RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lincolnshire => Topic started by: Borley Manor on Friday 12 June 20 18:42 BST (UK)
-
Hi, This is more of a nudge to see if anybody has discovered yet another earth shattering morsel from the Seward archives...??? I have been somewhat tardy in my research recently, for that I apologise to myself, but now its time to knuckle down again. I have many proven examples of the Seward family from the London area, and right up to the more recent past, however, somewhere, sometime, I had discovered another source of potential ancestry members in the Lincolnshire area. There it became a trifle sticky to prove anything to do with the Seward family. Did they, maybe a John Seward, hail from Lincolnshire before settling near to Bethnal Green, I don't know, despite trying hard. Can anybody help me please?????
-
You would need to be a LOT more specific.
You've not even suggested a century for "your" John, nor revealed any hard record data about his existence .
Pauline
-
Echoing Pauline's comments
Does this post have any connection to your previous posts?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=427697.msg2931017#msg2931017
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=37342.msg2925196#msg2925196
-
My very humble apologies to answerers. I am entirely at fault here. In my defence I had been reading lots of back dated thread posts on here, and just put thoughts to type, sorry.....
The majority of the Seward's I know about all came from the Fulham/Hammersmith area, my G grandfather was born in the Bethnal Green Workhouse in 1870. After that, I have a great many records of my own. I did have a reply from a chap (Old Gobbo) back in 2007 in which he declared that his Seward family came from Lincolnshire, and gave me several examples. Between those names and my G Grandfather being born, there is this elusive John Seward whose first reference puts him around Bethnal Green. I was striving to prove a link between this John and Lincolnshire somehow, but the trail more or less went cold, and my life also got in the way of exploration until now.
Again, I do apologise for my error before..!
-
Nope, still useless.
You've basically related that an unnamed person was b in the workhouse 1870, and that is all.
Pauline
-
You are quite correct, I am in deep error now obviously. I shall endeavour to correct my malaise as best I can......
My G Grandfather was named Edward Thomas Seward, he was born 17.4.1870. My theory was that this elusive John Seward, could be his father..???? The area fits, the name fits, he was evidently a Cabman, but after that....???? Any records that I have seen all point to a blank, but I certainly do not want to speculate at all, that is an easy road to travel from past experience with my mothers family history.....
-
Edward Thomas Seward was illegitimate. No mothers maiden name on birth entry per GRO online
Do you have his birth cert? If his mother was unmarried and surname Seward it's unlikely John Seward was his father. If you got John from Edward's marriage cert he has made up a father to appear "respectable" Very common practice with illegitimate children
-
Edward married 1889 & shows his father as John - deceased - occ platelayer. Edward was also a platelayer
Don't know where cabman fits in
-
Thank you for your speedy answers, it is much appreciated. To expand on my findings a while ago now. Edward Thomas Seward, my G grandfather was born at Bethnal Green workhouse as I have stated. I have his birth certificate, and, as you point out, the acceptable, respectable front may well have been offered up. According to a census, he had put his place of birth as being at Hythe....??? I found a John Seward on another census as being near to Bethnal Green, and as a Cabman. I have so much paperwork here from a time ago that has to be sorted out. I confess to being not up to speed with all this at the moment. I had to restart somewhere though. I have to now place all this stuff in some sort of chronological date order. I have so many addresses and so forth, and a wealth of Williams, Edwards and Charles either as middle names, or first names. My own middle name is Edward, my fathers was Edward Charles, my elder brother is another Edward, but is called George to make it easier...??????? so the saga continues..... Thank you again..
-
Who is Edwards Mother on his Birth Cert?
Trish :)
-
IF - and it's a very big if - his father was John Seward - then his supposed occupation was platelayer not cabman according to the 1889 marriage cert.
He was also supposed to be deceased by 1889. If you check deaths from 1870-1889 only one John Seward death in the London area which was in 1874 aged 73yrs!!
-
Seward family from the Morton area of Lincolnshire. Eleanor Seward married my 5 x great grandfather, William Cope on the 2nd January 1749 at Pickworth. I have attached an image of the marriage entry in the register.
-
I have spent a goodly amount of time today despite the heat, sorting, or attempting to sort out the myriad documents about the Seward family. I think I may have now got my head around it all again. When I was previously engaged in this research, I found it extremely top heavy with characters that I had never heard of, some of whom died young and ceased to appear anymore.
I have strived to piece my original findings together in some sort of order beginning with my G Grandfather Edward Thomas Seward born 1870, died 1961. He married a Alice Elizabeth, or Elizabeth Alice nee Butcher 3rd March 1889
According to Ancestry back in 2006, he was born in Bethnal Green workhouse, but I myself trawled through numerous records and discovered he had told other people that he was born in Hythe for some reason..???
This is where the elusive John comes in according to Ancestry. Edward Thomas Seward father was apparently John Seward born : WFT Est 1822-1852. I had an accomplice that was also researching the Seward family. They informed me that John G Seward was indeed a plate layer, and was born 1840 at Boston Lincolnshire, and was seen/recorded as being in Yorkshire 1881-1891..???
Then, which muddies the entire file, we have another John Seward being born in 1808, yet another plate layer, at Ruckington Lincolnshire.
The birth certificate for Edward Thomas Seward, my G Grandfather does not have a fathers name on it, but is mentioned on his marriage certificate as deceased.
As I said above, I spent an inordinately long time trawling through massive lists of BDM's, searching for proof of all this. I came up with a John Seward residing in Bethnal Green at some address. I failed miserably after long hours and forgot to write it all down. This particular John Seward was a cabman. I seem to recall that his address was where some stables once existed. In retrospect, I may well have simply lost the plot at this juncture....!! I have a heavy box file with other scribblings that I have not consulted as of today, but I will do, not that I expect much to be revealed except photographs. Except that this etheral John Seward, was rumoured to have been a deeply religious character... I have what is supposed to be a photograph showing him and his wife. Very austere looking.....
I truly thank those who have answered my call, and I hope I answered your queries. I am again at a loss this evening, I need sleep tonight...!!!! The reply I received through Rootschat from AllanUK is very interesting. He mentions a female Seward by the name of Eleanor from back in the 1700's. She evidently hailed from the Morton area in Lincolnshire. I must seriously invest in an older map/atlas book.
-
What does it say for mother on his birth cert? In full.
-
Hi, I have a much copied birth certificate here, it is not exactly very well scripted, but in its defence it has: 1870 Bethnal Green Middlesex officially along the top. It then has the number 243, seventeenth April 1870. workhouse. Name Edward Thomas, boy. The name of the father is entirely blank. The mother entry is just Elizabeth Seward. From that point on it is almost unreadable, but I am told it is to do with those in charge of the workhouse.
My dilemma is, was Elizabeth, the mother, a natural Seward, i.e. a daughter Seward, who was not married to the father? Where did the name Seward come from ??? and the plot simply becomes unwieldy after that....
I do hope this will be of some use. Thank you for your interest.
-
99.9% probability she was an unmarried Elizabeth Seward - born with the Seward name.
-
Borley Manor
Two very simple questions - Yes or No answers will suffice
Have you found Elizabeth SEWARD with son Edward Thomas on the 1871 census?
Have you found Edward Thomas SEWARD on 1881 census?
-
Lady Di, To be honest I have to answer no to both questions. To excuse me from not doing so is an embarrassment to me. I had limited resources back in the early 2000's, and the cost of obtaining copy certificates etc, put a certain strain on my capabilities. I had masses of interest, but the costs were too high. Now, I have resumed the search upon retirement, the costs are still all encompassing, but I also have to contend with this shut down business. I was planning on utilising the local library services for access to records, but until they re-open, who knows. It would appear that computers are the last thing on their minds....... It is intensely frustrating as you can imagine.
-
You cannot view a birth or death cert at a library or records office - you have to buy a copy. Birth certs up to 1919 & death certs to 1957 are available in pdf format for a reduced price of £7.
Parish records are available both online and at RO's and libraries but you need to check whether they have the particular records you want. Many libraries offer free Ancestry access
Unfortunately - FH research can be costly and sometimes you cannot move forward in your research without buying certs
-
Did your Edward marry Alice Butcher? If so - a tree on Ancestry has his mother as Elizabeth Alice Seward b 1852. There is a birth on freebmd matching those details.
There are 2 deaths - 1920 Chelsea & 1932 Brentford matching her age
I think you really have to accept that Edward was illegitimate - his mother was single and surname Seward
-
I think that Elizabeth SEWARD is the same person mentioned in the removal orders for Bethnal Green. In 1869 she is 24, pregnant, born at Charlotte Street, Whitechapel to James and Sarah, sister of Mrs Jane BANCROFT.
You will find Elizabeth with her family in 1851:
Class: HO107; Piece: 1522; Folio: 17; Page: 26
1861
Class: RG 9; Piece: 256; Folio: 186; Page: 47
Looking at birth registrations, Sarah's maiden surname was PARKER.
I believe that Edward Thomas is with his mother and John CLEMENTS in Fulham in 1881.
Class: RG11; Piece: 68; Folio: 97; Page: 18
John CLEMENTS 50, Railway labourer, Jersey
Elizabeth CLEMENTS 37, Bethnal Green
Edward CLEMENTS 11, Bethnal Green
Thurza CLEMENTS 3, Bethnal Green
CLEMENTS, THIRZA ELIZA
Mother's maiden surname: SEWARD
GRO Reference: 1877 S Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 483
Elizabeth also had a sister named Thirza Eliza.
When Thirza CLEMENTS married in 1901 to John CHANTER she named her father as John CLEMENTS, a platelayer. I cannot see a marriage between John CLEMENTS and Elizabeth SEWARD.
Debra :)
-
99.9% probability she was an unmarried Elizabeth Seward - born with the Seward name.
I agree with that. And the 'John Seward' on his marriage is in fact his mum's husband John Clements.
-
This may be Elizabeth's birth, named after the street she was born in:
SEAWARD, ELIZABETH CHARLOTTE
Mother's maiden surname: PARKER
GRO Reference: 1846 M Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 04 Page 363
Debra :)
-
Reviewing my original findings from years back, I had found a Thomas Daniel Seward born c.1825. He was married to a Fanny (late Brady), formerly (Davis). He was a cabinetmaker.
They had a child Elizabeth Alice Seward 13.11.1852 in Shoreditch. They resided at 5, Craven Street.
The confusion reigns supreme as I sit here typing away....!!!!
-
Oooh!!! I really don't know what to think. However, I wonder if any of the numerous off-springs of Edward would have any more information? I will try and pick one at random and see where it leads. It does seem possible that the Bethnal Green cabman is likely but why wasn't he on the birth certificate if so, even if he was dead?
Help!!!!
-
There is NO KNOWN BIOLOGICAL FATHER! No cabman, no anything.
You've been directed towards this, accept it!
-
Interesting information provided by Dundee because:
1901 census: Edward Seward, wife Alice + 2 children lived at 35 Garvan Rd Fulham/Hammersmith
1901 : Thurza Clements marr June 1901 to John Chanter. Her address was 35 Garvan Rd Fulham
1911 census: Edward Seward etc at 35 Garvan Rd
1919 : Edward Seward's 2nd marriage - his address was 35 Garvan Rd
Appears that Edward's half sister married from his home in 1901.
-
I think this is Garvan Road, a bunch of Sewards outside for what seems a wedding. The Edward Thomas Seward is central right with his hand in his waistcoat pocket. My father is the young chap at the very top centre in front of the window...... (http://)
-
Hi Borley Manor.
Have you now worked it all out from what Dundee and Lady Di have found for you?
Edward was illeg as you know.
His Mother Elizabeth by 1881 is with John Clements.
On his Marriage Cert Edward uses his Step Father Johns 1st name and Occp as his Father but to save embarrassment.
His half sister Thirza Clements married from his and Alices home in 1901
Lovely photo :)
-
Possible Death Reg;
Sep 1886
Clements Elizabeth age 43*** Fulham 1a 177
-
Trish 1120, I am certainly trying hard to keep all this in one piece, however, I return to a copy birth certificate I have here.....
Reviewing my original findings from years back, I had found a Thomas Daniel Seward born c.1825. He was married to a Fanny (late Brady), formerly (Davis). He was a cabinetmaker.
They had a child Elizabeth Alice Seward 13.11.1852 in Shoreditch. They resided at 5, Craven Street.
The address is so logical, 5,Craven Street, Hoxton, Newtown Mddlesx to not be part of the Seward clan. Names that sort of relate, geographical reasoning, missing fathers etc....... the entire situation is so confusing....!!!! So near, yet....!!
-
Elizabeth Alice Seward was the daughter of Daniel & Fanny (according to familysearch)
She was born 13 Nov 1852, bp 17 Dec 1852 St John the Baptist (Abode=Craven St)
Elizabeth Alice Seward died aged 4 months and was buried 8 Mar 1853 St John Hoxton
This Elizabeth had nothing to do with your family and was not the mother of your Edward.
edit - apologies for the upper case - have rectified
-
Thank all you good people who answered my call. It is more or less completed now, just a few hundred more ancestors to track down now....!!!! I had so many Herrings of a multitude of hues to contend with and not a lot of experience.... thank you again....
-
The address is so logical, 5,Craven Street, Hoxton, Newtown Mddlesx to not be part of the Seward clan.
With apologies - I don't know London streets … What was the possible link between Craven Street Hoxton & Garvan Road Fulham? I thought they were on opposite sides of the city (but then map reading was never my strong suit!)
-
Lady Di, I did my mothers family tree a number of years ago. During the seemingly impenetrable details pertaining to the research, I discovered many, many spelling errors, writing errors, print errors, mainly by those recordists that should have known better, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Blinkered as I no doubt was by the Seward name during research some years back now, I found this other Seward somewhere in the official records. Assuming Cravan was a misspelling of Garvan, mere mention of a Elizabeth Alice on the birth certificate, plus, like you, not being conversant with London at all, I assumed the link was within my family........ alas I was again in error. I currently flagellate myself myself on the hour with a slipper made of steel...... to assume in family history is the road to perdition....
I do hope I have not upset, or caused unnecessary time wasting on my behalf in this confusing Seward saga to anyone. I like to think that out of it all, I now have some degree of accuracy and confirmation in my familial history. For that, I thank each and every one of the contributors to my quest, thank you.