henry Kimpton, 2
with Rose Barns, 80, and other Barns, living in Wallington in 1841
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQYZ-SDB
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Bethnal Green, Henry and his wife Eliza are there in 1861
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2ML-8HHY
What happened to his mum Mary?
Could she have died in 1860? :-\
Oh yes, that is her.
Henry living at 12 Barossa Terrace, Bethnal Green. Shoe Maker.
We have a burial for Mary at Victoria Park Cemetery, 30 Nov 1860
That cemetery being in Bethnal Green, not really in Hackney :)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F47L-9QS
I couldn't find her on the index on ancestry, but got the image
Gives Mary Kimpton's residence as Barossa Tce, Cambridge Hth.
Age 65 years.
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Jonw65 and Ladyhawk
Thanks for all your efforts. You've cleared the matter up nicely.
I had the wrong Birth Registration for Henry. Have you found the right one?
Wallington is only 3 miles from Baldock which is a much larger town. Guess that's Mary said she was from Baldock.
Mary Kimpton nee Barnes was my 1st cousin 4 x removed
Benzol
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Hi
We haven't found HT's birth. I was hoping for a baptism at least.
What happened to his sister Mary, do you know?
So, yes, his mother Mary died in 1860 and was buried Victoria Pk. She might be the Mary Barns who had those banns called with James Kimpton back in 1831 (but no marriage!)
Can't be sure though
John
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HI Jonw65
Hadn't looked for daughter Mary; my next job. Also haven't discovered James Kimpton's whereabouts in the saga. Was he dead? He certainly doesn't seem to be with his wife and children.
Benzol
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Is this Henry’s death - edit to add it must be as its same address 1901/1911
Henry Thomas Kimpton, 88 New North Road Islington
Died 27 Jan 1919
Probate 29 Apr 1919 To George Victor Kimpton, Wood Machinist
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We haven't found HT's birth.
I was hoping for a baptism at least.
I've not found anything either ???
Not that this helps find Henry's birth reg. or baptism record but I noticed the following on
1901c 88, New North Road, Shoreditch
Henry Kimpton 1839 Retired Shoemaker Deptford
Susan Kimpton 1853 Clerkenwell
Henry noted as deaf, Same address in 1911 - nothing noted in column for infirmity
1891 Wenlock Street, Shoreditch
Henry T Kimpton Head 1839 Hand Sewn Shoemaker Deptford
Susan A Kimpton Wife 1853 Artificial Florist Islington
James S Kimpton Son 1869 Letter Sorter In Post Office Shoreditch
George V Kimpton Son 1874 Wood Sawyer Shoreditch
Note for Henry T is that he’s partly deaf from birth
nothing noted about Henry (T) Kimpton being partially deaf from birth on
1841, 1851, 1861 or 1871 censuses
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Baldock has come up, and also James Kimpton being a baker (haven't seen any)
So mention this in case it has any bearing
James Kimpton of Baldock, baker, and Ruth Brown of Luton, spinster, at Hemel Hempstead Meeting. Also baptismal certificate annexed
1807
Held by: Hertfordshire Archives and Local Studies
(Quaker Marriage Certificates)
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/b7cc689c-5cce-4496-becf-b6664ac899ab
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Some quaker baptisms indexed, meeting place Baldock, Royston (Hitchin)
Mary Brown Kimpton 1808
James Kimpton 1810
Ruth Kimpton 1811
Parents James and Ruth
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And burials at Baldock / Royston ..Hitchin
Ruth Kimpton buried 1811, age 39
James Kimpton buried 1835, age 59 :(
Just a line, Information by James Kimpton, baker
https://archive.org/details/hertfordcountyre02hert/page/n369/mode/2up
re a bread riot at Baldock, 1795 (see previous page)
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Can see the quaker records
i.e. Quarterly Meeting of Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire
Births
25 March 1810, James
son of James Kimpton, Baker, and Ruth, born at Baldock
(not written quite like that)
Monthly Meeting of Hitchin: Baldock, and Baldock and Royston ???
Died 24th day of 5th month 1835
James Kimpton
about 59 years
died Arlsey, Bedford
Farmer
buried 31st day of 5th month 1835, Baldock
Looks like his son James in 1851 in Arlsey.
Age 41, born Baldock, a Farmer
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGCW-BYB
That all got us absolutey nowhere!
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HI
Thanks to the three of you, I've progressed a family line that I didn't know I had. Obviously much more than I expected from my original query. Thanks for all your effort and ingenuity. I started off by thinking that Henry was an illegitimate son of Thomas Barnes, my great grandfather's brother. Turned out that Mary Kimpton was part of the Barnes clan of north east Herts anyway.
Just left with the mystery of James Kimpton, baker, the absentee husband!
Before the query is closed - Do you happen to know what the system was that allowed children born abroad to be registered for birth in the UK? Why did George Victor Kimpton, Henry's son, have 6 children birth registered in Islington when they were born Paget Bermuda? Also Ellen E Hollis (nee Kimpton), Henry's daughter, had children in Suriname registered in Shoreditch. Not sure Suriname was even part of the Empire.
Once again thanks for all the great detective work. Case closed.
Benzol
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Before the query is closed - Do you happen to know what the system was that allowed children born abroad to be registered for birth in the UK? Why did George Victor Kimpton, Henry's son, have 6 children birth registered in Islington when they were born Paget Bermuda?
Which children were they :-\
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Hi Rosie99
The question was a general one about "process". I was surprised that the children were allocated a Registration District in the UK particularly when I was unable to find the family in the census 1901 & 1911.
However these are the 6 Kimpton children|:-
Henry James b.1895
Elizabeth Alice b. 1898
Maud Beatrice b. 1903
Grace Florence b. 1905
Edith Lilian b.1910
The last child was, and this is my version of the GRO record:-
"GLADYS IRENE Kimpton was born in 1914 in Paget, Bermuda, to Alice Beatrice Tully, age 41, and George Victor Kimpton, age 40. GRO Reference: 1914 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 590"
The others all had similar details in the GRO
thanks Benzol
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The family are in Islington in 1901 & 1911. (Arlington Square)
1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWGM-THK
1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9ZR-V84
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The last child was, and this is my version of the GRO record:-
"GLADYS IRENE Kimpton was born in 1914 in Paget, Bermuda, to Alice Beatrice Tully, age 41, and George Victor Kimpton, age 40. GRO Reference: 1914 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 590"
She was Elizabeth Beatrice
Marriages Dec qtr 1892
Kimpton George Victor
Tully Elizabeth Beatrice
Shoreditch 1c 186
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Another Kimpton/Tully birth registration
KIMPTON, ALBERT VICTOR mmn TULLY
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 360
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Where does the information that the Hollis children were born in Surinam come from, the Hollis family are in Shoreditch in 1901 & 1911 all born Shoreditch
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Hi Rosie99
Thanks for looking at my last query. I much preferred your research to mine. So I repeated my search.
The result is:-
"Automatically generate story and replace current text for this event.
Birth
GLADYS IRENE Kimpton was born in Suriname to Alice Beatrice Tully and George Victor Kimpton."
This extract appeared in my Ancestry family tree after I copied Gladys Irene Kimpton from GRO. As can be seen the result is different from the one described earlier.
How about this for a computer glitch! Sorry I asked what was obviously a silly question.
Think we can now close this topic.
All the best Benzol