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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 28 June 20 13:06 BST (UK)
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Hi guys
I've had this brick wall for ages now, and I just need a little help to make some progression.
John Henry Smith was born abt 1884, location unknown. He married Margaret Morris in Tralee, County Kerry whom he met when his was stationed at the army barracks there. His wedding cert states James Smith as his father.
He died in Manchester 19th February 1937 and the death cert states he was Staff Quarter Master Sargent in the The Royal Army Pay Corps.
We think he was a prisoner of war in Singapore but don't have any further details on this.
If anyone can find anything which relates to when he first signed up, mother's name, home town, etc I would be truly grateful.
Thank you!
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We think he was a prisoner of war in Singapore
Not possible if he died in 1937.
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Ok, he must have served there then, this is why I need help! :)
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I don't suppose you know his army number? Do you have access to any of his medals?
Linking to the marriage record for the benefit of other researchers: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1905/10168/5699639.pdf
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I'm trialing back through my cousins emails now, he definitely served in Singapore, after he married as I have a photo of them over there in civvie clothing. Here is a picture of when he first signed up, rumour has it he lied about his age to get in. I don't have his reg. number sorry!
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This is John & Margaret in Singapore
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If he was still serving in the army after 1920 (I assume he was), then his records will still be with the Ministry of Defence. You can apply for a copy (£30) but the trouble is that you will need either his army number or his date of birth (which would need to match the date of birth on the army record).
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His death cert doesn't state he was ex army, retired or a army pensioner so would that suggest he was still soldiering when he died? We have no clue what his DOB or place of birth is, this is the problem I can't get round.
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Possibly another Singapore photo here: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/mediaui-viewer/tree/114805715/person/332076604828/media/4bde1698-f4fb-4711-a806-05c05399a500
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Yes, I put that on Ancestry :-)
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Was he living in Exeter circa 1917?
There's a newspaper article (20 March 1917, Exeter and Plymouth Gazette) concerning Staff Sergeant John Henry Smith of the Army Pay Corps, St Luke's College. It mentions a brother in the Canadian Force, who had recently returned to Canada to await discharge.
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OH!!!!!! Brilliant! I know he liven in Exeter but I don't know when! I'll ask my cousin! So excited!!!!
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No longer military when he died.
Name: John Henry Smith
Age: 53
Record Type: Burial
Birth Date: abt 1884
Death Date: abt 1937
Burial Date: 23 Feb 1937
Burial Place: Manchester, Greater Manchester, England
Occupation: Retired Soldier
Cemetery: Manchester Southern Cemetery Section T Grave No 2339
The photograph as a young soldier has `flaming grenade ` collar insignia ,used by both Royal Engineers and Royal Artillery.
Jim
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OH!!!!!! Brilliant! I know he liven in Exeter but I don't know when! I'll ask my cousin! So excited!!!!
I wouldn't get too excited: it was an allegation of misuse of Thrift Club funds, case thrown out for lack of sufficient evidence.
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OH!!!!!! Brilliant! I know he liven in Exeter but I don't know when! I'll ask my cousin! So excited!!!!
I wouldn't get too excited: it was an allegation of misuse of Thrift Club funds, case thrown out for lack of sufficient evidence.
Lol!
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No longer military when he died.
Name: John Henry Smith
Age: 53
Record Type: Burial
Birth Date: abt 1884
Death Date: abt 1937
Burial Date: 23 Feb 1937
Burial Place: Manchester, Greater Manchester, England
Occupation: Retired Soldier
Cemetery: Manchester Southern Cemetery Section T Grave No 2339
The photograph as a young soldier has `flaming grenade ` collar insignia ,used by both Royal Engineers and Royal Artillery.
Jim
Thank you Jim, very helpful! Did these regiments recruit nationwide or in from specific towns?
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Have you thought of trying to trace the brother in the Canadian Force? He obviously lived in EXeter for a while then left England before the court hearing - late 1916 or early 1917. His records might state parents' names.
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They were recruiting countrywide I`m afraid ,so no clues there I`m afraid.
Jim
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Might John H have started in another regiment & transferred to Pay Corps if injured?
Marriage entry found by ShaunJ states father James is a clerk - this might help confirm any census return found. Marriage was in a CoE church.
Might the names of children with Margaret help?
ADDED: John's marriage 29 April 1905 witnesses Walter Pinnell/Punnell/Purnell also APC & J Morris ?father; the IMMEDIATELY next marriage in register is Walter's on 20 May 1905 witnessed by John Henry Smith. Both by licence - do the licences still exist?
Walter Edgar Pinnell's army record is on ancestry, shows he started in Wiltshire Regiment in 1896 & transferred to APC in 1903, so John too may have been transferred into APC. Walter enlisted at 14 yr 5 mo!
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So, I think I may have found our young soldier , were trumpeters usually the youngest recruits, too young for real action? Also can you confirm this is the Royal Artillery?
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Well done! Walter Pinnell became a drummer after enlisting at 14 so perhaps youngsters did get those roles?
Yes, I would say Royal Garrison Artillery but could be wrong. Is that a census? If so can you give us the reference please.
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Well done! Walter Pinnell became a drummer after enlisting at 14 so perhaps youngsters did get those roles?
Yes, I would say Royal Garrison Artillery but could be wrong. Is that a census? If so can you give us the reference please.
I wonder if the two young lads became life long pals? Yes it's this census, I have previously overlooked ir because it was the wrong regiment https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7814/images/DEVRG13_2108_2108-0487?ssrc=pt&treeid=114805715&personid=332076604828&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=11702418&backurl=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fsse.dll%3Findiv%3D1%26dbid%3D7814%26h%3D11702418%26ssrc%3Dpt%26tid%3D114805715%26pid%3D332076604828%26usePUB%3Dtrue
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Just ordered the birth cert for John Henry Smith - Mother's name Neal
Year Qtr District Vol Page Reg Ent No DOR
1883 Dec EAST STONEHOUSE 05B 295
Keep your fingers crossed for me!
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Look forward to the results.
For anyone without ancestry access census is RG13; Piece: 2108; Folio: 241; Page: 17
With a name like John Smith, you are lucky he seemed to use his middle name throughout.
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Per the birth records of daughters Florence (1907) and Isabel (1910), the family were then living at 28 Bowness Street in Belfast.
Note the alternate spelling of the surname as Smyth in the Belfast Directories 1907-1912:
(now can we find the family in the 1911 census....)
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Thanks Shaun, that's great! I had ordered Kathleen's birth cert too as she was born in 1910 and I was hoping they were still at the same address for the 1911 census !
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Florence Cecilia (1907) birth record: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1907/01712/1678109.pdf
James Henry (1908) birth record:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01647/1657792.pdf
Isabella Kathleen (1910) birth record:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01574/1634402.pdf
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Margaret Emma (1905) birth record:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01756/1692330.pdf
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Well, well, well: Stonehouse it is !
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001444246/
The other side: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001444247/
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Spot on!!
Could this be 1891? RG12; Piece: 864; Folio: 107; Page: 5
James Smith 32 b Chatham private R Inniskilling Fusiliers
Margaret Smith 26 b do
John Smith 7 b Plymouth
James Smith 3 b Mauritius
Florence Smith 1 b Portsmouth
Marriages Dec 1883
NEAL Margaret Emma E. Stonehouse 5b 541
PARSONS John E. Stonehouse 5b 541
SMITH James Henry E Stonehouse 5b 541
WILLIAMS Emma Jane E. Stonehouse 5b 541
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1883 Smith/Neal marriage record. He was a drummer in the South Lancs. regiment
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FPLY%2F004634634%2F00082&parentid=GBPRS%2FM%2F35136072%2F1
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James and Margaret Emma Smith and family in Devonport in 1911:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW9N-P6D
I think this is the brother who went to Canada and joined the CEF: William Thomas Smith born Ireland 1892
Attestation: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1086/gat3-107760a
Personnel file: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61084/b9126-s011-0001
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Great finds! Brother William born Co Cork & James jnr in Inniskilling Fusiliers....may be an Irish connection?And regiments based in Ireland were in Chatham where James jnr ca 1858/9 [father James snr was a butler as you found, ShaunJ]. Margaret ca 1865 were born. Margaret's father private in Royal Marines.
Can't yet find William's birth in civil records.
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Wow guys, I have to go to work now but huge thank you!!!!! Have you noticed the forenames and surnames have be swapped on the 1911 census, no wonder I couldn't bl**dy find them! ;D
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Another quicky - Mauritius?! This is clearly a military family of several generations and I assume this is why one of the children was born in Mauritius. What action would have taken them there?!
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Another quicky - Mauritius?! This is clearly a military family of several generations and I assume this is why one of the children was born in Mauritius. What action would have taken them there?!
Garrison duty
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I've been through all eight of the Ministry of Defence's released spreadsheets listing servicemen born before 1901 whose files are still held by the MoD.
There is only one J H Smith with a birth date in 1883:
7657235 SMITH JH 1883-10-08
This is definitely an Army Pay Corps number.
Hopefully this will match the date on the birth certificate you have ordered and give you confidence to apply to the MoD for a copy of the file.
Interesting to note that this birthdate is a month before the marriage of James Henry Smith and Margaret Emma Neal.
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Have you noticed the forenames and surnames have be swapped on the 1911 census
I've reported the errors
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So did I ! ;D
Do you want the next mystery in this story or are you sick of me now? :P
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Ok, I'm going to be cheeky and push my luck :-)
This is the 1871 census record for JH Smith's mother Margaret Emma Neal.
So my questions are, has Isabella Tapscott remarried hence the surname change and children with 2 different surnames? I would say very likely but, where does Michael Hanlon fit in?! He is down as the Husband and head of household but he lives next door?
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/DEVRG10_2124_2127-0268?ssrc=pt&treeid=114805715&personid=332206136186&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=11171471&backurl=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fsse.dll%3Findiv%3D1%26dbid%3D7619%26h%3D11171471%26ssrc%3Dpt%26tid%3D114805715%26pid%3D332206136186%26usePUB%3Dtrue
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are you sick of me now? :P
Haven't you noticed, rootschatters love mysteries ;D ;D
First off - Michael Hanlon is 'Head' & widowed so a separate household in the same house.
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are you sick of me now? :P
Haven't you noticed, rootschatters love mysteries ;D ;D
Stick around, I have plenty! :-))))
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Second -
Marriages Jun 1866
Neal Isabella E. Stonehouse 5b 556
Sanders Ellen East Stonehouse 5b 556
TAPSCOTT George E. Stonehouse 5b 556
Western John E.Stonehouse 5b 556
ADDED:
TAPSCOTT, GEORGE FRANCIS WYLIE
GRO Reference: 1867 M Quarter in EAST STONEHOUSE Volume 05B Page 329
Marriages Sep 1856
Gullett Rachel E. Stonehouse 5b 502
Neal William E Stonehouse 5b 502
WHITE Francis E Stonehouse 5b 502
Wylie Isabella E Stonehouse 5b 502
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Second -
Marriages Jun 1866
Neal Isabella E. Stonehouse 5b 556
Sanders Ellen East Stonehouse 5b 556
TAPSCOTT George E. Stonehouse 5b 556
Western John E.Stonehouse 5b 556
Superb! Now also know that Isobella's maiden name is Wylie and found her roots in Orkney islands !
Still don't know who ? Neal / Neil is?
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Have you found Neals on 1861? William must have died 1860 - 1866.
NOT this death
NEAL, WILLIAM HENRY MAUNDER 2
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in PLYMOUTH Volume 05B Page 181
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Have you found Neals on 1861? William must have died 1860 - 1866.
NOT this death
NEAL, WILLIAM HENRY MAUNDER 2
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in PLYMOUTH Volume 05B Page 181
Found a record for Oct 1866?
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But Isabella remarried April/May/Jun 1866.
1861 RG 9; Piece: 1411; Folio: 8; Page: 7 [note mistranscription of surname on ancestry, has been commented on 2009 by ancestry member north219 ] Tormoham, Torquay
Isabella Eal 31 M dressmaker b Scotland
Isabella M Eal 3 b Plymouth
William A Eal 1 b Portsmouth
No William senior present, so his age, occupation & birthplace a mystery. Maybe look for childrens' baptisms for his occupation, or get marriage record?
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But Isabella remarried April/May/Jun 1866.
1861 RG 9; Piece: 1411; Folio: 8; Page: 7 [note mistranscription of surname on ancestry, has been commented on 2009 by ancestry member north219 ]
Isabella Eal 31 M dressmaker b Scotland
Isabella M Eal 3 b Plymouth
William A Eal 1 b Portsmouth
No William senior present, so his age, occupation & birthplace a mystery. Maybe look for childrens' baptisms for his occupation, or get marriage record?
William was a sailor, I found the 1841 census for him. I wonder if he died at sea? I'll revisit the death record, thank you! Now got the Wylies all the way back to 1790's William Wylie, Isobella's father was the coastguard in the Orkney Islands!
My cousin is OVERWHELMED by all this, he has always had an infinity with the sea, so now has a better understanding of roots.
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According to the marriage entry in parish register, William was a private in Royal Marines living at Marine Barracks, full age [not helpful!] father John a labourer. William made mark, Isabella signed, witnesses Louisa Neal [mark] & the church clerk.
ADDED: Louisa Neal may be William's sister or mother.
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According to the marriage entry in parish register, William was a private in Royal Marines living at Marine Barracks, full age [not helpful!] father John a labourer. William made mark, Isabella signed, witnesses Louisa Neal [mark] & the church clerk.
Can you link to that please?
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It's on findmypast Devon marriages so you will need to be a subscriber to see.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FPLY%2F004634644%2F00106&parentid=GBPRS%2FM%2F35138360%2F1.
I found this in the Newspaper Archive, obviously no idea whether it is your William Neal
William Neal, another seaman, was charged with being drunk and incapable of taking care of himself on the previous night.
10 March 1862 - Western Daily Mercury. - Plymouth, Devon, England
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It's on findmypast Devon marriages so you will need to be a subscriber to see.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FPLY%2F004634644%2F00106&parentid=GBPRS%2FM%2F35138360%2F1.
I found this in the Newspaper Archive, obviously no idea whether it is your William Neal
William Neal, another seaman, was charged with being drunk and incapable of taking care of himself on the previous night.
10 March 1862 - Western Daily Mercury. - Plymouth, Devon, England
I've just subscribed for a month thank you again!