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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: fisherj on Friday 03 July 20 19:54 BST (UK)
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For several years I have puzzled over the following problem which boils down to whether, in Cwmgors, there could possibly have been 2 blacksmiths called Thomas DAVIES, with wives called Rachel and daughters called Margaret. And so would be interested in any comments from Rootschatters before finally deciding there must have been - and moving on!
I have "my" Thomas and Rachel DAVIES in the censuses at Nant y Gaseg, Cwmgors from 1851 to 1871 (and their descendents after that). I believe I have them in 1841 too, in Rhyndwyclydach. They were members of Baran chapel and are buried there. I have information on his background including that he was a grandmaster of the Oddfellows.
I don't know Rachel's name before marriage but it can't be PENDRY. Thomas DAVIES and Rachel PENDRY'S daughter Margaret was born on 2 Nov 1850 and Thomas wrote his mark. This Margaret's age does not fit with the census details anyway. But he was a blacksmith and lived in Cwmgors.
"My" Thomas and Rachel DAVIES's daughter Margaret married Jonah WILLIAMS in 1862 and Thomas together with his son John were witnesses. She couldn't have got married at 12 years!
Cwmgors could not have been very big at that time. So the names and occupations have to be a coincidence. Don't they? Just one problem - I just can't find the other Thomas DAVIES on the censuses!
Many thanks
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think I'm inclined to wonder about the birth registration. There's this marriage in Llandybie, Rachel's place of birth according to the census entries
16 Jan 1841 parish church of Llandybie
Thomas Davies full bach blacksmith Cwmbach father George Davies farmer
Rachel Pendry full spinster servant maid Cwmbach father Philip Hendry farmer
witnesses John Davies & Robert Davies, all sign apart from Rachel.
Baptism same parish 24 Aug 1813 Rachel daughter of Philip, labourer, & Rachel Penry.
Philip Penry married Rachel Powel 7 May 1813 witnesses Thomas Mathias & Thomas Penry.
Possible in Martletwy for Thomas 5 May 1817 son of George, labourer, & Margaret of Weston Village.
1841 census Weston, Martletwy HO107/1448/15 folio 19 pg 8
George Davies 60 coal miner
Margaret 55
Margaret 15
all born in county
1851 the 2 Margarets are still in Weston, Margaret senior 71 born Amroth. Neighbour is James Davies, blacksmith, who could be a brother.
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back to Llandybie
baptism 23Jan 1825 for Philip, son of Philip, farmer, & Rachel Penry of Cwmbach
burial 25 Aug 1826 Rachel Penry 38 of Blaen Cwmbach
marriage 16 Feb 1827 of Philip Penry widower & Hannah Davies widow, witnesses John Loyd & Jacob Pendry
1841 Cwmbach, Llandybie HO107/1384/12 folio 26 pg 1
Philip Penry 50 farmer
Hannah 50
Mary Davies 20
all born in county
burial 31 Jan 1851 Philip Penry 62 of Cwmbach
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01poe/
baptism for Philip 30 March 1790 son of Rees & Edekiah Penry
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Thank you Osprey.
That is Thomas DAVIES birth in Martletwy to George and Margaret.
I have the marriage cert for the PENDRY/DAVIES marriage and assumed it incorrectly stated Thomas had signed because on the birth certificate for their daughter Margaret it states his mark.
And... well... the 2 witnesses have the same names as 2 of "my" Thomas's brothers....coincidence may be....??!
Anyway....
"My" Margaret was born about 1847 in Llangwig according to the 1851 census.
Her marriage cert to Jonah has both Thomas and her elder brother John (b Llangyfelach) as witnesses who signed.
I was unable to find a birth cert for John.
So I can't work out why they would register her birth and not his - 3 years or so after the event?
I have certificates too re Pendry. And it is Philip and Hannah who are Rachel's parents i am confident of that.
Any further thoughts?
Many thanks for looking at this.
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Rachel's mother is Rachel, Hannah was the second wife.
I have no explanation of why Margaret would be registered so late.
Perhaps Thomas didn't want to put his signature against something incorrect or the registrar said 'put your mark there' or something like.
I think the census and parish records hold together better than the evidence of the birth cert. As you say, no sign of a Margaret that matches the cert.
You may already have this map which shows the smithy
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01pof/
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Yes - sorry Rachel is Rachel's mother.
Since you have given some credibility back to the Penry line, i am wondering about the 2 witnesses John and Robert Davies... if they were Thomas's brothers whether they had relocated to Llangyfelach or Llandybie area with him. (I think i've already explained he had brothers with those names!)
The Davies/Pendry marriage cert has George as the groom's father so that fits too.... it's Margaret's cert that later threw me.
And...and this will be difficult...but it would be interesting to know who the Mr Davies was that Hannah had previously married.
And indeed I am going to put a general post on Rootschat to see whether anyone else knows of a birth being registered late.
I'll have to find out if philip penry left a will too.
Just one more thing i found interesting...on the marriage cert, Rachel is Pendry and her father Hendry. The registrar attached a note to say that was not an error but as per the original.
I have found a Philip John ap Henry of Llandybie but had not followed up on that for fear if wasting time barking up the wrong
Family tree.
Many thanks again.
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I've looked for a will for Philip and there isn't one in the NLW index.
The original church record is on FindmyPast, there's a scan of the parish register.
I'll see if I can find a possible for Hannah.
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this looks possible, all in Llandybie
marriage 17 Feb 1807 Rees Davies & Hannah Morgan
burials
21 July 1818 Hannah Davies 5 of Cwmmwg
9 August 1818 Rees David 33 of Cwmmwg
baptisms
22 Nov 1809 Hannah David daughter of Rees & Hannah
16 March 1812 Rees Davies, son of Rees & Hannah
26 March 1814 Hannah Davies daughter of Rees, collier, & Hannah of Cwmmwg
14 July 1816 Mary Davies daughter of Rees, collier, and Hannah of Cwmmwg
marriage 15 Sept 1843
David Morgan full bach smith Parkyrhyn father John Morgan smith
Mary Davies full spinster Cwmbach father Rees Davies farmer
witnesses Evan Walters & John Harris
will of Hannah Penry with son-in-law David Morgan
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01poh/
baptism 2 Dec 1844 Hannah Morgan daughter of David, smith, and Mary of Cwmbach
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Osprey - that is so very helpful - really kind of you.
I've been drawing this new info into a family tree so as to digest it better and I am surrounded by my previous notes!
David MORGAN who married Mary DAVIES (daughter of Hannah MORGAN/DAVIES/PENRY was present at the death of Philip PENRY, his step father-in-law at the Golden Lion Penybank LLandebie in 1851.
I'm not sure how if at all Hannah MORGAN is related to him.
(I already have a MORGAN, Gwenllian, in my direct line - from Y Betws Carms. I have not been able to establish her parents or family but that is another story!!)
I was hoping that in some way I could connect Rees DAVIES with my DAVIESes. But no such luck. Of course Thomas DAVIES may have moved to the area on his own. Some of his other brothers were blacksmiths too.
I'll do some more work on John and Robert DAVIES too.
Very many thanks - I'm waiting to see a response to my post on the general forum about delayed birth registrations.
I did have a thought though.... perhaps he injured his hand (temporarily) and that's why he could not sign to register Margaret's birth. Doesn't explain the lateness though.
Many thanks again.
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Hannah Morgan would be his step grand daughter.
Another thought that crossed my mind is that in early years, some registrars invented birth registrations. From memory, pay was related to number of registrations. Now this child existed, just registered at the wrong time.
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Well.... that's a thought.
From my other post on the general forum i have just been reading an article i was sent which explained the onus was on registrars to register births. It was not compulsory in the early days and they were paid for each registration.
So that could very well be it - and he would never have thought he would be caught out!
Going back to possible PENDRY and DAVIES connections, in 1841 Thomas and Rachel DAVIES are at Rhyndwyclydach with servant Margaret MORGAN aged 7 Not born in county.
I have wondered whether she was the child of Thomas MORGAN and Anne PENDRY who married on 18 February 1826. Groom abode Ystradgynlais.
But i cannot find a baptism for Anne PENDRY/PENRY/HENRY/HENDRY that fits.
Nor can i find a marriage or death for Margaret MORGAN. I was hoping for a marriage where Thomas DAVIES was a witness!
Many thanks again!!
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baptism for sister of Philip in Llandybie
2 July 1801 Anne Penry daughter of Rees & Edekiah
What is the first name of the second witness to the marriage? Don't think I've come across a Zorobabel before! Excellent!
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Zerubbabel
Baptism in Llandybie 3 March 1833 for Margaret Morgan, daughter of Thomas, labourer, and Anne, address village.
I can see banns for Margaret Morgan & David Richards both otp Nov/Dec 1854, marriage registered dec qtr 1854 Llandilofawr. OK, marriage is under Morgans.
22 Dec 1854
David Richards 24 bach collier Dogsbrook Ucha father Edward Richards collier
Margaret Morgans 24 spinster Gellydwarch father Thomas collier
witnesses David Evans & William Robert.
Age doesn't seem to be a match.
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Oh i missed Anne PENRY 1801 - thanks for that.
I have a burial of Anne Morgan 13 Nov 1840 aged 55 (b.1785 though) which would/could explain why a child of 7 was a servant.
She would be Rachel DAVIES/PENRY's niece wouldn't she?
As for the Margaret MORGANS marriage....at least her father's name is correct.
Sorry - i missed the bit about witnesses....whose marriage fo you mean?
Zorrobabel?? In any case i was going to ask you whether Edekiah was correct or a misreading in transcription!
Thanks for all your help.
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no, Edekiah is what it says on the register. If you use Findmypast, you can check the scan of the register. Zorrobabel witnessed Anne's marriage to Thomas.
I don't rely on transcriptions. One possible marriage I found just now for a Margaret Morgan gave her age as 25 on the transcription, but the image showed 18 so too young for yours.
I think this might be Thomas & Anne
1841 Maeslech, Bettws HO107/1384/1 folio 8 pg 8
Thomas Morgan 45 farmer
Ann 40
Thomas 15
Rachel 14
Ann 7
David 2
Morgan 1
all born in county
1851 Maes llech HO107/2471 folio 679 pg 19
Thomas Morgan head mar 50 farmer of 64? acres
Anne wife 50
Rachel daughter 24
David son 14 employing on the farm
Morgan son 11
Jacop son 9
Mary dau 7
Thomas, Anne & Rachel born Llandybie, other children born Bettws
birth regs
David Morgan sept qtr 1838 Llandilofawr vol 26 pg 469 mmn Pendry
Morgan Morgan june qtr 1840 Llandilofawr vol 26 pg 537 mmn Pendry
Jacob Morgan dec qtr 1841 Llandilofawr vol 26 pg 508 mmn Pendry
not finding parish baptisms apart from Margaret, possibly non-conformist. Perhaps Margaret wasn't expected to survive so a quick baptism in parish church.
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marriage 8 Jan 1790 in Llandybie for Rees Penry & Edekiah Maybery, both otp, witnesses Wm William & John Davies. All except Rees sign.
Burial 10 Dec 1829 for Rees Pendry 80 of Gelly gweirdy(?)
& this could be Edekiah
11 Feb 1832 Edith Penry 74 Gelly Gweirdy
There's a baptism in Llandeilofawr 1 Sept 1788 for Edeccia, daughter of Richard & Catherine Mayberry of Brynybeirdd. Richard possibly a brother of Edekiah. He is noted as forgeman on his marriage to Catherine Davies in 1774. He was baptised 27 May 1749 son of Philip & Elisabeth Mayberry of Brinybair
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Thanks again Osprey.
Would you please pass on the full names of the witnesses at the marriage of Rees PENRY and Edekiah MAYBERY. You have whetted my appetite already with referring to Zorro!
And lastly....just a comment re the MORGANs. I am now working on the assumption that Thomas did marry Rachel PENRY and that Margaret MORGAN was her niece (female servant) in their household in Rhyndwyclydach 1841.
It could very well be that her age was 9 and not 7 years given other inaccuracies in the censuses then. 9 years would fit in better with the ages of Thomas and Anne MORGAN's children. Otherwise a 7 year gap where some may have died, I know....but...
Interesting (to me!) that Thomas MORGAN and Anne PENRY/MORGAN moved to Maesllech, Betws. Very many thanks for all these details.
I already have a direct ancestor Gwenllian MORGAN of Betws whose baptism I cannot find. She was born abt 1781. (Buried in 1866 aged 85.) (More non-Conformists.)
She married William MORRIS 1760 - 1841 and they lived at Penllech, Y Betws, Carms which looking at the enumerator's route was the next but one homestead to Maesllech.
This may all be a coincidence since she was born in Y Betws and Thomas MORGAN was born in Llandybie - nor not - dependent on which census is more accurate - but I can't help wondering whether they were related. So much of my family interbred!
There's mention of the MORRIS family and Penllech and the memberships of chapels in the area on line in information on Genuki, most of which has been completed by Gareth Hicks - and has added to my knowledge of the family.
I am going to put a post on the Carmarthenshire forum to see whether anyone else has researched the MORGANS of Betws!
Kind regards
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witnesses to Rees Penry's marriage aren't so exotic - William Williams & John Davies.
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Thanks again - and please would you let me know the full names of both the witnesses at Anne PENRY and Thomas MORGAN's marriage.
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they were Rees Morgan & our friend Zorobabel Davies, both signed. Thomas & Anne both marked.
1851 Zorobabel is 44, a school master, and lodging in Llandilofawr.
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Perhaps his parents went through the alphabet A - Z.
A big thanks again for this.
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I am still trying to work through the question of whether there could have been 2 Thomas DAVIESes, blacksmiths, with wives called Rachel and daughters called Margaret living in Cwmgors, a village in Llangwig parish in 1850. (See my original post.)
My ancestors Thomas (blacksmith) and his wife, Rachel DAVIES , lived at Nant y gaseg farm. They are buried at Baran Chapel. I know all this for sure.
I have now found that there is a Thomas and Rachel DAVIES (+ Elizabeth DAVIES ) buried at Hen Garmel in 1878 and 1881, having lived at Cwmnant Hir. I cannot find any monumental inscription on line.
I am wondering whether someone would be so kind as to try and find them on the 1851 or later census to see whether he was a blacksmith too.
Many thanks