RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Calpe 1704 on Saturday 11 July 20 17:44 BST (UK)
-
With the end of the trail of who i thought was a Violet Mary Hamblin (nee Turner), my grandmother, ended up being a Violet Mabel Ellen Turner.
The search now begins for her ancestors with your help.
Her mother Beatrice Lilian Turner, born in Luton (1872~).
Father unknown.
-
I assume you have looked on the GRO index for her birth
Births Sep qtr 1872
TURNER Beatrice Lilian Mothers maiden surname Reed
Luton 3b 452
-
35 page thread here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=339253.306
Presume you have looked on the 1881 census and now you have her mothers maiden name you can use freebmd to find their marriage
www.freebmd.org.uk
-
35 page thread here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=339253.306
Presume you have looked on the 1881 census and now you have her mothers maiden name you can use freebmd to find their marriage
www.freebmd.org.uk
Just to summarise in Calpe's absence, there is masses about Beatrice's likely parents George Henry and Emma Ellen Turner on the 35 page thread. None of them can be found in 1881 and Beatrice and Emma Ellen are nowhere to be seen in 1891.
-
Apologies for the rushed start to this new thread.
I'll post in next couple of days the information I hold on her.
Thanks
-
Firstly, please allow for any name references, persons etc. i might forget to mention, it is not my intention. Just trying to get my head around so much information coming forward. With thanks in advance.
Richmond Parks told us, his G.R.O. Certificate arrived and it confirmed this of the birth of Beatrice Lilian Turner's daughter and where they were living in 1891.
District: Pancras, London_
Daughter was born, 18 June 1891 at 12 Chesterfield St.
Name - Violet Mabel Ellen
Sadly the Name & Surname of father is Blank.
Mother's name - Beatrice Lillian Turner, who was formally a Barwoman.
When registered: 30 July 1891.
Turn back the time to a very interesting brief video of footage of London streetlife in 1890: -
https://metro.co.uk/2015/04/22/incredible-antique-film-footage-from-1890-reveals-the-changing-face-of-london-life-5161892/ (https://metro.co.uk/2015/04/22/incredible-antique-film-footage-from-1890-reveals-the-changing-face-of-london-life-5161892/)
So there we have it one Beatrice Lilian Turner. Born Sept 1872, in Luton.
johnP-bedford, tells us that in Beatrice's birth index it shows her mother's maiden name was Reed.
Also that there was a marriage in Biggleswade Rd in 1869 of a George Henry Turner to a Emma Ellen Reed.
In the 1871 Census they are together at Langley Rd, Luton. George is 24, born Langford, a baker and Emma is 18 born Biggleswade, no children.
-
What additional information apart from later census for George & Emma is it that you are after
-
George Henry Turner age 22 and Emma Ellen Reed married in Biggleswade in Sept 1869.
On 1871 Census they are together at Langley Rd, Luton. George is 24, born Langford (1847), a baker and Emma is 18 born Biggleswade (1853), no children.
Back to 1861 in Langford is John Turner. blacksmith & wife Sarah plus family including George age 13. George is not with the family in 1851 but there is a 2 year old G H Turner, visitor to family named Hare, a baker, in nearby Henlow. George's father John Turner, blacksmith of Langford married a Sarah Hare on 24 June 1839 at St.Pancras church.
Meanwhile in 1861 in Shortmead Street, Biggleswade is Edith Reed, widow age 50, upholsterer with daughter Emma age 8 born Biggleswade. Back 10 years to 1851 at same address is Samuel Reed age 48, vetenary with wife Edith age 40 plus 6 children. Samuel died in Sept 1855 age 52.
Mother Edith was nee Taylor and is said to have married Samuel Reid at St.Georges Middlesex on 26 Sept 1831 (although I've not seen this anywhere). Samuel & Edith are on 1841 & 1851 censuses with their children who seem to have been baptised/married with Taylor in their names. There is a baptism at Biggleswade on 12 May 1811 of Edith, daughter of Samuel & Mary Taylor, saddler, born Feb 25th.
Regards John
-
What additional information apart from later census for George & Emma is it that you are after
To help out Calpe and to save duplication: George Henry has been located from 1891 onwards living in Marylebone with new wife Jane. Emma and Beatrice are missing in 1881 and 1891. There are known addresses for around time of 1881 census and in 1891 but they aren't there on census night. Information is on the long Hamblin thread from page 26 onwards.
-
Based on kindly effort invested in the former 20,000 + view thread.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=339253.306
I have ordered the wedding certificate: George Henry Turner - Emma Ellen Reed
Year 1869. Qtr: Sept Dist: Biggleswade. Vol: 3b Page 569
This is snail mail ordered 05/07/2020, (my only option), so don’t hold your breath.
I have ordered what hopefully proves to be the main actor of this thread's birth cert.
I am fully aware Calpe has had this on order by post from April!! and has been chasing to no avail.
Its continued absence seems a major hinderance to progress.
Beatrice Lillian Turner. Year: 1872. Qtr.Sept. Dist. Luton Vol. 03b Pg.452
Due to the understandable problems, likely to be ongoing at the GRO.
This is a pdf upload order. Anothe recent took 14 days to arrive in my inbox. Fingers crossed.
Thank you for your kind interest
-
What additional information apart from later census for George & Emma is it that you are after
To help out Calpe and to save duplication: George Henry has been located from 1891 onwards living in Marylebone with new wife Jane. Emma and Beatrice are missing in 1881 and 1891. There are known addresses for around time of 1881 census and in 1891 but they aren't there on census night. Information is on the long Hamblin thread from page 26 onwards.
Pretty sure Calpe turned this up when much less was known. I cannot recall it being tested further or discounted.
North London Collegigate School, remained at Camden St London NW1, between 1850-1930.
Her birth date would make our BLT 14 in 1886. UK's first charitable school opened specificly for girls.
-
North London Collegigate School, remained at Camden St London NW1, between 1850-1930.
Her birth date would make our BLT 14 in 1886. UK's first charitable school opened specificly for girls.
[/quote]
FindMyPast School Records
(Spotted this yesterday but discounted because of YoB)
North London Collegiate School
Turner Beatrice Lilian, app date - Aug 21st, age - 16, address - 17 Chepstow Villas, Bayswater, parent/guardian - Ed. Hart Vivien MD (guardian), date of admission - 24 Jan 1884
Age at admission gives YoB 1868
-
I have come across this before.
FindMyPast has images for her admission to the N L Collegiate School in 1883/1884 at age 15/16
Beatrice Lilian Turner born 7 July 1867, father dead, guardian a physician
Previously at Royal Masonic School for Girls for 6 years
Guardian named as Edward Hart Vivian M.D. - address 17 Chepstow Villas, Bayswater
There is a BLT birth index Sept 1867 Ipswich RD mother maiden name Adams
1871 census in Westgate, Ipswich is a 3 year old BLT, daughter of George Augustus Joseph Turner, an auctioneer, with wife Mary, & in household is his 83 year old mother in law Mary Adams. Father died 8th June 1875 at Ipswich.
In 1881 census is BLT age 13 born Ipswich, scholar at Royal Masonic Institution For Girls, Battersea
-
Birth date is out but otherwise this looks like her and might explain the posh house and different background you mentioned on the old thread Richmond Parka?
Added
From that birth index that John has found it looks like this isn't her then. Edward H Vivian has a nephew Henry S Turner born Ipswich staying with him at Chepstow Villas in 1881
-
1881 29/65/74
The Vivians are at 17 Chepstow Villas.
There is a nephew - Henry S Turner , 22 yrs b Ipswich living with them.
-
Birth date is out but otherwise this looks like her and might explain the posh house and different background you mentioned on the old thread Richmond Parka?
Added
From that birth index that John has found it looks like this isn't her then. Edward H Vivian has a nephew Henry S Turner born Ipswich staying with him at Chepstow Villas in 1881
Thanks for all info johnP-Bedford.
I think we can now seriously dicount this BLT, although Beatrice was an olypian childbearer, It would mean she she gave birth to my to my mother in 1916 aged 49.
-
There is a nephew - Henry S Turner , 22 yrs b Ipswich living with them.
Henry S Turner is a son of George Augustus Joseph Turner & wife Mary, being age 2 on the 1861 census, therefore brother of this Beatrice
-
I'll leave this here for more qualified eyes.
More or less arrived as GRO predicted post. ETA.
This is posted to her lifelong partner Henry C Hamblins concurrent thread too
Entry of Marriage Certificate: George Henry Turner - Emma Ellen Reed
No. 132
when Married.:
When married 02/10/1869.
Name & Surename: George Henry Turner - Emma Ellen Reed
Age. George Henry turner 22. bachelor
Emma Ellen Reed 17 yrs, spinster.
Rank of profession: George Henry, Baker. Emma Ellen [-----]
Residence Time of marriage : G H Turner & E. E Reed. Both Biggleswade.
Father's name surname: John Turner......Profession, Blacksmith master.
Father's name surname: Samuel Reed....Profession: Veterinary Surgeon (Deceased)
Again thank you for your kind attention. I am not qualified to comment with this content.
-
Apologies to all for not getting back to your valuable posts.
I'll endeavor to do so asap.
Birth Certificate for a Beatrice Lilian Turner arrived today, 18/07/2020, from the G.R.O.
Requested 28/04/2020...
Dispatch date 05/05/2020? Two months ago!
Beatrice Lilian Turner, born 07/09/1872.
Father - George Henry Turner
Mother - Emma Ellen Turner, formerly Reed.
-
Fantastic! better late than never. It confirms what we thought and means all the Emma Ellen and George Henry shenanigans does belong to your family ;D
Also means the marriage cert for George Henry and Emma Ellen is the right as well. So all round good results.
Now if only we could actually find Beatrice, Emma and George in 1881 and Beatrice and Emma in 1891.....
-
Beatrice Lilian Turner, born 07/09/1872.
Father - George Henry Turner.
Mother - Emma Ellen Turner, formerly Reed.
We can see from the information Richmond Parka supplied from the Marriage Certificate of George Henry Turner & Emma Ellen Turner, formerly Reed, on the 2nd Sept. 1869.
That George's father was a John Turner, Blacksmith (master).
That Emma's father was a Samuel Reed (deceased), Veterinary Surgeon.
In the presence of: - Samuel Taylor Reed and Sophia Huckle.
-
Quote from concurrent heywood Henry C Hamblin thread.
Wed 15th July 2020
Likely death
Staines, Middlesex January 1944
Beatrice L Hamblin b abt 1873
There is a death in Wandsworth, 1948
Henry Hamlin Born abt 1873
I think I offered that for some reason on the other thread.”
~~~~~~~~-----
#Metoo. Pretty sure heywood presented these in prehistory within the old thread.
These death certificates are on order now in pdf form. I should know any actors appearing on sight. They seem a good fit now.
My usual disclaimer, I am a novice here & not qualified to give helpful answers.
I have posted this on her long term partner Henry C Hamblin’s parallel thread keeping us on the same page.
Thanks for your kind attention RP
-
Birth Certificate for a Beatrice Lilian Turner arrived today...
Beatrice Lilian Turner, born 07/09/1872.
Father - George Henry Turner
Mother - Emma Ellen Turner, formerly Reed.
Have you an address where the birth took place ?
Also 1939 Register has her birth as 7th July 1872 although looking at the image month could be a 9 rather than a 7?
-
Birth Certificate for a Beatrice Lilian Turner arrived today...
Beatrice Lilian Turner, born 07/09/1872.
Father - George Henry Turner
Mother - Emma Ellen Turner, formerly Reed.
Have you an address where the birth took place ?
Also 1939 Register has her birth as 7th July 1872 although looking at the image month could be a 9 rather than a 7?
I think it is a 9. The blue writing over makes it look like a 7 at a glance.
-
Like No.11 buses! The Beatrice Lilian Turner Birth PDF cert arrived today.
Superintendent Registrar’s District: Luton Reg district : Luton.
1872 BIRTHS District of : Luton, County: Beds & Herts
When where born: 07/09/1872 - London Rd, Luton Beds
Name: Beatrice Lilian Sex: girl
Name father: George Henry Turner
Name/ MN Mother Emma Ellen Turner, Formerly Reed
Prof. Father Baker
Informant.: Emma Ellen Turner , mother London Rd, Luton Beds
Registered: 25/09/1872
Signed off by reg- Bapt: Blank.
All information crown copyright propety
-
Just for interest, London Rd is a continuation of Castle St and isn't far from Langley Rd (now Latimer Rd) where they were in 1881.
No relevance whatsoever but this is the area of Luton my mum's dad's side of the family lived in. She grew up there.
-
Beatrice Lilian Turner - Henry Cyril Hamblin’s eldest sons birth cert. arrived.
Henry George Hamblin.
Superintendent Registrar's District: Fulham,
1896 BIRTHS Sub District of : St Paul Hammersmith. Co: London.
When where born: 5th Jan 1896 Abdale Rd
Name: Henry George Sex: Boy
Name/Sur father: Henry Hamblin
Name/ MN Mother: Beatrice Lilian Hamblin, formerly Turner
Prof. Father: Cab driver.
Sig./Des/Res.Infor: B L Hamblin, mother. 50, Abdale Rd, Shepherds Bush.
Registered: 12 Feb 1896
Signed off by reg- Bapt: Blank.
I will post this to the parallel thread of lifetime partner Henry Cyril Hamblin too.
I am unqualified to give responces of a knowlegable research nature.
All information supplied copyright crown property.
-
Both death certs arrived for Beatrice & Henry, correct ID. I'll post both threads,as they lean on each other. Thank you again heywood for great work.
BEATRICE
Reg Dist. STAINS, 1944 DEATHS sub dept. STAINS, MIDDLESEX
Where & when 27 Feb 1948, “Thesrall”, London Rd, Stanwell, Stains , Middx. (attach handwritten)
Name: Beatrice Lilian Hamblin. - Female 71yrs.
Rank/Prof: of, 12, Fielding Rd, Chiswick W.4. wife of TAXI CAB DRIVER.Cause Stroke.
Informant: W. (Walter “Wally" Hamblin) in atten, Son. 50, Stains Rd, Houslow.
Reg date: 29 Feb 1944. Signed off:-
HENRY
Reg Dist. WANDSWORTH, 1948 DEATHS sub dist. of Tooting, WANDSWORTH
Where & when: 11 May 1948, Tooting Bec Hospital.
Name: Henry Hamblin. - Male 75yrs.
Rank/Prof: of 50, Stains Rd. Hounslow Middx. TAXI CAB DRIVER.
Cause Cardio: Informant. H. Hamblin. Son. 25 Springwell Road Heston Middx. Reg date: 30 May 1948.
(12, Fielding rd was my childhood home. They lived with “us” around WW2 years, I being their youngest Grandson born much later..
I hope to identify Henry’s; H ? Hamblin informant, (3 brothers had H initial),
Plus, in who’s Home Beatrice died. Eldest son Henry G Hamblin is my best bet for both. I need to hear back from 2 cousins before commenting further.
Thank you all again. Richmond Parka.
-
" Thesrall" I am reliably informed, on the other thread was in fact "The Hall "a eufamistic name for the emergeny Hospital where Beatrice ended her days in Stains.
-
Thanks JohnP-bedford for these finds a month ago on the prior thread, and Janan’s intuitive comments of possible adoption , coupled with my cousin repeating his father Horace’s,(Beatrice’s 3rd son), account of her past. living in a large house in town, then disowned with child, they assuming "her home" to be her parents.
Contained on this Hamblin page includes details of both children’s deaths in 1880.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=339253.288
Seem’s plausible that Beatrice could have been parked somewhere through her adolescence, officially/unofficially, both my Cousin & Uncle Horace always the smartest person in the room, I’d never dismiss any comment they offered out of hand.
BLANCHE MABEL MADELINE EDITH TURNER. Birth Cert 1879
Reg dist. MARYLEBONE. Sub Dist. ALL SOULS. Middlesex.
Where when: O6/06/1879, 76 great Portland Street
Name: Blanche Mabel Madeline Edith. Girl.
Name father. George Henry Turner
Name MN of mother: Emma Ellen Turner, formerly Reed.
Rank prof. father: House Decorator
Sig & res of inform: E E Turner Mother,76 Great Portland Street. Marylebone
When Reg: 14/ 07/ 1879 (not 100% sure with Fourteenth)- Signed off.
CLARENCE HENRY THOMAS HARE TURNER. Birth Cert 1877
Reg dist. MARYLEBONE. Sub Dist. ALL SOULS. Middlesex.
Where when: 2, Upper Ogle Street
Name: Clarence Henry Thomas Hare. Boy.
Name father. George Henry Turner
Name MN of mother: Emma Ellen Turner, formerly Reed.
Rank, prof. father: House Painter:
Sig & res of informant: E E Turner Mother. 2, Upper Ogle Street Marylebone.
When Reg: 22/08/1877 - Signed off.
Information crown copyright property.
-
It is a shame that both Blanche & Clarence died in 1880 so cannot be used to trace parents on 1881 census. Blanche died June 1880 age 0 & Clarence died Sept 1880 both in St.Pancras RD. Maybe the death index might reveal a more recent (to 1881) address of parents.
-
Both death certs arrived for Beatrice & Henry, correct ID. I'll post both threads,as they lean on each other. Thank you again heywood for great work.
BEATRICE
Reg Dist. STAINS, 1944 DEATHS sub dept. STAINS, MIDDLESEX
Where & when 27 Feb 1948, “Thesrall”, London Rd, Stanwell, Stains , Middx. (attach handwritten)
Name: Beatrice Lilian Hamblin. - Female 71yrs.
Rank/Prof: of, 12, Fielding Rd, Chiswick W.4. wife of TAXI CAB DRIVER.Cause Stroke.
Informant: W. (Walter “Wally" Hamblin) in atten, Son. 50, Stains Rd, Houslow.
Reg date: 29 Feb 1944. Signed off:-
Could I just add that it is Staines not Stains ;).
Now called Staines upon Thames
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staines-upon-Thames
-
Thanks rosie99 nipping this error in the bud.
Stains! the typo from hell to both Staines residents & their estate agents alike. ;D
A spelling conflict maybe exists in Hamblin thread entering early as 2008.
Beatrice & Henry's eldest son Henry George Hamblins wife Sophie Street.
Looking broadly on BMD for Henry & Beatrices "marriage", both inexpertly & despite myself, Henry jnr & Sophies marriage index appeared:
Hamblin Henry G Streat Brentford 3a 356a.
I am poor judge to weigh what is/not relevent, but....
-
George Henry Turner age 22 and Emma Ellen Reed married in Biggleswade in Sept 1869.
On 1871 Census they are together at Langley Rd, Luton. George is 24, born Langford (1847), a baker and Emma is 18 born Biggleswade (1853), no children.
Back to 1861 in Langford is John Turner. blacksmith & wife Sarah plus family including George age 13. George is not with the family in 1851 but there is a 2 year old G H Turner, visitor to family named Hare, a baker, in nearby Henlow. George's father John Turner, blacksmith of Langford married a Sarah Hare on 24 June 1839 at St.Pancras church.
Meanwhile in 1861 in Shortmead Street, Biggleswade is Edith Reed, widow age 50, upholsterer with daughter Emma age 8 born Biggleswade. Back 10 years to 1851 at same address is Samuel Reed age 48, vetenary with wife Edith age 40 plus 6 children. Samuel died in Sept 1855 age 52.
Mother Edith was nee Taylor and is said to have married Samuel Reid at St.Georges Middlesex on 26 Sept 1831 (although I've not seen this anywhere). Samuel & Edith are on 1841 & 1851 censuses with their children who seem to have been baptised/married with Taylor in their names. There is a baptism at Biggleswade on 12 May 1811 of Edith, daughter of Samuel & Mary Taylor, saddler, born Feb 25th.
Regards John
Apologies to you all for not recognising your valuable inputs and not having got back earlier.
Queries to this post if i may (other queries to the other posts coming), as i really need to get my teeth around so much information and enter the facts on my Family Tree Maker PC program.
I have rewritten the vast information John has kindly posted but i need to place things so they appear clearer to me. Can they please be checked and confirmed?
George H. Turner, 22 & Emma E. Reed married in Biggleswade Sept. 1869.
1871 Census living together at Langley Rd, Luton, George, born 1847 in Langford, age 24 and Emma Ellen Reed was born 1853 is aged 18.
In 1861 there is a John Turner in Langford, a Blacksmith & his wife Sarah. Family (how many & names etc?) includes George aged 13.
In 1851 George for some reason is not with the family? Is it known why? The 1871 Census says he was born in 1847, therefore he would have only been 4 years old?
In 1851 'there is a 2 year old G H Turner, visitor to family named Hare, a baker, in nearby Henlow'.
Again going by the 1871 Census George would have been 4? What does it mean 'a visitor'?
So George H. Turner's father was John Turner, a Blacksmith of Langford. How is it known that John Turner was George's father, and a Blacksmith?
So on 24/06/1839 George Turner's father, John Turner married a Sarah Hare at St. Pancras Church Bedfordshire?
In 1861, in Shortmead St, Biggleswade is a Edith Reed, widow, age 50, an upholsterer, is with her daughter Emma, age 8, born in Biggleswade. So this would make Emma's birth year 1853 as per 1871 Census.
10 years earlier in 1851, same Shortmead St, is a Samuel Reed, age 48, a Vet with his wife Edith & 6 children. Samuel died Sept. 1855, age 52. Birth year would then be approx. 1803?
Edith Reed, nee Taylor apparently married Samuel Reid (or Reed?) at St. George's Middx, 26/09/1831.
1841 & 1851 Census both Edith and Samuel are listed with their children, whom apparently were baptised/married with Taylor in their names?
Lastly, John kindly tells us that on 12/05/1811 Edith is baptised in Biggleswade, daughter of Samuel & Mary Taylor, saddler, born Feb 25th, 1811.
-
"In 1851 'there is a 2 year old G H Turner, visitor to family named Hare, a baker, in nearby Henlow'.
Again going by the 1871 Census George would have been 4? What does it mean 'a visitor'?"
That must be him. Hare is a family name. Didn't he have a daughter something Hare Turner who is with him in 1911? Haven't got time to check back at moment. Wouldn't worry about the age discrepancy, that was probably their best guess! Visitor would mean he was visiting on the night of the census.
Jan
-
In 1851 G.H. Turner age 2 born Langford was Visitor to, I think, his maternal grandmother's family headed by Ann Hare age 62 widow, baker & having 6 of her unmarried children still living there. Back 10 years to 1841 Ann Hare is age 50 a baker, nobody there of an age to be her husband, but she still had 7 children in the household. On Sarah Hare's marriage to John Turner on 24 June 1839 it says her father was Thomas Hare, dead.... a Thomas Hare was buried Henlow on 22 Apr 1839 aged 56. However cannot find marriage of Thomas Hare to Ann in around 1814-1815, based on ages of oldest children in the censuses.
Meanwhile John & Sarah Turner who married in 1839 are in Langford on 1841 census with 1 year old son William. In 1851 they are still in Langford with 11 year old William, plus Thomas 5 & Elizabeth 9. On 1861 census in Langford, John & Sarah with George age 13, plus 6 other children.
-
johnPbedford
“The George Henry Turner we know was a house painter as per 1891, 1901 & 1911 census, also in 1882-1884 when he was in Foley Street fathering 2 Pope children, and before that in Nov 1879 when he & wife Emma were in Charlotte Street as per Beds Archives record. We've not found him in 1881 census. Before that in 1871 in Luton he was a baker.”
It is a shame that both Blanche & Clarence died in 1880 so cannot be used to trace parents on 1881 census. Blanche died June 1880 age 0 & Clarence died Sept 1880 both in St.Pancras RD. Maybe the death index might reveal a more recent (to 1881) address of parents.
I'll leave this here.
Clarence Henry Thomas Turner death cert
Dist. Pancras. Sub. Tottenham Court. Middlesex
Where/When 27 August 1880, 68 Charlotte St.
Name: Clarence Henry Thomas Turner, Male 3
Rank prof: Son of George Henry Turner, Housepainter
Cause: Scarlet fever complications.
Informant: Mary Ann Jones. Present at death.
15, James St. Manchester Square, St Marylebone. Reg. 31 Aug 1880
information Copyright crown property.
To save trawling. These entries from old thread where address occurs.
Janan
“I was a bit puzzled about the reference to a marriage, certainly can't find one. I've not found anything useful from Mrs Murray's address.
In addition I still can't find Emma, George Henry or Beatrice in 1881.
This entry: George Henry Turner of 68 Charlotte Street, Fitzroy Square, County of Middlesex, painter. Emma Ellen Taylor Turner, his wife (mortgagors)
http://bedsarchivescat.bedford.gov.uk/Details/archive/110463475
is for 1879 but I haven't yet discovered who was at that address in 1881, will go and look.
Janan
Unfortunately although there are lots of people living at 68 Charlotte St in 1881 none of them are of any help in finding the Turners “
johnPbedford
“The George Henry Turner we know was a house painter as per 1891, 1901 & 1911 census, also in 1882-1884 when he was in Foley Street fathering 2 Pope children, and before that in Nov 1879 when he & wife Emma were in Charlotte Street as per Beds Archives record. We've not found him in 1881 census. Before that in 1871 in Luton he was a baker.”
-
No clues from Mary Ann Jones sadly.
1881 144/10/11
15 James Street Marylebone
Joseph Jones 66 Yrs
Mary Ann Jones 56 yrs
Elizth. Jones 13 yrs
Mary Ann Cantrell 29 yrs
All born London
-
I'll leave this here.
Clarence Henry Thomas Turner death cert
Dist. Pancras. Sub. Tottenham Court. Middlesex
Where/When 27 August 1880, 68 Charlotte St.
Name: Clarence Henry Thomas Turner, Male 3
Rank prof: Son of George Henry Turner, Housepainter
Cause: Scarlet fever complications.
Informant: Mary Ann Jones. Present at death.
15, James St. Manchester Square, St Marylebone. Reg. 31 Aug 1880
information Copyright crown property.
[/quote]
I have the death cert. of 10 month old infant Blanche Mabel Madeleine Edith Turner, died 13/04/1880, unsuprisingly it contained nothing new from her 3 year old brother Clarence who died 6 months before. The informant again a M A Jones. 15 James St, Oxford St, Marylebone.
-
Pretty sure Calpe turned this up when much less was known. I cannot recall it being tested further or discounted.
North London Collegigate School, remained at Camden St London NW1, between 1850-1930. Her birth date would make our BLT 14 in 1886. UK's first charitable school opened specifically for girls.
[/quote]
During the summer period it's so hard to get into depth, and with so much information from you all. A late thanks.
Not wanting to show my ignorance but from the cutting i posted some time ago of Beatrice, we see that she attended a charitable school: -
University of London Student Records 47594_B377767-00161.
Why would she have been sent to the North London Collegiate School? In attendance June 1886, aged 14.
-
I have come across this before.
FindMyPast has images for her admission to the N L Collegiate School in 1883/1884 at age 15/16
Beatrice Lilian Turner born 7 July 1867, father dead, guardian a physician
Previously at Royal Masonic School for Girls for 6 years
Guardian named as Edward Hart Vivian M.D. - address 17 Chepstow Villas, Bayswater
There is a BLT birth index Sept 1867 Ipswich RD mother maiden name Adams, 1871 census in Westgate, Ipswich is a 3 year old BLT, daughter of George Augustus Joseph Turner, an auctioneer, with wife Mary, & in household is his 83 year old mother in law Mary Adams. Father died 8th June 1875 at Ipswich. In 1881 census is BLT age 13 born Ipswich, scholar at Royal Masonic Institution For Girls, Battersea
Thanks for this. Sorry but I'm way behind on all the posts and sifting through them one by one.
Dare i say that this is not the same Beatrice Lilian Turner. We know 'our' B.L.Turner's birth date was 07/09/1872, born Luton, Bedfordshire.
-
That Beatrice was discounted earlier.
-
Birth date is out but otherwise this looks like her and might explain the posh house and different background you mentioned on the old thread Richmond Parka?
Added - From that birth index that John has found it looks like this isn't her then. Edward H Vivian has a nephew Henry S Turner born Ipswich staying with him at Chepstow Villas in 1881
Thanks Janan for clearing that up
-
1881 29/65/74
The Vivians are at 17 Chepstow Villas. There is a nephew - Henry S Turner , 22 yrs b Ipswich living with them.
Trying to clear up matters and go through as many posts as i can today.
If the Beatrice L.Turner that was named in post 11, then the guardian named as E.H. Vivien/Vivian in posts 11, 12, 13 & 14 do not also apply?
-
FindMyPast has images for her admission to the N L Collegiate School in 1883/1884 at age 15/16
Beatrice Lilian Turner born 7 July 1867, father dead, guardian a physician
Previously at Royal Masonic School for Girls for 6 years
Guardian named as Edward Hart Vivian M.D. - address 17 Chepstow Villas, Bayswater
There is a BLT birth index Sept 1867 Ipswich RD mother maiden name Adams
1871 census in Westgate, Ipswich is a 3 year old BLT, daughter of George Augustus Joseph Turner, an auctioneer, with wife Mary, & in household is his 83 year old mother in law Mary Adams. Father died 8th June 1875 at Ipswich. In 1881 census is BLT age 13 born Ipswich, scholar at Royal Masonic Institution For Girls, Battersea
We have already said that this BLT is not the one you are looking for.....
Case closed...
-
There is a nephew - Henry S Turner , 22 yrs b Ipswich living with them.
Henry S Turner is a son of George Augustus Joseph Turner & wife Mary, being age 2 on the 1861 census, therefore brother of this Beatrice
I am very slowly catching up on all the posts, so please forgive me.
From the quote above, please correct me if i'm wrong.
'brother of this Beatrice' So this is not Beatrice Lilian Turner born 07-09-1872 in Luton?
So the B.L.Turner who is shown in attendance at the North London Collegiate School is not our B.L.Turner?
-
There is a nephew - Henry S Turner , 22 yrs b Ipswich living with them.
Henry S Turner is a son of George Augustus Joseph Turner & wife Mary, being age 2 on the 1861 census, therefore brother of this Beatrice
I am very slowly catching up on all the posts, so please forgive me.
From the quote above, please correct me if i'm wrong.
'brother of this Beatrice' So this is not Beatrice Lilian Turner born 07-09-1872 in Luton?
So the B.L.Turner who is shown in attendance at the North London Collegiate School is not our B.L.Turner?
Hi Calpe
You are correct, she is not your Beatrice
Jan
-
Birth Certificate for a Beatrice Lilian Turner arrived today...
Beatrice Lilian Turner, born 07/09/1872. Father - George Henry Turner
Mother - Emma Ellen Turner, formerly Reed.
Have you an address where the birth took place ?
Also 1939 Register has her birth as 7th July 1872 although looking at the image month could be a 9 rather than a 7?
Thanks John. It is definitely a 1872 birth. As written on certificate - 'Seventh September 1872, London Road, Luton, Beds'. As can be seen in reply 24.
-
It is a shame that both Blanche & Clarence died in 1880 so cannot be used to trace parents on 1881 census. Blanche died June 1880 age 0 & Clarence died Sept 1880 both in St.Pancras RD. Maybe the death index might reveal a more recent (to 1881) address of parents.
Thanks again all.
Clarence H.T.H. Turner born 21/07/1877, died 27/08/1880, aged 3 & 1 month.
Blanche M. Turner born 06/06/1879, died 13/04/1880, 10 months old
-
Thanks rosie99 nipping this error in the bud.
Stains! the typo from hell to both Staines residents & their estate agents alike. ;D
A spelling conflict maybe exists in Hamblin thread entering early as 2008. Beatrice & Henry's eldest son Henry George Hamblins wife Sophie Street.
Looking broadly on BMD for Henry & Beatrices "marriage", both inexpertly & despite myself, Henry jnr & Sophies marriage index appeared: Hamblin Henry G Streat Brentford 3a 356a.
I am poor judge to weigh what is/not relevent, but....
Typo errors of the Registrar or that he mis-interpreted the name when it was asked and then spelt it as he thought it was spelt. In another thread my Grand Father's surname was Clare, but the Registrar spelt it as Clear! A nightmare for the researchers.
-
In 1851 G.H. Turner age 2 born Langford was Visitor to, I think, his maternal grandmother's family headed by Ann Hare age 62 widow, baker & having 6 of her unmarried children still living there. Back 10 years to 1841 Ann Hare is age 50 a baker, nobody there of an age to be her husband, but she still had 7 children in the household. On Sarah Hare's marriage to John Turner on 24 June 1839 it says her father was Thomas Hare, dead.... a Thomas Hare was buried Henlow on 22 Apr 1839 aged 56. However cannot find marriage of Thomas Hare to Ann in around 1814-1815, based on ages of oldest children in the censuses.
Meanwhile John & Sarah Turner who married in 1839 are in Langford on 1841 census with 1 year old son William. In 1851 they are still in Langford with 11 year old William, plus Thomas 5 & Elizabeth 9. On 1861 census in Langford, John & Sarah with George age 13, plus 6 other children.
John, just to thank you for all the information you have placed here, i will now add it all to the Power/Clare/Hamblin/Turner (plus others) family tree i have running on Family Tree Maker.
Many thanks too, to all you posters who have gone out of their way to help on this thread.
I feel now that it would be a good idea to filter facts about George Henry Turner, who had married Emma Ellen Reed, but then later was with a lady called Jane.
We now know that Samuel Reed married a Edith Taylor 26/09/1831. But Edith appears to have had 6 children, 5 of whom appear to have their surname as Taylor, and one being Emma Ellen. Was Emma Ellen a Reed or a Taylor by birth?
-
We now know that Samuel Reed married a Edith Taylor 26/09/1831. But Edith appears to have had 6 children, 5 of whom appear to have their surname as Taylor, and one being Emma Ellen. Was Emma Ellen a Reed or a Taylor by birth?
Samuel Reed & Edith Taylor had 6 children on 1851 census, Mary age 15, Anne 13, Samuel 10, Thomas 8, Eliza Ann 4 & Edith 6 months (the first 3 repeat on 1841 census). They are all have surname Reed, however apart from Edith they all have an additional first name of Taylor, this is as per their baptisms & later marriages from parish registers. Father Samuel died in 1855 & on 1861 census widow Edith is with 8 year old daughter Emma who I've not seen with first name Taylor apart from those records from the Beds Archives catalogue.
Cheerts John
-
Both death certs arrived for Beatrice & Henry, correct ID. I'll post both threads,as they lean on each other. Thank you again heywood for great work.
BEATRICE
Reg Dist. STAINS, 1944 DEATHS sub dept. STAINS, MIDDLESEX
Where & when 27 Feb 1948, “Thesrall”, London Rd, Stanwell, Stains , Middx. (attach handwritten)
Name: Beatrice Lilian Hamblin. - Female 71yrs.
Rank/Prof: of, 12, Fielding Rd, Chiswick W.4. wife of TAXI CAB DRIVER.Cause Stroke.
Informant: W. (Walter “Wally" Hamblin) in atten, Son. 50, Stains Rd, Houslow.
Reg date: 29 Feb 1944. Signed off:-
HENRY
Reg Dist. WANDSWORTH, 1948 DEATHS sub dist. of Tooting, WANDSWORTH
Where & when: 11 May 1948, Tooting Bec Hospital.
Name: Henry Hamblin. - Male 75yrs.
Rank/Prof: of 50, Stains Rd. Hounslow Middx. TAXI CAB DRIVER.
Cause Cardio: Informant. H. Hamblin. Son. 25 Springwell Road Heston Middx. Reg date: 30 May 1948.
Just a small correction: -
Beatrice Lilian Turner - died 27-02-1944
-
[quote author=johnP-bedford
Samuel Reed & Edith Taylor had 6 children on 1851 census, Mary age 15, Anne 13, Samuel 10, Thomas 8, Eliza Ann 4 & Edith 6 months (the first 3 repeat on 1841 census). They are all have surname Reed, however apart from Edith they all have an additional first name of Taylor, this is as per their baptisms & later marriages from parish registers. Father Samuel died in 1855 & on 1861 census widow Edith is with 8 year old daughter Emma who I've not seen with first name Taylor apart from those records from the Beds Archives catalogue.
Cheers John [/quote]
Absolutely fantastic information JohnP, though i'm a little puzzled.
You've kindly given the names, ages etc but i'm at a loss about their surnames and having an additional first name of Taylor etc.
So how would their names be written?
It's just i have things clear and then to be able to enter all the information in my Family Tree Maker program.
As for Edith's 8 year old daughter (1861 Census), Emma, (born 1853?) the father is assumed to be Samuel Reed, who passed away in 1855.
You've mentioned that "as per their baptisms & later marriages from parish registers".
Please advise how i would be able to see this information?
With thanks
-
[/i]
[quote author=johnP-bedford
Samuel Reed & Edith Taylor had 6 children on 1851 census, Mary age 15, Anne 13, Samuel 10, Thomas 8, Eliza Ann 4 & Edith 6 months (the first 3 repeat on 1841 census). They are all have surname Reed, however apart from Edith they all have an additional first name of Taylor, this is as per their baptisms & later marriages from parish registers. Father Samuel died in 1855 & on 1861 census widow Edith is with 8 year old daughter Emma who I've not seen with first name Taylor apart from those records from the Beds Archives catalogue.
Cheers John
[/b]
Absolutely fantastic information JohnP, though i'm a little puzzled.
You've kindly given the names, ages etc but i'm at a loss about their surnames and having an additional first name of Taylor etc.
So how would their names be written?
It's just i have things clear and then to be able to enter all the information in my Family Tree Maker program.
As for Edith's 8 year old daughter (1861 Census), Emma, (born 1853?) the father is assumed to be Samuel Reed, who passed away in 1855?
You've mentioned that "as per their baptisms & later marriages from parish registers".
Please advise how i would be able to see this information?
With thanks
[/quote]
When possible i'd appreciate some advise on the above.
With thanks
-
Just wondering where i might find information on these: -
Beatrice Lilian Turner's (born 07 Sep 1872) marriage to Henry Hamblin (born about 1873)?
Beatrice Lilian Turner's daughter - Violet Mabel Ellen Turner, born 18 Jun 1891.
Father not named on her birth certificate.
When did Violet Mabel Ellen Turner officially become a Hamblin?
Would this be registered somewhere?
Thanks in advance
-
When did Violet Mabel Ellen Turner officially become a Hamblin?
Would this be registered somewhere?
You can call yourself what you like as long as it is not for fraudulent purposes, it does not have to be changed legally
-
Beatrice Lilian Turner's daughter - Violet Mabel Ellen Turner, born 18 Jun 1891.
Father not named on her birth certificate.
When did Violet Mabel Ellen Turner officially become a Hamblin?
Would this be registered somewhere?
Rosie99, indeed 'calling yourself what you like' may well have been the case, but...
On legal documents surely this wouldn't be the case?
-
As Violet Mary was her surname Turner or Hamblin on her marriage certificate when she became your grandmother? & does the marriage certificate tell us her father's name?
While she may be Beatrice's daughter is there any proof that Henry Hamblin was the natural father? as she may have met up with HH after the birth
-
As Violet Mary was her surname Turner or Hamblin on her marriage certificate when she became your grandmother? & does the marriage certificate tell us her father's name?
While she may be Beatrice's daughter is there any proof that Henry Hamblin was the natural father? as she may have met up with HH after the birth
Thank you for your response.
The problem with my grandmother, was the variation of names ive seen on documents.
But i believe that was cleared up when Richmond Parks obtained her birth certificate.
On Violet Mabel Turner (birth surname) marriage certificate her name is entered as: -
Mary Violet Hamblin.
Father's full name is entered as Henry Hamblin, Taxi driver.
There is no proof yet that Henry was the father.
Violet Mabel married in Dublin, 1920, aged 29.
-
Rosie99, indeed 'calling yourself what you like' may well have been the case, but...
On legal documents surely this wouldn't be the case?
Yes it would be the case, she could call herself whatever she liked unless it was for fraudulent purposes.
-
[/i]
Absolutely fantastic information JohnP, though i'm a little puzzled.
You've kindly given the names, ages etc but i'm at a loss about their surnames and having an additional first name of Taylor etc.
So how would their names be written?
It's just i have things clear and then to be able to enter all the information in my Family Tree Maker program.
You've mentioned that "as per their baptisms & later marriages from parish registers".
Please advise how i would be able to see this information?
[/i]
When possible i'd appreciate some advise on the above.
With thanks
Their surname is REED and they have an additional first name of TAYLOR
Mary 1835, Ann 1838, Samuel 1843 & Thomas 1843 were baptised at Biggleswade as Reed in the years quoted with Taylor as additional first name.
Mary was married in 1858 in Biggleswade
Samuel was married in 1865 in Bigggleswade
Eliza Ann Taylor Reed was baptised in Luton in 1866 & married in Luton in 1868
These are all as the Beds FHS Surnames Index CD, some correlated to entries on FamilySearch
You will need to verify using the Biggleswade & Luton parish registers
Regards John
-
From the Beds FHS Biggleswade baptism transcripts (1637-1852), for parents Samuel & Edith:
Baptisms - St Andrew, Biggleswade:
20 May 1832 - Mary Taylor REED; cow leach
26 Jan 1834 - Sarah REED; farrier
22 Nov 1835 - Mary Taylor REED; cow leach
09 Sep 1835 - Ann Taylor REED; cow leach
06 Jun 1841 - Samuel Taylor READ; farrier; privately
04 Jun 1843 - Samuel REED; farrier; born 31 Dec 1840
04 Jun 1843 - Thomas Taylor REED; farrier; born 02 Mar 1843
As John says, the baptisms are recorded under the name REED/READ.
FamilySearch does have images of the register but you have to access the site from certain locations, so not much use from home unfortunately. I don't believe there's any other online source for the images (no doubt John would have already mentioned it if there was).
FamilySearch Catalog:
Parish registers for Biggleswade, 1697-1888
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/87273?availability=Family%20History%20Library
-
I feel now that it would be a good idea to filter facts about George Henry Turner, who had married Emma Ellen Reed, but then later was with a lady called Jane.
Here's what I've put together over past week or so.... it's a lot to take in & there may be more later
George Henry Turner was born 1847 in Langford, son of John Turner & Sarah Hare.
1851 census G H Turner age 3 in Henlow with maternal grand-parents Hare
1861 census with parents & siblings in Langford age 13
At age 22 he married Emma Ellen Reed age 17 on 2 Oct 1869 at Clifton Baptist Chapel
1871 census at 19 Langley road Luton, age 24, baker with wife Emma age 18
Daughter Beatrice Lilian Turner born 7th Sept 1872 at London Road, Luton, GHT a baker
They then move to Middlesex.....
July 1877 son Clarence Henry Thomas Hare Turner born 2 Upper Ogle Street, Marylebone
June 1879 daughter Blanche Mabel Madeline Edith Turner born 76 Great Portland Street
Apr 1880 Blanche died age 10 months 68 Charlotte Street
Aug 1880 Clarence died age 3 68 Charlotte Street
Father GHT now a house painter, mother Emma ne Reed
Nov 1879 George & Emma at 68 Charlotte Street – as per Beds Archives
1880 Electoral Roll possible GHT 179 Gloucester Road, Marylebone ??
1881 census GHT ??
1881 census Gillespie Road, Highbury, Kezia Hardy age 48 widow & daughters Jane 24 & Hannah 20
Apr 1882 Elizabeth Pope born 42 Foley Street
Oct 1883 as per Beds Archives, Jane Pope alleged GHT of 42 Foley Street, the putative father
Sept 1884 Georgina Pope born 42 Foley Street
Around 1884 GHT separated from wife Emma – as per Beds Archives
Dec 1884 Ernest Charles Hardy born Islington, son of Hannah Hardy
15 Apr 1887 Violet Hetty Hardy born Gillespie Road, Highbury, Islington, daughter of Hannah Hardy born, illegitimate – could GHT be the father ?
1890 Electoral Roll GHT at 3 Little Titchfield Street, Cavendish Square
1890 GHT married Jane Hardy ??
1891 census at 6or7 Little Titchfield Street, George Henry Turner age 43, born Langford, House Painter with wife Jane Turner age 34 born Bury St.Edmunds ,Tailoress ne Hardy
1891 census 16 Myrtle Road, Highbury, Kezia Hardy 58 widow, daughter Hannah age 30 & grand children Ernest age 6 & age Violet 3 both born Islington
10 June 1891 Violet Mabel Ellen Turner born, mother Beatrice Lilian Turner, at 12 Chesterfield Street, father unknown
Oct 1891 as per Beds Archives – Emma Ellen (Reed) Turner was married to GHT – but seperated from him 5/6 years ago – she married ?Alchin
Nov 1891 as per Beds Archives - letter from Emma Ellen Turner c/o 12 Chesterfield Street
London Electoral Roll, 1893 – 1900, GHT at 9 Little Titchfield Street
21 July 1896 Marylebone - Hetty Sarah Hare Turner born – mother Hardy, assume Jane, father GHT
1901 census at 9 Little Titchfield Street
GHT age 52 House Painter & wife Jane age 44
1901 census at 16 Myrtle Road
Kezia Hardy, widow age 68 & daughter Hannah Hardy age 40 single, laudress & grand-daughters Kitty Turner age 4 & Violet Hardy age 13 & grandson Ernest Hardy 16
Sept 1902 Kezia Hardy died Islington age 70
London Electoral Roll, 1902 – 1909, GHT at 9 Little Titchfield Street
Mar 1907 Ernest Charles Hardy married Florence Annie Jeffries at St.Pancas RD
June 1908 Marylebone Jane Turner died age 51 (1857)
Mar 1909 Islington, Violet Hetty Hardy married Frederick Ernest Walker
They had son Frederick George in Sept 1910 Hackney RD
1911 census at 15 Summerhouse Road, Stoke Newington (Hackney RD)
Frederick Walker age 27, born Stoke Newington, carrier and wife Hetty Walker age 24 born Islington & son Frederick age 8 months born Stoke Newington
1911 census at 9 Little Titchfield Street
GHT age 63, widower House Painter, married 21 years, 1 child
Hannah Hardy sister in law, single age 50 housekeeper
Hetty Sarah Hare Turner age 14 Tailoress
Regards John
-
(continued........ )
London Electoral Roll, 1913, 1914 & 1915, GHT at 9 Little Titchfield Street
2nd Sept 1918 Corporal Frederick Ernest Walker killed WW1 France
19 Jan 1918 Hetty Sarah Hare Turner age 21, address 9 Little Titchfield Street, father George Henry Turner, house decorator – married Ernest MacDonald, age 34, staff sergeant AOC, at All Souls Marylebone
London Electoral Registers at 9 Little Titchfield Street, George Henry Turner from 1918 up to 1934 *
As well as GHT at that address, other members of his family resided there, the property was divided over 5 floors. In 1918 Frederick Ernest Walker & wife Violet Hetty, then 1919 to 1924 is Ernest McDonald & Violet Hetty Walker. 1925 to 1930 we now have (Mrs?) Hannah Hardy & Hettie Sarah McDonald & John William Weston & his wife Violet Hetty. This carries on 1931 to 1934 adding Frederick George Walker .
Dec 1924 Marylebone widow Violet H Walker married John William Weston, widower
They had son Douglas Alfred Mar 1925
Dec 1934 Marylebone Frederick George Walker married Olive Turner
Sept 1936 Hannah Hardy died age 75 (1861) Marylebone RD
June 1936 George H Turner died age 88 (1848) Kensington RD
1938 & 1939 Electoral Roll at 9 Little Titchfield Street are Ernest McDonald & wife Hettie Sarah, plus Frederick George Walker & wife Olive, plus John William Weston & wide Violet Hetty
1939 Register at 9 Little Titchfield Street
(1) John W Weston 1879 bricklayer & Violet H 5/4/1887 & Douglas A 1925
(2) Frederick G Walker 1910 painter/paper hanger & Olive 1915 & Derek 1935
(3) Hetty S H McDonald 1896 widow, tailoress
June 1946 Violet H Weston died Marylebone age 59 (1887)
1946-1954 Electoral Roll at 9 Little Titchfield Street
Hetty S H McDonald, Frederick & Olive Walker, & John Weston (& Douglas Weston from 1950)
Sept 1953 Douglas A Weston married Patricia J Tompson at Wandsworth RD
Dec 1969 Hetty S H McDonald born 21/7/1896 died Rochford, Essex
that's it for now
-
With many thanks to johnP-bedford for so much information on this line of the family Beatrice Lilian Turner, daughter of Emma E. Reed, who was the daughter of Edith Taylor (keeping their maiden names here for ease.
I will endeavour to check all the information and enter it into my Family Tree Maker tree that i'm using.
I will work backwards from the last post.
With so much information pouring in, i had to switch-off for a while to re-establish where i was.
With the greatest of thanks
Calpe
-
johnP-bedford tells us in italics.
I have placed my questions under his comments.
1851 census G H Turner age 3 in Henlow with maternal grand-parents Hare.
Are their names given by any chance?
1861 census with parents & siblings in Langford age 13
Parents being John Turner and Sarah Mare?
Are the sibling names given?
They then move to Middlesex.....
Any reason known why?
1881 census Gillespie Road, Highbury, Kezia Hardy age 48 widow & daughters Jane 24 & Hannah 20
Who is Kezia Hardy?
Apr 1882 Elizabeth Pope born 42 Foley Street
This a Census Return date? Elizabeth Pope would be who?
Sept 1884 Georgina Pope born 42 Foley Street
This is the Bed Archive entry date not her birth date?
Georgina's parents would be?
Dec 1884 Ernest Charles Hardy born Islington, son of Hannah Hardy
Who is this?
15 Apr 1887 Violet Hetty Hardy born Gillespie Road, Highbury, Islington, daughter of Hannah Hardy born, illegitimate – could GHT be the father ?
Who is this?
Why the suspicions 'could G.H.T. be the father'?
1890 GHT married Jane Hardy ??
Who is this? Why the query 'married Jane Hardy'?
So what happened to Jane Pope and their child Georgina Pope?
1891 census at 6 or 7 Little Titchfield Street, George Henry Turner age 43, born Langford, House Painter with wife Jane Turner age 34 born Bury St.Edmunds ,Tailoress ne Hardy
So G.H.Turner was married to Emma E. Reed. Legally separated about 1884?
Had an affair with a Jane Pope, but never married?
Then we see in 1891 census he was apparently married to a Jane Turner, nee Hardy, aged 34 in the 1891 census.
1891 census 16 Myrtle Road, Highbury, Kezia Hardy 58 widow, daughter Hannah age 30 & grand children Ernest age 6 & age Violet 3 both born Islington
Who are these people?
10 June 1891 Violet Mabel Ellen Turner born, mother Beatrice Lilian Turner, at 12 Chesterfield Street, father unknown
Might we ever find out?
Oct 1891 as per Beds Archives – Emma Ellen (Reed) Turner was married to GHT – but seperated from him 5/6 years ago – she married ?Alchin
As mentioned above 'Around 1884 G.H.Turner separated from wife Emma – as per Beds Archives'.
So she may have married a Mr. 'X' Alchin?
21 July 1896 Marylebone - Hetty Sarah Hare Turner born – mother Hardy, assume Jane, father G.H.T.
We know that from the Beds Archives that about 1884 G.H.T. separated from his wife Emma E. Reed.
This is quite interesting, as it presumed that G.H.T. was also the father of this Hetty Sarah Hare Turner? Is there a birth date? So the (birth?) record shows that the mother was Hardy (no first name, assumed Jane) and the father was defiantly G.H.T.?
The many other facts you have given John, i can't really question them until i'm clearer about the answers to my questions.
With many thanks
Calpe
-
From the Beds FHS Biggleswade baptism transcripts (1637-1852), for parents Samuel & Edith:
Baptisms - St Andrew, Biggleswade:
20 May 1832 - Mary Taylor REED; cow leach
26 Jan 1834 - Sarah REED; farrier
22 Nov 1835 - Mary Taylor REED; cow leach
09 Sep 1835 - Ann Taylor REED; cow leach
06 Jun 1841 - Samuel Taylor READ; farrier; privately
04 Jun 1843 - Samuel REED; farrier; born 31 Dec 1840
04 Jun 1843 - Thomas Taylor REED; farrier; born 02 Mar 1843
A late thanks for this.
So the parents of all these children are Samuel Reed (Read) and Edith Taylor?
Clearly Edith must have insisted on her surname being passed on.
I only have these names, and they don't match 100% with the ones above: -
Mary Taylor Reed born about 1836
Anne Taylor Reed " " " 1838
Samuel Taylor Reed " " " 1841
Eliz (add Taylor?) Ann Reed " 1847
Edith (add Taylor?) Reed " " 1851
Obviously Mary Taylor Reed and Samuel wouldn't have been Baptised twice.
-
On 1861 census in Langford, John & Sarah with George age 13, plus 6 other children.
These are all John Turner and Sarah Hare's children?
The four i have are:-
Elizabeth 1842, William 1840, Thomas 1846, George 1847
-
On 1861 census in Langford, John & Sarah with George age 13, plus 6 other children.
These are all John Turner and Sarah Hare's children?
The four i have are:-
Elizabeth 1842, William 1840, Thomas 1846, George 1847
The others are John 1854, Frank 1856, Anne 1858 & Laura 1860.
They also has son Charles 1864 as per the 1871 census.
Can you not access the 1861 & other censuses yourself to check out the family ?
Cheers John
-
From the Beds FHS Biggleswade baptism transcripts (1637-1852), for parents Samuel & Edith:
Baptisms - St Andrew, Biggleswade:
20 May 1832 - Mary Taylor REED; cow leach
26 Jan 1834 - Sarah REED; farrier
22 Nov 1835 - Mary Taylor REED; cow leach
09 Sep 1835 - Ann Taylor REED; cow leach
06 Jun 1841 - Samuel Taylor READ; farrier; privately
04 Jun 1843 - Samuel REED; farrier; born 31 Dec 1840
04 Jun 1843 - Thomas Taylor REED; farrier; born 02 Mar 1843
A late thanks for this.
So the parents of all these children are Samuel Reed (Read) and Edith Taylor?
Clearly Edith must have insisted on her surname being passed on.
I only have these names, and they don't match 100% with the ones above: -
Mary Taylor Reed born about 1836
Anne Taylor Reed " " " 1838
Samuel Taylor Reed " " " 1841
Eliz (add Taylor?) Ann Reed " 1847
Edith (add Taylor?) Reed " " 1851
Obviously Mary Taylor Reed and Samuel wouldn't have been Baptised twice.
I'm assuming that as Samuel was baptised first privately in June 1841 he was done again in June 1843 (as he was born Dec 1840) at a more formal ceremony with his brother Thomas.
The first Mary 1832 most likely died but at a point after sister Sarah was baptised 1834 otherwise she may have been named Mary. i cannot find a burial for her but there is a burial on 19 May 1835 of an unnamed REED aged 4, at Bigglewade as per the NBI, which could be her?, wonder if the parish registers say if this was a son or daughter of named parents.
-
1851 census G H Turner age 3 in Henlow with maternal grand-parents Hare.[/i]
Are their names given by any chance?
1851 census Henlow..
Head of household is Ann Hare age 62 widow, baker, with her are her children Ann age 36, Elizabeth 26, Charles 24, Francis 22, James 20 & Emma 18 plus the 2 year old visitor G H Turner.... assumed son of Sarah Turner nee Hare born 1819.
On 1841 census in Henlow is Ann Hare age 50 baker, & assumed children Thomas, Ann, Stephen, Elizabeth, Francis, James & Emma.
I haven't found any baptisms for these Hare children of widow Ann to confirm father's name, but it is Thomas according to marriage cert of Sarah Hare to John Turner in 1839, and a Stephen Turner is a witness to that marriage. Plus there's a burial at Langford of Thomas Hare on 22 Apr 1839 aged 56.
-
1881 census Gillespie Road, Highbury, Kezia Hardy age 48 widow & daughters Jane 24 & Hannah 20
Who is Kezia Hardy?
Dec 1884 Ernest Charles Hardy born Islington, son of Hannah Hardy
Who is this?
15 Apr 1887 Violet Hetty Hardy born Gillespie Road, Highbury, Islington, daughter of Hannah Hardy born, illegitimate
– could GHT be the father ?
Who is this? Why the suspicions 'could G.H.T. be the father'?
1890 GHT married Jane Hardy ??
Who is this? Why the query 'married Jane Hardy'?
1891 census 16 Myrtle Road, Highbury, Kezia Hardy 58 widow, daughter Hannah age 30 & grand children Ernest age 6 & age Violet 3 both born Islington
Who are these people?
Keziah Hardy is the widowed mother of Jane Hardy 1856 & Hannah Hardy 1860. Jane we assume was the wife of GHT as per the 1891 & 1901 census in Little Titchfield Street, although we've not found a marriage entry for them. Jane Turner died June 1908 aged 51. On 1911 census GHT is a widower but states he was married 21 years (so around 1890) with 1 child Hetty Sarah Hare born 1896. Here he is with Hannah Hardy as his housekeeper, she is his sister in law, so sister of his late wife Jane, & continues to live with him at the same address (although not sure if it was as 'man & wife') until they both die in 1936.
Note Thomas Hardy married Keziah Clarke in Bury St.Edmunds in March 1857. Their daughter Jane was born prior to that in Dec 1856. There are 3 baptisms in Bury St Edmunds on 7 Aug 1860 of daughters of Thomas & Keziah Hardy specifying each of their birth dates. These are Jane, Hannah & Eliza. I cannot find a relevant birth index for Jane Hardy but there is one for Jane Clarke in Dec 1856 in Bury St.Edmunds where mother's maiden name is Pearce. This, I believe, is surname of Keziah's mother Maria, before she married Joseph Clarke.
Ernest Charles Hardy born Dec 1884 and Violet Hetty Hardy born Apr 1887 are the illegitimate children of Hannah Hardy, both are with her & her mother Keziah on 1891 & 1901 censuses. There will be no father's name on the birth certificate but it is possible that GHT was the father - but we might never know. Only that Hannah's child's name has Hetty & GHT with wife Jane had a child named Hetty, just a hunch.
Enough for now.
-
Apr 1882 Elizabeth Pope born 42 Foley Street
This a Census Return date? Elizabeth Pope would be who?
Sept 1884 Georgina Pope born 42 Foley Street
This is the Bed Archive entry date not her birth date?
Georgina's parents would be?
So what happened to Jane Pope and their child Georgina Pope?
Had an affair with a Jane Pope, but never married (her) ?
The Beds Archives entry was dated Oct 1883 where Jane Pope of Holme, Biggleswade, had a child born 5 Apr 1882 & said that GHT of 42 Foley Street, Portland Place was the putative father, and he was charged to pay 5 shillings a week until age 14.
She was in fact Elizabeth Jane Pope born 1862 and this child was Elizabeth Pope, birth index June 1882 Marylebone. Her second child was Georgina Pope birth index Sep 1884 Marylebone (I am assuming that GHT is her father also). Both birth indexes have blank mothers maiden name thus they are illegitimate. The two girls were baptised at Biggleswade on 20 Dec 1888, one as Elizabeth Jane Turner Pope and the other as Georgina Turner Pope, they also had Turner in their names when they married.
Elizabeth Jane Pope age 27 married Thomas Dennis/Dennes at Biggleswade on 16 Dec 1889. On 1891 census they are in Biggleswade, within the family are Elizabeth Pope age 9 & Georgina Pope age 7, both step-daughters (of Thomas) and both born Foley Street, London. In later censuses they say they were born Battersea London.
So this Jane Pope isn't the Jane, wife of GHT - she was Jane Hardy
-
I have Emma Ellen Reeds Birth Cert, born 28/12/1852 registered 19/01/1853. Predictably no surprises.
Emma Reed's was registered unnamed, as were the three other youngest Samuel Reed - Edith nee Taylor children.
All born Biggleswade their GRO index corresponded closely Johns Bedford's established findings, with a little trawling turned up, thanks.
No specific residence given, just Biggleswade as registry district.
Discredits two unimportant details on her wedding cert, in reality deceased father was a farrier not the Veterinary Surgeon. I think this is accepted antway. She was in fact 16 not 17 Sept. 1869 on Wedding day.
Births reg in Reed name alone.
Caroline 1845 S Biggleswade Vol 06 Pg57 (died 1845 named)
Elizabeth 1847 M ‘’ ‘’ ‘’’ ‘’ Pg 68
Edith 1850 D ‘’ ‘’ ‘’ ‘’ Pg 51
Emma 1853 M ‘’ ‘’ Vol 03B Pg 338
Earlier birth's found . Ann 1837, Samuel 1841 ,Thomas 1843.
All reg with Taylor middle name. again all Biggleswade.
Mary 1832 & Sarah 1834 N/A @ GRO.
Probably missed someone.
Cheers
Information given here crown copyright property.
-
Just a brief mention that all the information that has been placed on this thread is greatly appreciated, sadly, other commitments have cropped up, but i'll be back, thank you kindly.