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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Daler68 on Thursday 25 June 20 03:00 BST (UK)
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Bit of a long shot, but the more I think on this, the more I think my great great grandfather may have been adopted, and I am wondering is there a record of adoptions in the 1800's in Ireland?
The reason I ask, is that my Gx2 grandfather was 'allegedly' born in Donegal, Ireland in 1816 - but no records exist of birth/baptism (that I can find) although he is splatted throughout the 1901 census records, and all those records match together with the rest of the family history...
His mother is 'apparently' Anne Reilly, and his father is just simply unknown.....But I have just come across a record of a Mary Anne O'Reilly, 'having a son' that matches my Gx2 grandfather's name, year of birth, and country of birth but ..... she is married to a man with a completely different surname to my Gx2 grandfather, and all there other 10 children are listed as "his" surname.....and I just wonder, if / possibly my Gx2 grandfather was adopted into that family?? It won't answer how/why different surname's but...
Out of all the birth/baptism records I have looked at, the above is the absolute closest (full name, year and country of birth) that I have come to matching my family together.....
Any information would be greatly appreciated.....thanks Dale
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I have no idea what 'splatted' means. Formal adoption did not exist in the 1800s so you won't find any records. Church records in Ireland are not complete, more so if the family weren't Catholic and even then some parishes don't have surviving records going back as far as 1816 (if that is the correct year of birth).
You would be easier helped if you can give his name and anything you already know about him.
Debra :)
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Hi Debra,
"splatted" - Australian slang for 'spread across' - sorry :-P)
The family were Roman Catholic, and I can find records for his child (Charles Rodan), and so on down the line, but I have no birth/baptism records or details of James Rodden, born 1816 in Donegal Ireland (so no idea whom his father was/is) James' mother is 'apparently' Anne Reilly (again, no records to confirm this)..James apparently married a Catherine O'Donnell in Carlow, Ireland 1845 approx - (again no records to confirm that either) I do have the death certificates both both James & Catherine.
I am only after his birth/baptism details - not census, not court records, not dog licence records etc - I have all of those already.
James & Catherine are my missing link's....
Thanks Dale
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You need to be specific about the source of your information.
"..my Gx2 grandfather was 'allegedly' born in Donegal, Ireland in 1816"
What is your source for the location and year? Is it a marriage certificate....death certificate?
"..His mother is 'apparently' Anne Reilly, and his father is just simply unknown"
What is your source for mother's name? Is it a marriage certificate....death certificate?
If you are researching the origins of Charles RODAN it would be useful to know what information you have about the birth, marriage and death of Charles RODAN.
What documentation do you have for the BDM events for Charles RODAN.
"..I do have the death certificates both both James & Catherine."
Can you please list all the information on the death certificate for James.
Can you please list all the information on the death certificate for Catherine.
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Daler this is for other researchers, I know you probably have all this info
Some of the information comes from Charles Rodan's obituary in The Murchison Times, WA 22 Dec 1834 giving an age of 81 born in Donegal. no mention of his parents or other relatives back in Ireland.
this gives him a birth c1853
There are numerous trees on Ancestry with the names James and Catherine being his parents
siblings on the trees
Brian 1842
Michael 1857
Grace 1860
Bridget 1863
Hannah 1865
Elizabeth 1866
James died (according to the trees) 1883 and Catherine in 1904
Alternative spelling Rodden used
Daler68
There are gaps in the early births, there is no indication that they have the same mother.
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Just checked the birth record for Hannah Rodden 1865 reg district Milford and her parents are DANIEL RODDEN and CATHERINE O'DONELL
can't find a reg for Elizabeth 1866
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James Rodan married in 1876 aged 31, bachelor, living at Cloonmore and gives James Rodan (farmer) as his father
a witness was an Edward O'Donnell
reg district Dunfanaghy co Donegal
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sister Mary married Francis McCarry in 1869 as a minor, she also gives James Roddan as her father. Address Cloonmore
Charles names one of his Children Brian Bernard.. same name as his brother and nephew, so the odds are they are the correct family. Not sure about Hannah being correct though
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jc26red reply #4. Typo in Charles Rodan's death year - wrong century.
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Just checked the birth record for Hannah Rodden 1865 reg district Milford and her parents are DANIEL RODDEN and CATHERINE O'DONELL
can't find a reg for Elizabeth 1866
Elizabeth registered 4th Jan. 1867 in Dunfanaghy Superintendent Registrar's District. Born Clunmore 30th Dec. 1866. Parents James & Catherine (formerly O'Donnell). James' occupation was farmer.
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His mother is 'apparently' Anne Reilly, and his father is just simply unknown.....But I have just come across a record of a Mary Anne O'Reilly, 'having a son' that matches my Gx2 grandfather's name, year of birth, and country of birth but .....
There might have been any number of women named Anne/Mary Anne Reilly/O'Reilly/Riley having children in Donegal around the same time, most of them undocumented.
For example, one of my Irish ancestors was Annie. She has been incorrectly identified in online trees with the result that she has multiple online identities and several sets of parents. One tree owner conflated 2 women with the same name and allocated her 15 children, born over a 30 year period in different parts of a county (2 named James btw). The truth is that her "official" name wasn't Anne, it was Honor, a very popular name in her part of Ireland at the time. An Irish Ann in another line may have been Hannah or Hanora - she couldn't read or write. No baptism record for that Ann.
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If the family had always lived in Clonmore/Cloonmore and used the church at Clondahorkey (where Charles' siblings were married) then there are no known church records before 1877.
https://www.johngrenham.com/records/rc_church.php?churchid=1010&parish=Clondahorkey
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1010
https://www.townlands.ie/donegal/kilmacrenan/clondahorky/ards/clonmore/
http://donegalgenealogy.com/Clondahorkyproj.htm
Debra :)
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Hi all, wow, just a bit of information you have all thrown up...
Right this minute - the ONLY concrete evidence I have in my possession here at home are the death certificates of Charles, James & Catherine.
The death certificates states;-
Charles Rodan, died 13th Dec 1934, 81yrs, Melville Hotel, Yalgoo, Western Australia, Australia
(Charles married Mary Anne Emily Cresswell Eaton, 20th Dec 1894, Dongara, Western Australia, Australia - father listed as James Rodan, farmer
James Rodden, died 10th June 1883, 67yrs, Dunfanaghy, Donegal - Informant Brian Rodden, son, Cloonmore. (on attached photo of headstone, James is listed as James Rodan, with date of death 20th June 1883 - this headstone is apparently in Doe Cemetary, and again, I can not get anyone to verify this)
Catherine Rodan, died 03rd June, 1904, 87yrs, Dunfanaghy, Donegal - Informant Brian Rodan, son, Cloonmore.
All the information I have relating to the marriage of James & Catherine - in Cloonmore in 1845 ... is pure conjecture, and family legend - no one has seen or found any actual records relating to this.
The same applies to his 'mother' Anne Reilly and also applies to the births of James & Catherine - James born 1816 Faugher, Donegal, Ireland / Catherine born 1817 Mayo, Ireland.
Especially on ancestry.doc there are a multitude of tree's that states Anne Reilly is James' mother, with several others stating mother Anne Reilly and stating that Owen Rodden (b 1789, Mecklenburg, North Carolina, United States) is his father.
I have made contact with most of the owners of the family tree's on ancesty.com, and again no-one actually has any documents regarding the births & marriage of James & Catherine.....
thanks everyone
cheers Dale
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Catherine Rodan, died 03rd June, 1904, 87yrs, Dunfanaghy, Donegal - Informant Brian Rodan, son, Cloonmore.
All the information I have relating to the marriage of James & Catherine - in Cloonmore in 1845 ... is pure conjecture, and family legend - no one has seen or found any actual records relating to this.
The same applies to his 'mother' Anne Reilly and also applies to the births of James & Catherine - James born 1816 Faugher, Donegal, Ireland / Catherine born 1817 Mayo, Ireland.
Catherine Roddan was in son Bryan's household at 1901 census. House 4 in Clonmore (Ards, Donegal) www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Ards/Clonmore/1172605
According to the census Catherine was 82, born Donegal, was married and could read and write.
Bryan was 59, born Donegal, married, could read & write.
Also in household were Bryan's wife + children - Mary, Bernard, Michael, Grace, James, Charles and Daniel.
The form was filled in by the census enumerator and Bryan didn't sign it. Information may not be accurate - e.g. Catherine down as married. Ages of many old people on 1901 census were incorrect. The language column is blank.
It was the only family spelled Roddan. Most common spelling in Donegal was Rodden on 1891 census.
Only 5 households in Clonmore. One was Edward O'Reilly & family; children Catherine, John, Bernard and Maggie.
Was Bernard a popular name in Donegal?
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Hi Maiden,
Not sure if Bernard was a popular name or not - some docs refer to Bernard as Brian (or Bryan) and the spelling varies from Roddan, Rodden, Roden, Rodan etc......I know, for me, it is sure as hell confusing when a Brian has a son called James, who has a son called James, and Brian, and they in turn have a Charles who has a son called James :-P)
cheers Dale
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Something you might want to explore further, sometimes it pays to go sideways
Griffiths valuation for Clonmore 1856 (you probably already have this)
Bryan Roddin renting from Alex J R Stewart
then in conjunction with the petty sessions of 1855
Alex J R Stewart took the following men to court for coming and violently assaulting....
Paddy Roddin
Hugh Roddin
James Rodden (Carren)
Francis Roddin
Neddy Roddin
they were all fined
were they all brothers? no Bryan listed though
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James and Catherine also had a daughter called Margaret who married James Harkin on 10 Feb 1872 at Clondahorky, address given Clonmore, father James Rodden, farmer.
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Again, I think you have this from earlier threads - Tithe Applotments 1834 Cloonmore - Bryan Roden
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004587419/004587419_00439.pdf
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Hi JC,
James was indeed a naughty boy, there are numerous court records both as witness & participant. I don't believe any of those listed are related to my James...
Now this I did not know -> James and Catherine also had a daughter called Margaret who married James Harkin on 10 Feb 1872 at Clondahorky, address given Clonmore, father James Rodden, farmer - at all..........do you have a link for that at all??
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Griffiths valuation for Clonmore 1856 (you probably already have this)
Bryan Roddin renting from Alex J R Stewart
then in conjunction with the petty sessions of 1855
Alex J R Stewart took the following men to court for coming and violently assaulting....
Paddy Roddin
Hugh Roddin
James Rodden (Carren)
Francis Roddin
Neddy Roddin
they were all fined
were they all brothers? no Bryan listed though
Some weddings.
1877 Dunfanaghty Superintendent Registrar's District Anthony Rodden, son of Edward.
These at Milford S.R. District:
1891 William, son of Edward
1891 Julia, daughter of Francis. Julia's address was Scotland.
1891 Catherine, daughter of Hugh
All 3 marriages were on same page in the register.
1895 Hannah Rodden, daughter of Edward
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Now this I did not know -> James and Catherine also had a daughter called Margaret who married James Harkin on 10 Feb 1872 at Clondahorky, address given Clonmore, father James Rodden, farmer - at all..........do you have a link for that at all??
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en
It's the free government site. You have to register.
Select Civil Records, enter surname Rodden and Dunfanaghty district, tick marriages to find Margaret's marriage and those of Grace (1882), Catherine (1883) and Lizzie (1890).
There was another Grace, whose father was also James, married in Milford District 1877.
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Hi Maiden,
The thing that confuses me, is if you cross check with births for Margaret Rodden, the 2 records I can see, has Margaret being the daughter of Bryan Rodden and Mary Anne McGee, and the 2nd being the daughter of John Rodden and Catherine (formally Doog??? can't read the rest of it) - neither of those are James Rodden & Catherine O'Donnell
Yes the marriage cert for Margaret Rodden & James Harkin, states her father as James Rodden, I can't find birth/baptism for Margaret....
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If the family had always lived in Clonmore/Cloonmore and used the church at Clondahorkey (where Charles' siblings were married) then there are no known church records before 1877.
https://www.johngrenham.com/records/rc_church.php?churchid=1010&parish=Clondahorkey
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1010
https://www.townlands.ie/donegal/kilmacrenan/clondahorky/ards/clonmore/
http://donegalgenealogy.com/Clondahorkyproj.htm
Debra :)
Daler68 see the above... registers before 1877 are missing
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The thing that confuses me, is if you cross check with births for Margaret Rodden, the 2 records I can see, has Margaret being the daughter of Bryan Rodden and Mary Anne McGee, and the 2nd being the daughter of John Rodden and Catherine (formally Doog??? can't read the rest of it) - neither of those are James Rodden & Catherine O'Donnell
Yes the marriage cert for Margaret Rodden & James Harkin, states her father as James Rodden, I can't find birth/baptism for Margaret....
Margaret was "full age" when she married in February 1872. That means she was 21 or older. Therefore she was born 1851 or earlier. Civil registration of births began 1864. So you won't find a birth registration for Mary.
Elizabeth's birth was registered (born Dec. 1866, registered 1867). Hannah's birth (1865) might have been registered. Bridget (1863) would have been born just too early for registration. Not all births were registered during early years of registration. (e.g. birth of my "Annie" was registered but the birth of one of her younger sisters wasn't.)
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Some of the information comes from Charles Rodan's obituary in The Murchison Times, WA 22 Dec 1834 giving an age of 81 born in Donegal. no mention of his parents or other relatives back in Ireland.
this gives him a birth c1853
There are numerous trees on Ancestry with the names James and Catherine being his parents
siblings on the trees
Brian 1842
Michael 1857
Grace 1860
Bridget 1863
Hannah 1865
Elizabeth 1866
There are gaps in the early births, there is no indication that they have the same mother.
2 more possible early siblings to add from information on their marriage registrations:
Margaret married 1872, stated to have been "full age". so she would have been born 1851 or earlier.
Catherine married 1883, stated age 30, giving her an approximate year of birth 1853, if she gave correct age at marriage.
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Just checked the birth record for Hannah Rodden 1865 reg district Milford and her parents are DANIEL RODDEN and CATHERINE O'DONELL
can't find a reg for Elizabeth 1866
I couldn't find a birth registered for Hannah with parents James & Catherine. I tried variants of Hannah, extended search years and districts. She may not have been registered.
The only birth registration I found for a child of James & Catherine (formerly O'Donnell) was Elizabeth.
Daniel & Catherine Rodden (O'Donnell) also had Daniel 1868 and Catherine 1869 (+ likely older children born pre civil registration).
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Hi Maiden,
James Rodden, died 10th June 1883 at 67yrs, so his birth year 1816
Catherine Rodan, died 03rd June, 1904, 87yrs, so her birth year 1817
Charles Rodan, died 13th Dec, 1934, 81yrs, so his birth year 1853
Am only trying to find details of James & Catherine.
My eldest brother has all the details of the rest of the family...
thanks
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Age at death of old people was often only an estimated or approximate age. Therefore year of birth, calculated from age at death, was approximate. E.g. estimated birth year for Charles was 1853. Estimated birth year for Catherine Rodden, a possible sister of Charles calculated from her age at marriage was also 1853.
As jcred26 said in reply #15 "sometimes it helps to go sideways". It's a recommended technique if documentation about the subject of a search is lacking.
The Rodden men listed by jcred in reply #15 were likely related to each other and perhaps to your James.
Added. We don't know what information your brother has. We know only what you've told us and what we've found. Information we post on this thread is partly to help others assisting so that we're not duplicating effort. A collaborative approach often leads to one of us making a connection that others have missed.
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Don't see this commented on in the thread yet-
... James Rodden, born 1816 in Donegal Ireland ..James apparently married a Catherine O'Donnell in Carlow, Ireland 1845 approx - (again no records to confirm that either) ...
Have you looked at a map showing location of Irish counties? A marriage anywhere in County Carlow is extremely unlikely-
http://www.sin.ie/2019/11/14/is-there-a-sense-of-hierarchy-between-certain-counties/
From Donegal (town) to Carlow (town) is 180 miles according to Google Maps directions.
To give an idea of scale in Ireland for that timeframe my grandfather's uncle (born 1850s) wrote in his memoirs that mother's family lived at the 'great distance' of 7 or 8 miles so they didn't see their maternal relatives often. This was in a part of the country with better roads and, being prosperous farmers, they would have made the journey with horse and cart.
It is far, far more likely that the marriage took place in or near Donegal. Keep in mind that marriages usually take place in the bride's parish- which may or may not be the same as the groom's. If you don't find the marriage record it may be that the relevant parish records don't cover that period (either don't start early enough or gap in records) or that that portion of the register is very difficult, or impossible, to read.
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Don't see this commented on in the thread yet-
... James Rodden, born 1816 in Donegal Ireland ..James apparently married a Catherine O'Donnell in Carlow, Ireland 1845 approx - (again no records to confirm that either) ...
Have you looked at a map showing location of Irish counties? A marriage anywhere in County Carlow is extremely unlikely-
http://www.sin.ie/2019/11/14/is-there-a-sense-of-hierarchy-between-certain-counties/
From Donegal (town) to Carlow (town) is 180 miles according to Google Maps directions.
Alternative information that James and Catherine married in Cloonmore 1845 in Daler's reply #12.
Birthplace Mayo for Catherine mentioned in that reply. ( Her birthplace was Donegal on 1901 census.)
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Hi Maiden,
Yeah we don't think the marriage information is correct in anyway now - because as I pointed out to my brother that James & Catherine had Mary Catherine 1832 & Bryan Bernard in 1841 - and being Roman Catholic in Ireland we presumed it very high unlikely they were married in 1845, after the birth of 2 children....but again, pure conjecture.
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There are numerous trees on Ancestry with the names James and Catherine being his parents
siblings on the trees
Brian 1842
Michael 1857
Grace 1860
Bridget 1863
Hannah 1865
Elizabeth 1866
There are gaps in the early births, there is no indication that they have the same mother.
2 more possible early siblings to add from information on their marriage registrations:
Margaret married 1872, stated to have been "full age". so she would have been born 1851 or earlier.
Catherine married 1883, stated age 30, giving her an approximate year of birth 1853, if she gave correct age at marriage.
Hi Maiden,
Yeah we don't think the marriage information is correct in anyway now - because as I pointed out to my brother that James & Catherine had Mary Catherine 1832 & Bryan Bernard in 1841 - and being Roman Catholic in Ireland we presumed it very high unlikely they were married in 1845, after the birth of 2 children....but again, pure conjecture.
Was Mary Catherine a different person from the Catherine who married 1883 at stated age 30?
If all those children were born to the same couple and if birth years are correct, that works out at 34 years of child-bearing. The only documented birth was Elizabeth, born 1866, registered 1867.
Consider that they may have been children from more than 1 marriage. A few widowers married 2 wives with the same first name or with the same surname. Both happened in 2 of my Irish families. I've come across it in others.
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Hi Maiden,
Our Mary Catherine b 1832, died 31st Dec 1928, married a Francis McCarry b 1832, died 15th Feb 1915 - in Dunfanaghy 02nd Feb 1869
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Our Mary Catherine b 1832, died 31st Dec 1928, married a Francis McCarry b 1832, died 15th Feb 1915 - in Dunfanaghy 02nd Feb 1869
The Mary Roddan who married Francis MCCarry on that date was a minor according to the marriage registration. That means she hadn't reached her 21st birthday. The earliest year she could have been born is 1848. See reply #7 by jcred. Francis was "full age" so born 1848 or earlier.
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Hi all,
I am not going to be posting in here anymore. It is doing my head in.
I only wanted birth/baptism and marriage certificates on James & Catherine - that's it - no one else.
But everything you are all bringing up is completely clashing with the information that 2 people within my family, who had paid Donegal/Irish genealogists several hundred's of dollar's to get the marriage & death certificates for all of the children of James & Catherine. Why they didn't get birth, marriage, details of James & Catherine at the time, I do not know.
But all the information you are bringing up is totally different to what official records we already have, and because I don't have those records in front of me, this is doing my head in.
I really do appreciate the information, you have provided.
Thank you once again - good bye.
Dale
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I only wanted birth/baptism and marriage certificates on James & Catherine - that's it - no one else.......Why they didn't get birth, marriage, details of James & Catherine at the time, I do not know.
That was answered back in post #11. If the family had always lived in Clonmore/Cloonmore and used the church at Clondahorkey then the church records no longer exist and no amount of searching will find records that have been lost. I don't know how much clearer I can make that.
Debra :)