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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: Maria McCulloch on Tuesday 16 June 20 16:50 BST (UK)
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Is there anyone able to let me know where I can access copy marriage certificates for Scotland Prior to 1855.
I am a member of Scotlandspeople site and I can only see the Banns for marriages. This does not give me the couples parents names.
I need these to confirm I have the right people as there are too many William McCulloch and Thomas McCulloch's in Scotland.
Any help would be appreciated.
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Before 1855 there were no marriage, birth or death cerficates in Scotland .
The church records were the only records kept of these events - in some areas there were excellent records kept while in others there was nothing.
It was this patchwork which added pressure to introduce Civil Registration
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What period are you looking at? If the individuals lived to 1855 or later, their death certificates will name both parents.
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Is there anyone able to let me know where I can access copy marriage certificates for Scotland Prior to 1855.
You can't access pre-1855 marriage certificates because they don't exist.
I am a member of Scotlandspeople site and I can only see the Banns for marriages. This does not give me the couples parents names.
Before 1855 those are the only records, and they rarely give the name of the bride's father and almost never the name of the groom's father, let alone those of the couple's mothers.
When and where did your Thomas and William McCulloch marry and who were their wives?
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Thanks everyone;
Forfarian The first one I am looking at is, the parents of Thomas McCulloch (Weaver), (I think this was his trade) born 1790 and Elizabeth Gray born 1791. Thomas and Elizabeth were married on 27th Aug.1808 in Ayr, Scotland, Scotlandspeople Ref 578/ 80 235. If you could work any magic that would be fantastic.
If you do find anything would you be able to let me know where it was found, So I can look for any others without pestering you, or anyone else.
Thanking you in anticipation.
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Before 1855 there were no marriage, birth or death cerficates in Scotland .
The church records were the only records kept of these events - in some areas there were excellent records kept while in others there was nothing.
It was this patchwork which added pressure to introduce Civil Registration
I do not have any Scottish examples to prove the point as I have not attempted to collect Scottish certificates before civil registration but I believe it could be done.
The common mistake is thinking only civil registration produced certificates, but that is incorrect any official authentication of an event is a certificate, all a certificate does is certify the event occurred, I have many examples of pre 1837 English certificates even early certificates made after 1837 seldom carried the word certificate on them.
see
http://anguline.co.uk/cert/marriage.html
I do have an 1881 certificate of an1846 Scottish birth but this will probably not be accepted by the purists as this was (A) produced in 1881 and (B) authenticated and signed rather than certified and signed but it was legal proof of the event
The legal definition of certify being - "to formally and officially state that something is true, especially by signing an official or legal document" which the document below does.
http://anguline.co.uk/cert/birth.html (scroll to 3rd document from foot of page)
There are links to examples of other types of certificates here
http://anguline.co.uk/cert/certificates.htm
Cheers
Guy
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The first one I am looking at is, the parents of Thomas McCulloch (Weaver), (I think this was his trade) born 1790 and Elizabeth Gray born 1791.
Where did you get these dates of birth?
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I do have an 1881 certificate of an 1846 Scottish birth but this will probably not be accepted by the purists as this was (A) produced in 1881 and (B) authenticated and signed rather than certified and signed but it was legal proof of the event
You could have 1001 post-hoc documents for legal proof of an event, but they can only contain information which was recorded in some form or other at the time when the event took place, for example church records or family bibles or newspaper announcements. Sometimes even the recollections of the people involved, in the absence of a written record. I'd have no problem accepting such a document.
If you choose to call it a certificate, that's fine, but it isn't especially helpful in the context of this particular query.
The fact remains that information about the parents of a couple getting married was not routinely collected in Scotland before 1855, when formal marriage certificates were introduced, and in England, Wales and Ireland the full details of the parents of a couple getting married are still not recorded at the time of marriage - only the names and occupations of the couple's fathers are on an English, Welsh or Irish marriage certificate.
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Post 1855 it was possible to obtain birth death or marriage certificates for events between 1800 & 1855. IF the persons involved had taken the necessary steps to have the events recorded in the “Register of Neglected Entries”.
The RNE records are relatively rare due possibly in part to the expense involved - a fee had to be paid in addition to the cost of presenting the required evidence To the local Sheriff
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Post 1855 it was possible to obtain birth death or marriage certificates for events between 1800 & 1855. IF the persons involved had taken the necessary steps to have the events recorded in the “Register of Neglected Entries”.
But they could only include the information recorded in the RNE. I have seen hundreds of RNE entries and they are very similar to the baptism and banns information recorded in the conventional way in the OPRs. In particular, the ones I have seen have not included information about the parents of couple getting married.
The RNE records are relatively rare due possibly in part to the expense involved
There are RNEs at the end of 255 of the 901 OPRs. That is, 28% of parishes' registers have a RNE.
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Hi Maria
Thomas and Elizabeth had at least 6 children after their marriage?
From the OPRs:
William 1809 - likely died and name reused
Thomas 1811
Janet 1813
Elizabeth 1816
William 1818
David 1823
There may be more that don't show in the registers.
Sometimes you can get clues from the name used for the earlier born children, referred to as Scottish naming pattern (the Irish liked to use it too!). Lots of links online on this, one here www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm Just note that it wasn't always used, or in the prescribed order but worth thinking about and considering.
Monica
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Could this be Elizabeth with two of the sons in 1841:
Elisabeth Mccullock 55
William Mccullock 20 plumber
David Mccullock 20 blockmaker
John Mcgregor 5
Address: Portland Street, Kilmarnock, Ayrshire
David's age is slightly out if so.
I think son William still showed as a plumber in Kilmarnock following his marriage to Sarah Gray Wallace.
Monica
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Where did you get the approx birth years for Thomas and Elizabeth? If a guesstimate, maybe they were born ealier.
Something to consider and maybe check. The last child we had for them was David in 1823 born in Ayr. There is a death showing on SP (OPRs) for a Thomas McCulloch, aged 52 20/02/1825 in Ayr. A possibility maybe? Not sure though if the OPR death or burial entry will give you any details to let you confirm either way though.
Added: there is an entry on the SP Wills & Testaments for a Thomas McCulloch, innkeeper in Ayr in 1825. You mentioned that your Thomas was a weaver, so maybe not connected.
Monica
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MonicaL
Thank you for that information. I did have 5 of the children for Elizabeth, but did not have the 1st William, I will look into this.
The 1841 census looks as if these are the same people. I will look at that as well.
Thank you for your help on this it is much appreciated.
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I found the christening dates for both of them on the FamilySearch site.
What does ORP stand for?
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OPRs are the Old Parish Registers. Family Search have the indexes. The original images from the registers are available to view on Scotlands People.
Monica
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With the names we have so far for the children, one possibility for Thomas? From FS www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY88-K38
Added: Quite a number of children showing as born in Ayr for this couple in that time range.
Monica
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I found the christening dates for both of them on the FamilySearch site.
Hmmm. Never trust anything you find online, especially on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FamilySearch and similar web sites, unless it is an image of an original certificate.
I had a look at the marriage on FS. It is obviously an index reference to the original on SP.
However, it looks as if someone has looked for a possible birth and come up with a Thomas McCullock baptised in Barr in 1790, father David McCullock. However as you yourself have pointed out, there are a lot of Thomas McCullochs in Scotland, and there is no evidence on FS to prove that this Thomas McCullock is the Thomas McCulloch who married Elizabeth Gray. He could be, but he may not be. There are five deaths registered after 1855 of Thomas McCullochs who were born in 1790 plus or minus two years.
The same person has come up with a possible candidate for Elizabeth: Elisabeth Gray, parents Robert Gray and Janet McNinch, baptised in Newton in 1791. Again, there is no specific evidence that this is the Elizabeth Gray who married Thomas McCulloch. She could be, but she may not be. There are 29 deaths registered after 1855 of Elizabeth Grays who were born in 1791 plus or minus two years.
Further, the Thomas McCullock baptised in 1790 would have been just 18, and the Elizabeth Gray baptised in 1791 would have been only 17, in August 1808. A marriage of a 17-year-old and an 18-year-old was certainly possible, but it would have been very unusual. Most young men could not afford to keep a wife, never mind a family, until they were well into their 20s.
I note that the source of these baptisms is cited as 'Government record', which demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the surviving pre-1855 records.
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FreeCen 1841 has this entry www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a141ca2f4040b9d6e0574db/thos-mcculloch-1841-ayrshire-ayr-1786-?locale=en
1851 has this entry www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5902799ae9379091b11772f9/thomas-mcculloch-1851-ayrshire-ayr-1782-?locale=en I think it is the same Thomas as in 1841. Interesting to see that he showed as married in the 1851 entry, but living by himself.
Monica
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Thanks again.
I am a member of my heritage so I will have a look in the morning. I would have thought that if there were any matches they would have sent me a notification, so perhaps they do not have one.
I will let you know if I find anything.
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I am a member of my heritage so I will have a look in the morning.
MyHeritage is like Ancestry, FindMyPast, FreeCEN and all the other web sites except Scotland's People. It has transcriptions and indexes, not a complete set of originals. You really need to look at the original document on Scotland's People.
I would have thought that if there were any matches they would have sent me a notification, so perhaps they do not have one.
Judging by the number of supposed matches they sent me when I was a member of MyHeritage, if they haven't sent one it must be because they don't have one.
See also https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0