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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Calpe 1704 on Saturday 11 July 20 19:40 BST (UK)
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Probably best to now move on to the new persons in my Tree.
Henry C. Hamblin, husband to Beatrice Lilian Turner.
Henry was born in St.Pancras, approx. 1873.
I'm hoping to find more information about him and his parents.
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Was this his birth?
June qtr 1873
St Saviour Registration District vol 1d, page 119
Hamblin, Henry Thomas
(From FreeBMD)
HAMBLIN, HENRY THOMAS (Mother's Maiden Name:) CLARK
GRO Reference: 1873 J Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 119
(From GRO.gov.uk)
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Hi so he is the Henry Hamblin b c 1873 St Pancras with wife Beatrice and children on 1901 RG13/31/150/22
Keyboard86
PS have you not got their marriage certificate?
1911 says he was born in 1869?
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1891 Census
Harry Hamblin, boarder, single, age 23, Hackney Carriage Driver, born St Pancras
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Just so you have an idea what has already been found this is link to Calpe's previous thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=339253.306;topicseen
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Apologies for the rushed start to this new thread.
I'll post in next couple of days the information I hold on him.
Thanks
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Firstly, please allow for any name references, persons etc. i might forget to mention, it is not my intention. Just trying to get my head around so much information coming forward. With thanks in advance.
Information i have on Henry C. Hamblin is the following: -
1901 Census, Civil Parish of Kensington, address 167 Clarendon Rd, 3 rooms occupied.
Head of Family, age 28, occupation - Hackney Carriage driver, born London St. Pancras.
Also listed as his wife Beatrice (born Bedford, Luton), age 28 and 4 children.
In the 1911 Census: -
Henry Hamblin, age 42, married 20 years, Taxi Cab Driver, birthplace St Pancras, London.
Listed is his wife Beatrice (born Luton, Bedford) and 8 children, one had died, (no name).
In Ancestry UK 1911 Census, they give the address as 36 Clifton Gardens, Chiswick, London.
With thanks to Richard Parka, he has covered all of Henry C. Hamblin's children, so of course the interest here is in Henry's ancestors and general information.
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1891 Census
Harry Hamblin, boarder, single, age 23, Hackney Carriage Driver, born St Pancras
So is this him 1891?
Keyboard86
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Whilst in 1901 & 1911 Henry Hamblin has Beatrice (nee Turner) as wife we haven't found a marriage index for them. 1911 says they were married for 20 years which suggests it was in 1891. The first daughter listed Violet (Mary Ellen) Hamblin we've established was born on 18 June 1891 in Pancras to mother Beatrice Lilian Turner (no father on birth certificate) & the GRO index has mother's maiden name blank. There is no proof that Henry Hamblin is the father.
The next child Henry George birth index is in Mar 1896 Fulham RD born Hammersmith as per census. Henry & all subsequent children on the censuses plus those born after 1911 have mother's maiden name of Turner. They may not have married but if they did it would be between 1901 & 1906. Perhaps get the birth cert of Henry George to get more information.
The child who was dead as per 1911 census was Charles Cyril Hamblin born Sept 1902, mother's maiden name of Turner. & died aged 0 years in Mar 1903, both Kensington RD.
Henry Hamblin's occupation in 1911 Taxi cab driver & in 1901 Hackney carriage driver as is the occupation of Harry Hamblin found in 1891, so suggesting that they are same person.
Regards John
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1911 says they were married for 20 years which suggests it was in 1891.
It actually suggests a marriage in 1890 ;D
The question on the 1911 census asks how many COMPLETE years of marriage ;)
Not that it helps? Still can't find a marriage! ::)
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Just as markers, there is this birth reg:
Henry Hambling Pancras 1b 12 Sep 1870 Qtr
Also these three (one is Glos) all Sep 1867 Qtr:
Henry Charles Hamblin Westbury S. 6a 229
Henry Claude Hamblen West Ham 4a 26
Henry Hamblin St Martin 1a 415
One more:
Harry Charles Hamblin Reading 2c 370 Mar 1869 Qtr
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Thanks John. Its on order, 13/07/2020, last pdf birth cert. took 2 weeks to arrive.
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Thanks John. Its on order, 13/07/2020, last pdf birth cert. took 2 weeks to arrive.
Sorry, to Clarify properly : I ordered Harry Hamblin, 1874 Qtr. Mar. St Pancras. Vil 01B Pg 152 Birth Cert.
That middle name Cyril apears only once as far as I know, on my mothers marrige cert,
My remote hope is that it apears on the St Pancras "Harry" above too giving it weight. In the probable absence of Henry Cyril Hamblin- Beatrice Lilian Turner wedding cert ever existing.
Thanks the child Charles Cyril d. 0 find. He was born my uncle & sadly I never knew of this existance until recently. Noticably the Cyril middle apears documented again for the second time
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Just as markers, there is this birth reg:
Henry Hambling Pancras 1b 12 Sep 1870 Qtr
That Henry looks to have died soon after birth
Death Henry Hambling age 0 Pancras 1b 9 1870 Sep qtr
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Hi all, anyone found Beatrice Lilian possibly Turner before 1901, b c 1873 Luton, Bedfordshire?
Keyboard86
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I have ordered Henry C Hamblin's eldest son Henry George Hamblins Birth cert.
Thanks to johnP-bedford for the index ref.
Also rewinding to the former thread there's exelent condensed ref from Rosie99 #150
& BumbleB #150/1 regarding Henry C Hamblin's children: Pg.17 here.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=339253.144
Including my uncles Alfred William & George Albert Hamblin who both died young of TB, the latter in our home shortly after Alfred. Alfred sadly seems like the young man who never was.
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Hi all, anyone found Beatrice Lilian possibly Turner before 1901, b c 1873 Luton, Bedfordshire?
Keyboard86
I searched for Beatrice yesterday without success on Census - but there is an 1872, Sep Qtr birth registration.
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Hi all, anyone found Beatrice Lilian possibly Turner before 1901, b c 1873 Luton, Bedfordshire?
Keyboard86
I searched for Beatrice yesterday without success on Census - but there is an 1872, Sep Qtr birth registration.
I and others have been searching every which way for Beatrice 1881/91 on Calpe's old thread without luck so encouraging to see we haven't gone blind! The Sep 1872 Luton birth certificate has been ordered by Calpe but not yet arrived. Subsequent info also on the old thread seems to confirm it as the right cert anyway.
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On, the GRO Index the birth of Beatrice Lilian Turner had mmn REED, there is a marriage of George Henry Turner to possibly Emma Ellen Reed Biggleswade 1869
Keyboard86
PS has that already been identified on the other thread, it is so hard working in the dark on this?
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On, the GRO Index the birth of Beatrice Lilian Turner had mmn REED, there is a marriage of George Henry Turner to possibly Emma Ellen Reed Biggleswade 1869
Keyboard86
PS has that already been identified on the other thread, it is so hard working in the dark on this?
Keyboard - That has been established, this topic was opened to look into Harry Cyril Hamblin; there is another topic to look into Beatrice Lilian Turner, you have to keep an eye on both topics to keep up to date.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=834257.9
Cheers John
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;D John, that is the trouble ploughing through page after page on another thread is not my idea of fun, but will concentrate on elusive Henry C Hamblin b c 1873 or 1869 St Pancras, were the deaths of both him and Beatrice L found?
Keyboard86
Did George Henry Turner marry a Jane later?
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;D John, that is the trouble ploughing through page after page on another thread is not my idea of fun, but will concentrate on elusive Henry C Hamblin b c 1873 or 1869 St Pancras, were the deaths of both him and Beatrice L found?
Keyboard86
Did George Henry Turner marry a Jane later?
George Henry certainly lived with a Jane but I haven't found a marriage. Emma Ellen was still alive so maybe he didn't want to commit bigamy.
The trouble is the original Hamblin thread which Calpe started to look for Mary Clare nee Hamblin, exploded into other areas so there is a lot on there.
I don't know if deaths for Henry and Beatrice Hamblin have been found.
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One of my two surviving cousins both 85 asked me that exact same question today.
Henry, he thinks died in Hounslow. I do too. His last days were spent there. My best estimate 1948-49
Beatrice died shortly before, buried accordingly to my mother their youngest daughter in Southhall, best estimate 1946-7
Over the years I have physicly looked her grave in the grossly neglected burial sites, most recently 2 weeks back with my own daughter. In hope to find this age of death.
I did search with my mother when living too. I do wonder if they are buried together.
I contacted Ealing council who issue a standard letter responce sugesting I join ancestry. ie, go away.
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Likely death
Staines, Middlesex January 1944
Beatrice L Hamblin b abt 1873
There is a death in Wandsworth, 1948
Henry Hamlin Born abt 1873
I think I offered that for some reason on the other thread.
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Henry is alive in 1939, is he not?
With an alleged date of birth, that has not been mentioned here?
I promise that I am not claiming that the 1939 Register in any way resembles a census! ;D
Am in enough trouble with that tonight!
Electoral registers?
John
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Staines, Middlesex January 1944
Beatrice L Hamblin b abt 1873
There is a death in Wandsworth, 1948
Henry Hamlin Born abt 1873
I think I offered that for some reason on the other thread.
Which other thread?
Register of graves, Havelock Cemetery (or Havelock Norwood?)
Interred together there are
Beatrice Lillian Hamblin, buried 4 March 1944, age 71
Henry Hamblin, buried 15 May 1948, age 76
Grave 52, Section C (B)
Or something like that!
Image is on ancestry.
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Well done heywood :)
Back to 1939
Electoral Register
Hammersmith (South)
5 St Peters Grove
Henry Hamblin
Beatrice Hamblin (Senr.)
George Albert Hamblin
Beatrice Hamblin (Junr.)
Walter Hamblin
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Henry is alive in 1939, is he not?
With an alleged date of birth, that has not been mentioned here?
I promise that I am not claiming that the 1939 Register in any way resembles a census! ;D
Am in enough trouble with that tonight!
Electoral registers?
John
I am unqualified to comment technicly on this site. However I can perhaps add context & some direction within.
Henry & Beatrice remained in their long term home 5, St Peters Grove W.6. 100% up to 1938.
then lived in our home 12 Fielding Rd Chiswick W.4 for their last few years, my brothers & sisters were infants, (basicly the WW2 years), Bearice had a completly debilatating stroke & died about a year later. Following her death Henry developed progressive dimenitia dangerous liability & just prior to his death required to be removed from our home with infants, while son George Hamblin living with "us" too at time was dying of TB, he passed about 1943/4, It's thought having contracted it caring for his younger brother Fredrick Hamblin who died about 2 years before. The brother Harry & wife Sophie nee Street died around late 40"s -1950.
The text on image attached is behind the curve now & a rough guide.
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Staines, Middlesex January 1944
Beatrice L Hamblin b abt 1873
There is a death in Wandsworth, 1948
Henry Hamlin Born abt 1873
I think I offered that for some reason on the other thread.
Which other thread?
Register of graves, Havelock Cemetery (or Havelock Norwood?)
Interred together there are
Beatrice Lillian Hamblin, buried 4 March 1944, age 71
Henry Hamblin, buried 15 May 1948, age 76
Grave 52, Section C (B)
Or something like that!
Image is on ancestry.
Oh Yesssss, thats it, thank you everyone that is our Beatrice & Henry, absolutly amazing.
Norwood is not S London one, this is Norwood Green on fringes of Southhall. Havelock is an area on the grand Union canal. I have been cycling straight past on the tow path to get to central Southhall . ::)
Norwood GREEN rings a dull bell now, their eldest son Henry jnr."Harry" Hamblin & wife Sophie nee Street possibly live there around the time of Beatrice's death, they were active in her shared care at the end.
I suspected they are a possible association as neither Beartice or Henry Snr had any historical links with Southall at all & being buried there struck me as very odd.
"Harry" & Sophie died a few years later they could well buried there too.
As an aside Henry jnr "Harry" a WW1 vet, was definatly a cab driver during WW2.
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Found newspaper clipping on Henry Hamblin from Middlesex Courier 8th Dec 1945
"On the evening of Friday week, Mr Henry Hamblin aged 74 of 12 Fielding Road, Chiswick collapsed in Staines Road, Hounslow and was removed to Hounslow Hospital by ambulance. After rest and treatment he recovered and was handed to the care of his son who resides in the borough"
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100% was my uncle Harold Hamblin, a cab driver, in folklore too. Their long term was central/W Hounslow I be able to narrow this down. I am pretty sure he never actualy resided in their home. Place of death could be a quazi secure unit.
With latest knowlege gained, Ist oppotunity I'll, attempt to find /aquire Henry & Beatrice's death cert asap.
As always,-Thank you .
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That's great to have their burials. Well done jonw65
Jan
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So with his age 76 at burial in May 1948 although GRO death index has age 75, plus him being age 74 in the newspaper report of Dec 1945, plus his birth date on 1939 register being 1 June 1872 (if it is right that is?) this all tallies with his age being 28 of 1901 census - therefore it is wrongly stated as 42 on 1911 census. So is the Harry Hamlin age 23 found on 1891 census him ?
So we still cannot find his birth index in 1871 (+/- 1 yr) perhaps or find him on 1881 census
Cheers John
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'll leave this here for more qualified eyes.
More or less arrived as GRO predicted post. ETA.
This is posted to his lifelong partner Beatrice Lilian Turner's concurrent thread too.
Entry of Marriage Certificate: George Henry Turner - Emma Ellen Reed
No. 132
when Married.:
When married 02/10/1869.
Name & Surename: George Henry Turner - Emma Ellen Reed
Age. George Henry turner 22. bachelor
Emma Ellen Reed 17 yrs, spinster.
Rank of profession: George Henry, Baker. Emma Ellen [-----]
Residence Time of marriage : G H Turner & E. E Reed. Both Biggleswade.
Father's name surname: John Turner......Profession, Blacksmith master.
Father's name surname: Samuel Reed....Profession: Veterinary Surgeon (Deceased)
Again thank you for your kind attention. I am not qualified to comment with this content.
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Likely death
Staines, Middlesex January 1944
Beatrice L Hamblin b abt 1873
There is a death in Wandsworth, 1948
Henry Hamlin Born abt 1873
I think I offered that for some reason on the other thread.
#Metoo.
These are on order now in pdf form. I should know any actors apearing on them on sight.
They seem a good fit now. Pretty sure heward presented these in prehistory within the previous thread.
My usual disclaimer, I am a complete novice here. I will post this to long term partner Beatrice Lillian Turner's thread so we are all on the same page.
Thanks for your kind attention RP
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Staines, Middlesex January 1944
Beatrice L Hamblin b abt 1873
There is a death in Wandsworth, 1948
Henry Hamlin Born abt 1873
I think I offered that for some reason on the other thread.
Which other thread?
Register of graves, Havelock Cemetery (or Havelock Norwood?)
Interred together there are
Beatrice Lillian Hamblin, buried 4 March 1944, age 71
Henry Hamblin, buried 15 May 1948, age 76
Grave 52, Section C (B)
Or something like that!
Image is on ancestry.
Located Beatrice Lilian Turner & lifetime partner Henry Cyril Hamblin’s long lost grave today. Pegged the precise location, surprisingly easily considering the vast majority are lost to subsidence, some luck was involved here, thanks to jonw65
Small world, I have visited & taken food in that very Sikh temple that overshadows them. A discreet weathered marker will be added.
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I am so pleased that you found the grave.
Yes, thanks to Jonw65.
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Wonderful news!
Well done for finding it. Perhaps it will now bring you some luck in locating Henry's origins.
John
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Oh wow, that is good news :D
Jan
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I ordered Harry Hamblin, 1874 Qtr. Mar. St Pancras. Vol 01B Pg 152 Birth Cert.
That middle name Cyril apears only once as far as I know, on my mothers marrige cert. My remote hope was that it apears on the St Pancras "Harry" Hamblin.
In the probable absence of Henry Cyril Hamblin- Beatrice Lilian Turner wedding cert ever existing.
Certainly worth a stab if only to eliminate,
Still awaiting my uncle "Harry" Henry George Hamblins pdf birth cert. eldest son of Henry & Beatrice.
I am not qualified to comment on content below. Thanks for interest.
Superintendent Registrar’s District: St Pancras
Reg district : Kentish Town.
1874 BIRTHS District of : Kentish Town, County: Middlesex
When where born: 16/12/1873 - 3, Ingestre Rd, Name: Harry,Sex: BOY
Name father: Henry William Hamblin
Name/ MN Mother Elizabeth Hamblin, Formerly Stenhouse. Prof. Father Baker
Informant H W Hamblin, fafther 3, Ingestre Rd, Brecknock Rd. (Both rd's Check out)
Registered 27/01/1874 Signed off by reg- Bapt: Blank.
All information crown copyright property.
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The parents ... Henry William Hamblin married Elizabeth Stenhouse at St.George Hanover Square in Dec 1865. On 1871 census they were living at 5or7 Little George street, Chelsea with 3 children, he was age 27 a Baker. On 1881 census they are at 6 Spencer Road St.Pancras with 4 children (1 from 1871 & 3 more including Harry age 7, one from 1871 is Henry George born 1870 & not with them in 1881, so assumed died). Henry William is age 36 born Newbury, Berks 7 a Railway Signalman. Ancestry has Railway Employment record for him, he started at St.Pancras in 1875 age 32 as a pointsman. Baptism records for 5 of the children show him as a pointsman, their address 6 Fleet Mews, 4 were done at St.Saviours Middx on 15 Apr 1878, showing birth dates, Harry is born on 16 Dec 1873 which matches your birth certificate.
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After following excellent guidance of jonw65 in locating Beatrice L Turner & Henry Hamblin's grave. I followed it up with Ealing Council, found a really helpful officer. The graves owner, surprised me, Walter "Wally" Hamblin, 12A The Broadway (Officer presumed Southall best bet as prox. Havelock Burial grnd very close.
(Ealing broadway nearby but always a major retail complex).
Suprise being, "Wally" was Henry & Bearices charming black sheep by any measure. In 1944 (assumed graves purchase date) he'd not long done time in the notorious Glasshouse military prison after going AWOL.
I suspect he would have always have avoided any voluntary contact with authority. Any press though will be colourful :o.
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Beatrice Lilian Turner - Henry Cyril Hamblin’s eldest sons birth cert. arrived.
Henry George Hamblin.
Superintendent Registrar's District: Fulham,
1896 BIRTHS Sub District of : St Paul Hammersmith. Co: London.
When where born: 5th Jan 1896 Abdale Rd
Name: Henry George Sex: Boy
Name/Sur father: Henry Hamblin
Name/ MN Mother: Beatrice Lilian Hamblin, formerly Turner
Prof. Father: Cab driver.
Sig./Des/Res.Infor: B L Hamblin, mother. 50, Abdale Rd, Shepherds Bush.
Registered: 12 Feb 1896
Signed off by reg- Bapt: Blank.
I will post this to the parallel thread of lifetime partner Beatrice Lilian Turner too.
I am unqualified to give responces of a knowlegable research nature.
All information supplied copyright crown property.
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Both death certs arrived for Beatrice & Henry, correct ID. I'll post both threads,as they lean on each other. Thank you again heywood for great work.
HENRY
Reg Dist. WANDSWORTH, 1948 DEATHS sub dist. of Tooting, WANDSWORTH
Where & when: 11 May 1948, Tooting Bec Hospital.
Name: Henry Hamblin. - Male 75yrs.
Rank/Prof: of 50, Stains Rd. Hounslow Middx. TAXI CAB DRIVER.
Cause Cardio: Informant. H. Hamblin. Son. 25 Springwell Road Heston Middx. Reg date: 30 May 1948.
BEATRICE
Reg Dist. STAINS, 1944 DEATHS sub dept. STAINS, MIDDLESEX
Where & when 27 Feb 1948, “Thesrall”, London Rd, Stanwell, Stains , Middx. (attach handwritten)
Name: Beatrice Lilian Hamblin. - Female 71yrs.
Rank/Prof: of, 12, Fielding Rd, Chiswick W.4. wife of TAXI CAB DRIVER.Cause Stroke.
Informant: W. (Walter “Wally" Hamblin) in atten, Son. 50, Stains Rd, Houslow.
Reg date: 29 Feb 1944. Signed off:-
(12, Fielding rd was my childhood home. They lived with “us” around WW2 years, I being their youngest Grandson born much later..
I hope to identify Henry’s; H ? Hamblin informant, (3 brothers had H initial),
Plus, in who’s Home Beatrice died. Eldest son Henry G Hamblin is my best bet for both. I need to hear back from 2 cousins before commenting further.
Thank you all again.
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Sorry ::)I will sort out res on any further images to 72dpi.
All infomation is crown copyright property
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London Road has the Staines Emergency Hospital in it in 1945.
But I'm not sure what the address says......The Hall maybe?
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As per London Electoral Rolls available on Ancestry....
At 25 Springwell Road, Heston & Isleworth in 1948 & 1949 is Horace Hamblin & Helen E Hamblin plus a Edith E Hayden. In 1946 they were at 75 Staines Road.
In 1948, 1951 & 1952 at 50 Staines Road is Walter Hamblin
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The Hall, London Road, Stanwell was a hospital; there's a no.of newspaper report of patients dying there in 1940 through to 1946. In earlier years it was probably the Workhouse
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I have ordered two death certificates, what I hope to be Henry & Beatrice sons George & Alfred Hamblin, they died at an early age of TB . I am more confident of one Alfred. Due to reg in Uxbridge. The huge Harefield Sanatorium was there. I should have them in next few days.
Those two & their eldest son Henry George Hamblin who remains elusive should be identifiable to me with sight of their death certs.
I was able to dismiss one plausible, Henry George Hamblin death reg 1945 . Brentford. 03A pg 443.
I have now got what I believe to be Henry George Hamblin & his wife Sophie’s last, or at least a long term address, in Sunbury then Middlesex . Henry purchased a bungalow from his brother Horace in the early 1940’s.
357 Upper Halliford Road Sunbury - any insight gratefully accepted, thanks ?
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Henry Cyril Hamblin's 6th Son.
George Albert Hamblin Death Cert. Brentford sub dist. Isleworth Middx.
When where: 11/01/1977. Hounslow Hospital. Name: George Hamblin. Male. age 44yrs.
Rank Prof: 194, Waverley Rd. Twickenham. - U.D., Radio & Cycle dealer.
Cause: T.B. Sig. Res. of informant: H. Hamblin Brother 175 Stains Rd. Hounslow. Reg 13/01/1947. Signed off.
Informant was brother Horace, confirmed by his son who lived at that address.
Final leading up to his death George resided at 12, Fielding Rd Chiswick W.4.
U.D I assume then would have been huge United Dairies H.Q on the A316 near this Twickenham address, & Milkman, as were 3 of the other brothers employed sporadically as fallback to various independent enterprises.
All information Crown & copyright property .
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Hello Richmond
U D may be Urban District if it follows the word Twickenham
Also it may be Waverley Avenue rather than Road ?
There is a probate record for him on Ancestry in 1951 as follows :-
George Hamblin of 194 Waverley Avenue Twickenham Middx who died 11 Jan 1947 at The Hospital Hounslow. Administration London 23 Feb (1951) to Ellen Smith, married woman, Effects £600
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Alfred William Hamblin 1908-1942 7th son of Henry Cyril Hamblin.
Death Cert: Reg.Dist: Uxbridge. Sub dist: Hayes. Middx.
Where when: 13/06/1942. 12A The Broadway Norwood Southall.
Name : Alfred William Hamblin. M. Age: 34. Rank, Prof: Dairy Foreman.
Cause Death: TB. Wife J. Hamblin, 12A The Broadway, Southall. Reg: 30/06/1942. Signed off-
I had assumed Uxbridge reg., he would have died in Harefield Sanatorium, this was not so.
F/F to 1948 this 12A Broadway was the reg ownership address of Henry & Beatrice’s Hamblins joint grave. Owners name: W. Hamblin could only be their 8th son Walter, Alfreds next youngest brother.
What intrigues me.
I am reasonably confident Walters long term partner until his death was “Joy” .
Am I joining up too many dots here? To consider Alfreds informant wife, J. Hamblin & Walters “Joy,” could be one & the same person.?????
The only Alfred legend I’ve heard to date , "he passed TB to elder brother George" (above post). An appalling solo epitaph of an early death by any measure. Triggering me in my quest to find out about my mothers family.
(Please be aware, I had no idea of my Uncle Alfreds existence until 4 months ago)
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Hello Richmond
U D may be Urban District if it follows the word Twickenham
Also it may be Waverley Avenue rather than Road ?
There is a probate record for him on Ancestry in 1951 as follows :-
George Hamblin of 194 Waverley Avenue Twickenham Middx who died 11 Jan 1947 at The Hospital Hounslow. Administration London 23 Feb (1951) to Ellen Smith, married woman, Effects £600
Thanks John, for correction on both counts.
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Alfred's wife was Josephine... On the 1939 Register living at 130 Lady Margarets Road, Southall, Middx is Alfred W Hamblin born 12 Dec 1907 Inspector at Express Dairies & his wife Josephine born 23 Sep 1907 a Ledger Clerk at Express Dairies.... her name Hamblin has been crossed out & above it is Robinson. This suggests to me that she remarried after Alfred's death in 1942, Sure enough there is a marriage index in Uxbridge RD in June 1944 of Josephine Hamblin to John R Robinson.
Previously she may have been Josephine Nuckley as she married Alfred W Hamblin in Hammersmith RD in Dec 1933
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Excellent John thank you, real progress here for me, helpfully kicks my Walters Hamblin's "Joy" theory into touch.
My sister just mailed me responding to, who was this Alfreds widow J Hamblin?
A dim memory of a Josephine she could not place, this would have been some years after Alfreds death, she was accompanied by her partner. I cannot think of any other candidates. I received her mail pror to your post actualy naming them.
Your earlier post re. George Hamblin's probate & his benefactor of £600 so hepful, jogged a memory, Ellen Smith was apparently George Hamblin's sister Henry & Beatrice's third daughter.
I simply knew her as "Aunt Bubbles". A person who never settled down, having 1 son Max at a very early age in tow for life & Ellen Smith, had no known later long term partner. "Married" I venture may be debatable, probably Max's father. Anything about her will be way too muddy to persue. She was working in Australia for a while. She would appear & dissapear.
I located what I firmly believe to be her birth index. GRO.
1912. Hamblin. Ellen. Turner. M Qtr Fulham vol 01 A Pg 457.
Thank you again, this finally puts a surname to her adult life that has eluded my hearing for 60 odd years. I will try to find her death date, that event is very sketchy, best guess late 1990's. She died after a long term stay in a secure unit.
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Help please, Henry's second youngest child Walter b1914, I don't quite know how to interpret apply precisely GRO for his death cert from BMD image attached.
My Best: Hamblin Walter Qtr. Mar Surrey N Vol 17 Page 413. ???????
Convoluted mail only option, any silly error will start a saga. Sorry but I am still in Janet & John territory here.
Thanks
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Help please, Henry's second youngest child Walter b1914, I don't quite know how to interpret apply precisely GRO for his death cert from BMD image attached.
My Best: Hamblin Walter Qtr. Mar Surrey N Vol 17 Page 413. ???????
Convoluted mail only option, any silly error will start a saga. Sorry but I am still in Janet & John territory here.
Thanks
Well for a start it is Male, 2nd qtr 1978, born 17th March 1914 Death registered Surrey Northern
Vol 17 page 413
Keyboard86
PS 2nd qtr is April/May/June?
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Have you got the birth cert of Walter Hamblin born June qtr 1914 Fulham RD to confirm birth date?
Do you know if Walter married ?? & if so to whom & when
Regards John
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Thanks for helpful heads up, no I have not, going by a plausible BMD index.
I'll check out properly.
Walter did not marry, or have known children, to my best memory his long term partner up to his death was "Joy". My dad & his elder brothers Horace & Harold definatly sorted his funeral.
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The parents ... Henry William Hamblin married Elizabeth Stenhouse at St.George Hanover Square in Dec 1865. On 1871 census they were living at 5or7 Little George street, Chelsea with 3 children, he was age 27 a Baker. On 1881 census they are at 6 Spencer Road St.Pancras with 4 children (1 from 1871 & 3 more including Harry age 7, one from 1871 is Henry George born 1870 & not with them in 1881, so assumed died). Henry William is age 36 born Newbury, Berks 7 a Railway Signalman. Ancestry has Railway Employment record for him, he started at St.Pancras in 1875 age 32 as a pointsman. Baptism records for 5 of the children show him as a pointsman, their address 6 Fleet Mews, 4 were done at St.Saviours Middx on 15 Apr 1878, showing birth dates, Harry is born on 16 Dec 1873 which matches your birth certificate.
n slim hope that Harry Hamblin appeared on either parents death cert if only to eliminate. I applied for their death certs. Unsurprisingly not so.
Allot of if's, but in absence of all else. It won't hurt to leave the details gained here.
Henry William Hamblin was informant on his wife Elizabeth Hamblin nee Stenhouse death cert who died of typhoid at their address: 1, Salisbury Road Islington 03/01/ 1889 aged 45. Death Reg 05/01/1889
Henry William Hamblin retired railway signalman died yrs later on 11/01/ 1927 Edmonton. 70, Clinton Rd Tottenham. aged 83. informant Emily Osbourne possibly his youngest born, Emily Maude Hamblin b. St Pancras 1882.
13/01/1927 an Emily Osbourne of 28, Somerset Rd. Tottenham was informant.
Along the way I picked up following details.
For record: Hamblin - Stenhouse offsprings birth deaths found at GRO, I'll spare you the children's full index's
1866 b.Maria Alice B. Chelsea,
1968 b. Albert Chelsea,
1870 b. Harry George -died Chelsea June qtr 1873 ,
1872 b. Lizzie -died Chelsea 1872,
1874 b. (Dec 1873) Harry Hamblin St Pancras ,
1876 b. Ellen St Pancras.
1882 b. Emily Maude. St Pancras.
There was an Elizabeth Stenhouse born in 1843. M qtr St George Hanover Sq Vol 01 pg 24 Mothers mn Wigan.
(District where Hamblin - Stenhouse wedding took place 1865)
There was a Henry (No William) Hamblin born in 1843 Newbury Sept qtr. Newbury Vol 06 Pg 209 Mothers mn Ballard.
Agrees more or less with his Jan 1927 death cert & his other Newbury 1843 given DOB’s.
Thanks for continued interest.
All Information given crown copyright property.
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I have received Henry's son Leonard Hamblins birth cert. 16/06/1899. 9, Hopgood St, Shepherds Bush.
Just looked into his WW1 service, his pay going to his mother calculates he signed up at 15 & died in France 29/09/1916.
Gained in absence of service record, by posting a thread on WW1 corner on this constructive site.
-
There was one last child born to the Hamblin -Stenhouse family.
1886 Ernest . Islington. M 01B pg 219
Although negative, there is an object to this.
To disprove possible link between Harry Hamblin born 1873 St Pancras & H.H Cabbie St Pancras 1891 census once & for all.
Finding 1873 Harry approx 18 still with his father in 1891 would certainly do this.
These Harry's probably one person was first suggested 10 + years back & remains plausible.
Chances of a marriage between Henry & Beatrice was always vanishingly small.
Circumstantial past seems as good as it gets for Grandad Henry? Hamblin, he spent his last six years in our home never uttering a word of his past. As in the rest of his life. As did his wife Beatrice.
I'll put final findings together next re. 1891 census.
-
Harry Hamblin’s mother Elizabeth nee Stenhouse died in 1889, father Henry Willian Hamblin soon married again, typically as Harry William Hamblin in 1890 to an Emma Glindon Islington. M 1b 426
1891 census he is found Harry Hamblin railway signalman.
His age 40 is wrong, but everything else tallies.
With second wife Emma 36 the three youngest children still with them , Agnes 12 , Emily 9, Ernest 4, living at Tavistock terrace Islington.
All of the older Children now absent.
1891 Harry Hamblin Born Dec 1873 has left home too.
A big thankyou is owed to CaroleW for intuitive guidance in this 1891 look up.
This ask was the Gulp! moment for me.
And thanks to everyone for their interest getting this far.
-
On 1901 census living as a boarder at 43 St.George's Avenue, Islington we have Harry Hamblin, widower, age 56 Signalman Midland Railway.
His wife Emma Hamblin has death index in Islington RD in Sept 1896 age 38, and a burial at Islington on 27 July 1896.
Also I've found another, not yet mentioned Hamblin/Stenhouse birth in Hampstead RD in Sept 1880 of a son Arthur Stephen, who has a death index in the same RD/quarter aged 0
Not found Harry Hamblin in 1911 census as yet
Cheers John
-
Exellent thanks John, I neglected mentioning another Hamblin-Stenhouse birth.
1878 Agness Mary, Hampstead S 01A pg 650.
-
There is a Henry Willam Hamblin on electoral roll at Carleton Rd Islington 1908 -1921 so should be there in 1911 but haven't yet found him.
-
I was just looking at that Janan, wasn't he listed as being at The Stables to the rear of 47 Carleton Road. I have found that address on 1911 census & as you say he's not there, but the other names on Electoral Roll are on the census.
-
He must have been out!
Just found this, not sure if it has already been posted
Hamblin Henry William 70 Clinton Road Harringay Middlesex died 11 January 1927 Probate London 1 March to Emily Osbourne widow. Effects £137 16s 1d
-
This is not adding much.
I have a copy of the father Henry William Hamblin's Will, dated 26 October 1926 probate 1st Mar 1927, he left his entire Estate £137 to exeutar Emily Osbourne 28 Somerset Rd Tottenham.
His address on Will is 70 Clinton Rd Harringay Middx. Retired Railway servant.
Possibly daughter Emily Maude born 1882 St Pancras? She is informant, they are both found living at same address's on his death cert.
His death cert 1927 placed 70, Clinton Rd in Tottenham. not Harringay as stated in the will.
He is named Henry William Hamblin in both, Harry now dropped.
-
Has this person ever been mentioned? :-\
I do not think him particularly likely, perhaps a little young (especially re age of Harry the hackney carriage driver in 1891 and age of Henry on the last census).
But having tried to find out a bit about who he was, I'll post it anyway, if we are also trying to eliminate people in the hope that we might be left with somebody who could be our Henry!
A birth in Pancras
Sep 1872 1b 61
Beale, Henry Hamblen
mother's maiden surname —
Appears to be illegitimate. Indexed as Henry Kamblen Beale on the new GRO index.
I failed to find any baptism for him.
There was another one a couple of years later, she was indexed twice by the GRO
June 1874 Pancras 1b 60
Beale, Maria Hamblen
Hamblen, Maria Hamblen
So perhaps illegitimate again, with father named? They changed the rules about that around then. Anyway, if so, we know from experience on Rootschat that the new GRO index will only have one indexing, under the father's name
June 1874 Pancras 1b 60
Hamblen, Maria Hamblen
mother's maiden surname Beale
Though I am surprised to see a mother's maiden name given.
Sadly young Maria seems to have died in Holborn district the following year.
Then there is a marriage at St Saviour, St Pancras (on ancestry)
21 April 1877
Samuel Henry Collins, 28, bachelor, Coachman
+
Maria Hamblen, 27, spinster, father William Beale, Coachman
And they are living in St George Martyr, Holborn, in 1881
Samuel Collins a Coachman, born Clerkenwell, and Maria, 31, and four children, all born Bloomsbury.
Include son Henry, 8, and there is also her mother Elmira Beale with them
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q279-1RTD
Second page
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q279-15ZF
Could 8 year old Henry Collins be Henry Hamblen Beale?
There is also a 6 year old daughter Elizabeth, not sure of her birth, and she might spoil things a bit re Maria Hamblen Beale b 1874.
1891 they are in Holborn
piece 219 folio 99 page 12
Can't find them on FamilySearch
Samuel Collins is 43, a parcel post driver, Maria is 42
There are four children. No Henry with them, they have a son Alfred born since the last census.
If alive, Henry may of course be anywhere, and if under the Collins name he might be hard to find in the census.
-
To me looks like a classic. He ran away to sea.
ADM 188/205/145174
Description:
Name Hamblin, Harry
Official Number: 145174
Place of Birth: Saint Pancras, Middlesex
Date of Birth: 16 December 1872
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6670947
His service record signed up 16 Dec. 12yrs in 1891. pensioned in 1912.
Rejoined senior service for WW1, finally demob. 1919.
Looks like he signed up on his 17th Birthday & fibbed about his age.
Details from Harry's birth cert. Fire up the shredder.
1874 BIRTHS District of : Kentish Town, County: Middlesex
When where born: 16/12/1873 - 3, Ingestre Rd, Name: Harry,Sex: BOY
Name father: Henry William Hamblin
Name/ MN Mother Elizabeth Hamblin, Formerly Stenhouse. Prof. Father Baker
Note: NA downloads are free in fair usage due to Covid.
The WW1 diaries are the definite jewel there.
-
Trying to scavenge a positive takeaway.
The 1891 Harry boarder being 23 works with my Grandfathers known
personal profile as a lifelong cab driver, from St Pancras, he had a horse ("Hack") in my mothers childhood. 23 works mainly due to the notoriously difficult Knowledge introduced in 1865, takes 3 to 4 years to pass. I think the record to date is a 19yr old.
Any 18 yr old would most likely be a student of The Knowledge even given the short secondary education .
-
Seems a good time summarise what's been gathered confirmed re.
the very difficult Hamblin family. having been fortunate enough to stumble
across Calpe's thread only months ago not even knowing my Grandparents first names.
Beatrice Lilian Turner, 1872 Luton D Hamblin. Staines 1944
Henry Hamblin, ???? St Pancras D Wandsworth 1948
(Cyril middle name appears his nonsense)
Hamblin’s 12 Children.
Violet Mabel Ellen Turner, Pancras 1891 - D. Clare. Hammersmith 1963.
Henry George, Fulham 1896 - D. (GRO Typo Herny) Surrey Northern 1966.
Horace, Fulham, 1897 - D. Kingston upon Thames 1991.
Leonard, Fulham, (GRO Typo Lionard) 1899 - D. MOD France 1916.
Harold, Kensington. . 1901 - D. Bodmin 1966.
Charles Cyril, Kensington, 1902 - D. Kensington 1903.
George Albert Kensington, 1904 - D Brentford 1947.
Alfred William Kensington, 1908 - D. Uxbridge 1942.
Beatrice,Kensington, 1910 - D. Osborne. Bridge 1958.
Ellen, Fulham 1912 - ………… D. Smith. Ealing 1995.
Walter, Hammersmith, 1914 - D. Surrey Northern 1978.
Norah, Hammersmith, 1916 - D. Crowther. Ealing 1987
I am not experienced enough to judge, I came across the attached index fillet.
What are the chances in the event of non violent death of 2 elderly brothers Henry George & Harold entered next to each other in 1966 death index. These are all checked out.
Many thanks
All information is crown copyright property.
-
To me looks like a classic. He ran away to sea.
ADM 188/205/145174
Description:
Name Hamblin, Harry
Official Number: 145174
Place of Birth: Saint Pancras, Middlesex
Date of Birth: 16 December 1872
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6670947
His service record signed up 16 Dec. 12yrs in 1891. pensioned in 1912.
Rejoined senior service for WW1, finally demob. 1919.
Looks like he signed up on his 17th Birthday & fibbed about his age.
Details from Harry's birth cert. Fire up the shredder.
1874 BIRTHS District of : Kentish Town, County: Middlesex
When where born: 16/12/1873 - 3, Ingestre Rd, Name: Harry,Sex: BOY
Name father: Henry William Hamblin
Name/ MN Mother Elizabeth Hamblin, Formerly Stenhouse. Prof. Father Baker
Note: NA downloads are free in fair usage due to Covid.
The WW1 diaries are the definite jewel there.
So it seems that this Harry Hamblin, son of Henry & Elizabeth isn't the one who 'married' Beatrice Turner & is found on 1901 & 1911 census.
On 1939 Register there is a Harry Hamblin/Hamblyn date of birth 16 Dec 1872 single, OAP living at 20 Mountview Trerrace, Port Talbot.... & died Dec 1959 age 86 in Glamorgan RD.
-
Just a brief mention that all the information that has been placed on this thread is greatly appreciated, sadly, other commitments have cropped up, but i'll be back, thank you kindly.
-
I have a copy of the father Henry William Hamblin's Will, dated 26 October 1926 probate 1st Mar 1927, he left his entire Estate £137 to exeutar Emily Osbourne 28 Somerset Rd Tottenham.
His address on Will is 70 Clinton Rd Harringay Middx. Retired Railway servant.
Possibly daughter Emily Maude born 1882 St Pancras? She is informant, they are both found living at same address's on his death cert.
Thought I'd tidy up this loose end although we now know this may not be the Henry/Harry Hamblin father of the HH who "married" Beatrice Turner....
About executor & informant Emily Osbourne, she is not daughter Emily Maude...
At 28 Somerset Road Tottenham as per the London Electoral Rolls from 1928 onwards is Emily May Osborne along with Frederick William Osborn, initially I though it was her husband but she was a widow on the Probate entry, so deduced it may be her son. The next year 1929 we also get Winifred May Osborn, deduced this to be her daughter just reached age 21 perhaps. Looking at birth indexes found these children, Frederick Mar 1901 & Winifred June 1903, in Islington RD. From the GRO the mother's maiden name was Wattam. Found marriage index in west Ham RD in June 1893 of Frederick Robert Osborne to Emily May Wattam and also other Osborne/Wattam children. Frederick died 9 Apr 1918 age 47, his probate says address was Sudeley Stables, Dalmeney Road, Tuffnell Park, proceeds to widow Emily Osborne. .
-
Hello again, i thought i'd give this thread & posts another shot to try and attempt to dig a bit deeper hoping to find a bit more information with the help of all of you.
Firstly and mainly about Henry.
We know that his wife was Beatrice Lilian Turner.
I would prefer to keep future posts only about Henry C. Hamblin.
It doesn't matter how long the tunnel may be, just hope to see a clear light at the end.
Thank you.
-
Has this person ever been mentioned? :-\
Have you thought about/investigated anything in Reply #69?
-
A birth in Pancras
Sep 1872 1b 61
Beale, Henry Hamblen
mother's maiden surname —
For what it's worth Henry's d-o-b in the 1939 Register was 1 June 1872
Age 75 on death in June qtr 1948
Age 76 on burial, 15 May 1948
Free index to 1921 census says
Henry Hamblin, born 1869, London, London
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There was another one a couple of years later, indexed twice by the GRO
June 1874 Pancras 1b 60
Beale, Maria Hamblen
Hamblen, Maria Hamblen
So perhaps illegitimate again, with father named?
new GRO index will only have one indexing, under the father's name
June 1874 Pancras 1b 60
Hamblen, Maria Hamblen
mother's maiden surname Beale
There might have been an earlier one?
Birth indexed twice on old GRO index
March 1869 Holborn 1b 596
Beale, Henry Hambler
Hambler, Henry Hambler
New GRO birth index, just the once
HAMBLER, HENRY HAMBLER
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1869 M Quarter in OF HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 596
Death under Beale
Sep 1869 Holborn 1b 407
Beale, Henry Hambler
Age 0
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Apologies, I didn't expected such a rapid reply.
I must be honest & say that I need to check all the posts to clarify what's what.
Greatly appreciated.
-
jonw65, thank you kindly for your replies.
Have you thought about/investigated anything in Reply #69?
[/quote]
I must apologies to all the readers for having jumped the gun.
I must satisfy myself that no bones have left unturned.
As i have mentioned i will check all the posts in this thread 'Henry C. Hamblin' and then raise any points.
-
Was this his birth?
June qtr 1873
St Saviour Registration District vol 1d, page 119
Hamblin, Henry Thomas
(From FreeBMD)
HAMBLIN, HENRY THOMAS (Mother's Maiden Name:) CLARK
GRO Reference: 1873 J Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 119
(From GRO.gov.uk)
03-07-2023
I don't think this is the same person.
I have his name as Henry Cyril Hamblin.
Born about 1873, St. Pancras, London
Deceased 11 May 1948.
1901 Census, his age was 28, est. birth 1873, London Hackney Carriage Driver.
1911 Census, age 42,est. birth 1869.
Death Certificate (thanks Richmond Parka): -
died Tooting Bec Hospital, age 75, lived Staines Road, Hounslow, Taxi Cab Driver.
I am trying to find his exact birth details.
-
Hi so he is the Henry Hamblin b c 1873 St Pancras with wife Beatrice and children on 1901 RG13/31/150/22
Keyboard86
PS have you not got their marriage certificate?
1911 says he was born in 1869?
03-07-2023
Well i know that Henry C. Hamblin's wife was Beatrice Lillian Turner
I have no further details of their marriage
-
1891 Census
Harry Hamblin, boarder, single, age 23, Hackney Carriage Driver, born St Pancras
03-07-2023
Just checked https://www.freecen.org.uk/ for 1891
Found a Henry Hamblin.
County: London (City)
District: Pancras
Civil Parish: St. Pancras
Ecclesiastical Parish: St. Mathews
Piece:116; Enum District 5; Folio 110, Page 46; Schedule; 376
House Number: 7
House or Street Name: Carlow St., (NW1).
2nd section:
Hamblin Henry, Boardr, S (single), M (male), age 23,
Hackney Carriage Driver (Em'ee)
County: London (City)
Place: St. Pancras
Any ideas of the Em'ee?
Is this the person i'm looking for?
2 & 2 seems to add up.
Maybe i'll have a good chance at the G.Reg.Office?
-
Just so you have an idea what has already been found this is link to Calpe's previous thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=339253.306;topicseen
03-07-2023
I'll look into this later
-
Firstly, please allow for any name references, persons etc. i might forget to mention, it is not my intention. Just trying to get my head around so much information coming forward. With thanks in advance.
Information i have on Henry C. Hamblin is the following: -
1901 Census, Civil Parish of Kensington, address 167 Clarendon Rd, 3 rooms occupied.
Head of Family, age 28, occupation - Hackney Carriage driver, born London St. Pancras.
Also listed as his wife Beatrice (born Bedford, Luton), age 28 and 4 children.
In the 1911 Census: -
Henry Hamblin, age 42, married 20 years, Taxi Cab Driver, birthplace St Pancras, London.
Listed is his wife Beatrice (born Luton, Bedford) and 8 children, one had died, (no name).
In Ancestry UK 1911 Census, they give the address as 36 Clifton Gardens, Chiswick, London.
With thanks to Richard Parka, he has covered all of Henry C. Hamblin's children, so of course the interest here is in Henry's ancestors and general information.
Again thanks to Richard Parka, i've now added all this information
-
Whilst in 1901 & 1911 Henry Hamblin has Beatrice (nee Turner) as wife we haven't found a marriage index for them. 1911 says they were married for 20 years which suggests it was in 1891. The first daughter listed Violet (Mary Ellen) Hamblin we've established was born on 18 June 1891 in Pancras to mother Beatrice Lilian Turner (no father on birth certificate) & the GRO index has mother's maiden name blank. There is no proof that Henry Hamblin is the father.
The next child Henry George birth index is in Mar 1896 Fulham RD born Hammersmith as per census. Henry & all subsequent children on the censuses plus those born after 1911 have mother's maiden name of Turner. They may not have married but if they did it would be between 1901 & 1906. Perhaps get the birth cert of Henry George to get more information.
The child who was dead as per 1911 census was Charles Cyril Hamblin born Sept 1902, mother's maiden name of Turner. & died aged 0 years in Mar 1903, both Kensington RD.
Henry Hamblin's occupation in 1911 Taxi cab driver & in 1901 Hackney carriage driver as is the occupation of Harry Hamblin found in 1891, so suggesting that they are same person.
Regards John
03-07-2023
John, very interesting to read that no father was entered on all those Birth Certificates and that Charles Cyril (Hamblin) born Sept 1902, shows mother's maiden name of Turner.
Richard Parka found this death Cert. which does list Henry Hamblin as father, the baby having died 10-01-1903.
Also Richard Parka found birth Cert, for the 2nd child, Henry George Hamblin (born 05-01-1896), father is Henry Hamblin, mother Beatrice Lillian Hamblin formerly Turner. As Henry Hamblin is listed as father in 1896 what does this tells us?
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Just as markers, there is this birth reg:
Henry Hambling Pancras 1b 12 Sep 1870 Qtr
Also these three (one is Glos) all Sep 1867 Qtr:
Henry Charles Hamblin Westbury S. 6a 229
Henry Claude Hamblen West Ham 4a 26
Henry Hamblin St Martin 1a 415
One more:
Harry Charles Hamblin Reading 2c 370 Mar 1869 Qtr
03-07-2023
So much for the Registrar's of those days.
Typos galore
Which 'Hamblin' would i check for at the G.R.Office?
-
Thanks John. Its on order, 13/07/2020, last pdf birth cert. took 2 weeks to arrive.
Sorry, to Clarify properly : I ordered Harry Hamblin, 1874 Qtr. Mar. St Pancras. Vil 01B Pg 152 Birth Cert.
That middle name Cyril apears only once as far as I know, on my mothers marrige cert,
My remote hope is that it apears on the St Pancras "Harry" above too giving it weight. In the probable absence of Henry Cyril Hamblin- Beatrice Lilian Turner wedding cert ever existing.
Thanks the child Charles Cyril d. 0 find. He was born my uncle & sadly I never knew of this existance until recently. Noticably the Cyril middle apears documented again for the second time
03-07-2023
A small typo there from Richard Parka, the name should be Henry (Cyril) Hamblin and yes as he says, on his mother's marriage certificate it does list the middle name of Cyril.
Lets keep digging for Henry Cyril Hamblin's correct birth certificate.
I wonder about the marriage certificate too....
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;D John, that is the trouble ploughing through page after page on another thread is not my idea of fun, but will concentrate on elusive Henry C Hamblin b c 1873 or 1869 St Pancras, were the deaths of both him and Beatrice L found?
Keyboard86
Did George Henry Turner marry a Jane later?
03-07-2023
Elusive he still is.
Yes the deaths of them were found thanks, Richmond Parka obtained Henry Cyril Hamblin's, 11 May 1948.
The wife's date was 27 Feb 1944.
-
George Henry certainly lived with a Jane but I haven't found a marriage. Emma Ellen was still alive so maybe he didn't want to commit bigamy.
The trouble is the original Hamblin thread which Calpe started to look for Mary Clare nee Hamblin, exploded into other areas so there is a lot on there.
I don't know if deaths for Henry and Beatrice Hamblin have been found.
[/quote]
03-07-2023
Just posted in reply #91
-
Likely death
Staines, Middlesex January 1944
Beatrice L Hamblin b abt 1873
There is a death in Wandsworth, 1948
Henry Hamlin Born abt 1873
I think I offered that for some reason on the other thread.
03-07-2023
Plz see reply #91
-
Henry is alive in 1939, is he not?
With an alleged date of birth, that has not been mentioned here?
I promise that I am not claiming that the 1939 Register in any way resembles a census! ;D
Am in enough trouble with that tonight!
Electoral registers?
John
03-07-2023
Death of Henry Cyril Hamblin 11 May 1948.
Birth years have only been seen as about 1869 - 1873.
-
Staines, Middlesex January 1944
Beatrice L Hamblin b abt 1873
There is a death in Wandsworth, 1948
Henry Hamlin Born abt 1873
I think I offered that for some reason on the other thread.
Which other thread?
Register of graves, Havelock Cemetery (or Havelock Norwood?)
Interred together there are
Beatrice Lillian Hamblin, buried 4 March 1944, age 71
Henry Hamblin, buried 15 May 1948, age 76
Grave 52, Section C (B)
Or something like that!
Image is on ancestry.
03-07-2023
That would be Henry Hamblin, Born abt 1873
Havelock Cemetery, Southall.
-
So with his age 76 at burial in May 1948 although GRO death index has age 75, plus him being age 74 in the newspaper report of Dec 1945, plus his birth date on 1939 register being 1 June 1872 (if it is right that is?) this all tallies with his age being 28 of 1901 census - therefore it is wrongly stated as 42 on 1911 census. So is the Harry Hamlin age 23 found on 1891 census him ?
So we still cannot find his birth index in 1871 (+/- 1 yr) perhaps or find him on 1881 census
Cheers John
03-07-2023
Why is everything a money spinner?
You have to have subscription for this to see....A
Then you need subscription for....B
Not forgetting subscription for C too.
There appears no practical (non-subscription) way to see any Census
-
03-07-2023
Why is everything a money spinner?
You have to have subscription for this to see....A
Then you need subscription for....B
Not forgetting subscription for C too.
There appears no practical (non-subscription) way to see any Census
[/quote]
Family Search have the census transcriptions - no charge. FreeBMD have BMD records for England and Wales - no charge.
Don't know much about Family Search BUT I do know that FreeBMD relies totally on transcribers who do the work for NOTHING. :-X
Plus, if you live in England I believe that you can access a lot of subscription sites at your Library - no charge. :-X
-
The parents ... Henry William Hamblin married Elizabeth Stenhouse at St.George Hanover Square in Dec 1865.
On 1871 census they were living at 5or7 Little George street, Chelsea with 3 children, he was age 27 a Baker.
On 1881 census they are at 6 Spencer Road St.Pancras with 4 children (1 from 1871 & 3 more including Harry age 7, one from 1871 is Henry George born 1870 & not with them in 1881, so assumed died).
Henry William is age 36 born Newbury, Berks 7 a Railway Signalman. Ancestry has Railway Employment record for him, he started at St.Pancras in 1875 age 32 as a pointsman.
Baptism records for 5 of the children show him as a pointsman, their address 6 Fleet Mews, 4 were done at St.Saviours Middx on 15 Apr 1878, showing birth dates. Harry is born on 16 Dec 1873 which matches your birth certificate.
03-07-2023
Trying to understand this post...
The parents... Henry William Hamblin who married an Elizabeth Stenhouse are parents of ?
-
I ordered Harry Hamblin, 1874 Qtr. Mar. St Pancras. Vol 01B, Pg 152, Birth Cert.
That middle name Cyril apears only once as far as I know, on my mothers marrige cert. My remote hope was that it apears on the St Pancras "Harry" Hamblin.
In the probable absence of Henry Cyril Hamblin- Beatrice Lilian Turner wedding cert ever existing.
Still awaiting my uncle "Harry" Henry George Hamblins pdf birth cert. eldest son of Henry & Beatrice.
Superintendent Registrar’s District: St Pancras
Reg district : Kentish Town.
1874 BIRTHS District of : Kentish Town, County: Middlesex
When where born: 16/12/1873 - 3, Ingestre Rd, Name: Harry,Sex: BOY
Name father: Henry William Hamblin
Name/ MN Mother Elizabeth Hamblin, Formerly Stenhouse. Prof. Father Baker
Informant H W Hamblin, fafther 3, Ingestre Rd, Brecknock Rd. (Both rd's Check out)
Registered 27/01/1874 Signed off by Reg-, Bapt: Blank.
All information crown copyright property.
03-07-2023
Please correct me, but is this text (italic) taken from Henry Cyril Hamblin's Birth Certificate?
It appears that if a marriage took place is could have been between 1901 & 1906
-
The parents ... Henry William Hamblin married Elizabeth Stenhouse at St.George Hanover Square in Dec 1865. On 1871 census they were living at 5or7 Little George street, Chelsea with 3 children, he was age 27 a Baker. On 1881 census they are at 6 Spencer Road St.Pancras with 4 children (1 from 1871 & 3 more including Harry age 7, one from 1871 is Henry George born 1870 & not with them in 1881, so assumed died). Henry William is age 36 born Newbury, Berks 7 a Railway Signalman. Ancestry has Railway Employment record for him, he started at St.Pancras in 1875 age 32 as a pointsman. Baptism records for 5 of the children show him as a pointsman, their address 6 Fleet Mews, 4 were done at St.Saviours Middx on 15 Apr 1878, showing birth dates, Harry is born on 16 Dec 1873 which matches your birth certificate.
Henry William Hamblin was informant on his wife Elizabeth Hamblin nee Stenhouse death cert who died of typhoid at their address: 1, Salisbury Road Islington 03/01/1889 aged 45. Death Reg 05/01/1889.
03-07-2023
Apologies, i'm lost.
Who is this Henry William Hamblin? He is who's father or son?
I know of a Henry George Hamblin, born 05-01-1896.
This is one of Henry Cyril Hamblin's sons.
-
There was one last child born to the Hamblin -Stenhouse family.
1886 Ernest . Islington. M 01B pg 219
Although negative, there is an object to this.
To disprove possible link between Harry Hamblin born 1873 St Pancras & H.H Cabbie St Pancras 1891 census once & for all.
Finding 1873 Harry approx 18 still with his father in 1891 would certainly do this.
These Harry's probably one person was first suggested 10 + years back & remains plausible.
Chances of a marriage between Henry & Beatrice was always vanishingly small.
Circumstantial past seems as good as it gets for Grandad Henry? Hamblin, he spent his last six years in our home never uttering a word of his past. As in the rest of his life. As did his wife Beatrice.
I'll put final findings together next re. 1891 census.
03-07-2023
Sorry but i'm lost on this Hamblin-Stenhouse connection
-
On 1901 census living as a boarder at 43 St.George's Avenue, Islington we have Harry Hamblin, widower, age 56 Signalman Midland Railway.
His wife Emma Hamblin has death index in Islington RD in Sept 1896 age 38, and a burial at Islington on 27 July 1896.
Also I've found another, not yet mentioned Hamblin/Stenhouse birth in Hampstead RD in Sept 1880 of a son Arthur Stephen, who has a death index in the same RD/quarter aged 0
Not found Harry Hamblin in 1911 census as yet. Cheers John
03-07-2023
Again, apologies, i think ive missed something here Hamblin-Stenhouse
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I have a copy of the father Henry William Hamblin's Will, dated 26 October 1926 probate 1st Mar 1927, he left his entire Estate £137 to exeutar Emily Osbourne 28 Somerset Rd Tottenham.
His address on Will is 70 Clinton Rd Harringay Middx. Retired Railway servant.
Possibly daughter Emily Maude born 1882 St Pancras? She is informant, they are both found living at same address's on his death cert.
Thought I'd tidy up this loose end although we now know this may not be the Henry/Harry Hamblin father of the HH who "married" Beatrice Turner....
About executor & informant Emily Osbourne, she is not daughter Emily Maude...
At 28 Somerset Road Tottenham as per the London Electoral Rolls from 1928 onwards is Emily May Osborne along with Frederick William Osborn, initially I though it was her husband but she was a widow on the Probate entry, so deduced it may be her son. The next year 1929 we also get Winifred May Osborn, deduced this to be her daughter just reached age 21 perhaps. Looking at birth indexes found these children, Frederick Mar 1901 & Winifred June 1903, in Islington RD. From the GRO the mother's maiden name was Wattam. Found marriage index in west Ham RD in June 1893 of Frederick Robert Osborne to Emily May Wattam and also other Osborne/Wattam children. Frederick died 9 Apr 1918 age 47, his probate says address was Sudeley Stables, Dalmeney Road, Tuffnell Park, proceeds to widow Emily Osborne. .
03-07-2023
Are we barking up the wrong tree?
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Has this person ever been mentioned? :-\
Have you thought about/investigated anything in Reply #69?
03-07-2023
We are assuming that Henry Cyril Hamblin was born 1869-1873~ in St. Pancras.
I only hope that there are no typos or better still errors by Registrar's.
If there was a marriage then it could have taken place between 1901-1906 as suggested by johnP-bedford post#8.
We do know for sure that he his partner/wife was Beatrice Lillian Turner, born 7 Sept. 1872 in Luton. She passed away 27 Feb, 1944.
Thank you for that post but initially i would like to avoid similarities.
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03-07-2023
Why is everything a money spinner?
You have to have subscription for this to see....A
Then you need subscription for....B
Not forgetting subscription for C too.
There appears no practical (non-subscription) way to see any Census
Family Search have the census transcriptions - no charge. FreeBMD have BMD records for England and Wales - no charge.
Don't know much about Family Search BUT I do know that FreeBMD relies totally on transcribers who do the work for NOTHING. :-X
Plus, if you live in England I believe that you can access a lot of subscription sites at your Library - no charge. :-X
[/quote]
I don't live in England and our Library would not have that facility.
I'll have a dig in those sites you've kindly listed, thanks
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I think any marriage for Henry and Beatrice would have been found by now?
Re Henry Hamblen Beale
Do remember that Maria Beale, who must surely be his mother, married as Hamblen
Even though she said she was a spinster, and her father was William Beale!
Also that HHB was born in St. Pancras
That his step father, Samuel Collins, has exactly the same kind of occupation as your Henry Hamblin. The Beales were also working in the horse world of London.
Just the kind of background that would be perfect for the elusive Henry Hamblin.
The answer to the problem of Henry Hamblin is almost certainly something left field.
With no marriage certificate to help, at least you have the consistent St. Pancras birthplace, and hopefully that date of birth from the 1939 Register will help.
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From the 1911 Census, how can we move forward to get a Birth Certificate?
Name Henry Hamblin
Sex Male
Age 42
Birth Year (Estimated) 1869
Birthplace St Pancras London, London
Marital Status Married
Occupation TAXI CAB DRIVER
Number in Family 8
Event Type Census
Event Date 1911
Event Place Chiswick, Middlesex, England, United Kingdom
Event Place (Original) Chiswick, Chiswick, Middlesex, England
Sub-District Chiswick
Sub-District Number 5
Piece/Folio 589
Registration Number RG14
Schedule Type 295
I've carried out searches in the G.R.Office starting with 1869 +/- 2 years, all 4 quarters, nothing.
Went then to the other end 1873, nothing.
Tried 1872, 1871, finally 1870, nothing.
>:( >:( >:( >:(
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Ive just done a search on FreeBDM. Nothing!
Type: All
Surname: Hamblin
First name(s): Henry
Start date: Mar 1868
End date: Dec 1874
District: Pancras (1837-1901)
County: London
On all documents his name always appears as Henry Hamblin, except in the case that Richmond Parka stated his mother's marriage certificate does show his middle name as Cyril
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I think any marriage for Henry and Beatrice would have been found by now?
Re Henry Hamblen Beale
Do remember that Maria Beale, who must surely be his mother, married as Hamblen
Even though she said she was a spinster, and her father was William Beale!
Also that HHB was born in St. Pancras
That his step father, Samuel Collins, has exactly the same kind of occupation as your Henry Hamblin. The Beales were also working in the horse world of London.
Just the kind of background that would be perfect for the elusive Henry Hamblin.
The answer to the problem of Henry Hamblin is almost certainly something left field.
With no marriage certificate to help, at least you have the consistent St. Pancras birthplace, and hopefully that date of birth from the 1939 Register will help.
04-07-2023
jonw65, this is what i was dreading for elusive Henry, a variation of name. How on earth would the name have become to what was used on official documents Henry (C) Hamblin?
So after a FreeBDM (God Bless them) search:-
BIRTHS SEPT. 1872
Surname: Beale
Given name: Henry Hamblen
District: Pancras
Vol.: 1b
Page: 61
Based on this information i have also done a search in the G.R.Office.
Nothing!
Suggestions please.
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Whilst in 1901 & 1911 Henry Hamblin has Beatrice (nee Turner) as wife we haven't found a marriage index for them. 1911 says they were married for 20 years which suggests it was in 1891. The first daughter listed Violet (Mary Ellen) Hamblin we've established was born on 18 June 1891 in Pancras to mother Beatrice Lilian Turner (no father on birth certificate) & the GRO index has mother's maiden name blank. There is no proof that Henry Hamblin is the father.
The next child Henry George birth index is in Mar 1896 Fulham RD born Hammersmith as per census. Henry & all subsequent children on the censuses plus those born after 1911 have mother's maiden name of Turner. They may not have married but if they did it would be between 1901 & 1906. Perhaps get the birth cert of Henry George to get more information.
The child who was dead as per 1911 census was Charles Cyril Hamblin born Sept 1902, mother's maiden name of Turner. & died aged 0 years in Mar 1903, both Kensington RD.
Henry Hamblin's occupation in 1911 Taxi cab driver & in 1901 Hackney carriage driver as is the occupation of Harry Hamblin found in 1891, so suggesting that they are same person.
Regards John
03-07-2023
John, very interesting to read that no father was entered on all those Birth Certificates and that Charles Cyril (Hamblin) born Sept 1902, shows mother's maiden name of Turner.
Richard Parka found this death Cert. which does list Henry Hamblin as father, the baby having died 10-01-1903.
Also Richard Parka found birth Cert, for the 2nd child, Henry George Hamblin (born 05-01-1896), father is Henry Hamblin, mother Beatrice Lillian Hamblin formerly Turner. As Henry Hamblin is listed as father in 1896 what does this tells us?
Hi Calpe, good to see that you're back on this quest....
Onwards to 1921 census at 5 St.Peter's Grove Hammersmith (that address tallys with London Electoral Roll entries) we have Henry Hamblin age 52 (1869) born London, taxi driver and wife Beatrice age 49 plus 8 children born 1897 thru to 1916. All the children born 1896 to 1916 as mentioned on 1901/1911/1921 census have mother's maiden name = Turner as per GRO birth enquiry, however the first child Violet Mabel Ellen was registered as Turner in Sept 1891 & not Hamblin, so we don't know if her biological father was Henry Hamblin. Was there ever a marriage for Violet after 1911 where the certificate might name her father?
Cheers John
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So after a FreeBDM (God Bless them) search:-
BIRTHS SEPT. 1872
Surname: Beale
Given name: Henry Hamblen
District: Pancras
Vol.: 1b
Page: 61
Based on this information i have also done a search in the G.R.Office.
Nothing!
He is there
BEALE, HENRY KAMBLEN
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1872 S Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 61
They seem to have misread Hamblen as Kamblen.
It appears that no father will be named.
The big news today is that, if you are curious enough, you can now get a digital image from the GRO for just £2.50
"Image available to view once payment is complete and a link to the image is provided on the order confirmation screen"
-
I used that today for a relative - it was very quick.
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I used that today for a relative - it was very quick.
Thank you :)
I hope it was illuminating as well!
I've thought about having a go, but I can't decide which one to get :-\
-
Yes, it solved part of a problem as the birthdate confirmed she was my aunt but family complications were not resolved through parent names. No father was named.
I now keep thinking I might try a couple more. ;)
-
Good luck!
I don't have those kind of mysteries in my families, unfortunately. Such a boring lot!
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In reply to JohnP-bedford post 110. I'd rather not quote to avoid too much text and perhaps making a mess.
Good afternoon, (08/07/2023) sorry for the slow reply.
I need to check through these posts one by one to take on board new information and maybe add some information myself that Richmond Parka has also helped with.
The 1911 Census shows Henry Hamblin as Head of family aged 42, born St Pancras, London, and signed by him.
Completed years of the present marriage has lasted - 20.
Beatrice Hamblin - Wife, age 38, born Luton.
1st of 8 children alive listed was Violet Hamblin, age 19, born St Pancras.
Checking Violet Mabel Ellen's birth certificate we can see that she was born 18/06/1891 in Pancras. Mother's maiden named is Beatrice Lilian Turner. No entry of father.
1911 Census shows us the 2nd child was Henry Hamblin, age 15, born Hammersmith.
Henry Hamblin's birth certificate shows us, born 05/01/1896, name Henry George, father Henry Hamblin (cab driver), mother Beatrice Lillian Hamblin formerly Turner, living in Shepherds Bush.
As for Henry Hamblin & Beatrice Turner's marriage & certificate, i'm afraid to say i do not have this information. I can only assume that a marriage did take place and perhaps it could have been in the Pancras, Hammersmith, Fulham or Shepherds Bush areas.
I did a search for them from 1891 to 1906 using FreeBDM nothing came up.
I've just dug up a photocopy i had put away, of the Irish marriage certificate, dated 4th April 1920 of Mary Violet Hamblin (Violet Mabel Ellen Turner) with a James Clare. Her address was Peters Place, Hammersmith, father Henry Hamblin, taxi driver.
-
So after a FreeBDM (God Bless them) search:-
BIRTHS SEPT. 1872; Surname: Beale; Given name: Henry Hamblen
District: Pancras; Vol.: 1b; Page: 61
Based on this information i have also done a search in the G.R.Office.
Nothing!
He is there
BEALE, HENRY KAMBLEN
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1872 S Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 61
They seem to have misread Hamblen as Kamblen.
It appears that no father will be named.
The big news today is that, if you are curious enough, you can now get a digital image from the GRO for just £2.50
"Image available to view once payment is complete and a link to the image is provided on the order confirmation screen"
What can i say JohnP-bedford, apart from many thanks!
Can i please clarify this information?
So the Hackney Carriage Driver born in Pancras married to Beatrice Lillian Turner was: -
Henry (first name) Hamblen (middle name) Beale (surname).
This is unbelievable! How the hell are there so may typo errors? These people were 'well paid' government officials! And to mis-spell a persons name is not forgiven.
So if his name was actually Henry Hamblen Beale, how could it be that on all his documents this actual name has never been seen.
What happened to 'Beale'?
I'm going to get a digital image copy!
-
As pointed out the name has been misread as Kamblen.’
If you just search Henry Beale, you can find it.
-
As pointed out the name has been misread as Kamblen.’
If you just search Henry Beale, you can find it.
Misread and enter as Kamblen by who?
The G.R.O.?
So we now have the correct name for my Great Grandfather, Hackney Carriage driver in St. Pancras!
Watch out Beale family.....
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Free BMD has it as Hamblen
GRO matters if you are sending for a copy of the birth certificate. You will be able to see there perhaps how the error has occurred.
-
On the G.R.O. image it is so clear the first forename Henry is spelt with a H.
Yet for some reason the G.R.O. have mistaken the spelling on the second forename. >:(
Instead of it being Hamblen they have entered it as Kamblen. >:(
When on earth did the spelling of Hamblen become Hamblin?
On the G.R.O. image it can be clearly seen as Hamblen!
-
At least you have it now :)
-
So when you've got the birth cert of Henry Hamblen Beale it should give you his mother's name and address. Perhaps we could locate her on 1871 census and them on 1881 census.
-
Yes Calpe let us know what the certificate says :)
Jan
-
Good afternoon folks,
Many thanks for such wonderful help.
The digital image of the Birth Certificate shows: -
Born - 01/06/1872
Name - Henry Hamblem
Mother - Maria Beale, Manchester Street, Pancras
Father - Blank.
So the mother was Beale and Henry Hamblem would of course be a Beale.
In the 1901 and 1911 Census returns we have him:-
Henry Hamblin - spelt H a m b l i n
Ive done a search in https://www.freecen.org.uk/ their records of 1871 & 1891 and his name appears as Henry Hamblin.
Its strange that somewhere down the line Henry Hamblem dropped his surname 'Beale'.
Why would that be?
Surely that would have to be certified officially somewhere?
I wonder if there is a Marriage Registration/Certificate of Henry Hamblin [Hamblem] (Beale) and registered somewhere to Beatrice Lilian Turner?
-
Its strange that somewhere down the line Henry Hamblem dropped his surname 'Beale'.
Why would that be?
Surely that would have to be certified officially somewhere?
A person can call themselves anything they like ;)
Just as long as it isn't for purposes of fraud or deception.
And, he dropped hid MIDDLE name of Beale, not his surname?!
-
The digital image of the Birth Certificate shows: -
Born - 01/06/1872
Name - Henry Hamblem
Mother - Maria Beale, Manchester Street, Pancras
Father - Blank.
That's excellent. It matches the date of birth he gave in the 1939 Register.
Why then did he say he was older in some of the census records? :-\
Its strange that somewhere down the line Henry Hamblem dropped his surname 'Beale'.
Why would that be?
Another strange thing is that after Maria married Samuel Collins the birth registrations of the children have her maiden surname as Hamblen.
And of course she married as Maria Hamblen, spinster, father William Beale!
I wonder if there is a Marriage Registration/Certificate of Henry Hamblin [Hamblem] (Beale) and registered somewhere to Beatrice Lilian Turner?
It would be wonderful, but I fear there isn't one.
Maria's parents were William Beale and Elmira Parker (she is with them in St. Pancras in 1851, age 1)
But I can't see a marriage for William and Elmira either :(
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Its strange that somewhere down the line Henry Hamblem dropped his surname 'Beale'.
Why would that be?
Surely that would have to be certified officially somewhere?
A person can call themselves anything they like ;)
Just as long as it isn't for purposes of fraud or deception.
And, he dropped hid MIDDLE name of Beale, not his surname?!
Calling themselves anything? Quite strange. Would have thought a name as such needed to be registered?
Nope, his first two forenames were Henry Hamblem, he dropped his surname Beale.
Very strange, must have had a reason for doing that?
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See post 124
Is the second forename H A M B L E M or H A M B L E N ??
Looking at it a bit more carefully i would say it's H A M B L E N ...............
-
Its strange that somewhere down the line Henry Hamblem dropped his surname 'Beale'.
Why would that be?
Surely that would have to be certified officially somewhere?
A person can call themselves anything they like ;)
Just as long as it isn't for purposes of fraud or deception.
And, he dropped hid MIDDLE name of Beale, not his surname?!
Calling themselves anything? Quite strange. Would have thought a name as such needed to be registered?
Nope, his first two forenames were Henry Hamblem, he dropped his surname Beale.
Very strange, must have had a reason for doing that?
Not strange at all!
It was quite common for an illegitimate child's middle name to be the surname of the putative father.
-
There seem to be three Hamblen Beale births (if we include the first one indexed Hambler in 1869)
We don't know that the same man was the father of all three children.
Only that Maria used the surname Hamblen when she married.
-
Death under Beale
Sep 1869 Holborn 1b 407
Beale, Henry Hambler
Age 0
OK, we have a burial for him
18 Sep 1869, Victoria Park Cemetery
Henry Hambler Beale
Age 9 months
Address 13 Gt Ormond Yard Holborn
That is where William and Elmira Beale are in the 1871 census.
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Birth indexed twice on old GRO index
March 1869 Holborn 1b 596
Beale, Henry Hambler
Hambler, Henry Hambler
New GRO birth index, just the once
HAMBLER, HENRY HAMBLER
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1869 M Quarter in OF HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 596
So is there going to be a father named on this birth registration?
Indexed twice originally, suggests yes.
But mother's maiden surname blank on new index.
Whoever Mr. Hamblen (or Hambler!) was, whether the father of Henry 2 or not, the answer might be out there!
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I think any marriage for Henry and Beatrice would have been found by now?
Re Henry Hamblen Beale
Do remember that Maria Beale, who must surely be his mother, married as Hamblen
Even though she said she was a spinster, and her father was William Beale!
Also that HHB was born in St. Pancras
That his step father, Samuel Collins, has exactly the same kind of occupation as your Henry Hamblin. The Beales were also working in the horse world of London.
Just the kind of background that would be perfect for the elusive Henry Hamblin.
The answer to the problem of Henry Hamblin is almost certainly something left field.
With no marriage certificate to help, at least you have the consistent St. Pancras birthplace, and hopefully that date of birth from the 1939 Register will help.
This sadly slipped past me as so important posts do, not realising the importance of the contents.
Mary Beale as we now know is Henry Hamblen's mother, and no name for the father.
jonw65, you tell us that she married as 'Hamblen'. How do we know that?
Also you kindly tell us that Mary's father was William Beale. May i ask from where did you find this information? He is my 3rd Great Grandfather!
I'm sorry but you've lost me with 'That his step father, Samuel Collins'.
May i ask from where you obtained this valuable piece of information?
Also that 'The Beales were also working in the horse world of London'.
Thanks
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Hi
I've attached the marriage.
Hope you can see it.
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New GRO birth index, just the once
HAMBLER, HENRY HAMBLER
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1869 M Quarter in OF HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 596
So is there going to be a father named on this birth registration
Right, I ordered it for £2.50.
This is what it says
When/Where Born
Nineteenth December 1868
13 Great Ormond Yard
Name
Henry Hambler
Sex
Boy
Name/Surname Father
Henry Hambler
Name (maiden surname) Mother
Maria Beale
Rank/Profession Father
Wine Merchant
Name/Residence Informant
M Beale
Mother
13 Great Ormond Yard Queen Square
When Registered
Twenty eighth January 1869
Registrar
John Boyden Goodhugh
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So Mr Hamblen is finally revealed? :-\
Albeit as Hambler!
Henry Hambler (lets assume is Hamblen)
Wine Merchant
Don't forget that this earlier Henry, born 19 Dec 1868, died the following year.
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There seem to be three Hamblen Beale births (if we include the first one indexed Hambler in 1869)
We don't know that the same man was the father of all three children.
Only that Maria used the surname Hamblen when she married.
jonw65, you've open up all the 'hidden' paths that i wasn't aware of!
Maria Beale married a Hamblen?
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Hi
No, I don't think that Maria married a Hamblen.
But she must have been calling herself Hamblen, according to the marriage register.
Presumably he was the man who had fathered her children (one or two or all three)
Can he now be found?
Jon
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Here's who I think he is
He died in 1874
Sep 1874 Pancras 1b 42
Hamblen, Jacob Henry
Age 46
I can see him in 1861 in Hackney.
Jacob H Hamblen
Age 33, born Falmouth.
Married to Julia, 23
Wine Merchant
-
The digital image of the Birth Certificate shows: -
Born - 01/06/1872
Name - Henry Hamblem
Mother - Maria Beale, Manchester Street, Pancras
Father - Blank.
Another strange thing is that after Maria married Samuel Collins the birth registrations of the children have her maiden surname as Hamblen.
And of course she married as Maria Hamblen, spinster, father William Beale!
It would be wonderful, but I fear there isn't one.
Maria's parents were William Beale and Elmira Parker (she is with them in St. Pancras in 1851, age 1)
But I can't see a marriage for William and Elmira either :(
Apologies, but something has slipped here i think.
Maria Beale was Henry Hamblen (Beale)'s mother.
The other children will be the ones you previously named, all Beale's?
So if Maria married a Samuel Collins, how was it possible that she kept the names of those 3 children as Hamblen's?
Thank you for the name of Maria Beale's mother - Elmira Parker.
Is there/are documents i can obtain from the G.R.O. or another source?
With thanks
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Hi
Well we now have one of the other children's birth details. So I am looking into Mr Hamblen the wine merchant. Possibly the father of your Henry born 1872, as well as the one born in 1868?
Jacob left a will
Probate Calendar, 1874
16 November
Jacob Henry Hamblen
Formerly of 16 Albion Villas, Albion Road, Dalston, Middlesex, Merchant
Late of 2 Manchester Street, Grays Inn Lane, Merchant's clerk
Died 16 August at 2 Manchester Street
Proved at the Principal Registry by Julia Hamblen of 14 Gloucester Road Regent's Park, Widow the Relict, the sole Executrix
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The digital image of the Birth Certificate shows: -
Mother - Maria Beale, Manchester Street, Pancras
Jacob Henry Hamblen died at 2 Manchester Street.
His widow Julia has a different address on the probate record. She may have simply moved, or were they no longer living together? :-\ No idea.
Does your birth reg give a specific number in Manchester Street?
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Hi
No, I don't think that Maria married a Hamblen.
But she must have been calling herself Hamblen, according to the marriage register.
Presumably he was the man who had fathered her children (one or two or all three)
Can he now be found?
Jon
Confusing. As mentioned up to now there is a William Beale & Elmira Parker.
Elmira's children would of course be Parker's or Beale's if she married or 'declared' them as Beale's.
From where did Maria Beale get the name of Hamblen, there doesn't appear to be any connections to a Hamblen?
The father you mentioned would be whose partner/husband?
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Nineteenth December 1868
13 Great Ormond Yard
Name
Henry Hambler
Boy
Name/Surname Father
Henry Hambler
Name (maiden surname) Mother
Maria Beale
Rank/Profession Father
Wine Merchant
I believe that Maria acquired the Hamblen name from the man on this birth registration
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I think he is in Pancras in 1871
No Jacob, he is just Henry Hamlin
Married, Age 43, Merchant, born Falmouth
Visiting Walter D Whitty, Barrister at law, and his wife Catherine. Both 33, born Liverpool.
Where is his wife Julia?
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Maria Beale was Henry Hamblen (Beale)'s mother.
The other children will be the ones you previously named, all Beale's?
So if Maria married a Samuel Collins, how was it possible that she kept the names of those 3 children as Hamblen's?
Maria Beale probably had three children by 1874. It looks as though they may all have been by Mr. Hamblen (Henry the wine merchant, who possibly was Jacob Henry)
Later she married as Maria Hamblen to Samuel Collins and had more children. But their birth registrations seem to have Hamblen rather than Beale as mother's maiden name. For whatever reason, but it appears she didn't give Beale as her maiden surname, or say she was late Hamblen, formerly Beale.
Maria might have lived with Mr Hamblen for a time. Anyway, she used the Hamblen name when she married Samuel Collins. It would then make sense if Mr. Hamblen died in 1874.
Maria and Mr Hamblen may not have married because he was already married (if he was Jacob Henry), because there was a tendency in her family not to go through a formal ceremony, but just live together (possibily like her parents), or because she and Mr Hamblen were from vastly different social backgrounds.
It's all theoretical at the moment. Manchester Street may be another link.
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Don't know if this has been mentioned before? as quite a lot of detail has been posted
In 1881 census at 12 Gt Ormond Yard Finsbury
Samuel Collins age 32 Coachman
Maria Collins age 31
Henry Collins age 8
Elizabeth age 6
Jessie age 3
William age 2 months
Elmira Beale age 65 widow mother
Is this Henry age 8 (1873) the Henry Hamblin Beale
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Is this Henry age 8 (1873) the Henry Hamblin Beale
I think so. Certainly hope so!
-
Ive seen a number of recent posts but as you'll understand i need to go through them all.
I'm trying to get my head around this.
Henry Hamblen (Beale) was born 01 Jun 1872.
His 'wife' was Beatrice Lilian Turner, born 07 Sep 1872.
Henry Hamblen Beale's mother was a Maria Beale.
Maria Beale lived in Manchester Street, Pancras.
Birth date etc., not known yet....
So I'm to understand that Maria Beale possibly had three children by a guy also with a surname Hamblen, and it appears he could have been a wine merchant, called Jacob Henry Hamblen?
So with three children Maria Beale, used the surname of the assumed father Hamblen.
Might there have been a possible marriage to Mr J. H. Hamblen?
We then learn that Maria Hamblen (nee Beale not used) married a Samuel Collins.
Date/Year known?
More children came along from the marriage of Maria Hamblen & Samuel Collins.
But as jonw65 informs us that these children had their "births registrations seem to have Hamblen rather than Beale as mother's maiden name. For whatever reason, but it appears she didn't give Beale as her maiden surname, or say she was late Hamblen, formerly Beale".
Despite what jonw65 says "It's all theoretical at the moment", what are the chances that these might have been the cases?
-
Deleted - will post later
-
The possible third child. Her BC might help? :-\
June 1874 Pancras 1b 60
Beale, Maria Hamblen
Hamblen, Maria Hamblen
new GRO index will only have one indexing, under the father's name
June 1874 Pancras 1b 60
Hamblen, Maria Hamblen
mother's maiden surname Beale
Sadly young Maria seems to have died in Holborn district the following year.
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Jon,
Do you have any living children who were born before 1871? I can’t find any in records but thought you mentioned the possibilty.
Maria isn’t with her parents in 1871.
Has she been found in 1871?
Calpe, if you look over the thread, you can find references to Maria’s birth and her marriage to Samuel Collins.
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Hi heywood
No, I don't think there are any more that lived. Henry the first born 1868, and I hope Maria born 1874, are the others, but they both died as infants.
There is a Maria Beal, 22, bar maid in Holborn in 1871. Might be her, perhaps.
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Found this baptism at St.George the Martyr, Camden on 12 Sept 1880 of Stephen Henry, son of Samuel Henry & Maria Collins, cab driver of 31 Gt.Ormond Yard (born 17 June 1879).
It's the same area as to where Samuel & Maria Collins & family were on 1881 census, but this child isn't listed and I've not found a death/burial for him as yet, nor have I found his birth index.
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Samuel Henry Collins on that baptism, 12 Sep 1880
Yes, it says he was born 17 June 1879
But he was registered as Samuel William!
COLLINS, SAMUEL WILLIAM
Mother's Maiden Surname: HAMBLER
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 645
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Maria Beale lived in Manchester Street, Pancras.
Birth date etc., not known yet....
She was born in 1849. Mum was Elmira Parker (who was baptized in Norfolk in 1816)
BEALE, MARIA ELIZABETH
Mother's Maiden Surname: PARKER
GRO Reference: 1849 S Quarter in SAINT PANCRAS Volume 01 Page 276
So I'm to understand that Maria Beale possibly had three children by a guy also with a surname Hamblen, and it appears he could have been a wine merchant, called Jacob Henry Hamblen?
He is named as Henry Hamblen (says Hambler) on the birth certificate of the first child, but I think he could be Jacob Henry, yes.
So with three children Maria Beale, used the surname of the assumed father Hamblen.
Might there have been a possible marriage to Mr J. H. Hamblen?
No, she was a spinster when she married Mr. Collins later (despite using the Hamblen name)
Jacob Henry Hamblen was already married to Julia. I think they may have split up, but can't be sure at the moment.
We then learn that Maria Hamblen (nee Beale not used) married a Samuel Collins.
Date/Year known?
Samuel and Maria married 21 April 1877, and I posted the image in Reply #134
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There is a Maria Beal, 22, bar maid in Holborn in 1871. Might be her, perhaps.
I think it says bar maid, there is a tea maid enumerated next.
She is not that far from Great Ormond Yard (to the north) where her parents are, and where she and the Collins family are in 1881.
That place at 21 Red Lion Street is a coffee house in the PO London Directory. Proprietor Henry Clifford, who is the head in 1871 census, which says he is a Hotel Keeper
There are 104 hits for Maria Beale in the newspapers in 1865
Looking at one, she is giving evidence at in inquest into the murders of three boys at Starr's Coffee House, Red Lion Street, where she was living and working as a tea room maid.
No age given for her, but she describes a colleague of hers as "another young girl"
The proprietor of Starr's Coffee House was Henry Clifford
Mrs. Clifford is also mentioned.
Again, Henry Clifford was in the 1865 PO London Directory at 21 Red Lion Street with the coffee rooms.
So it would appear to be the same Maria*.
*But I don't know for sure if it is "our" Maria that's in Red Lion Street!
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Samuel Henry Collins on that baptism, 12 Sep 1880
Yes, it says he was born 17 June 1879
But he was registered as Samuel William!
COLLINS, SAMUEL WILLIAM
Mother's Maiden Surname: HAMBLER
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 645
He is with Samuel and Maria in 1891 as Willie age 12, so I think he must be the William who appears with them in 1881 with wrong age given. He marries Julia Davies in 1908 as William Samuel Police constable in Clerkenwell. He is with Julia in 1911 as William and in 1939 as Samuel W (birthdate 18 June 1879). Not sure what the Henry was about!
-
Hi again & thank you all for your continued interest. Appologies, very rusty navigating quote.
I will remain "lurking" with great interst ;D. Really do apriciate all of this.
Replying to jonw65 #151 post. Re. Henry Hamblin Beale younger sister Maria BC may help.
Ordered her death cert too.
Please find “Maria’s Hamblin” birth certificate, “Maria Hamblen Beale” death cert details, from GRO image.
BIRTH:
Where were born: 10 March 1874, 2 Manchester St.
Name if any: Maria Hamblen.
Sex: Girl.
Name father: Henry Hamblen.
Name mother: Maria Beale.
Rank prof father. Merchant Clerk.
Signature, Description Res informant:
H. Hamblen, Occupier, 2 Manchester Street, Pancras.
When Reg. 18 April 1874
- - - - - - - - - - — - - - - -
DEATH:
Where when died: 28 Aug 1875, 13 Gt Ormond yard
Name surname: Maria Hamblen Beale
Sex: Female
Age: 1 year & 6 months
Rank & prof: Daughter of Maria Beal a Domestic Servant.
Cause: Meningitis
Informant: Maria Beale, mother present at death, 13, Gt Ormond Yard, Queen Square.
-
BIRTH:
Where were born: 10 March 1874, 2 Manchester St.
Name if any: Maria Hamblen.
Sex: Girl.
Name father: Henry Hamblen.
Name mother: Maria Beale.
Rank prof father. Merchant Clerk.
Signature, Description Res informant:
H. Hamblen, Occupier, 2 Manchester Street, Pancras.
Hi RP
Welcome back!
Great info, well done. I think that clinches it, because the probate record for Jacob Henry said
Jacob Henry Hamblen
Formerly of 16 Albion Villas, Albion Road, Dalston, Middlesex, Merchant
Late of 2 Manchester Street, Grays Inn Lane, Merchant's clerk
Died 16 August at 2 Manchester Street
-
Just for completeness -
Julia Hamblin is living at 14 Gloucester Rd (the same address as she is living at when Jacob Henry Hamlin dies in 1874) in 1871, 81 and 91 - in household of Charles Saxton (transcribed as Sartow in 1871) solicitor born 1813. In 1871 her grandmother Sarah Hawkins is also there (as she is in 1861).
Julia remarried in 1896 to Walter Lethbridge - I think a very shakey Charles could be a witness.
As she is at 14 Gloucester Rd in 1871 it does suggest she left Jacob Henry.
There is also a London Gazette entry for 1866 for bankruptcy for Jacob Henry Hamblin
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Julia Hamblin is living at 14 Gloucester Rd (the same address as she is living at when Jacob Henry Hamlin dies in 1874) in 1871, 81 and 91 - in household of Charles Saxton (transcribed as Sartow in 1871) solicitor born 1813.
As she is at 14 Gloucester Rd in 1871 it does suggest she left Jacob Henry.
There is also a London Gazette entry for 1866 for bankruptcy for Jacob Henry Hamblin
Well done. It all seems to have come together very nicely.
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There seem to be three Hamblen Beale births (if we include the first one indexed Hambler in 1869)
We don't know that the same man was the father of all three children.
Only that Maria used the surname Hamblen when she married.
Apologies for late reply, the heatwave (average 29/30 degrees) has really made things very difficult with R.Chat, other priorities came first.
With these 3 Hamblen Beale births, then is it to be understood that Maria Beale was the mother of these 3?
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Death under Beale, Sep 1869 Holborn 1b 407, Beale, Henry Hambler, Age 0
OK, we have a burial for him 18 Sep 1869, Victoria Park Cemetery, Henry Hambler Beale
Age 9 months, Address 13 Gt Ormond Yard Holborn
That is where William and Elmira Beale are in the 1871 census.
Ok, so this child Henry Hambler Beale was one of the 3 children Maria Beale had. but the child passed away only 9 months old.
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Birth indexed twice on old GRO index, March 1869 Holborn 1b 596, Beale, Henry Hambler - Hambler, Henry Hambler
New GRO birth index, just the once - HAMBLER, HENRY HAMBLER
Mother's Maiden Surname: —, GRO Reference: 1869 M Quarter in OF HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 596,
So is there going to be a father named on this birth registration?
Indexed twice originally, suggests yes.
But mother's maiden surname blank on new index.
Whoever Mr. Hamblen (or Hambler!) was, whether the father of Henry 2 or not, the answer might be out there!
Why would the GRO have him indexed twice with two different names?
Beale, Henry Hambler --- Hambler, Henry Hambler
-
GRO creates an index entry for every surname mentioned on the certificate.
Probably because both father and mother are named?
-
Hi, I've attached the marriage.
Hope you can see it.
Thank you so much, ive now added all the information shown on the Marriage Certificate.
Can't make out the name of the Church... Its certainly looks like St. Savior's, Parish of St. Pancras.
So we can see that Maria might have married twice.
That she used the surname Hablen, the father of her children when she married Samuel Henry Collins.
-
New GRO birth index, just the once
HAMBLER, HENRY HAMBLER
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1869 M Quarter in OF HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 596
So is there going to be a father named on this birth registration
Right, I ordered it for £2.50.
This is what it says
When/Where Born
Nineteenth December 1868
13 Great Ormond Yard
Name: Henry Hambler
Sex: Boy
Name/Surname Father: Henry Hambler
Name (maiden surname) Mother Maria Beale
Rank/Profession Father: Wine Merchant
Name/Residence Informant: M Beale Mother
13 Great Ormond Yard Queen Square
When Registered: Twenty eighth January 1869
Registrar: John Boyden Goodhugh
Thank you for that information.
I wonder if the surname is the correct spelling or it's changed in error from Hambler, Hablen then Hamblin...
-
Hi
Well we now have one of the other children's birth details. So I am looking into Mr Hamblen the wine merchant. Possibly the father of your Henry born 1872, as well as the one born in 1868?
Jacob left a will, Probate Calendar, 1874, 16 November
Jacob Henry Hamblen, Formerly of 16 Albion Villas, Albion Road, Dalston, Middlesex, Merchant
Late of 2 Manchester Street, Grays Inn Lane, Merchant's clerk. Died 16 August at 2 Manchester Street. Proved at the Principal Registry by Julia Hamblen of 14 Gloucester Road Regent's Park, Widow the Relict, the sole Executrix
I know that Henry Hamblen was born 1st June 1872, 2 Manchester Street, mother Maria Beale
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I think he is in Pancras in 1871
No Jacob, he is just Henry Hamlin
Married, Age 43, Merchant, born Falmouth
Visiting Walter D Whitty, Barrister at law, and his wife Catherine. Both 33, born Liverpool.
Where is his wife Julia?
Interesting, but all these variations of the surname is sadly making this look a bit messy, we now have a Henry HAMLIN....
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Hi, Well we now have one of the other children's birth details. So I am looking into Mr Hamblen the wine merchant. Possibly the father of your Henry born 1872, as well as the one born in 1868?
Jacob left a will, Probate Calendar, 1874 16 November
Jacob Henry Hamblen, Formerly of 16 Albion Villas, Albion Road, Dalston, Middlesex, Merchant
Late of 2 Manchester Street, Grays Inn Lane, Merchant's clerk
Died 16 August at 2 Manchester Street.
Proved at the Principal Registry by Julia Hamblen of 14 Gloucester Road Regent's Park, Widow the Relict, the sole Executrix
Post 139 gives the date as Sep 1874 Pancras 1b 42
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I think he is in Pancras in 1871
No Jacob, he is just Henry Hamlin
Married, Age 43, Merchant, born Falmouth
Visiting Walter D Whitty, Barrister at law, and his wife Catherine. Both 33, born Liverpool.
Where is his wife Julia?
Interesting, but all these variations of the surname is sadly making this look a bit messy, we now have a Henry HAMLIN....
You have to remember: Spelling is an art-form, not a science! ;)
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Don't know if this has been mentioned before? as quite a lot of detail has been posted
In 1881 census at 12 Gt Ormond Yard Finsbury
Samuel Collins age 32 Coachman
Maria Collins age 31
Henry Collins age 8
Elizabeth age 6
Jessie age 3
William age 2 months
Elmira Beale age 65 widow mother
Is this Henry age 8 (1873) the Henry Hamblin Beale
Thank you, i dont believe it has been.
Things are getting mixed up or ive mistood some information.
Yes i have a Samuel H. Collins (1849-?), he married Maria Beale (1850-?)
They married 21 April 1877. He was aged 28 and she would have been 27.
So it looks like Samuel was married to a Maria Collins (nee Beale?), who was 31 in the 1881 Census.
They then had children Elizabeth, Jessie & William.
Henry Hamblen (Beale) was born on the 1 June 1872, so it would have been him.
Strange though his name is now down as Collins. First time i've seen it given that way.
Was he a Hamblen, Beale or Collins?
Was Henry Hamblen (Beale) the son of Samuel H. Collins & Maria Collins (nee Beale)?
-
Is this Henry age 8 (1873) the Henry Hamblin Beale
I think so. Certainly hope so!
With a birth date 1 June 1872, it certainly looks like it
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Not sure that I can agree with some of your assumptions:
21 April 1877 - St Saviour - image of parish register entry:
Samuel Henry Collins, 28, bachelor, Coachman. Father: Samuel, Coachman.
Maria Hamblen, 27, spinster. Father: William BEALE, Coachman.
Samuel and Maria both signed the register.
We can only be certain of what is written. :)
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So Mr Hamblen is finally revealed? :-\
Albeit as Hambler!
Henry Hambler (lets assume is Hamblen)
Wine Merchant
Don't forget that this earlier Henry, born 19 Dec 1868, died the following year.
Interesting jonw65.
I wonder if the surname can be looked at a bit more carefully?
The same way that there appeared to be a GRO error as the surname was actually entered incorrectly misreading the last 3 letters.
I'm going to try and order some digital images.
So thanks to all the GRO references
-
The possible third child. Her BC might help? :-\
June 1874 Pancras 1b 60
Beale, Maria Hamblen
Hamblen, Maria Hamblen
new GRO index will only have one indexing, under the father's name
June 1874 Pancras 1b 60
Hamblen, Maria Hamblen
mother's maiden surname Beale
Sadly young Maria seems to have died in Holborn district the following year.
B.Cert. lets see, probably order one.
Maria passed away in 1875?
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Hi
Don't forget that Richmond Parka ordered both the birth and death certificates for Maria Hamblen Beale, and kindly posted all the information on them in Reply #159.
1881 census, I think Henry is enumerated as Collins simply because that was the name of his step father. Often happens. Whether he was known in childhood as Collins or Hamblen/Hamblin is impossible to say.
Jon
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It occurs to me (best guess) the final Hamblin interpretation, likely due to my Grandfather living in the Collins household before he entered school. I doubt that his mother or stepfather were that literate.
He had no living Hamblen siblings or father to firmly peg his surname on.
From dictation, entering school life "Hamblen"/"Hamblin" is a 50/50 bet, the latter option taken down & stuck. I doubt if he himself ever became aware.
First 100% sighting of adult Henry Hamblin was 1901 census, already with 4 children, I know to be correct.
However, in the 1891 census there was a Harry Hamblin boarder 21? at 7, Carlow St. . Hackney Carriage Driver. fillet attached.
This Henry was born in 1872, he'd only be 19, that's very young to have acquired knowledge, in that this was his father's occupation, it then becomes plausible. Carlow St NW1 is close enough to St Pancras. Harry/Henry being synonymous.
Any thoughts?
Just to flesh this out to date in human terms, from personal knowledge. Henry was most certainly literate, his only vice's broadsheet's & dry biographies. Three of his sons went on too be motorised London cabbies, he reluctantly switched too from his beloved horses.
Here is an odd anomaly, of his 11 children, 6 boys only one Hamblin survives today aged 90.
So mispelling won't rock many boats. :)
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Despite the wrong age I think Harry Hamblin is highly likely to be yours, especially as he is a boarder which can lead to wrong details or maybe he lied about his age. Does he give correct age on later censuses?
To answer my own question in 1901 says he is 28 but in 1911 he states he is 42 - so some confusion there.
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Thanks janan :), as always very suportive in understanding my limited experience.
This entry is a bit of a chesnut thats been sighted by others before, but I thought worth an airing again with a known fixed birth date.
In that none of his given ages, by Henry or others, have never coordinated with the math to date ???. This would be par for course. From that I assume, he or informants had no real idea of his age, or not much interest anyway.
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Hi, No, I don't think that Maria married a Hamblen. But she must have been calling herself Hamblen, according to the marriage register. Presumably he was the man who had fathered her children (one or two or all three). Can he now be found? Jon
.
Apologies once again, heatwave temperatures on average mid 30°C's, just makes working on something like this very difficult and rather than post a mess, ive laid back, temperature today thankfully has dropped.
I see jonw65 says he doesn't think Maria Beale married a Hamblen, but she began using the presumed father's surname of her children. Of course we don't know if he fathered all three of the children.
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Hi
I think it's now reasonable to assume that Jacob Henry fathered all three children. They all have the Hamblen middle name, and we know a Henry Hamblen is the father on certificates 1 and 3. We also have your Henry born in Manchester Street?
It probably won't help, though we can hope, but Jacob Henry did leave a will. With wife Julia the executor. We don't know when it was written of course. For £1.50 it wouldn't do any harm to have it?
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New GRO birth index, just the once
HAMBLER, HENRY HAMBLER
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1869 M Quarter in OF HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 596
So is there going to be a father named on this birth registration
Right, I ordered it for £2.50.
This is what it says
When/Where Born
Nineteenth December 1868
13 Great Ormond Yard
Name - Henry Hambler
Sex - Boy
Name/Surname Father - Henry Hambler
Name (maiden surname) Mother - Maria Beale
Rank/Profession Father - Wine Merchant
Name/Residence Informant - M Beale Mother
13 Great Ormond Yard Queen Square
When Registered - Twenty eighth January 1869
I just can't get the hang of the G.R.O. digital image request, after entering this, got nothing: -
Birth Registered Year - 1868 +/- 1 years
Surname at Birth - Hambler
First Forename - Henry
Second Forename - Hambler
Sex - Male
District of Birth - Holborn
Quarter - tried all four
Volume - 01B
Page - 596
Frustrating!
-
Birth Registration was in March qtr 1869.
(FreeBMD)
GRO says:
HAMBLER, HENRY HAMBLER -
GRO Reference: 1869 M Quarter in OF HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 596
-
I just tried on GRO and got it fine. I usually find when I can’t get something that I have mucked up the district or the quarters.
This entry comes up OK if you forget about them and just enter his name Henry Hambler in 1869 (1868 +/- 1 worked too)
-
New GRO birth index, just the once
HAMBLER, HENRY HAMBLER
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1869 M Quarter in OF HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 596
So is there going to be a father named on this birth registration
Right, I ordered it for £2.50. This is what it says.
When/Where Born - Nineteenth December 1868, 13 Great Ormond Yard
Name - Henry Hambler
Sex - Boy
Name/Surname Father - Henry Hambler
Name (maiden surname) Mother - Maria Beale
Rank/Profession Father - Wine Merchant
Name/Residence Informant - M Beale Mother, 13 Great Ormond Yard Queen Square
When Registered - Twenty eighth January 1869
Registrar - John Boyden Goodhugh
Having looked at this again, I'm really sorry to say that this is getting a little puzzling....
We have a Henry Hambler Hambler, born 19/12/1868, 13 Great Ormond St., Holborn.
His father is a Henry Hambler, Wine Merchant.
His mother is Maria Beale.
So this is the same child that passed away 18 Sep 1869?
Somewhere down the line i have as the parents a Jacob H Hambler (1828-1874) and Maria Beale (b. 1850).
Doesn't appear to make sense from the Family Tree Maker PC programme i have.
-
I think he is in Pancras in 1871
No Jacob, he is just Henry Hamlin
Married, Age 43, Merchant, born Falmouth
Visiting Walter D Whitty, Barrister at law, and his wife Catherine. Both 33, born Liverpool.
Where is his wife Julia?
Ok so ive removed the Jacob, but now we have yet another spelling of his surname Hamlin.
What does the 'visiting Walter D. Whitty......' mean?
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Jon, Do you have any living children who were born before 1871? I can’t find any in records but thought you mentioned the possibilty. Maria isn’t with her parents in 1871. Has she been found in 1871?
Calpe, if you look over the thread, you can find references to Maria’s birth and her marriage to Samuel Collins.
Thanks, i believe i took that information, Marriage of Samuel Collins(B. 1849-D. ?) and Maria Beale (B. 1850 - D. ?) on the 21 April 1877.
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Hi heywood, No, I don't think there are any more that lived. Henry the first born 1868, and I hope Maria born 1874, are the others, but they both died as infants.
There is a Maria Beal, 22, bar maid in Holborn in 1871. Might be her, perhaps.
I think the F.T. Maker tree is alright?
-
What does the 'visiting Walter D. Whitty......' mean?
1871 218 /6/5
15 Wells Street, St Pancras
Walter D Whitty 33 yrs Barrister at Law b Liverpool
Catherine -do- 33 yrs b London
Henry Hamlin 43 yrs Visitor Merchant b Falmouth
Alfred D Wilkinson 42 yrs Visitor Gentleman b London
Harriet -do- 45 yrs Visitor b Devon
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Found this baptism at St.George the Martyr, Camden on 12 Sept 1880 of Stephen Henry, son of Samuel Henry & Maria Collins, cab driver of 31 Gt.Ormond Yard (born 17 June 1879).
It's the same area as to where Samuel & Maria Collins & family were on 1881 census, but this child isn't listed and I've not found a death/burial for him as yet, nor have I found his birth index.
Thanks johnP.
From the F.T.Maker data i have seen in this thread this is the first mention of a Stephen Henry, son of Samuel Henry & Maria Collins. Even stranger is that the child isn't listed neither for birth nor deaths.
I believe then that i should add this child to Samuel H. Collins (1849-?) & Maria Beale (1850-?) the parents?
I do have Samuel H. Collins (1849-?) & Maria Beale (1850-?) other children as Elizabeth (1875), Jessie (1878) and William (1881) surnames as Collins.
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Samuel Henry Collins on that baptism, 12 Sep 1880
Yes, it says he was born 17 June 1879
But he was registered as Samuel William!
COLLINS, SAMUEL WILLIAM
Mother's Maiden Surname: HAMBLER
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 645
All details now have this information added in my F.T.M., thanks
-
-?)
So I'm to understand that Maria Beale possibly had three children by a guy also with a surname Hamblen, and it appears he could have been a wine merchant, called Jacob Henry Hamblen?
He is named as Henry Hamblen (says Hambler) on the birth certificate of the first child, but I think he could be Jacob Henry, yes.
So with three children Maria Beale, used the surname of the assumed father Hamblen.
Might there have been a possible marriage to Mr J. H. Hamblen?
No, she was a spinster when she married Mr. Collins later (despite using the Hamblen name)
Jacob Henry Hamblen was already married to Julia. I think they may have split up, but can't be sure at the moment.
We then learn that Maria Hamblen (nee Beale not used) married a Samuel Collins.
Date/Year known?
Samuel and Maria married 21 April 1877, and I posted the image in Reply #134
Henry Hamblin Hamblen or Hambler, what ever his surname was, its appears to be a bit of a nightmare to establish what actually was the original surname and that perhaps the spelling has varied over the years due to registrars errors.
I believe original certificates or digital images are needed to check all these entries to see where the variations began.
Interesting to see Henry Hambler (1828-1874) and Maria E. Beale (1849-?) had a 21 year age gap!
If i'm correct we know the dates of this Henry having passed away aged 46.
But for Maria E. Beale we only have her birth year 1949.
She married Samuel Collins in 1877 aged 28, 3 years after the death of her first partner/husband, Henry.
-
-?)
So I'm to understand that Maria Beale possibly had three children by a guy also with a surname Hamblen, and it appears he could have been a wine merchant, called Jacob Henry Hamblen?
He is named as Henry Hamblen (says Hambler) on the birth certificate of the first child, but I think he could be Jacob Henry, yes.
So with three children Maria Beale, used the surname of the assumed father Hamblen.
Might there have been a possible marriage to Mr J. H. Hamblen?
No, she was a spinster when she married Mr. Collins later (despite using the Hamblen name)
Jacob Henry Hamblen was already married to Julia. I think they may have split up, but can't be sure at the moment.
We then learn that Maria Hamblen (nee Beale not used) married a Samuel Collins.
Date/Year known?
Samuel and Maria married 21 April 1877, and I posted the image in Reply #134
Henry Hamblin Hamblen or Hambler, what ever his surname was, its appears to be a bit of a nightmare to establish what actually was the original surname and that perhaps the spelling has varied over the years due to registrars errors.
I believe original certificates or digital images are needed to check all these entries to see where the variations began.
Interesting to see Henry Hambler (1828-1874) and Maria E. Beale (1849-?) had a 21 year age gap!
If i'm correct we know the dates of this Henry having passed away aged 46.
But for Maria E. Beale we only have her birth year 1949.
She married Samuel Collins in 1877 aged 28, 3 years after the death of her first partner/husband, Henry.
Samuel Collins having appeared to have separated from his first wife Julia before tieing the knot with Maria E. Beale (Hamblen).
-
Samuel Henry Collins on that baptism, 12 Sep 1880
Yes, it says he was born 17 June 1879
But he was registered as Samuel William!
COLLINS, SAMUEL WILLIAM
Mother's Maiden Surname: HAMBLER
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 645
He is with Samuel and Maria in 1891 as Willie age 12, so I think he must be the William who appears with them in 1881 with wrong age given. He marries Julia Davies in 1908 as William Samuel Police constable in Clerkenwell. He is with Julia in 1911 as William and in 1939 as Samuel W (birthdate 18 June 1879). Not sure what the Henry was about!
Ok, i'm looking into this to put 1 + 1 together.
So the above mentioned Samuel is one of the four children of Samuel H. Collins (1849- ?) and Maria E. Beale (1849 - ?), married 21 April 1877.
The mother's maiden name is down as HamBLER.
Perhaps its time to get all these pieces of information as Digital Images to see the entries, spellings?
Now this Samuel Collins (1879 - ?) marries a Julia Davies in 1908.
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Samuel Henry Collins on that baptism, 12 Sep 1880
Yes, it says he was born 17 June 1879
But he was registered as Samuel William!
COLLINS, SAMUEL WILLIAM
Mother's Maiden Surname: HAMBLER
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 645
He is with Samuel and Maria in 1891 as Willie age 12, so I think he must be the William who appears with them in 1881 with wrong age given. He marries Julia Davies in 1908 as William Samuel Police constable in Clerkenwell. He is with Julia in 1911 as William and in 1939 as Samuel W (birthdate 18 June 1879). Not sure what the Henry was about!
Thank for that, info now added to F.T.Maker
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Yes thanks for that
-
Hi again & thank you all for your continued interest. Appologies, very rusty navigating quote.
I will remain "lurking" with great interst ;D. Really do apriciate all of this.
Replying to jonw65 #151 post. Re. Henry Hamblin Beale younger sister Maria BC may help.
Ordered her death cert too.
Please find “Maria’s Hamblin” birth certificate, “Maria Hamblen Beale” death cert details, from GRO image.
BIRTH:
Where were born: 10 March 1874, 2 Manchester St.
Name if any: Maria Hamblen.
Sex: Girl.
Name father: Henry Hamblen.
Name mother: Maria Beale.
Rank prof father. Merchant Clerk.
Signature, Description Res informant:
H. Hamblen, Occupier, 2 Manchester Street, Pancras.
When Reg. 18 April 1874
- - - - - - - - - - — - - - - -
DEATH:
Where when died: 28 Aug 1875, 13 Gt Ormond yard
Name surname: Maria Hamblen Beale
Sex: Female
Age: 1 year & 6 months
Rank & prof: Daughter of Maria Beal a Domestic Servant.
Cause: Meningitis
Informant: Maria Beale, mother present at death, 13, Gt Ormond Yard, Queen Square.
Richmond Parka, thank you for all that information. Into F.T.Maker it goes.
So we see the surname is being spelt HamBLEN
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[quote author=jonw65
Hi RP
Welcome back!
Great info, well done. I think that clinches it, because the probate record for Jacob Henry said
Jacob Henry Hamblen
Formerly of 16 Albion Villas, Albion Road, Dalston, Middlesex, Merchant
Late of 2 Manchester Street, Grays Inn Lane, Merchant's clerk
Died 16 August at 2 Manchester Street
[/quote]
Can i ask again who is this Jacob Henry Hamblen?
Birth date is any?
-
Baptism at Falmouth, Cornwall, 6 February 1828
Jacob Henry
Son of Jacob + Elizabeth Hamblen
Abode Falmouth
Father a Chandler
Born 19 Nov 1827
Image of BT on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L93K-K9CB-C
Marriage, 25 March 1858, Christ Church Highbury (Islington)
Jacob Henry Hamblen, Bachelor, Merchant, father Jacob Hamblen, Chandler
+
Julia Hawkins, Spinster, father Matthew Hawkins, Gentleman
Both of full age, and residence for both 11 Albert Terrace
By Licence
Death
Sep 1874 Pancras 1b 42
Hamblen, Jacob Henry
Age 46
For death date see the probate record.
Burial indexed for Jacob Henry Hamblen, 19 August 1874, authority Camden (not sure which cemetery)
This is on deceased online, via the link from ancestry (Web: UK, Burial and Cremation Index, 1576-2014)
But when I search on DO itself for Jacob I get no results!
-
London Evening Standard, 3 Sep1874
DEATHS
Hamblen - Aug 10, of apoplexy, Jacob Henry Hamblen, in his 47th year.
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It probably won't help, though we can hope, but Jacob Henry did leave a will. With wife Julia the executor. We don't know when it was written of course. For £1.50 it wouldn't do any harm to have it?
I have applied for this will suggested, thank you for nudge.
Applied for both 1874/5 years.
There are conflicting years of death. Within the black image suggested results, all his death/probate details can be seen , but year says 1874 in text.
Though I safely assume 1875 is correct.
We'll see..
I find the eldest Collin's daughter Elizabeth birth a bit puzzling, b. about 1875, as jonw65 previously pointed out, messes things up a bit in that nut cracking #69 post. Obvious assumption is Samuel Collins fathered child before their 1877 wedding. The end.
(Joseph) Henry Hamblen’s death year is 1875.
Elizabeth was born about 1875.
Nagging small doubt, Elizabeth Collins could be my Grandfather Henry Hamblen’s (Hamblin) b.1872 full sister?
I have typically failed to find her GRO entry when not simple.
My motive to see this certificate, any GRO pointers greatly appreciated.
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Hi
I think Elizabeth Collins probably married Thomas Edward Manderson at Christ Church Southwark, 4 August 1895.
She said she was 19.
Father Samuel Collins, Postman.
In 1891 Samuel was a Parcel Post Driver.
The Mandersons are in Holborn in 1901. Elizabeth is E Manderson, 24, born Holborn.
In 1939, in St. Pancras, she might say she was born 29 Oct 1878 (the year can't be right)
Good luck with the will, let us know how you get on.
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Thanks jonw65, really helpful. I drew an almost immediate blank with 1875 Will application .
Big silence re. 1874 application so far. Hopefully get a response this week as going away.
If another blank drawn , will request a second look at this 1874 one , via their (microfilm?) typed image clearly stating 1974 & potential culprit towards past error, in that all evidence points to 1875 death.
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Thanks jonw65, really helpful. I drew an almost immediate blank with 1875 Will application .
Big silence re. 1874 application so far. Hopefully get a response this week as going away.
If another blank drawn , will request a second look at this 1874 one , via their (microfilm?) typed image clearly stating 1974 & potential culprit towards past error, in that all evidence points to 1875 death.
Hi RP
Where did you get 1875 from?
This is the BMD index details for his death
Jacob Henry Hamblen 46 died Sep qtr 1874 Pancras District Vol 1b Pg 42
Also
London Evening Standard, 3 Sep1874
DEATHS
Hamblen - Aug 10, of apoplexy, Jacob Henry Hamblen, in his 47th year.
Therefore the 1874 probate record should be correct
Jan
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Thanks Jan, my bad, ::) …….should have gone to Specsavers.
This also makes my Henry half-sister Elizabeth theory too far fetched to pursue. Thanks again.
Looking into this, the wills office sent me two replies for for the 1875 application , one a day apart.
I need to chase the 1874 application today, the reason why I’m missing response now looks obvious & unlikely to turn up otherwise.
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Hi
Probate 16 November 1874
Died 16 August 1874
Registry location London
They have been asking for a folio number, where there is one given (736 here), but they may have stopped doing that?
I hope they don't expect you to pay all over again?
Good luck
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Thanks jonw65. I was able to give folio, as image completely legible.
I have just asked for them to look at this glitch, they make queries easy enough, the receipt numbers make case pretty open & closed. Hopefully a result sooner rather than later. Drums fingers :)
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Wills team replied very quickly. Will not that easy to read.
Probate grant.
16 November 1874. Jacob Henry Hamblen
Formerly of: 16 Albion Villas, Albion Rd, Dalston , Middlesex. Merchant.
But late of: 2, Manchester St, Grays Inn Lane in said county. Merchants Clerk.
Died 16 August 1874, 2 Manchester St. … aforesaid?
Proved Central Registery by Oath of Julia Hamblen, 14, Gloucester Rd, Regents Pk in said county widow of the Relict. Sole execut.
Effects under £100.
The Will.
Me Jacob Henry Hamblin, 16 Albion Villas, Albion Rd, Dalston, Middlesex.I give unto my dear wife Julia All my estate and effects, follows barely legible jargon. … & appoint my dear wife Julia sole executrix of this my will .. legal jargon….this 3rd November 1858 ..signature -J H Hamblen-
… more jargon.
Witnessed Charles Saxton, 11, Albert Terrace, St Pauls Rd, Islington - Sarah Hawkins same place.
Thanks for all guidance, nice to have these printed off. Written 1858 & it seems neglected to update in changed circumstances . He was still pretty young & appoplexy back then as I understand it was a general term for keeling over & dying immediatly. Saxtons dabs all over this ;D
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Hi RP
So sorry Jacob Henry didn't make a new will. Unless Julia found it and burnt it.
But well done for getting it.
We can only wonder how things would have turned out for young Henry if Jacob had lived!
Jon
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So sorry Jacob Henry didn't make a new will. Unless Julia found it and burnt it.
I think she did!
Anyway good to have it RP, if only to tie up loose ends
Jan
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Ha-ha, slim pickings anyway if he had been supporting her too, post bankruptcy, I think that Will was salted away only months after they were wed, shows foresight though .
Thanks all for all these pieces of a jigsaw, that gives a pretty complete story now.
I must admit I thought finding Grandad Hamblin a lost cause, thankfully long lost cousin Calpe 1704 would have none of it & jonw65 magical post #69 had already cracked this open in 2020. I had typically ignored this nugget. ::)
Leaving my family history incomplete with a main actor missin, was akin to having a front tooth blacked out in a portrait on my wall. Thanks all.