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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: annie1515 on Monday 15 June 20 14:46 BST (UK)
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William McRoskell was supposedly the father of the following children born to him and Elizabeth Cooper. I cannot find a marriage between the two.
Lois Selina 1863 West Ashford
Rose Ellen 1866 West Ashford
Violetta Anne 1869 Isle of Wight
St Clair Caffyn abt 1870 in Edinburgh (cannot find anything on scotlandspeople.)
Elizabeth went on to marry(?) John Tutt- I cannot find a marriage record.
their daughter Mabel Beatrice Tutt was born 1879 in Winchester.
I cannot find a death for William McRoskell and this is a very uncommon surname. According to his children's marriage records he was a silversmith.
Any help would be greatly appreciated! I'm wondering if he was from another country and anglicised his surname? Or this was just a completely fake name?
Elizabeth appears to be Elizabeth Harriett Cooper born 1841 in East Grinstead, mother's maiden name Caffyn (hence her son St Clair Caffyn McRoskell)
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Have you ever found him on any census to determine his birthyear & birthplace?
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Lets start with 1871 census. Ref RG10 1688 48 4.
William ROSS 46 Watchmaker born Liverpool
Elizabeth Ross 26 born??? Sussex
Rose Ross 5 Ashford Kent
Violetta Ross 2 Newport Hampshire
St CLARE Ross 2 months Colchester Essex (recorded as son)
John
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Good find John ;D
Birth Mar qtr 1871
ROSS St Clare Caffyn
Colchester 4a 314
1881 also has St Clare as born Colchester
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q274-XQP3
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Blimey Carole, by the time I had typed up his birth you have already found it typed & posted . Well done
John
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oops, sorry rosie99, it was you found him.
John
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That is OK John, I certainly don't mind CaroleW getting the credit she works hard on here ;D
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She does indeed rosie, just to add St Clare's mmn was Cooper.
John
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Got him.
1881 census ref RG11 1440 8 9
William FRAZER 56 Watchmaker born Liverpool
Esther Frazer 34 born Staines Middlesex.
Death: William MCROSKEL Frazer aged 63(c1824) JQ 1887 Watford 3a 288
John
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Have you ever found him on any census to determine his birthyear & birthplace?
Before reading the comments below, no, I had not found him on any census.
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Lets start with 1871 census. Ref RG10 1688 48 4.
William ROSS 46 Watchmaker born Liverpool
Elizabeth Ross 26 born??? Sussex
Rose Ross 5 Ashford Kent
Violetta Ross 2 Newport Hampshire
St CLARE Ross 2 months Colchester Essex (recorded as son)
John
Wow, thanks for this. This looks like it definitely could be him. I'm very confused why St Clair says he is born in Edinburgh on other records then?
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Good find John ;D
Birth Mar qtr 1871
ROSS St Clare Caffyn
Colchester 4a 314
1881 also has St Clare as born Colchester
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q274-XQP3
Thank you so much for this! He certainly has an unusual first name
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Got him.
1881 census ref RG11 1440 8 9
William FRAZER 56 Watchmaker born Liverpool
Esther Frazer 34 born Staines Middlesex.
Death: William MCROSKEL Frazer aged 63(c1824) JQ 1887 Watford 3a 288
John
Wow, thank you again!
I'm so confused what his actual surname is then???
Was he a Frazer, a Ross, a Mcroskell or something else!!
Also, if he had died in 1887, but Elizabeth was living with John Tutt on the 1881 census?
So either this was bigamous/she didn't marry John Tutt/she divorced or left William?
I'm still searching for a marriage between John Tutt and and an Elizabeth, but drawing blanks, so I'm wondering if they actually did marry?
Because if this is William he is claiming Esther is his wife in 1881?
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Hi, What do others think of the transcription of RG09 448 61 55. Anc* has William M Roshell. FindMyPast has William M Boshell. To me it looks like Roskell(e) I know it records born Belper Derbyshire but this man has told may lies and he is a watchmaker.
John
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Opening post says all childrens marriage certs show him as a silversmith
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Opening post says all childrens marriage certs show him as a silversmith
I quiet agree CaroleW with your comment re silversmith. I wonder if he made cases for gentleman's watches?
Without evidence/proof I believe him to be one William ROSKELL born c1824/1825 Liverpool. There are in Liverpool around the time of his birth a very large family of Roskells who are Watchmakers/Watch Manufacturers, gold and silversmiths, jewellers. Cannot tie him in though. FindMyPast has some newspaper articles about a William Roskell(cannot read as no subscription) that appear could be him.
I wonder what the birth certificates of Lois, Rose, Violetta & St Clare record as his "occupation"
John
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I definitely think I'm going to order the children's birth certificates as I would find that to be very interesting too!
Thank you very much for the census suggestion. I zoomed in on it and I agree it could look very much like Roskell too. If this is him it does seem a very random place to suggest he was born! (I guess it could have been recorded wrong)
I have just zoomed in on one of the newspaper articles (from 1856), and it says William Roskell, son of Robert Roskell. He's purchasing machinery from someone in Derbyshire (also a watchmaker). Which could possibly explain why he said he was born in Derbyshire if this him on the census.
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on St Clair C McRoskell's marriage 14 May 1898 father is given as William McRoskell deceased Watch Maker
Suz
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The William Roskell mentioned in the newspaper with father Robert died in 1859. His son Robert was already running the business
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Hi, What do others think of the transcription of RG09 448 61 55. Anc* has William M Roshell. FindMyPast has William M Boshell. To me it looks like Roskell(e) I know it records born Belper Derbyshire but this man has told may lies and he is a watchmaker.
John
Also looks as if this man was married - but no spouse shown in household. If this is the right man, it might suggest an earlier marriage which prevented him from marrying Elizabeth Cooper.
Incidentally - if you look to the K in watchmaKer, then it is similar to the k/h of Roskell. A comparative H can be found in wHitebread in the surname line below.
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Fuller details of St Clair's marriage
Parish records
Page 145 entry 290
St John the Evangelist Stoke next Guildford Surrey 14 May 1898
St Clair Caffryn Mc Roskell 26 Bachelor Horsekeeper of Holy Trinity Aldershott father William McRoskell dec Watchmaker
Emily Jane Bristow 28 spinster of Stoke Within father William Bristow dec Builder
Witnesses Henry James Bristow
Mabel Beatrice Mc Roskell
all signed
so know William died pre 1898
and a witness was Mabel Beatrice Mc Roskell -could this be Mabel beatrice Tutt b 1879 Winchester??
Suz
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Probably a red herring, but there is a William Roswell, Watchmaker, at 121 Southwark Park Road, London in 1885
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Rose Ellen McRoskells marriage in 1889 to Arthur John Clayson MAY narrow down her fathers death even further. I still think the death of William Mcroskel Frazer in 1887 is a very strong contender as death age all but matches 1861/1871/1881 census.
The William Roswell in 1885 could well be him.
John
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Probably a red herring, but there is a William Roswell, Watchmaker, at 121 Southwark Park Road, London in 1885
Just to eliminate--married Harriet Harwood 28.11.1847. He died 1904. Appears on census after the marriage of StClare.
John
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The William Roskell mentioned in the newspaper with father Robert died in 1859. His son Robert was already running the business
I found lots of records after posting this online and realised they couldn't be the same person. I wonder if there is some kind of relation however.
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Fuller details of St Clair's marriage
Parish records
Page 145 entry 290
St John the Evangelist Stoke next Guildford Surrey 14 May 1898
St Clair Caffryn Mc Roskell 26 Bachelor Horsekeeper of Holy Trinity Aldershott father William McRoskell dec Watchmaker
Emily Jane Bristow 28 spinster of Stoke Within father William Bristow dec Builder
Witnesses Henry James Bristow
Mabel Beatrice Mc Roskell
all signed
so know William died pre 1898
and a witness was Mabel Beatrice Mc Roskell -could this be Mabel beatrice Tutt b 1879 Winchester??
Suz
I was wondering this too. I did find a marriage for a Mabel Beatrice Tutt in 1901.
on the 1911 census Elizabeth Cooper says she has only 1 child still living, so presumably she died between 1901-1911.
I'm tentatively suggesting she married Harry Horace Osman, and that she died in 1903 (although the birth year is out by a couple of years.)
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Bit of a puzzle or am I missing something. Elizabeth Mcroskell/Ross/Tutt nee' Cooper does record 5 children born only 1 surviving by 1911. I can account for only 3 deaths pre 1911, Lois Selina 1863- 1867, St Clare Caffyn 1870-1904 and probably Mabel Beatrice (Tutt) 1879-1903. Still alive is Violetta 1869-1944. The mystery is Rose Ellen. She marries Arthur John Clayson and has at least 4 children with him mmn Mcroskell between 1890-1896. They then appear on 1891 census in Woolwich & 1901 census in Suffolk. Husband Arthur John Clayson dies 1903. Cannot find a remarriage or death pre 1911 for Rose Ellen. The only fitting death I have found is Rose Ellen Clayson aged 32 in 1898 in Faversham, but how would she then appear in 1901?? or is Arthur living with another Rose in 1901? Answers on a postcard!!
John
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Weirdly, there is a Rose Clayson, bn abt 1866 in Faversham (wife of Henry Clayson) that I got excited about for being the death in 1898.
Then I realised that I had just found her on the 1901 census ::)
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The mystery is Rose Ellen. She marries Arthur John Clayson and has at least 4 children with him mmn Mcroskell between 1890-1896. They then appear on 1891 census in Woolwich & 1901 census in Suffolk. Husband Arthur John Clayson dies 1903. Cannot find a remarriage or death pre 1911 for Rose Ellen. The only fitting death I have found is Rose Ellen Clayson aged 32 in 1898 in Faversham, but how would she then appear in 1901?? or is Arthur living with another Rose in 1901? Answers on a postcard!!
John
Am I being really daft? Is the Henry Clayson on the 1901 census the same person as Arthur John Clayson? RG13; Piece: 1776; Folio: 188; Page: 5
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Am I being really daft? Is the Henry Clayson on the 1901 census the same person as Arthur John Clayson? RG13; Piece: 1776; Folio: 188; Page: 5
Same birthplace, same occupation age is also correct. Mabel the daughter is also consistent on census.
It must be US now and not just me!!
John
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Am I being really daft? Is the Henry Clayson on the 1901 census the same person as Arthur John Clayson? RG13; Piece: 1776; Folio: 188; Page: 5
Same birthplace, same occupation age is also correct. Mabel the daughter is also consistent on census.
It must be US now and not just me!!
John
And a random 5th child called Harold?!
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I think I have found Arthur/Henry's service record on FindMyPast (81st Field Battn, RA, Shoeing smith) RA number 42778. Not a military buff, but it looks like a move from regular army to reserve. Ending regular army engagement on 22 May 1896, and becoming a reservist on 11 Sept 1896.
He's 5ft 6, sallow complexion, blue eyes, fair hair, and has a scar on the back of his head. He confirms that he is married.
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Just found his first attestation papers.
Signs up as Henry Clayson at Chatham in May 1884. Signs his name as Henry Clayson. Does note his children (with the mysterious 5th child!!)
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Ah! did Frederick William Nichols die aged 36 in 1900 and Arthur John/ Henry Crowley then got together with Rosa/Rose and they then appear in 1901 with a mix of children?
Added: that would make the death of Rose Ellen in 1898 a safer bet.
John
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That would certainly make sense via the Rose/Rosa issue!!
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Forget it. Frederick & Rosa appear on 1911 census. Teach me to take my time.
John
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Forget it. Frederick & Rosa appear on 1911 census. Teach me to take my time.
John
Nooooooooooooo!
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I don't think that it's Saward, if you look at the E of Elizabeth I think that it could be Edward.
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This is starting to perhaps clutch at straws, but there is a William Clayson in the Cottage Home, Cheriton (also known as the Elham Union Cottage Home) and then there is a 15 year William Clayson in the Home Children immigration records https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/immigration/immigration-records/home-children-1869-1930/immigration-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=77240 which would tie in.
I wonder if there is anything else to be wrung from the army records - would there be a pension etc paid, and any record of spousal death there? (I'm really not au fait with the full range of military records at all)
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I realise that I am becoming slightly obsessed with the Clayson element, and that is deviating from the OP but I am enjoying untangling who he was!
Arthur John Clayson was baptised Oct 8th 1865 in the parish church of Elham, to William and Barbara Ann Clayson, labourer, Elham.
In 1871 Arthur J Clayson is living with his parents, William and Barbara, and his siblings William (18) and Mary A (13) and a lodger Susan E Baldrock (20). They are living at Back Street, Elham.
In 1881 Arthur Clayson (15) is an apprentice blacksmith to Thomas Mercer, 3 Queen St, Folkestone. Arthur is living with Thomas and his family. Meanwhile, William Clayson senior is living at The Row, Elham with daughter Mary A (unm, 23) and two grandchildren Hector J Clayson (7) and Norman P Clayson (2). Barbara A Clayson is shown as mother in law to William and Susan E Ambrose (presumably the Susan E Baldrock from 1871) in Leeds, Kent.
In 1884 Henry Clayson enlists in the Royal Artillery, at Chatham, aged 19.
1889 - Rose and Arthur John marry. Arthur's father is given as William Clayson, labourer
1891 - Appears on census as Arthur
1896 - re-enlists in Royal Artillery as Henry.
1901 - appears on census as Henry
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Spidermonkey, whilst you have become obsessed with Arthur I have just started(sad man that I am) following the children and will post what I find later today. Well done with what you have found. One question, what site did you use to view the marriage image of Arthur and Rose Ellen and what is her fathers name and occupation and what date did they marry, is father deceased?
John
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Arthur and Rose's marriage was on Ancestry - they married in Aldershot on June 8th 1889. William Mc Roskell is a silversmith and not marked as deceased.
Violetta Mc Roskell was one of the witnesses as was a William Gludden (?) his signature attached for deciphering!
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More tangents - but I wonder if this story helps solve the Arthur/Henry mystery......
On the 1881 census, Arthur is an apprentice to Thomas Mercer, with a fellow apprentice Clement Long, who in 1880 ran away from Thomas Mercer due to being mistreated. Magistrates ordered him to finish his apprenticeship and so he appears on the 1881 census.
I wonder if Arthur saw which way the wind was blowing and did a runner too later on - changing his name and joining the army so that he couldn't get caught?
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"a most improper man to have an apprentice"
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Hi Anne, I may have info that helps you if you are still looking? I believe Violeta is my great, great grandmother. 😄
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Hi, I really enjoyed this post whilst trying to help Annie with others. Would love to know the details you have. Annie has not been online since September 2021 but should get an e-mail re your post.
John
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I have added lots of information about Violetta Anne McRoskell on FamilySearch. She is my Great Grand Mother.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/GM63-PRL (https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/GM63-PRL)
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Many thanks for the link, interesting.
John
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Rootymasters we are related then! I have her birth certificate to William Cox but you possibly already know this then ?