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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 28 June 20 13:06 BST (UK)

Title: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 28 June 20 13:06 BST (UK)
Hi guys

I've had this brick wall for ages now, and I just need a little help to make some progression.

John Henry Smith was born abt 1884, location unknown. He married Margaret Morris in Tralee, County Kerry whom he met when his was stationed at the army barracks there. His wedding cert states James Smith as his father.

 He died in Manchester 19th February 1937 and the death cert states he was Staff Quarter Master Sargent in the The Royal Army Pay Corps.

We think he was a prisoner of war in Singapore but don't have any further details on this. 

If anyone can find anything which relates to when he first signed up, mother's name, home town, etc I would be truly grateful.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 28 June 20 13:07 BST (UK)
Quote
We think he was a prisoner of war in Singapore

Not possible if he died in 1937.
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 28 June 20 13:20 BST (UK)
Ok, he must have served there then, this is why I need help!  :)
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 28 June 20 13:31 BST (UK)
I don't suppose you know his army number? Do you have access to any of his medals?

Linking to the marriage record for the benefit of other researchers: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1905/10168/5699639.pdf
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 28 June 20 13:38 BST (UK)
I'm trialing back through my cousins emails now, he definitely served in Singapore, after he married as I have a photo of them over there in civvie clothing. Here is a picture of when he first signed up, rumour has it he lied about his age to get in. I don't have his reg. number sorry!
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 28 June 20 13:41 BST (UK)
This is John & Margaret in Singapore
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 28 June 20 13:49 BST (UK)
If he was still serving in the army after 1920 (I assume he was), then his records will still be with the Ministry of Defence. You can apply for a copy (£30) but the trouble is that you will need either his army number or his date of birth (which would need to match the date of birth on the army record).

Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 28 June 20 13:53 BST (UK)
His death cert doesn't state he was ex army, retired or a army pensioner so would that suggest he was still soldiering when he died?  We have no clue what his DOB or place of birth is, this is the problem I can't get round.
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 28 June 20 13:57 BST (UK)
Possibly another Singapore photo here: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/mediaui-viewer/tree/114805715/person/332076604828/media/4bde1698-f4fb-4711-a806-05c05399a500
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 28 June 20 13:58 BST (UK)
Yes, I put that on Ancestry :-)
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 28 June 20 14:05 BST (UK)
Was he living in Exeter circa 1917?

There's a newspaper article (20 March 1917, Exeter and Plymouth Gazette) concerning Staff Sergeant John Henry Smith of the Army Pay Corps, St Luke's College. It mentions a brother in the Canadian Force, who had recently returned to Canada to await discharge.
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 28 June 20 14:07 BST (UK)
OH!!!!!!  Brilliant! I know he liven in Exeter but I don't know when! I'll ask my cousin!  So excited!!!!
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: verrieres on Sunday 28 June 20 14:12 BST (UK)
No longer military when he died.

Name:   John Henry Smith
Age:   53
Record Type:   Burial
Birth Date:   abt 1884
Death Date:   abt 1937
Burial Date:   23 Feb 1937
Burial Place:   Manchester, Greater Manchester, England
Occupation:   Retired Soldier
Cemetery:   Manchester Southern Cemetery Section T Grave No 2339

The photograph as a young soldier has `flaming grenade ` collar insignia ,used by both Royal Engineers and Royal Artillery.

Jim
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 28 June 20 14:22 BST (UK)
Quote
OH!!!!!!  Brilliant! I know he liven in Exeter but I don't know when! I'll ask my cousin!  So excited!!!!

I wouldn't get too excited: it was an allegation of misuse of Thrift Club funds, case thrown out for lack of sufficient evidence.
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 28 June 20 14:46 BST (UK)
Quote
OH!!!!!!  Brilliant! I know he liven in Exeter but I don't know when! I'll ask my cousin!  So excited!!!!

I wouldn't get too excited: it was an allegation of misuse of Thrift Club funds, case thrown out for lack of sufficient evidence.

Lol!
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 28 June 20 14:48 BST (UK)
No longer military when he died.

Name:   John Henry Smith
Age:   53
Record Type:   Burial
Birth Date:   abt 1884
Death Date:   abt 1937
Burial Date:   23 Feb 1937
Burial Place:   Manchester, Greater Manchester, England
Occupation:   Retired Soldier
Cemetery:   Manchester Southern Cemetery Section T Grave No 2339

The photograph as a young soldier has `flaming grenade ` collar insignia ,used by both Royal Engineers and Royal Artillery.

Jim

Thank you Jim, very helpful!  Did these regiments recruit nationwide or in from specific towns?
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: josey on Sunday 28 June 20 14:59 BST (UK)
Have you thought of trying to trace the brother in the Canadian Force? He obviously lived in EXeter for a while then left England before the court hearing - late 1916 or early 1917. His records might state parents' names.
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: verrieres on Sunday 28 June 20 15:08 BST (UK)
They were recruiting countrywide I`m afraid ,so no clues there I`m afraid.

Jim
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: josey on Sunday 28 June 20 15:33 BST (UK)
Might John H have started in another regiment & transferred to Pay Corps if injured?

Marriage entry found by ShaunJ states father James is a clerk - this might help confirm any census return found. Marriage was in a CoE church.

Might the names of children with Margaret help?

ADDED: John's marriage 29 April 1905 witnesses Walter Pinnell/Punnell/Purnell also APC & J Morris ?father; the IMMEDIATELY next marriage in register is Walter's on 20 May 1905 witnessed by John Henry Smith. Both by licence - do the licences still exist?

Walter Edgar Pinnell's army record is on ancestry, shows he started in Wiltshire Regiment in 1896 & transferred to APC in 1903, so John too may have been transferred into APC. Walter enlisted at 14 yr 5 mo!
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Monday 29 June 20 21:53 BST (UK)
So, I think I may have found our young soldier , were trumpeters usually the youngest recruits, too young for real action?  Also can you confirm this is the Royal Artillery?
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: josey on Monday 29 June 20 22:09 BST (UK)
Well done! Walter Pinnell became a drummer after enlisting at 14 so perhaps youngsters did get those roles?

Yes, I would say Royal Garrison Artillery but could be wrong. Is that a census? If so can you give us the reference please.
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Monday 29 June 20 22:14 BST (UK)
Well done! Walter Pinnell became a drummer after enlisting at 14 so perhaps youngsters did get those roles?

Yes, I would say Royal Garrison Artillery but could be wrong. Is that a census? If so can you give us the reference please.

I wonder if the two young lads became life long pals?  Yes it's this census, I have previously overlooked ir because it was the wrong regiment https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7814/images/DEVRG13_2108_2108-0487?ssrc=pt&treeid=114805715&personid=332076604828&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=11702418&backurl=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fsse.dll%3Findiv%3D1%26dbid%3D7814%26h%3D11702418%26ssrc%3Dpt%26tid%3D114805715%26pid%3D332076604828%26usePUB%3Dtrue
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Monday 29 June 20 22:22 BST (UK)
Just ordered the birth cert for John Henry Smith - Mother's name Neal
Year   Qtr   District   Vol   Page   Reg   Ent No   DOR
1883     Dec     EAST STONEHOUSE     05B     295 

Keep your fingers crossed for me!             
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: josey on Tuesday 30 June 20 08:05 BST (UK)
Look forward to the results.

For anyone without ancestry access census is RG13; Piece: 2108; Folio: 241; Page: 17

With a name like John Smith, you are lucky he seemed to use his middle name throughout.
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 30 June 20 08:22 BST (UK)
Per the birth records of daughters Florence (1907) and Isabel (1910), the family were then living at 28 Bowness Street in Belfast.

Note the alternate spelling of the surname as Smyth in the Belfast Directories 1907-1912:

(now can we find the family in the 1911 census....)
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Tuesday 30 June 20 08:25 BST (UK)
Thanks Shaun, that's great! I had ordered Kathleen's birth cert too as she was born in 1910 and I was hoping they were still at the same address for the 1911 census !
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 30 June 20 08:37 BST (UK)
Florence Cecilia (1907) birth record: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1907/01712/1678109.pdf
James Henry (1908) birth record:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01647/1657792.pdf
Isabella Kathleen (1910) birth record:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01574/1634402.pdf
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 30 June 20 08:41 BST (UK)
Margaret Emma (1905) birth record:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01756/1692330.pdf
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 30 June 20 09:42 BST (UK)
Well, well, well: Stonehouse it is !

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001444246/

The other side: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001444247/
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: josey on Tuesday 30 June 20 10:03 BST (UK)
Spot on!!

Could this be 1891? RG12; Piece: 864; Folio: 107; Page: 5
James Smith   32 b Chatham private R Inniskilling Fusiliers
Margaret Smith   26 b do
John Smith   7 b Plymouth
James Smith   3 b Mauritius
Florence Smith   1 b Portsmouth

Marriages Dec 1883 
NEAL    Margaret Emma        E. Stonehouse    5b   541    
PARSONS    John        E. Stonehouse    5b   541    
SMITH    James Henry        E Stonehouse    5b   541    
WILLIAMS    Emma Jane        E. Stonehouse    5b   541   

Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 30 June 20 10:17 BST (UK)
1883 Smith/Neal marriage record. He was a drummer in the South Lancs. regiment

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FPLY%2F004634634%2F00082&parentid=GBPRS%2FM%2F35136072%2F1
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 30 June 20 10:37 BST (UK)
James and Margaret Emma Smith and family in  Devonport in 1911:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW9N-P6D

I think this is the brother who went to Canada and joined the CEF: William Thomas Smith born Ireland 1892

Attestation: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1086/gat3-107760a
Personnel file: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61084/b9126-s011-0001
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: josey on Tuesday 30 June 20 10:49 BST (UK)
Great finds! Brother William born Co Cork & James jnr in Inniskilling Fusiliers....may be an Irish connection?And regiments based in Ireland were in Chatham where James jnr ca 1858/9 [father James snr was a butler as you found, ShaunJ]. Margaret ca 1865 were born. Margaret's father private in Royal Marines. 

Can't yet find William's birth in civil records.
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Tuesday 30 June 20 11:14 BST (UK)
Wow guys, I have to go to work now but huge thank you!!!!!   Have you noticed the forenames and surnames have be swapped on the 1911 census, no wonder I couldn't bl**dy find them! ;D
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Tuesday 30 June 20 11:43 BST (UK)
Another quicky - Mauritius?!   This is clearly a military family of several generations and I assume this is why one of the children was born in Mauritius. What action would have taken them there?!
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 30 June 20 11:52 BST (UK)
Quote
Another quicky - Mauritius?!   This is clearly a military family of several generations and I assume this is why one of the children was born in Mauritius. What action would have taken them there?!

Garrison duty
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 30 June 20 15:22 BST (UK)
I've been through all eight of the Ministry of Defence's released spreadsheets listing servicemen born before 1901 whose files are still held by the MoD.

There is only one J H Smith with a birth date in 1883:

7657235 SMITH JH 1883-10-08

This is definitely an Army Pay Corps number.

Hopefully this will match the date on the birth certificate you have ordered and give you confidence to apply to the MoD for a copy of the file.

Interesting to note that this birthdate is a month before the marriage of James Henry Smith and Margaret Emma Neal.
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 01 July 20 11:18 BST (UK)
Quote
Have you noticed the forenames and surnames have be swapped on the 1911 census

I've reported the errors
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Wednesday 01 July 20 11:44 BST (UK)
So did I !  ;D

Do you want the next mystery in this story or are you sick of me now?  :P
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Wednesday 01 July 20 12:01 BST (UK)
Ok, I'm going to be cheeky and push my luck :-)

This is the 1871 census record for JH Smith's mother Margaret Emma Neal.

So my questions are, has Isabella Tapscott remarried hence the surname change and children with 2 different surnames? I would say very likely but, where does Michael Hanlon fit in?! He is down as the Husband and head of household but he lives next door?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/DEVRG10_2124_2127-0268?ssrc=pt&treeid=114805715&personid=332206136186&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=11171471&backurl=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fsse.dll%3Findiv%3D1%26dbid%3D7619%26h%3D11171471%26ssrc%3Dpt%26tid%3D114805715%26pid%3D332206136186%26usePUB%3Dtrue
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: josey on Wednesday 01 July 20 12:12 BST (UK)
are you sick of me now?  :P
Haven't you noticed, rootschatters love mysteries  ;D ;D

First off - Michael Hanlon is 'Head' & widowed so a separate household in the same house.
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Wednesday 01 July 20 12:13 BST (UK)
are you sick of me now?  :P
Haven't you noticed, rootschatters love mysteries  ;D ;D

Stick around, I have plenty! :-))))
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: josey on Wednesday 01 July 20 12:19 BST (UK)
Second -
Marriages Jun 1866 
Neal    Isabella        E. Stonehouse    5b   556   
Sanders    Ellen        East Stonehouse    5b   556    
TAPSCOTT    George        E. Stonehouse    5b   556    
Western    John        E.Stonehouse    5b   556

ADDED:
TAPSCOTT, GEORGE  FRANCIS     WYLIE 
GRO Reference: 1867  M Quarter in EAST STONEHOUSE  Volume 05B  Page 329

Marriages Sep 1856
Gullett    Rachel        E. Stonehouse    5b   502    
Neal    William        E Stonehouse    5b   502    
WHITE    Francis        E Stonehouse    5b   502    
Wylie    Isabella        E Stonehouse    5b   502
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Wednesday 01 July 20 12:23 BST (UK)
Second -
Marriages Jun 1866 
Neal    Isabella        E. Stonehouse    5b   556   
Sanders    Ellen        East Stonehouse    5b   556    
TAPSCOTT    George        E. Stonehouse    5b   556    
Western    John        E.Stonehouse    5b   556

Superb!  Now also know that Isobella's maiden name is Wylie and found her roots in Orkney islands !

Still don't know who ? Neal / Neil is?
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: josey on Wednesday 01 July 20 12:28 BST (UK)
Have you found Neals on 1861? William must have died 1860 - 1866.

NOT this death
NEAL, WILLIAM  HENRY MAUNDER    2
GRO Reference: 1861  J Quarter in PLYMOUTH  Volume 05B  Page 181
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Wednesday 01 July 20 12:47 BST (UK)
Have you found Neals on 1861? William must have died 1860 - 1866.

NOT this death
NEAL, WILLIAM  HENRY MAUNDER    2
GRO Reference: 1861  J Quarter in PLYMOUTH  Volume 05B  Page 181

Found a record for Oct 1866?
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: josey on Wednesday 01 July 20 13:17 BST (UK)
But Isabella remarried April/May/Jun 1866.

1861 RG 9; Piece: 1411; Folio: 8; Page: 7 [note mistranscription of surname on ancestry, has been commented on 2009 by ancestry member north219 ] Tormoham, Torquay
Isabella Eal   31 M dressmaker b Scotland
Isabella M Eal   3 b Plymouth
William A Eal   1 b Portsmouth

No William senior present, so his age, occupation & birthplace a mystery. Maybe look for childrens' baptisms for his occupation, or get marriage record?
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Wednesday 01 July 20 13:25 BST (UK)
But Isabella remarried April/May/Jun 1866.

1861 RG 9; Piece: 1411; Folio: 8; Page: 7 [note mistranscription of surname on ancestry, has been commented on 2009 by ancestry member north219 ]
Isabella Eal   31 M dressmaker b Scotland
Isabella M Eal   3 b Plymouth
William A Eal   1 b Portsmouth

No William senior present, so his age, occupation & birthplace a mystery. Maybe look for childrens' baptisms for his occupation, or get marriage record?

William was a sailor, I found the 1841 census for him. I wonder if he died at sea?  I'll revisit the death record, thank you!  Now got the Wylies all the way back to 1790's William Wylie, Isobella's father was the coastguard in the Orkney Islands!

My cousin is OVERWHELMED by all this, he has always had an infinity with the sea, so now has a better understanding of roots.
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: josey on Wednesday 01 July 20 13:29 BST (UK)
According to the marriage entry in parish register, William was a private in Royal Marines living at Marine Barracks, full age [not helpful!] father John a labourer. William made mark, Isabella signed, witnesses Louisa Neal [mark] & the church clerk.

ADDED: Louisa Neal may be William's sister or mother.
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Wednesday 01 July 20 14:14 BST (UK)
According to the marriage entry in parish register, William was a private in Royal Marines living at Marine Barracks, full age [not helpful!] father John a labourer. William made mark, Isabella signed, witnesses Louisa Neal [mark] & the church clerk.

Can you link to that please?
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: josey on Wednesday 01 July 20 14:47 BST (UK)
It's on findmypast Devon marriages so you will need to be a subscriber to see.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FPLY%2F004634644%2F00106&parentid=GBPRS%2FM%2F35138360%2F1.

I found this in the Newspaper Archive, obviously no idea whether it is your William Neal
William Neal, another seaman, was charged with being drunk and incapable of taking care of himself on the previous night.
10 March 1862 - Western Daily Mercury. - Plymouth, Devon, England
Title: Re: Help with early army records
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Wednesday 01 July 20 15:13 BST (UK)
It's on findmypast Devon marriages so you will need to be a subscriber to see.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FPLY%2F004634644%2F00106&parentid=GBPRS%2FM%2F35138360%2F1.

I found this in the Newspaper Archive, obviously no idea whether it is your William Neal
William Neal, another seaman, was charged with being drunk and incapable of taking care of himself on the previous night.
10 March 1862 - Western Daily Mercury. - Plymouth, Devon, England


I've just subscribed for a month thank you again!