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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: kwilly on Saturday 04 July 20 06:42 BST (UK)
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Hi guys, have a little bit of a stumbling block. I have a death certificate of John Robertson ( married Isabella Noble 1851 Daviot & Dunlichity) John born 1831 to William Robertson & Margaret McKay. Death certificate only states Inverness shire for birth place.
Other children : Joseph 1838, Margaret 1844, and William 1846 - all born Leith? John and Isabella came out to Australia approx 1851-1852. Cannot find marriage of his parents and also to know whether the rest of the family stayed in Scotland?
Cheers from down under
Kaz
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Hi Kaz :)
This John Robertson ?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYDG-DFC
ev
Added , marriage Inverness-shire -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT5C-PLM
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Thanks Ev, was hoping to ascertain his parents - William Robertson and Margaret McKay? And hopefully their details and other children. I have the details you provided and thank you for your response. Much appreciated. Kaz
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1841 Balblair , Moy & Dalrossie , Inverness-shire.
William Robertson 45 Farmer
William Robertson 14
John Robertson 12
Margaret Robertson 8
Angus Robertson 6
Mary Robertson 4
Matches ?
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?q.surname=robertson&q.birthLikePlace=inverness&q.birthLikePlace.exact=on&q.birthLikeDate.from=1820&q.birthLikeDate.to=1841&q.fatherGivenName=william&q.fatherGivenName.exact=on&q.motherGivenName=margaret&q.motherSurname=mckay&count=20&offset=0&m.defaultFacets=on&m.queryRequireDefault=on&m.facetNestCollectionInCategory=on
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYDX-KWL
ev
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Thanks Ev, I had been given info that William Robertson was born around 1810 and Margaret McKay about 1815. Children born : John Robertson ( death cert) born 1831 married Isabella Noble 1851. And that William Robertson in 1851 census was at 18 St Andrews Street Dundee. South Leith. Maybe I am being led up the garden path. But John's death cert shows parents names as above.
attached file
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You have a death certificate and a baptism with the same parents in the right county - why do you think you need to 'ascertain his parents' beyond that?
Where did you get the birth years for William and Margaret? William Robertson's age in the 1841 census is given as 45. Adults' ages in 1841 were rounded down to the nearest 5 years, so if 45 is accurate he was born between 1791 and 1796, not in 1810. Margaret McKay seems to be missing from the household in 1841, so she may have died. But if William jr was born in 1826/1827, his mother cannot have been born in 1815.
If you were told that anyone was at 'Dundee, South Leith' then you were indeed being led up the garden path because Dundee and Leith are about 50 miles apart. Also, it's the wrong William Robertson. The one in the 1841 census was born in Inverness-shire, and the one at 18 St Andrews Street, Leith was born in Leith, which is in Midlothian.
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From the death cert. his father William was a farmer.
18 St Andrews Street Dundee. South Leith.
Dundee(Angus) and South Leith(Midlothian) are in different counties ?(Forfarian has answered this).
Margaret McKay seems to be missing from the household in 1841,
There is a wife Margaret at Balblair in 1851.
ev
Added-
The Margaret on the 1851 Census looks a bit young(42 ?)
Wondering if William had remarried ?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT5F-JP5
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There is a wife Margaret at Balblair in 1851.
Balblair, parish of Moy and Dalarossie (as opposed to any other Balblair - there are several, of which the best known is in Ross and Cromarty)
William Robertson, 55; Margaret, 42; Mary, 15; Duncan, 8; George, 6; Catherine, 4; James, 2; Donald, under 1 year. Duncan is probably the one baptised in Moy and Dalarossie on 13 April 1843, father William, no mother named, but the baptisms of the rest are missing. (They probably went with the Free Kirk at the Disruption in May 1843). They are still there in 1861 and 1871.
However Margaret Robertson, other surname Fraser, died in Moy and Dalarossie in 1901, aged 93, and William Robertson, 81, died in Moy and Dalarossie in 1875. So it does look as if this is not your Margaret McKay. The banns of William Robertson and Margaret Fraser were called in Inverness and in Boleskine and Abertarff on 29 November 1830. However just in case this is a different couple with the same names, William Robertson's death certificate should tell you the names of all his wives.
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Thank you for the information. I don't have William's death certificate - I sent through his son John's death certificate in first post - naming his parents and place of birth as Inverness shire. Being William Robertson and Margaret McKay. He was born 1831, married in 1851 to Isabella Nobel (Noble) Daviot & Dinlichity and settled in Victoria Australia. First child born 1852 Joseph in Australia. He died 1895 and was aged 64 in Victoria Australia.
Cheers
Kaz
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Thank you for the information. I don't have William's death certificate - I sent through his son John's death certificate in first post - naming his parents and place of birth as Inverness shire. Being William Robertson and Margaret McKay. He was born 1831, married in 1851 to Isabella Nobel (Noble) Daviot & Dinlichity and settled in Victoria Australia. First child born 1852 Joseph in Australia. He died 1895 and was aged 64 in Victoria Australia.
Yes, you have already told us all that.
If you want to eliminate the William Robertson in Balblair from your research, you need to go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, buy some credits and use some of them to download and view that death certificate. If it says he was married twice, first to Margaret McKay and then to Margaret Fraser, then you know he is yours. If not, you can dismiss him.
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Just to note , if you make further progress :)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/181447359/william-robertson
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/181445651/margaret-fraser
ev
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Thank you all so much for the info. I will check further and take your advice.
Much appreciated
Cheers
Kaz
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I just had a look at that 1841 census at Balblair, Moy and Dalarossie, on FreeCEN https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
As well as the Robertson family listed in the transcription ev found, there is a Margaret Fraser, 25, female servant, born Inverness-shire. That looks like too much of a coincidence.
Curiously, I can't find the 1842 marriage on Scotland's People - I wonder where that came from?
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Hi guys, took your advice and found a death cert for William Robertson - it showed one marriage only to Margaret Fraser. Found birth cert for child John Robertson - parents William and Margaret (McKay) 3 years difference to what was on his death certificate. I found other siblings but am unsure of the difference in birthplaces? I also couldn't ascertain on Margaret's birth her fathers occupation? Please see attached. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Still can't find a marriage for them - William Robertson and Margaret Mckay on Scotlands People website?
Cheers
Kaz
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Found birth cert for child John Robertson - parents William and Margaret (McKay) 3 years difference to what was on his death certificate.
Not a birth certificate but a baptism record. Birth certificates did not exist in Scotland before the start of statutory civil registration in 1855.
A small discrepancy in age between a birth and death is not significant. It just means that the informant didn't know the correct age of the deceased.
I found other siblings but am unsure of the difference in birthplaces?
Not sure what the problem is with this?
John, born 1828, Moy and Dalarossie
Donald, 1829, Alvie
Margaret, 1830, Kingussie and Insh
Angus, 1833, Kingussie and Insh
Mary, 1835, Alvie
These places are all parishes in the eastern part of Inverness-shire. Like many other families, the Robertsons moved around to places where there was work for William.
I also couldn't ascertain on Margaret's birth her fathers occupation? Please see attached.
Did you mean to attach the page with John's birth on it?
Still can't find a marriage for them - William Robertson and Margaret Mckay on Scotlands People website?
If you can't find it there you are not going to find it anywhere else.
There is a possibility that there was a family bible; a small chance that the bible survived; a still smaller chance that it is the hands of someone interested in the content; and an infinitesimally small chance that that person has put the information online somewhere. But in practical terms, if it's not on SP the marriage record, if it ever existed, has not survived.
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Thank you for clarifying the baptism and the birth places.
Much appreciated
Cheers
Kaz.
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Hi Forfarian and kwilly, (Forfarian I met you when researching the "Sutherlands"). I have also been researching this exact Robertson family. There was a son brother to your John, William born as previously stated 1826/1827 to William and Margaret McKay (tried to upload MC but failed) who married Margaret McGregor in 1855 at Moys Dalrossie and emigrated to Australia. I have been researching with a descendant of William's. Happy to share what I know Regards Margaret
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Looked at the death of William Robertson 1875.It only has 1 spouse on it-Margaret Fraser.
Death:
William Robertson
married. spouse:Margaret Fraser
died: 22 Nov 1875. age 81
father: William Robertson
mother: - - - - - - - -
informant: James Robertson son
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Then looked up children to William Robertson/Margaret Fraser....
Archibald Thos 25 Oct 1831 Boleskine
Alexander 29 June 1835 Boleskine
Hugh 12 July 1837 Boleskine
John 12 July 1837 Boleskine
Hugh 14 Jan 1839 Boleskine
Catharine 19 Aug 1840 Boleskine
Hugh 7 Dec 1841 Kilmonivag
Donald 10 April 1843 Kilmonivag
William 10 April 1843 Kilmonivag
Daniel 20 April 1843 Boleskine
William 20 April 1843 Boleskine
John 22 March 1846 Kilmonivag
David 20 Aug 1848 Kilmonivag
** I know the births in 1843 look like a mistake but that is the way they are on SP.
If this turns out to be your correct William this is a possible birth for him.
William Robertson
22 Aug 1795
William Robertson/Janet McIntosh
Alvie, Inverness
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Lastly, found these children for William Robertson & Margaret MacKay.....
John 7 April 1828 Moy/Dalarossie
Donald 14 July 1829 Alvie
Margaret 19 Dec 1830 Kingussie/Insh
Angus 4 Sept 1833 Kingussie/Insh
Mary 17 April 1835 Alvie
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Donald 10 April 1843 Kilmonivag
William 10 April 1843 Kilmonivag
** I know the births in 1843 look like a mistake but that is the way they are on SP.
Twins?
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Forfarian, on the SP website it didn't stipulate they were twins. What has me puzzled is Daniel & William born 10 April 1843 and Donald & William were born 20 April 1843, 10 days later. Could it be a transcription error or a mistaken double registration???? 🤔
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Remember that what is recorded is likely to be the baptism date, not necessarily the birth date.
Looks like a double record - have you looked at both pairs of originals? Occasionally you get a child baptised in a parish other than the parents' residence, for example if their own minister was away or ill, and the baptism recorded in the home parish later.
And the names Daniel and Donald are used interchangeably.
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Thanks for that. It does make sense, although other children are baptised in the different parish. I like the double recording, perfect sense. Puzzle of the wife continues...... have found Margaret MacKay marrying other Robertson and Williams marrying other Margaret's but not together. Pre 1855 records as you've said are a different kettle of fish. Kim
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have found Margaret MacKay marrying other Robertson and Williams marrying other Margarets but not together.
If you have found these marriages anywhere other than Scotland's People, don't trust them. Especially not if the information comes from trees submitted to commercial web sites (Ancestry, MyHeritage etc).
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Thanks Forfarian, They were found on SP. I know all about the "fun" of commercial website trees. Even transcriptions on some of the sites would bring tears to your eyes. We all want to be related to someone important but I wish that some people doing trees would just stick to their "true" family. Its less research for others.
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Did your Robertson settle in Dunkeld, Wando Valley in Victoria?
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Actually, on re-reading this whole thread it seems abundantly clear that Margaret Fraser who was married to William Robertson in Boleskine has nothing to do with the family you are looking for, so it is really completely irrelevant how many times her twins were recorded in the baptism indexes.
I wish to apologise for encouraging you to fish for a complete red herring.
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Going back to basics.
What we have so far:
I have a death certificate of John Robertson ( married Isabella Noble 1851 Daviot & Dunlichity) John born 1831 to William Robertson & Margaret McKay. Death certificate only states Inverness shire for birth place.
William Robertson and Margaret McKay had five recorded children
John, baptised 7 April 1828, Parish of Moy and Dalarossie, Inverness-shire
Donald, baptised 14 July 1829, Parish of Alvie, Inverness-shire
Margaret, baptised 19 December 1830, Parish of Kingussie and Insh, Inverness-shire
Angus, baptised 4 September 1833, Parish of Kingussie and Insh, Inverness-shire
Mary, baptised 17 April 1835, Parish of Alvie, Inverness-shire
In the 1841 census, at Balblair, parish of Moy and Dalarossie, are
William Robertson 45 Farmer
William Robertson 14
John Robertson 12
Margaret Robertson 8
Angus Robertson 6
Mary Robertson 4
Margaret Fraser 25 Female servant
Puzzlingly, William Sr and the four eldest children are recorded as not born in Inverness-shire. However, the names and order of birth of the children look right, even if their ages are not quite right; Margaret would have been 10, Angus 7 and Mary 5 on the day of the 1841 census.
Margaret Fraser must just be a coincidence after all. The Margaret Fraser who was married to another William Robertson is listed with her husband and five children in the parish of Boleskine. She was far too busy with her own family to have taken a job as a servant in a different parish.
So we are left with William, who (because adults' ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years in 1841) was born between 8 June 1791 and 7 June 1796.
In 1851, in Balblair, Moy and Dalarossie, are
William Robertson, 55, born Alvie
Margaret Robertson, wife, 42, born Inverness
Mary Robertson, daughter, 15, born Alvie
Duncan Robertson, son, 8, born Moy
George Robertson, son, 6, born Moy
Catherine Robertson, daughter, 4, born Moy
James Robertson, son, 2, born Moy
Donald Robertson, son, under 1 year, born Moy
Noting the gap between Mary and Duncan, I speculate that since 1841 Margaret McKay's widower has married his housekeeper Margaret Fraser, and started a new family. His son James, who registered his father's address, may not have known that his big sister Mary (even if he remembered her at all) was only his half-sister. If so, then this is indeed your William Robertson after all, and two different Margaret Frasers married two different William Robertsons in Inverness-shire, one in 1830 (the Boleskine ones) and the other presumably in Moy and Dalarossie.
Other children : Joseph 1838, Margaret 1844, and William 1846 - all born Leith?
These three are the children of a different William Robertson and his wife Margaret Surrene.
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Forfarian, when I was looking up the births of children to William Robertson & Margaret MacKay and William with Margaret Fraser I came across one that puzzled me so I didn't include it but your going back to behinning struck a cord. I haven't my notes to hand at moment for exact date but there was a Duncan born to a William Robertson & nó wife listed but where wife's name would have gone it had FRMR which I took to mean former wife. So that plays into the scenario of Margaret Fraser being Williams second wife. Maybe Margaret MacKay died in childbirth with Duncan. In those days not unheard of. Kim
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I see what you mean.
The age is certainly right for Duncan, who was aged 8 in the 1851 census. But if that was Margaret McKay, why the long gap between Mary and Duncan, and where was she in the 1841 census?
I'd have thought that it was an abbreviation for 'farmer' rather than 'former wife'?
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Another snippet.
William Robertson's death in 1875 was registered by his son James.
In the 1881 census James Robertson, 32, born Moy, is in Moy with wife Lillias and son William. And sure enough James Robertson, son of William Robertson, farmer, deceased, and Margaret Fraser, married Lillias McBean on 26 December 1877 in Moy.
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Maybe the first Margaret was ill??? The birth:
Duncan Robertson
Moy & Dalarossie
13 April 1843
father:William Robertson
mother: FRMR 40
This is all there was. Kim
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That's all that is in the index at SP. The original document would perhaps make it clearer, but unfortunately the link on SP is wrong. I've reported it.
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Finally ran the 'other' William Robertson and Margaret Fraser down in the 1851 census. They are in Kilmonivaig in Lochaber
William Robertson, 45, Shepherd, born Glengarry, Inverness-shire
Margaret, wife, 40
Jane, daughter, 17, born Boleskine
Hugh, 10, born Boleskine
William, 7, born Boleskine
Daniel, 7, born Boleskine
John, 5, born Kilmonivaig
In 1861, they're in the same place
William, 55, shepherd, born Kilmonivaig
William, 18, born Boleskine
Daniel, 18, born Boleskine
John, 16, born Kilmonivaig
David, 8, born Kilmonivaig
William Sr is recorded as married (according to the transcription) but his wife is not at home.
So I think that is enough to prove conclusively that the John born to William Robertson and Margaret Fraser in Kilmonivaig is not the one who married Isabella Noble and emigrated to Australia.
Also that this isn't the couple in Moy and therefore that there were indeed two couples with the same names.
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Forfarian, well done. In small communities with naming patterns in use you can see how that could happen & how confusing it can be. Kim
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This is the first time I have seen a post which mentions Margaret Mackay and Margaret Fraser as both being wives of William Robertson. I believe this is correct. Margaret Mackay was his first wife and Margaret Fraser his second. William Robertson married his house servant Margaret Fraser in 1842. She was listed in the Census of 1841. I have proof in the form of certificates and baptism records that Margaret Mackay was the mother of William, John, Margaret, Angus and Mary Robertson. Their mother is not listed on the 1841 census so I assume she is dead.
Name William Robertson
Gender Male
Marriage Date 15 Dec. 1842
Marriage Place Moy and Dalarossie, Inverness, Scotland
Spouse Margaret Fraser
FHL Film Number 1068236
Close
Then William Robertson and Margaret Fraser went on to have five children- Duncan, George, Catherine, James and Donald. Mary is listed as their daughter on many family trees but this is not correct. Her mother was Margaret Mackay.
Name Mary Robertson
Gender Female
Age 0
Birth Date 13 Apr. 1835
Baptism Date 17 Apr. 1835
Baptism Place Alvie,Inverness,Scotland
Father Wm. Robertson
Mother Margaret Mackay
I am convinced that Margaret Fraser his second wife was his housekeeper in 1841. I hope this helps you. I am so pleased to see that someone else has the same idea as me. It is very difficult to find proof as there are so many William Robertsons and Margaret Frasers. I'm hoping that if I can get some DNA proof eventually. This is my husband's family.
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One more thing in regard to William Robertson and Margaret McKay. Their eldest son William married Margaret McGregor and also immigrated to Australia. Their second John arrived in Victoria in 1852. William and his wife and two sons arrived in 1858. William also lived in Victoria for many years but after the death of his wife, went to New South Wales where he was a pioneer in the western districts of that state. You are welcome to view my family tree- Ewin/Robertson Family Tree- owner Denise Ewin. I have done extensive research and back my research up with documentation. I don't know what happened to William and John's siblings-Margaret, Angus and Mary.
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One more thing in regard to William Robertson and Margaret McKay. Their eldest son William married Margaret McGregor and also immigrated to Australia. Their second John arrived in Victoria in 1852. William and his wife and two sons arrived in 1858. William also lived in Victoria for many years but after the death of his wife, went to New South Wales where he was a pioneer in the western districts of that state. You are welcome to view my family tree- Ewin/Robertson Family Tree- owner Denise Ewin. I have done extensive research and back my research up with documentation. I don't know what happened to William and John's siblings-Margaret, Angus and Mary.
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One more thing in regard to William Robertson and Margaret McKay. Their eldest son William married Margaret McGregor and also immigrated to Australia. Their second John arrived in Victoria in 1852. William and his wife and two sons arrived in 1858. William also lived in Victoria for many years but after the death of his wife, went to New South Wales where he was a pioneer in the western districts of that state. You are welcome to view my family tree- Ewin/Robertson Family Tree on Ancestry- owner Denise Ewin. I have done extensive research and back my research up with documentation. I don't know what happened to William and John's siblings-Margaret, Angus and Mary.
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deniseje,
If you position the curser outside the 'quote' brackets, you will be able to type a reply.
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One more thing in regard to William Robertson and Margaret McKay. Their eldest son William married Margaret McGregor and also immigrated to Australia. Their second John arrived in Victoria in 1852. William and his wife and two sons arrived in 1858. William also lived in Victoria for many years but after the death of his wife, went to New South Wales where he was a pioneer in the western districts of that state. You are welcome to view my family tree on Ancestry- Ewin/Robertson Family Tree- owner Denise Ewin. I have done extensive research and back my research up with documentation. I don't know what happened to William and John's siblings-Margaret, Angus and Mary.
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This is the first time I have seen a post which mentions Margaret Mackay and Margaret Fraser as both being wives of William Robertson. I believe this is correct. Margaret Mackay was his first wife and Margaret Fraser his second. William Robertson married his house servant Margaret Fraser in 1842. She was listed in the Census of 1841. I have proof in the form of certificates and baptism records that Margaret Mackay was the mother of William, John, Margaret, Angus and Mary Robertson. Their mother is not listed on the 1841 census so I assume she is dead.
Name William Robertson
Gender Male
Marriage Date 15 Dec. 1842
Marriage Place Moy and Dalarossie, Inverness, Scotland
Spouse Margaret Fraser
FHL Film Number 1068236
Close
Then William Robertson and Margaret Fraser went on to have five children- Duncan, George, Catherine, James and Donald. Mary is listed as their daughter on many family trees but this is not correct. Her mother was Margaret Mackay.
Name Mary Robertson
Gender Female
Age 0
Birth Date 13 Apr. 1835
Baptism Date 17 Apr. 1835
Baptism Place Alvie,Inverness,Scotland
Father Wm. Robertson
Mother Margaret Mackay
I am convinced that Margaret Fraser his second wife was his housekeeper in 1841. I hope this helps you. I am so pleased to see that someone else has the same idea as me. It is very difficult to find proof as there are so many William Robertsons and Margaret Frasers. I'm hoping that if I can get some DNA there will be proof eventually. This is my husband's family.
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