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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: miss s on Friday 19 June 20 15:59 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I was wondering if any pro's out there could help me, I cant find anything for this person. She is my husbands Grt x2 Grandmother.
Sophia Anderson, she married John Watson (my husbands grt x 2 Grandfather)
They had a child called George Watson. I can see from George Watson's marriage cert they are both still alive in 1905, George lived in St Cyrus at the time, Im wondering if Sophia and John did too? Johns occupation is noted as a ploughman.
George died in 1931, Sophia is still noted as Sophia Skene, Previously Watson, M.S Anderson
Any help would be greatly appreciated as I seem to have hit a brick wall
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When did Sophia and John Watson get married, how old was Sophia when she married?
When was George born?
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George was born around 1878, cant find a birth cert for him.. so all I have is his marriage and death cert with the info of his parents. Therefore, Im also not sure about the date of marriage for his parents, Sophia and John
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There is a death in 1885 In Aberdeen for a Sophia Anderson other name Watson in Scotland’s People .
Might be worth a look
Norma
Forget that too old to have a son in 1878
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I seen that, but she is still alive at the point of her son George's wedding in 1905 and on George's death cert in 1931 she is remarried as Sophia Skene previously Watson
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Did George have a middle name, also what was his occupation on his marriage?
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miss s, you seemingly have George's marriage cert. Who did he marry and have you found them in 1911 census. Is so does his dob and birth place check out?
John
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Does this help? Or does it muddy the waters further?
1881 Census: 63 Hutcheon St, Aberdeen
James WATSON Head 34 Stone Cutter Crimond, Aberdeen, Scotland
Jane WATSON Wife 26 Old Machar, Aberdeen, Scotland
Ann WATSON Daur 10 Old Machar, Aberdeen, Scotland
Colin WATSON Son 8 Old Machar, Aberdeen, Scotland
James WATSON Son 3 Old Machar, Aberdeen, Scotland
Sophia WATSON Niece 2 St Nicholas, Aberdeen, Scotland
Sophia WATSON OR ANDERSON Mother Widow 70 Rathen, Aberdeen, Scotland
Elsie WATSON Sister 31 Shop Girl Crimond, Aberdeen, Scotland
Bathia WATSON Sister 28 Machinist Crimond, Aberdeen, Scotland
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On George's marriage certificate, was she Sophia Watson MS Anderson or Sophia Skene previously Watson MS Anderson?
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What about this?
1881 Census: Old Boatmans House, Slains, Aberdeenshire
James ANDERSON Head 52 Farm Serv Logie Buchan, Aberdeen, Scotland
Annie ANDERSON Wife 60 Turriff, Aberdeen, Scotland
George WATSON Grandson 4 Ellon, Aberdeen, Scotland
Ann MELVIN Grand Daur 2 Fintray, Aberdeen, Scotland
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George was born around 1878, cant find a birth cert for him..
George's death was it this this one?
George Anderson Watson, aged 56 died in Aberdeen in 1931.
So, working from this, birth year c. 1875-6.
As has been mentioned, if you I would look to his 1911 census entry to check his place of birth. John Watson/Sophia Anderson may not have been married and his birth could be registered under Watson or Anderson. The more you can narrow down the info, hopefully the closer you get to finding the right birth for him.
Monica
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From the 1881 census that Forfarian posted, that George's birth in Ellon is registered twice in 1877, under Watson and Anderson.
Monica
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Forfarian, I think you are spot on likely!
Going back the line of James Anderson and wife Ann, the 1861 census shows:
James Anderson 34 farm grieve b. Logie Buchan, Aberdeenshire
Ann Anderson 42 b. Gaunie, Banffshire
Sophie Anderson 6 b. St Fergus, aberdeenshire
William Anderson 3
James Anderson 1
Address: Artrachie, Logie Buchan, Aberdeenshire
Monica
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Possible birth details for this Sophia:
Sophia Anderson
Birth Date: 5 Aug 1854
Baptism Date: 20 Aug 1854
Baptism Place: Longside,Aberdeen
Parents James Anderson and Ann Reaper
Monica
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1861 Census: Logie Buchan
James Anderson, 34, born Logie Buchan
Ann Anderson, 42, born Gamrie
Sophia Anderson, 6, born St Fergus
William Anderson, 3, born St Fergus
James Anderson, 1, born Logie Buchan
Children of James A and Ann Reaper
Sophia, born 5 baptised 20 August 1854, Longside
William, born 10 September 1857, St Fergus
James, born 1859, Logie Buchan
Monica - messages crossed, we are both on the same track.
In 1871 James, Ann, William, James and another child, Thomas, are in Ellon.
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I don't think Sophia went on to marry a Skene. I think it might instead be a John Cheyne. 1901 below:
John Cheyne 40 farmer cattleman b. Methlick, aberdeensh
Sophia Cheyne 44 b. Longside
Mary Bella Cheyne 12
John Gordon Cheyne 10
William Cheyne 8
Sophia Cheyne 6
Edward Cheyne 3
Sophia Mcd Melvin 11mth granddaughter**
Ann Anderson 82 mother in law b. Turriff, aberdeensh (she shows as born Turiff in later censuses)
Address: Cottage Drums (1st Cattleman's), Foveran Aberdeenshire
** The Ann Melvin who showed as granddaughter in 1881 with grandparents James and Ann looks to also have been Sophia's daughter
Sophia is working away from home in both 1871 and 1881.
Monica
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Spot on. Sophia Anderson married John Cheyne in St Cyrus in 1885.
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Did George have a middle name, also what was his occupation on his marriage?
No middle name. His occupation on marriage cert is Ploughman, lived in Chapelfield St Cyrus, married in Logie Pert. Married on 2 June 1905
Sophia is still alive at this point according to the marriage cert and her name is still Sophia Watson
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I keep trying to post photos of the certificates I have but it wont let me as says the attachment is too big. What can I do to reduce this as it would be easier perhaps if I could post the 2 certs that I have?
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Did George have a middle name, also what was his occupation on his marriage?
Forgot to add, he died in Dundee in 1931 and his occupation at that point was a jute mill stoker
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George was born around 1878, cant find a birth cert for him..
George's death was it this this one?
George Anderson Watson, aged 56 died in Aberdeen in 1931.
So, working from this, birth year c. 1875-6.
As has been mentioned, if you I would look to his 1911 census entry to check his place of birth. John Watson/Sophia Anderson may not have been married and his birth could be registered under Watson or Anderson. The more you can narrow down the info, hopefully the closer you get to finding the right birth for him.
Monica
nope, he died in Dundee in 1931
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The Cheyne family look to have headed off to Canada c. 1912. Their 1916 census entry in North Battleford, Saskatchewan, Canada:
John Cheyne 58
Sophia Cheyne 62
John Cheyne 26
Mary Cheyne 28
William Cheyne 24
Edward Cheyne 19
Sophia C Cheyne 16
James Brooks 8
Archebald Davidson 0
There is family tree on Ancestry (you need a subs to view) which includes a photo with the whole family including Sophia Anderson - www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/39737803/person/410200039597/facts
From this, husband John Cheyne's death is shoiwing as 4 Feb 1926, Edam, Saskatchewan, Canada and Sophia's as 25 Feb 1926 Saskatchewan, Canada.
Monica
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Married on 2 June 1905
Sophia is still alive at this point according to the marriage cert and her name is still Sophia Watson
Maybe he didn't want to have to say that his father was still living and that his mother was married to someone else? Why not get a copy of that marriage certificate? It would settle the question of Sophia's marriage if it gives her parents as James A and Ann Reaper.
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Re Monica's reply #15
Anne Melvin was indeed another of Sophia Anderson's children.
b. 26 Dec 1878, Fintray. d. 17 Jun 1946, Craig.
Father was George Melvin, b. 26 Sep 1859, Tarves; d. 7 Nov 1919, Ellon. He and Sophia did not marry, but both signed Anne Melvin's birth registration.
The Sophia McDonald Melvin mentioned above was Anne Melvin's first child; b. 26 Nov 1900. Anne went on to marry David Thom Findlay; they had 11 children.
The last of these was George Watson Findlay, my father. Anne Melvin seems to have commemorated her monther's spouses in this way: two other boys have the middle name Cheyne.
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In the marriage registration of 2 June 1905, George Watson states that his parents are John Watson and Sophia Watson, M.S. Anderson.
But as noted above, Sophia Anderson married John Cheyne on 6 Jun 1885, and on that document she is Sophia Anderson, Spinster. They and most of their children emigrated to Canada in 1912 (following son James who had migrated in 1904-5 according to Canadian censuses). So she was Sophia Anderson to 1885, then Sophia Cheyne.
It seems therefore that George Watson concealed (or didn't know) the fact that his mother and father were not married. Given that her name is given as Skene in his death registration, they may well have lost touch.
Interestingly Sophia's other illegitimate child Anne Melvin did exactly the same thing - claimed her parents were married but they never did.
I have all the certificates from Scotland's people, but of course cannot publish them here - crown copyright and all that.
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WOW!!! this is actually amazing, I have had these certificates and been looking at this on and off for a year now and you guys crack this overnight!!
Thank you guys so much for this,I really do appreciate all your help. Just had a look at the photos on Ancestry, so cool!
Now onto the next mystery.. how do I find out who John Watson was then!?
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In the marriage registration of 2 June 1905, George Watson states that his parents are John Watson and Sophia Watson, M.S. Anderson.
But as noted above, Sophia Anderson married John Cheyne on 6 Jun 1885, and on that document she is Sophia Anderson, Spinster. They and most of their children emigrated to Canada in 1912 (following son James who had migrated in 1904-5 according to Canadian censuses). So she was Sophia Anderson to 1885, then Sophia Cheyne.
It seems therefore that George Watson concealed (or didn't know) the fact that his mother and father were not married. Given that her name is given as Skene in his death registration, they may well have lost touch.
Interestingly Sophia's other illegitimate child Anne Melvin did exactly the same thing - claimed her parents were married but they never did.
I have all the certificates from Scotland's people, but of course cannot publish them here - crown copyright and all that.
This is so interesting Gordon, thank you so much. I would have never found this all out myself!
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WOW!!! this is actually amazing, I have had these certificates and been looking at this on and off for a year now and you guys crack this overnight!!
Thank you guys so much for this,I really do appreciate all your help. Just had a look at the photos on Ancestry, so cool!
Now onto the next mystery.. how do I find out who John Watson was then!?
I note on George Watson's birth cert that his father John Watson has signed the birth cert and under his name is Green of Udny. Udny Green is a small village in Aberdeenshire. His occupation is also a farm servant.
Ive had a look at some of the census records and I can see plenty of John Watsons in the area but none are Farm Servants.
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There is one showing in 1881 at the farm of an Alexander Forrest:
John Watson, 36, farm servant b.Fyvie, Aberdeenshire
Address: New Craig, Udny
Hard to say if he is the correct one with out more details (and not sure really where/how you can confirm further).
Have you found George yet in 1911 to confirm his birth place?
I haven't found him yet in 1891 but in 1901 he is showing as a 24yr old ploughman I think. Born in Ellon and at Skilmafelly, Savoch, New Deer.
Monica
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Would be good to double check the original for 1881 where John Watson showed as born c. 1845. Other censuses I think show him born c. 1855.
From 1901:
John Watson 46 Farm Serv (ploughman) b. Fyvie
Ann A Watson 24 wife
William A Watson 3
Alexander Watson 1
Address: Cottage, Udny
1891 has him as a farm servant in Milton Ardlethen, Ellon.
1861 is an odd one. Shows him as a 6yr old brother to a 34 yr old George Thompson at Mains Of Tullo, Meldrum.
Monica
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I note on George Watson's birth cert that his father John Watson has signed the birth cert and under his name is Green of Udny. Udny Green is a small village in Aberdeenshire. His occupation is also a farm servant.
If it is his original signature, you could try to cross check with that possible marriage to wife Ann A Watson from 1901 and compare signature? You may be unlucky though and find that the image for this image is actually for a copy of the register page and not the original where the registrar/clerk has rewritten the entry as a copy and therefore the signature won't be the original
Forfarian, you are my go to person for all of this ;D I am right in saying this?
Monica
Added: Possible marriage - John Watson and Ann Andrew in Savoch in 1896
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Forfarian, you are my go to person for all of this ;D I am right in saying this?
Yes.
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Thanks for confirming ;)
Monica
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There is one showing in 1881 at the farm of an Alexander Forrest:
John Watson, 36, farm servant b.Fyvie, Aberdeenshire
Address: New Craig, Udny
Hard to say if he is the correct one with out more details (and not sure really where/how you can confirm further).
Have you found George yet in 1911 to confirm his birth place?
I haven't found him yet in 1891 but in 1901 he is showing as a 24yr old ploughman I think. Born in Ellon and at Skilmafelly, Savoch, New Deer.
Monica
I found the 1901 census from New Deer too but also struggling for 1911.
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I note on George Watson's birth cert that his father John Watson has signed the birth cert and under his name is Green of Udny. Udny Green is a small village in Aberdeenshire. His occupation is also a farm servant.
There is another John Watson on the 1881 census and his occupation is noted as a butcher.
He married an Isabella Saughter, I think this John Watson signature is very similar to the one on George Watson's birth cert. His wife Isabella dies shortly after being married, and again the signature is similar
If it is his original signature, you could try to cross check with that possible marriage to wife Ann A Watson from 1901 and compare signature? You may be unlucky though and find that the image for this image is actually for a copy of the register page and not the original where the registrar/clerk has rewritten the entry as a copy and therefore the signature won't be the original
Forfarian, you are my go to person for all of this ;D I am right in saying this?
Monica
Added: Possible marriage - John Watson and Ann Andrew in Savoch in 1896
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Monica,
I got your PM, im going to send you an email later with a copy of the certs that I have downloaded if thats OK to check as Im getting totally lost.
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Sure :) I can help and add the relevant snips here to your thread.
Do you know what children were born to George and wife Jane after their marriage in 1905 up to the 1911 census? Might help with trying to find them in 1911 with additional names.
I can see there was a Jane Rae Watson born in 1904 (before their marriage?). Also a Mary Rae Watson in Dundee in 1911 (do you know if this was before or after the 1911 census?).
Monica
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Sure :) I can help and add the relevant snips here to your thread.
Do you know what children were born to George and wife Jane after their marriage in 1905 up to the 1911 census? Might help with trying to find them in 1911 with additional names.
I can see there was a Jane Rae Watson born in 1904 (before their marriage?). Also a Mary Rae Watson in Dundee in 1911 (do you know if this was before or after the 1911 census?).
Monica
Yes, he married Jane Rae Watson in 1905 in Logie Pert, and they had a child called Mary Rae Watson (born 1911) , John Lawson( Watson, my husbands grandfather, (born 1924, Jessie Watson, Jean Watson, Isabella Watson, George Watson and Elizabeth Watson.
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I have got the certs now. Thank you for sending :)
So, in summary, we have the original signatures for Sophia Anderson and John Watson on their son George's 1877 birth cert. However, Sophia's marriage cert (from SP) is a copy from the original so it does not show her signature, simply states 'signed' (written by the clerk).
I thought to look at John Watson's marriage to Ann Andrew that we have been discussing. Drat! That also was a signed copy of the register so no original signature for John Watson showing there. I have also checked the birth cert for first born son to John Watson and Ann Andrew. The birth was registered by father John Watson and he has signed the birth register.
Below are the two signatures. On the left is the signature for George Watson's birth for father John Watson. On the right is the signature for William Andrew Watson's birth in 1897 for father John Watson.
Same signature/John Watson?
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Yes! Definitely the same signature
I have got the certs now. Thank you for sending :)
So, in summary, we have the original signatures for Sophia Anderson and John Watson on their son George's 1877 birth cert. However, Sophia's marriage cert (from SP) is a copy from the original so it does not show her signature, simply states 'signed' (written by the clerk).
I thought look at John Watson's marriage to Ann Andrew that we have been discussing. Drat! That also was a signed copy of the register so no original signature for John Watson showing there. I have also checked the birth cert for first born son to John Watson and Ann Andrew. The birth was registered by father John Watson and he has signed the birth register.
Below are the two signatures. On the left is the signature for the birth of George Watson's birth for father John Watson. On the right is the signature for the birth of William Andrew Watson's birth in 1897 for father John Watson.
Same signature/John Watson?
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That is what I think too ;) Looks to be George's Dad then....and Happy Father's Day to him tomorrow!
Below is a snip from his marriage cert that I viewed to include his parents:
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Just realised...he likely called your George after his father George Watson?
Monica
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1861 is an odd one. Shows him as a 6yr old brother to a 34 yr old George Thompson at Mains Of Tullo, Meldrum.
The joy of Ancestry transcripts ::) FreeCen are showing John Watson as a boarder in the household...not brother! www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/590269a5e9379091b1d61864/john-watson-1861-aberdeenshire-old-meldrum-1855-?locale=en
I think you may need to get ready for fun and games with his ancestry and what happened to his parents....!
Monica