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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: LMFAO on Thursday 09 July 20 09:03 BST (UK)
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My 2x grandfather born in 1843 was illegitimate . Luckily his mother named his father as William Miller labourer on his birth certificate and on his baptism record.
I narrowed down three possible suspects living in the same area in 1841.
One probably too old - one too young and one the same age as the mother.
So I tentatively added him to my tree and traced his parents. George Miller and Ruth Verrier born c.1771 Somerset ( cannot find baptism record for her) but obviously no proof it was him and also I cannot find any trace of this William after 1841.
I was contacted by someone with a DNA match of 27 cM across 1 segments.
There was no obvious match in our trees so we worked back together and found her 4x great grandfather was a William Verrier born c.1780 Somerset ( cannot find baptism record for him. ) We cannot find the family connection between these two - with this amount of DNA could they have been brother and sister ?
There is absolutely no other connection in our trees .
Is this enough evidence to confirm I have the right William Miller?
With so many DNA matches to wade through It seems too good to be true to be contacted by someone out of the blue and to solve the puzzle of my 3xgrandfather.
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Hi there, can you say how you know Ruth and William Verrier were born in these years in Somerset if bps haven't been found for them - and do you know a specific location in Somerset?
Have you checked non-conformist bps for that time period? Another thought is that Verrier sounds French, possibly Huguenots? It also may be middle English for glass maker.
There is Rose Verrier bp 1775 in Curry to John and Betty but I've only seen a transcript for this. It's always possible this could be Ruth but mistranscribed. I've not found any obvious other children for this couple.
It may be worth contacting the local records office (if/when open) or heritage organisation to ask if there are any gaps in parish record years.
Was William (born 1843) known as Miller or Verrier, or did his mother marry and William take her married name?
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Hi
Thank you for your reply.
This is how I got my theory of who William Miller my 3x grandfather may-have been
My 2 x grandfather was Alfred John Woodbury born 2/11/1843 Stream Lane Taunton
From his birth certificate- Mother Fanny Woodbury father William Miller labourer
Fanny Woodbury was. baptised 3/2 /1813 West Bagborough Somerset.
In 1841 she was in North Curry servant
Piece 941 book 1 Folio 12 page 16
In 1841 there is William Miller (agricultural labourer)living with Ruth Miller and siblings
In North Curry
Piece 941 book 2 folio 10 page 14
William Miller baptised 10/01/1813
North Curry Somerset
Father George Miller
Mother Ruth Miller
George Miller married Ruth Verrier
Marriage or Bann Date
05/12/1797
North Curry Somerset
I found Ruth Miller (Verrier) in 1841 and 1851
In 1851 she is aged 80 living with her unmarried daughter Harriet
Place of birth given as North Curry
Schedule 45 piece 1922 Folio 275 page 11
My DNA match has a 2xgrandmother
Jane Verrier born 1821 Bishops Lydeard she married in 1843 naming her father as William Verrier
I cannot find her in 1841 or a baptism.
I cannot find William Verrier on a census.
This is the only link we have - where my family history in Somerset and surrounding counties her is mainly Durham and Japan
I have not checked non-conformist baptisms for that time period- how would I go about that
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The Genealogist website has NC records which are subscription but the index is free to access. You may have to try different name variants - Varrier, Vurruer, Vyrier, etc.
Also it looks as though George Miller and Ruth Verrier married by licence. If she was born in 1771, she would have been 26 in 1797, so it could have been a second marriage and she may have been a widow. The licence may state this.
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Many thanks for this information and you help.
I will definitely look further into these records.
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Is the YOB for Jane Verrier (1821) consistent across marriage records, censuses and death/burial? It's just that there's Jane Verrier bp 1816 in Norton Fitzwarren (not far from Bishops Lydeard) to mother Ann, no father. It's possible that father William Verrier on Jane's marriage record could be her grandfather. I've seen that a few times where grandparents raised their illegitimate grandchildren and/or the groom/bride didn't want to admit to being illegitimate.
Does the marriage entry state William's occupation and whether he was deceased?
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The DNA amount and the naming is a good indication that you are on the right track
There could be parish records of a bastardy order
Women were more likely to be awarded payments if they named the child after the father .
I have some similar cases .
Looking into one family found the brother of distant DNAmatch was a sailor and had died before birth of child who my ancestor named after him .!
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I cannot find a baptism for Jane ( using 1821) nor can I find her in 1841.
On the marriage record it just states of full age and father William Verrier labourer. It does not say he is deceased.
In 1851 as Jane Cross she is 30 years old.
I cannot find her on a census in 1861
however I have found a burial record for a Jane Cross in 1860 which gives her age as 45 giving a birth year of 1815.
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Is that Jane Cross buried in St Giles in Bradford on Tone? That could be her. Husband John looks to be a widower in the 1861 census and is living in Bradford St Giles.
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Yes- that’s her
If William was in fact her grandfather rather than her father is it then possible he may have been Ruth Verriers brother?
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Her age is recorded as 45 years at GRO as well. So perhaps she is the same Jane Verrier bp to mother Ann in 1816.
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If William was in fact her grandfather rather than her father is it then possible he may have been Ruth Verriers brother?
Yes, or Jane's mother Ann could be Ruth's sister.
I've now found more bps to John and Betty Verrier, from 1775 to 1793, all North Curry except for two in Creech - William 1783 and Ann 1786.
I can't find any further records for daughter Rose bp 1775. It may help if the local research organisation could provide a scan of the original image to see if it could be Ruth.
Ann bp 1786 could be the mother of Jane Verrier bp 1816, although I haven't looked for a marriage, burial or census entry for this Ann.
John Verrier married Betty Dwelly 1774 North Curry. It might be worth you and your match searching your list of matches for Dwelly in Somerset to see if anything comes up for the name.
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Thank you so much for your help and all of the leads you have given me - very much appreciated .
You have given me much more to investigate. :)
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Flemming - you are amazing!!
I have just checked my DNA matches for Dwelly .
I have a match of 12cms across 1 segment.
They have John Verrier marrying Betty Dwelly
Interestingly In total I have 5 DNA matches for Dwelly
the other four are all in Plymouth Massachusetts.
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Flemming - you are amazing!!
I have just checked my DNA matches for Dwelly .
I have a match of 12cms across 1 segment.
They have John Verrier marrying Betty Dwelly
I can't find any further records for daughter Rose bp 1775. It may help if the local research organisation could provide a scan of the original image to see if it could be Ruth.
Interestingly In total I have 5 DNA matches for Dwelly
the other four are all in Plymouth Massachusetts .
My next step is to try and find out if “Rose” is indeed Ruth.
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Interestingly, there's a bp for Betty Dwelly 1753 North Curry to Samuel and Joan (possible maiden name Derham - another one to check in matches' trees), then Ruth Dwelly bp 1758 Northy Curry to the same couple, so this could be who Betty named a child after.
If Ruth and Ann were sisters, it looks to make you and your match 5C1R. DNA Painter's shared cM tool has this relationship in the highest probability level for 27cM (56%). So far, it fits.
As you say, the question is whether Rose = Ruth and, if so, why a few years were added to her age later on.
Somerset Archives and Local Studies' website says they're planning to reopen in early August, or the Somerset & Dorset FHS may help in the meantime - their office is closed but volunteers are working remotely. As well as the bp for Rose Verrier, you could ask them about the marriage licence for Ruth Verrier and George Miller. FindMyPast has a transcript with three witnesses on it, but the original may hold more information than this. Ancestry has an image for this marriage although I don't have a sub at present to check what it is - it may be the marriage itself rather than the licence for it.
Who does your 12cM match descend from?
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The DNA used was from my mother
This is the baptism it is hard to read
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It does look like Rose. The third letter is similar to the 's' in Anstis on the line below. Other transcriptions have it as 'Mos.' but don't think it's that. You could post it on the Handwriting and Deciphering board to get other people's views. They may ask for a bigger section of the page to get a better feel of the handwriting style.
Another option is that Ruth was born to Betty Dwelly before the marriage to John Verrier. Betty would have been 17 or 18 if Ruth's YOB 1770/1 is correct. It still leaves the question of what happened to 'Rose'.
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Btw did you look at ethnicity of yourself and matches.
have you got any french blood to confirm Flemmings heugonaut theory !
I use town searches but sometimes a look at ethnicity can help work out who is a probable match to who and .
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brigidmac
Thank you the reminder to check my ethnicity - there is nothing to suggest France but if they were heugonaut I think more likely Belgium.
I will now investigate further all the information I have and hopefully get a clearer picture of the Verrier family.
With DNA and the valuable help received on this post It shows you can break down those brickwalls .
I have been trying to confirm Williams identity for 13 years - so never give up!!!!