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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: missmuddle on Tuesday 14 July 20 14:17 BST (UK)
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I have been looking for years but keep coming to the same answer so is this my granddad?
Lionel Albert Archer b 1896 Tring Hertfordshire
Private WO329 Reg No. 55137
Manchester Regiment.
That's the bit confusing me, Manchester Regiment. He came from Hertfordshire I have a photo of him & his cap badge is clearly visible, two stripes on his sleeve which I believe (could be wrong) that he was injured twice.
Any info would be much appreciated.
Thank you
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Did you mean to attach a photo to this ? :)
Maec
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There are a number of possibilities for stripes on his sleeve! Upright small stripes on the lower left sleeve are wound stripes. Rank stripes are V shaped chevrons, often called stripes on the upper arm, two being corporal. Good conduct stripes are V shaped chevrons point uppermost on the lower left sleeve two indicating over two and under six years service. Check wound stripes:
https://www.researchingww1.co.uk/ww1-wound-stripes#:~:text=Due%20to%20the%20material%20they%20were%20made%20from%2C,line%2C%20around%20the%20size%20of%20a%20little%20finger.
The local affiliations took a back seat soon after war began with the army putting people where they were needed so don't be surprised with his being in the Manchesters. The medal award roll says he served with 21 Battalion overseas.
(The WO 329 is the National Archives medal award rolls from which the info has been extracted.)
MaxD
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Linking to this gallery of photos on an Ancestry public tree.
The cap badge looks like a Lancers regiment:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/150650587/person/310244139030/gallery
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The photo I have is defiantly Herts Regiment, sorry I can't attach a photo but he is on ancestry
Thanks again
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Is the man that ShaunJ picks up on Ancestry your Lionel?
The man looks like a cavalryman and the cap badge is not Hertfordshire Regiment but could be Hertfordshire Yeomanry (who were cavalry).
I'll send you my direct email by PM to clarify the cap badge.
MaxD
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Yes that's him on Ancestry, I think the stripes on his uniform can be seen as well.
If they moved around did they change uniforms as well or just the cap badge?
Sorry I'm not clued up on uniforms
Missmuddle
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One wound stripe and one good conduct stripe so over 2 years service.
I am pretty certain that he is Herefordshire Yeomanry which is not the Hertfordshire Regiment
https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/283444159423?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-153316-527457-8&mkcid=2&itemid=283444159423&targetid=4585032211933600&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=398226948&mkgroupid=1302921513642151&rlsatarget=pla-4585032211933600&abcId=2145997&merchantid=87779&msclkid=eddfbc8cf34d13cc45f1e3812e0dd29f
I think it unlikely that he served overseas with the Manchester Regiment but the task now is to find a military record in the cavalry - none so far.
Run out of time at the moment!
MaxD
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Thank you MaxD still my superstar.
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The trouble is that there is only one Lionel Albert Archer and he served with the Manchester Regiment.
Is it possible that the photographs are of his brother Stanley, who did serve with the Herts Yeomanry?
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1219/miuk1914e_123507-00627
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My alleged star is eclipsed by ShaunJ's uncanny ability to find things other researchers have not found. His suggestion makes a great deal of sense. Stanley served over 4 years so the good conduct badge adds up. While his surviving record does not record a wounding, he was sent home from France in August 1918 after four months in the field which may have been a result of wounds. That said, the man in the photo has two wound stripes which should have warranted an entry on his history sheet. The specific records on which woundings were also recorded, his AFB 103, is not with these records.
Frankly I am at a loss. I don't find him on a casualty list (although by coincidence Lionel Albert in the Manchesters does appear in November 1918).
It doesn't help but he is wearing black cloth covering one of his tunic buttons which indicates mourning for a dead soldier relative - presumably Gordon Sidney who died in 1916
MaxD
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Exactly this has been my problem, It's him with my Nan, no doubt about that. He lost 2 brothers one in France, Gordon Sidney 17/02/16. one at Shorncliffe of flu, Stanley 7/11/1918. Having just move to the RAF.
There are other photos on Ancestry of his brothers (3) as well.
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Weekly Casualty List (War Office and Air Ministry), Tuesday 26 Nov 1918
"WOUNDED
MANCHESTER REGIMENT.- ....; Archer 55137 L.A, Sawbridgeworth; ...."
I understand the place name denotes where enlisted? Initial post mentions "Tring, Hertfordshire".
A brief record on FWR states "Next of Kin Address - Sawbridgeworth"
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Perhaps the answer is that he served in the Herts Yeomanry after the war.
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yes!! could be result. wow Tring, Sawbridgeworth all fits. Manchester regiment is the bit that has thrown me.
gosh so many stars out there must be the comet! ;D
Is the info about wounded on Ancestry?
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The casualty list is on FindMyPast: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=S2%2FGBM%2FWW1-CAS%2F0001953%2F1918%2F1126%2F0012
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Another pointer to the photos being taken post-war: Lionel and wife Fanny were married on 1 December 1918. The photo with Fanny seated was presumably taken after that:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/mediaui-viewer/collection/1030/tree/150650587/person/310244139030/media/5adf680d-3007-41a2-9229-1d5ee1109031
Marriage record on FindMyPast:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FKENT%2FP389_1_D_3%2F63
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I'm not on find my passed. I have a copy of marriage cert December 1st 1918. the photograph with Fanny seated we always thought was the wedding day Rank/profession Soldier so not a lot of help there
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On the coat tails of the real superstars - yes, agreed, service in the Manchesters followed by a later stint, but not overseas, in the Herts Yeomanry. The possibility of his serving in the Yeomanry (perhaps 2/1 or 3/1) before war service remains but as his record has not survived, speculation. The photo of him mounted does not show his GC or wound stripes so would appear to precede the Manchesters.
The weekly casualty list of 26 November 1918 contains the daily lists for that week. The one on which he and about 35 other Manchester men appear is the list compiled on 19 November. Casualty lists took some days to be compiled from returns in the field, sent to the War Office and then published, so we need to look a little time before in the war diary to see when he might have sustained what presumably was his second wounding.
The diary for the period from September 1918 is at http://www.rootschat.com/links/01pq1/. There were a series of attacks in the period 3 to 10 October in which there were 196 men wounded, another between 19 and 24 October with 69 men wounded and another between 25 and 29 October in which 19 men were wounded (there were killed and missing also in each period). As these were the last engagements before the Armistice it is highly likely that it was during one or other of these actions that he was wounded.
MaxD
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Huge thank you to everyone for the information, it seems that he was in the Manchester Regt. & I have learnt to stop chasing family stories. Every story has been wrong.
Again Thank you
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Hi All,
Anyone available to look for the service record of Lionel Albert Archer, b. 1896 Tring Hertfordshire.
I know he was in the Herts Yeomanry, & finished in the Manchester Regt. but what/where in between.
Thank you
Threads merged to prevent duplication of effort.
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Having reviewed what I and others have teased out of the meagre clues, I think we are as far as we can be. There is no surviving service record for Lionel Albert Archer that would provide proof positive that the man covered on the Ancestry tree is your grandfather (I am sure one of us would have found it first time round the buoy).
55137 Lionel Albert Archer (Hanes Teulu and ShaunJ) of 21 Manchesters (medal record only) would seem a good fit but medal records do not have personal information.
MaxD
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Having reviewed what I and others have teased out of the meagre clues, I think we are as far as we can be. There is no surviving service record for Lionel Albert Archer
Agreed.
You have very strong link between the "Archer 55137 L A; Sawbridgeworth" on the 1918 Casualty list and
a. the Lionel Albert Archer, bap Sawbridgeworth 1 March 1903 (born 3 Jul 1895), father Albert John Archer (occpn. tailor) and mother Alice
b. the Lionel Archer on the 1911 Census at Sawbridgeworth that "fits" the above baptism (mother excepted).
This apart, nothing.
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Once again I would like to thank everyone, A family member wanted to track his journey through France on the map, I gave everything I had on him & suggested looking for themselves, I also gave information on other family members who were in various places, (Gallipoli, Egypt,) & France.
Hopefully they will now accept that's it, no other info
Thank you folks