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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: strictlysnoopy on Sunday 12 July 20 09:18 BST (UK)
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Gwenllian was my 2nd gg married to HenryWilliams.
I have her marriage to Henry in 1835 and her death both recorded at St Ilan Eglwysilan 1876 but having problems with birth/baptism. On all census it has her birth as Dynas/Dinas Glamorgan, but I have failed to find any record. The nearest record is a birth in Neath.
Looked up maps on National library of Scotland, no Dinas in Elwysilan but a Mynydd Dinas in Neath but no village.
Cannot find the GRO info for marriage to send for a copy but have a photo of the church record.
Please can you help ,
Thanks
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Her year of birth on Census please?
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There is no GRO record of the Marriage as it was before civil reg which started Sept 1837
I've found her on Census now :)
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Just about to reply to you. 😬
That was another question as to whether 1835 was before GRO info.
The Neath record has the date of 15 May 1815, which does not tally with census info which records her age at 29 in 1841 which makes her dat of birth 1812.
Thanks
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I Tree has her as the Daug of JAMES/ANN birth 17 NOV 1816 Dynas Eglwyslian, Glamorgan, Wales
They have no 1841 Census but a 1851/1861 for Ann
There is this 1841 Census;
Jas James 55 ? Officer, not born in County
Ann James 55
Jemima James 30
William James 25
Mary James 25
Lydia James 15
Jas James 15
All others born in County
If you look at Census it has Hundred: Dinas Powis**
Ann is still alive 1851/1861 Census living in Eglwysilan born c 1785
Her Burial on FreeREG 8 Mar 1865 age 80
Just a suggestion.
Trish :)
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Thank you very much. Found the 1851 and 1861 census, saved but not added to tree yet. This makes far more sense to me than Neath but who knows, I know women lied about their age but cannot understand that they would for place of birth.
The family from Neath also has a Gwenllian James parents as James and Ann James. :) found them on FreeREG.
On church wedding/marriage register photo, witnesses are not parents, no help there.
Thanks again
Suzanne
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I think I found a couple of the other childrens bapts to James/Ann.
They seem to be born in various places so they may have moved around a lot.
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Dinas within the parish of Llantrisant
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Llantrisant/Dinas
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102342526
not the same place as Dinas Powis, not in the Hundred of Dinas Powis
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/hundred.DinasPowis
village of Dinas Powis is the parish of St Andrew's Major
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/StAndrewsMajor
If you're looking for place names in Wales, this site is good and has link the NLS maps. Use the advanced search for more common names
https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/
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sorry, meant to give you more info from marriage. Henry & Gwenllian both of the parish of Eglwysilan,
witnesses Thomas Evans & John Morgan, Thomas the only one who signed, the others marked.
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Hi Osprey, thanks for the place name link, good to know. Love looking at the NLS maps.
Same info as me as to the marriage. Frustrating when parents aren't involved or too early for GRO.
Just found a family from the above area with the mother as Gwenllian James, which is usually a good sign but can only find 3 sons.
I'll keep looking, thanks again
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I can lose hours looking at the NLS maps!
;)
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I can lose hours looking at the NLS maps!
;)
I'm with you there.
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Dinas in the Rhondda Valley this is your Dinas
Heddwch
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Hi, heddwch
Please can you tell me how you came to this conclusion. I have used Dinas, Rhondda as her birthplace on Free Reg with no results at all, same with Dinas Llantrisant. The only result to give a baptism is Dinas Neath. In fact I have even just used Glamorgan but again no results. Neath just doesn't feel right somehow, although I am probably wrong.
Regards
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The map I linked to above shows Dinas in the Rhondda valley, near Porth, but Rhondda was not a parish. The various places in the Rhondda are in the parishes of Ystradyfodwg, Llanwonno and Llantrisant as listed here
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Rhondda
According to this list Dinas was in the parish of Llantrisant.
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My immediate thought was Dinas Rhondda as well. It's one of those place names that predates industrialisation in that particular area of South Wales (Llantrisant/Rhondda) so would have been used habitually by someone born in the early 19th century
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Hi all, thank you for your replies much appreciated. I might have, with the help of a 'light bulb moment' answered my own question as to baptism of Gwenllian James.
I knew all maternal lines of the tree were 'chapel' people, my mother included, she and her sister were never baptised. Last year I visited NLW to view the fiche of my other gg grandparents born in Cardigan. Like Gwenllian both married and buried in church but no baptism. It was a staff member
I talked to informed me that the majority of 'chapel' members did this as chapels were not authorised to carry out marriages and burials before 1837. Checked it out tonight using Bruce Durie's book Welsh Genealogy and Wales Geniology Help pages not everyone knows this part 1 genuki.org.uk. Both branches were born and married early 1880's. So perhaps this is why Gwenllian is a mystery.
As to Dynas/Dinas could be that there was a part of Eglwysilan named Dinas that was a local term known only to people who lived there or nearby. I know I certainly have a few in the village I grew up in. I do know this area quite well as my maternal grandfather lived in the area all his life plus I also know Dinas Rhondda as I am a Rhondda girl born and bred ;).
Thank you all again, please put me right if I am too far of the mark
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I've looked on the Welsh historic place names site and they don't have a place, house or field name with dinas in it in Eglwysilan. Rhondda/CoedEly is the nearest
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good luck
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Marriage was 21st December 1835 St Illan sorry if you have this
There is a Baptism on Free reg Gwenllian James 8th May 1915 Neath St Thomas
Father James Occupation Weaver Mother Anne
Heddwch
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On all census it has her birth as Dynas/Dinas Glamorgan
The "Gweny/Gwenllian" I have tracked has Places of Birth -
1851 - "Glamorgan, Dinas" (HO107 2454 112 22)
1861 - "Glamorgan, Eglwysilan" (RG09 4028 47 19)
1871 - "Dynas" - the transcribed record (FindMyPast) has "Pembrokeshire" as County?? (RG10 5366
36 21)
Is this "your" Gwenllian Williams?
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Having ceased my Ancestry subscription I cannot check but your list does look accurate for Gwenllian. For 1871, she was living in Cabalfa, Cardiff.
Pembroke is the surprise. Could have been an error in translation as my grandfather's family were all welsh speakers, but that is just a thought.
Yes heddwch I have the marriage in St Ilan. Still think her baptism will be a mystery as my grandfathers family were all chapel, notoriously difficult to find at the time. Most of her decendants are buried at Whitecross Eglwysilan.
Thank you
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Hi regarding the name of the village
Dinas was in Ystradyfodwg which is now the Rhondda I am sorry if you already know this
Best wishes Heddwch
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Rhondda girl born and bred, heddwch ;D so yes I have researched Dinas Rhondda.
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Hello
Me to
Heddwch x
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On all census it has her birth as Dynas/Dinas Glamorgan
The "Gweny/Gwenllian" I have tracked has Places of Birth -
1851 - "Glamorgan, Dinas" (HO107 2454 112 22)
1861 - "Glamorgan, Eglwysilan" (RG09 4028 47 19)
1871 - "Dynas" - the transcribed record (FindMyPast) has "Pembrokeshire" as County?? (RG10 5366
36 21)
Is this "your" Gwenllian Williams?
The 1871 image doesn't have a county listed. Suspect Find My Past transcribers have just picked the Dinas In Pembrokeshire from their options of locations without the benefit of local knowledge!
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On all census it has her birth as Dynas/Dinas Glamorgan
The "Gweny/Gwenllian" I have tracked has Places of Birth -
1851 - "Glamorgan, Dinas" (HO107 2454 112 22)
1861 - "Glamorgan, Eglwysilan" (RG09 4028 47 19)
1871 - "Dynas" - the transcribed record (FindMyPast) has "Pembrokeshire" as County?? (RG10 5366
36 21)
Is this "your" Gwenllian Williams?
The 1871 image doesn't have a county listed. Suspect Find My Past transcribers have just picked the Dinas In Pembrokeshire from their options of locations without the benefit of local knowledge!
That's how I interpreted the inclusion of a County in the absence of an entry by the Enumerator.
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I have just read a book called Victorian Pontypridd by Don Powel and found a passage about Dynea Eglwysillian.
Quote ". Below Rhydfelin the canal had a lock called Dynea Lock. Originally spelt 'Denia' ( attractive location). Sunday schools would hire boats and travel from Pontypridd and Cardiff to enjoy the lock and countryside. It is situated beneath Mynydd Mayo and Eglwysilian. In winter the canal would freeze over and many people would enjoy skating by the lock "
(Just below where Tesco is today)
So Trish1120 thanks for finding that census for me, I will research further into this family which sounds much more pertinent than Neath.
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Hi there Just a thought ? do you think the translation of Dynas means Parish i have searched with dictionary welsh to english no joy but its something i heard a long time ago Sorry if this is incorrect
Best wishes
Heddwch
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Old Welsh- male noun Dynas/Dinas fortress, female noun Dynas/Dinas city/meadow.
As mentioned it was "an Attractive place". Unspoilt meadows alongside canal below mountain. So Dynea Rhydfelin could be the place Gwenllian was born.
Fingers crossed 😬