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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Mobo on Monday 29 June 20 12:40 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help please as I'm coming up against 'brick walls' at every turn.
I'm trying to find Peter John GRAY (b.c.1891) who died in 1924 in Salford - on his daughter Mabel's marriage certificate of 1940, is occupation was a Stoker...but whether it was on a ship or in a factory it doesn't say. Thanks ::) ::) ::) ::)
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When was Mabel born?
Who was her mother?
What does the marriage certificate of Peter and her mother tell you?
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Where was Mabel born? 1911 has a 2yr old adopted child Mabel Gray
Is she the Mabel McKenna who died 1998? If so - birthdate 25.3.1916 but no birth as Gray
Another Mabel Gray/McKenna b 18.2.1917
When and where did Mabel die?
Only 3 Mabel Gray births in Lancs between 1912-1921 - 1914/16/17
Births March qtr 1917
Gray Mabel mmn Vaughan Manchester 8d 318
No Peter Gray marriage to a Vaughan
Deaths March qtr 1924
Gray Peter J 33 Salford 8d 90
No Peter John Gray birth 1889-1892
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SP has a 1904 marriage between a John Gray and a Jeanie Vaughan or De Vaughan but no birth for a Peter John Gray
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Also 2 Mabel Gray births in Scotland - 1913 & 1920
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I'd previously found Mable GRAY's birth on 18 Feb 1817, but for some reason, haven't been able to find her death again, which took place in Salford in the 1970's, when she was Mabel McKENNA ?? I'd also found a possible birth for her in the GRO with a mother named VAUGHAN. I'd found Peter J GRAY's death in Salford in 1924 (age 33), but now, it's looking like he was just named John GRAY ?? So, if the marriage to Jeannie VAUGHAN in Scotland is his, then no wonder I couldn't find him ? Thanks everyone !!! ............and now I have to find James Henry McKENNA b. 4 Jul 1912, (who married Mabel). His father was Bernard Joseph McKENNA (and because I suspect they may have come from Ireland, this will be another difficult search)...... hey ho - back to the drawing board. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Something to bear in mind: a Peter J Grey married a Frances I. Vaughan in 1916 Runcorn, Cheshire. No births for Grey mmn Vaughan in the relevant time frame and only a Mabel for Gray mmn Vaughan (there are 3 other Gray/Vaughan births in West Derby but they seem to be children of a Francis E Gray married to a Mary K Vaughan 1918 West Derby).
I think you really need to purchase the birth certificate of the Mabel Gray - birth Mar.qtr.1917 Manchester - to confirm if this is your Mabel or not. If the right birthdate, and father, you'll know for sure the name of her mother (and hopefully trace the right marriage) and can find out what happened to her after Peter's death.
Since Peter John Gray was born c.1891 he cannot be the John Gray married to a Jeannie Vaughan in 1904 as far too young (13)!!
You need to progress slowly and first step has to be confirming if the Mabel Gray birth 1917 Manchester is indeed yours or not.
Annette
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Something to bear in mind: a Peter J Grey married a Frances I. Vaughan in 1916 Runcorn, Cheshire.
The man Mabel is living with in 1939 may be her stepfather.
Marriages Jun qtr 1925
DAVIES, Frank
GRAY, Frances
Salford 8d 717
Debra :)
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I now have Mabel GRAY's Birth Cert. of 18 Feb 1917 in St Mary's Hospital, Chorlton Upon Medlock - Father Peter John GRAY, Mother Frances VAUGHAN, both of 19 Bedford St, Chorlton Upon Medlock. And the only likely marriage of a Peter J GREY is to a Frances I VAUGHAN in Runcorn, Cheshire in Jan 1916. I'm also sure that Frances VAUGHAN went on to marry Frank DAVIES in 1925 in Salford, after Peter J GRAY had died there in 1924. So, the only likely mother for Mabel seems to be a Frances Isabella VAUGHAN b. 1893, Birkenhead, who died in 1927 in Salford. However, the only male GRAY born in Salford in 1891 was a John GRAY (mother's maiden name Fidler). So I'm a bit stumped now trying to ascertain if he was, in fact, Peter John GRAY b. 1891 - can anyone help please ??
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Not sure if this is of any help:
FreeBMD
Deaths Mar 1924
Gray Peter J 33 Salford 8d 90
margaret
Sorry Mobo - you already have this.
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Thanks Margaret, I've got that (see below) ;D ;D ;D
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Buying a copy of the 1916 marriage cert should give you Peter’s fathers name. The marriage was at All Saints Runcorn so could be looked up at the records office if you live in the area
www.cheshirebmd.org.uk
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you can find the details of the marriage on familysearch
Name:
Peter John Grey
Marriage : 28 Feb 1916
Event Place:
, Runcorn, Cheshire, England
Age (Formatted): 28y
Father's Name:
Peter Grey
Spouse's Name:
Frances Isabella Vaughan
Spouse's Father's Name:
William Vaughan
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Many thanks CaroleW and lancsann - you've given me yet more to get my teeth into..... Anne
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you may already have this
Name:
Mabel Grey
Event Type:
Christening
Event Date:
4 Apr 1917
Event Place:
Chorlton-on-Medlock, Manchester, Lancashire, England, United Kingdom
Event Place (Original):
Chorlton-Upon-Medlock, Lancashire, England
Father's Name:
Peter John Grey
Mother's Name:
Frances Isabella Grey
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No I don't have this Christening lancsann - many thanks for that, and I see it's written as GREY again - but what does 'Original' mean in Event Place ??
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not sure what 'original' means but it is possible to look at the image via FamilySearch
The image says it is at St Luke's Chorlton on Medlock
living at 21 Bedford Street Peter John is a labourer and Mabel was born 18th Feb 1917
The image also looks more like Gray than Grey
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Thank again lancsann - now I have the task of trying to find Peter and Frances on the Census Returns with their respective families, which I'm having trouble with. I don't understand why these two are so difficult to track down. ??? ??? ???
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how about this one for 1901
living Birkenhead
William Vaughan 41
Sarah F Vaughan 38
William A Vaughan 10
Frances G Vaughan 8 mistranscribed should be Frances I
Mary J Vaughan 3
born Birkenhead and William is a Railway breaksman
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Ha ha - thank lancsann - I'd just found it. And it's no wonder I couldn't easily find them because William was born in Hope, Flintshire and Sarah F was born in Gresford, Denbighshire. They must have obviously moved to Birkenhead for work.
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railway people did have a tendency to move around. Maybe stoker on marriage means engine stoker
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Birth on freebmd in June qtr 1893 for Frances Isabella Vaughan - Birkenhead 8a 523
Mmn was Metcalfe
June 1885 marriage for parents William Vaughan & Sarah Frances Metcalfe Wrexham 11b 427
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Peter is a bit of a mystery. He was 33 when he died in March qtr 1924 (1890/91) but 28 when he married in Feb 1916 (1887/88)
There is a Welsh 1891/1901 entry for a Peter Gray b 1886/87 Carnarvon parents Peter & Ann. Peter snr was a furniture dealer b Liverpool. Family are still in Wales in 1911
However - there are matching English 1891/1901 entries with a father Peter. Without knowing both Peters occ on the marriage cert - difficult to pinpoint
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Thanks CaroleW - I've had a similar problem pinpointing the right Peter and can't even find him on the Census Returns. Because I'm doing this research for a Friend, I'm trying to keep the cost down by not ordering too many certificates, but it looks like that's how it's got to be. On Mabel's marriage certificate, her father, Peter John GRAY is shown as a Stoker (deceased), so whether that was on a train, ship, or factory is anybody's guess :) :) :)
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FindMyPast has a merchant seaman record for a fireman (= stoker) named Peter John Gray, born 1 September 1890. He's British, but born in Calabar West Africa, and he is black. Does that rule him out? There is a photograph:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/browse?id=tna%2fmsea%2fbt350%2f09%2f84%2f098422
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WOW ! that's brilliant Shaun - thank you so much - he's the guy alright, but I didn't have a clue where to begin and hoped he'd appear on the Census Returns. Thank you again... Sadly, I'm not a Member of Find My Past, so couldn't access the photo - oh ! the frustration..... LOL...Anne
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Thank you Margaret & Shaun for all the great help you've given me...
Regards,
Anne
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Peter is a bit of a mystery. He was 33 when he died in March qtr 1924 (1890/91) but 28 when he married in Feb 1916 (1887/88)
There is a Welsh 1891/1901 entry for a Peter Gray b 1886/87 Carnarvon parents Peter & Ann. Peter snr was a furniture dealer b Liverpool. Family are still in Wales in 1911
However - there are matching English 1891/1901 entries with a father Peter. Without knowing both Peters occ on the marriage cert - difficult to pinpoint
Without the actual marriage certificate I would gues the age is mistranscribed. An 8 is often transcribed for a 3 or 5
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Thanks lancsann, but Shaun very cleverly found him for me on Find My Past (see below) :D :D :D
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Hi I think I maybe able to help you. I believe I am the Great Grand daughter of the Mabel Mckenna (nee Gray) you are referring too. My Grandmas father was black but I think you know this by now.
I would love to connect any missing links if I can help. My Grandmas Father and mother both passed away when she was very young and she was adopted by another family and grew up in Salford Manchester.