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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Norfolk => Topic started by: Bunbury125 on Thursday 11 June 20 17:01 BST (UK)
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Am having lots of trouble finding Alice Walters or Walker. She is on the 1881 census in Marsh House, Blofield Freethorpe Norfolk with her Grandparents James and Sarah Key.
I cannot find her birth c1869 or discover if she was actually their Granddaughter or it was just an umbrella term and her relationship was more distant. I can't find her whereabouts in 1871 also I have not found that any of James and Sarah's female children married anyone called Walters/ Walker so I can't make the links in the family tree.
So it's a mystery unless someone out there is a whizz at finding things. Can anyone help?
Thanks
B
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Census gives place of birth as London, Could this be her
WALLACE, ALICE mmn KEY
1869 Dec Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 255
Census image does not say Walters/Waters - ADDED It looks like Walless
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I wonder if this is the parents marriage
Marriages Dec qtr 1869
HANCE George Henry
KEY Susannah
RUSH Sarah
WALLACE William James
Maldon 4a 385
James and Sarah have a daughter Susan/Susanna
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I wonder if this is the parents marriage
Marriages Dec qtr 1869
HANCE George Henry
KEY Susannah
RUSH Sarah
WALLACE William James
Maldon 4a 385
James and Sarah have a daughter Susan/Susanna
Hi
Thanks for your reply I think the 1869 birth looks likely unfortunately this isn't my Susanna as she married
John High Goffin in 1862/3.
I will keep looking though.
Thanks
B
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Census gives place of birth as London, Could this be her
WALLACE, ALICE mmn KEY
1869 Dec Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 255
Census image does not say Walters/Waters - ADDED It looks like Walless
Could this be her 1871?
Infirmary Road, St Clement, Norwich, Norfolk
James Waller 1842 Norfolk, brushmaker
Susan Waller 1843 Norfolk
Susan Waller 1863 Norfolk
Elizabeth Waller 1868 Norfolk
Alice Easter Waller 1869 Lambeth Surrey
WALLER, ALICE EASTER mmn WIDDOWS
1869 J Quarter in CAMBERWELL Volume 01D Page 608
Not found family 1881 to see if Alice is with them
EDIT eventually found this family in 1881 under mistranscribed surname
Alice E Waller is with them so not who you are looking for
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Census image does not say Walters/Waters - ADDED It looks like Walless
[/quote]
Could this be her
EDIT eventually found this family in 1881 under mistranscribed surname
Alice E Waller is with them so not who you are looking for
[/quote]
Hi,
Many thanks for looking. It's certainly a mystery and yes the birthplace clearly says London on the original census as well as the name being g Wallens/Walless. FindMyPast transcriptions are often inaccurate.
I will post if I ever find out who she was.
Regards
B
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Census image does not say Walters/Waters - ADDED It looks like Walless
FindMyPast transcriptions are often inaccurate.
I will post if I ever find out who she was.
Transcriptions should always be checked with the original if it is available. The good thing with FindMyPast is that if you report the errors they will change them, I have had some done the same day.
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the birthplace clearly says London on the original census
Curiously it also has a ditto (Do) for Norfolk as the county of birth.
All those in the ED recorded as born outside Norfolk have a line of some sort through their place of birth. Made later on by a clerk (and not on Alice's entry)
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Where is Emily, daughter of James and Sarah Key, in 1871? Not at home with parents.
Born 24 June 1849, baptized at Freethorpe in July
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939F-RXLZ-L?i=218&cc=1823613
She is living with Henry George Dawes, in Islington in 1891.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:3BC2-NMM
Had a daughter Sarah in 1887. They marry at All Saints, Battle Bridge, 2 May 1898.
Bachelor and spinster, her father James Key (deceased) Farm Laborer
In 1881 in Islington, Henry G Dawes has a wife Emily, 33, it seems to say she was born Yorkshire. Two sons. But is this the same Emily? :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q279-XQP5
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Are these the only female children born to James & Sarah Keys?
Sarah 1830
Eliza 1832
Susan 1834>>>>>>>>>>see bunbury125 reply 3
Mary 1838
Mary Ann 1843
Emily 1847 >>>>>>>>>>>see jonw65 reply 8
Jane 1852
Have you accounted for each of them on the censuses either married or single ?
You mentioned Susan married 1863
1871 Old Toll Gate Cottage, Postwick, Blofield, Norfolk
John H Goffin Head 1801 Norfolk
Susan H Goffin Wife 1833 Wickhampton Norfolk
Ernest H Goffin Son 1868 Norfolk
Is this Susan Key?
1861 Toll Gate Lane, Postwick, Blofield, Norfolk
Susanna Key Head 1834 Charwoman Wickhampton, Norfolk
James Key Son 1854 Longwood, Norfolk (mmn blank)
Alice M Key Daughter 1860 Postwick, Norfolk (middle name Maria mmn blank)
Interesting that Susan named a daughter Alice
I have added a snippet of the 1881 census showing surname James & Sarah Key's granddaughter Alice
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Are these the only female children born to James & Sarah Keys?
Sarah 1830
Eliza 1832
Susan 1834>>>>>>>>>>see bunbury125 reply 3
Mary 1838
Mary Ann 1843
Emily 1847 >>>>>>>>>>>see jonw65 reply 8
Jane 1852
Have you accounted for each of them on the censuses either married or single ?
You mentioned Susan married 1863
1871 Old Toll Gate Cottage, Postwick, Blofield, Norfolk
John H Goffin Head 1801 Norfolk
Susan H Goffin Wife 1833 Wickhampton Norfolk
Ernest H Goffin Son 1868 Norfolk
Is this Susan Key?
1861 Toll Gate Lane, Postwick, Blofield, Norfolk
Susanna Key Head 1834 Charwoman Wickhampton, Norfolk
James Key Son 1854 Longwood, Norfolk (mmn blank)
Alice M Key Daughter 1860 Postwick, Norfolk (middle name Maria mmn blank)
Interesting that Susan named a daughter Alice
I have added a snippet of the 1881 census showing surname James & Sarah Key's granddaughter Alice
Hi ,
Thanks for your reply
I have traced all the children of James and Sarah here's what I think happened to the girls:
Susan Key. B 1833
She is my direct ancestor through her son James b 1854.( father James Robert Goodbody)
She had Alice and then Married John High Goffin/Goffen. Alice Maria Key Goffin married Harry Bland Greaves 1894. Susan had 3x children with John Goffin: Jane, Ernest &Alexander. After John Goffin died in 1878 Susan Married Charles Lusher in 1879.
Sarah Key b1830, became a domestic servant in London. She married James Laing in Camberwell in 1860. 2x Children Emily b1866 & Marion b1870 both died 1873.
Eliza Key b 1832 Was Domestic Servant, London she married James Anthony Wilsher or Wiltshire in 1864, one child Emily Jane b&d 1867.
Mary b1838 died 1840
Mary Ann b1843 died 1863
Emily Key
b1849 Married Henry George Dawes c1873/4 Lived in Islington, London 3x Children John Edward, Sarah Jane & Frederick.
Charlotte Key born &died 1847
Jane Key b 1852 married Robert Waters Sharman 1871 many, children no Alice.
I have checked pretty thoroughly but only online due to distance. I might have made mistakes. As it standshere doesn't seem to be any way Alice is related. Unless one of the boys indulged in some extra marital gymnastics with someone named Wallis/Wallace/Wallens and James and Sarah helped with the child? Or she was a more distant relation and Granddaughter was easiest to explained to the ennumerator.
Thanks for taking the time
To check and to reply
Regards B
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Emily
b1849 Married Henry George Dawes c1873/4
Married in 1898, as I have already posted :)
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3x Children John Edward, Sarah Jane & Frederick
But...
Baptism, St Matthias, Caledonian Road, 4 Nov 1877
Born Oct. 16. 77
John Edward
parents Henry + Emily Dawes
1 Albert Terrace
father Carman
Birth registration
DAWES, JOHN EDWARD
Mother's Maiden Surname: GAGE
GRO Reference: 1877 D Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 275
In 1881 in Islington, Henry G Dawes has a wife Emily, 33, it seems to say she was born Yorkshire. Two sons. But is this the same Emily? :-\
It's open to doubt.
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Emily Key had an illegitimate son James, baptized at Freethorpe, 18 April 1869. Abode Postwick.
Birth dates given in the register, but not for the illegitimate ones! (Does not seem to be the James registered in Milton district in 1867)
Parish register
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRP3-9JR?i=27
So that perhaps makes her a lot less likely to be the mother of Alice!
But the mystery of Emily deepens...
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Emily Key had an illegitimate son James, baptized at Freethorpe, 18 April 1869. Abode Postwick.
Birth dates given in the register, but not for the illegitimate ones! (Does not seem to be the James registered in Milton district in 1867)
Parish register
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRP3-9JR?i=27
So that perhaps makes her a lot less likely to be the mother of Alice!
But the mystery of Emily deepens...
.....Strange thing is I can't find Alice in 1871. James's birth isn't on the GRO index and the only likely candidates(as far as I can tell) for Frederick John Dawes's birth on GRO have men of Inwood or Chadwick . Also one of those Frederick's died aged 2.
Emily was the mother of Sarah Jane in 1887 but the boys had 2 different mothers it seems. Still looking to see what happened to James. Unless I have missed something (which is very possible) Something was definitely going on in that family. Also I wonder why Emily and Henry didn't marry for so long.
Lots of mystery there.🤔
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Also I wonder why Emily and Henry didn't marry for so long.
Lots of mystery there.🤔
Henry is single in 1871 (1891c Henry & Emily at 29 Brewery Road Islington)
9 Brewery Road, Islington St Andrew, Islington
John Dawes Head Wharf Clerk? Surrey
Eliza Dawes Wife Islington Middlesex
Eliza Ann Dawes Daughter St Pancras
Ann Matida Dawes Niece Shop woman Brighton Sussex
Henery George Dawes Nephew Van boy Pob Dittoed
James Harris Friend Salesman Oxfordshire
RG10 Piece 267 Folio 90Page 25
Perhaps scrolling through the above 1871 census to look to see if maybe an Emily ? was living close by
I think this might be Henry's birth entry
although FreeBMD has Brighton and page 346 :-\
Henry George DAWES mmn BREEDEN
1851 D Quarter in BRIGHTHELMSTON Volume 07 Page 246
Could it be that Henry was married and that's why they waited until 1898, even though he's noted as a batchelor
They marry at
All Saints, Battle Bridge, 2 May 1898.
Bachelor and spinster,
her father James Key (deceased) Farm Laborer
In 1881 in Islington, Henry G Dawes has a wife Emily, 33, it seems to say she was born Yorkshire. Two sons. But is this the same Emily? :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q279-XQP5
There is this entry
WEH married Frances they can be found on 1881 census in Marylebone
Sep 1877 Marylebone 1a 1191
DAWES Henry George
HARDWICKE William Edward
MULLIN Mary
SPENCER Frances
possible son for Henry & Mary Dawes nee Mullin
Henry Seymour DAWES mmn MULLIN
1879 S Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 128
Henry died
Henry Seymour DAWES age 18
1898 J Quarter in CAMBERWELL Volume 01D Page 436
At the moment I cannot place Henry, Mary & Henry Dawes (1879) on the 1881 census ???
Is this Henry's death - Do you have in on 1911c?
Henry George DAWES died age 65
1915 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 176
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in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 176
[/quote]
Is this Henry's death - Do you have in on 1911c?
Henry George DAWES died age 65
1915 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 176
Hi,
Looking through GRO indexes and censuses I think it probably was the Henry who married Emily.
Though I think there was at least 2 Henry George Dawes's in the area. Or one who had the morals of a tomcat, was possibly a bigamist and randier than the proverbial billy goat. Fortunately for him he is listed as both a horsekeeper and a carman so we know he had transport.
I can't find the one who married Mary Mullins on the census either. I can tell that the same year(1877) that Henry Seymour Dawes was born John Edward Dawes(was also born. Frederick was born in 1874 to yet another mother. As we know Frederick and John are with Henry and Emily in 1881 Possibly my Emily or another Emily born in York.
It's definitely my Emily in 1891 with the others and her daughter Sarah Jane.
What I think I can be certain of is although Emily was daughted of James Key (my 3xggg) she(having had an illegitamate child called James in the same year) wasn't the mother of the mysterious Alice whom I have yet to find. The silver lining is that I do love a mystery.😊
Thanks for your help.
Regards
B