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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Yvonne Donnellon on Wednesday 15 July 20 14:33 BST (UK)
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Hi guys
Need your beady eyes on this one! If the surname for James is McCarthy, why is his name listed and not just "ditto'ed" like the rest of the children? Perhaps it's not McCarthy/McCarty? Also can you make out the age?
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James Wearthy do? Perhaps aged 4.
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I see that Ancestry thinks he is 8.
The census is 1851 - in Oriel St, Liverpool, for those looking.
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Think it's a double forename, there is a 'do' at the end but I don't fancy trying to guess what it is.
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John (2 in that 1851 census) seems to have been born 4 Jan 1849 and baptised 14 Jan 1859 as John Carty.
Parents: Patrick & Mary, of Oriel St (same address as in 1851).
Possible birth reg as John Carty mmn Kenny, Mar qtr 1849 Liverpool.
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James Wearthy do? Perhaps aged 4.
Yes, that's how it's transcribed but it just doesn't fit?
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Why do you say it doesn’t fit? I read it independently and only found the Ancestry transcription later, which agreed with my reading other than the age.
Findmypast also agrees.
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John (2 in that 1851 census) seems to have been born 4 Jan 1849 and baptised 14 Jan 1859 as John Carty.
Parents: Patrick & Mary, of Oriel St (same address as in 1851).
Possible birth reg as John Carty mmn Kenny, Mar qtr 1849 Liverpool.
If this is the right one then John may already have been on the way when Patrick and Mary married.
St Anthony’s, Liverpool
Married 26 September 1848
Patrick McCarthy son of Mathew & Ann McCarthy
Mary Kenny daur of Patrick & Sarah Kenny
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Sorry AVM - you beat me to it but I'm posting this anyway as we sort of agree!
I agree with Sinann that it is a middle name -- but does anyone else think the age of Patrick looks like 50 or 60 - whilst Mary his wife is only 30?
It may be a second marriage for Patrick and there is a marriage of a Patrick McCarthy to a Mary Kenny at St Anthony's RC church, Liverpool in 1848. Hence MAYBE (but only maybe) - the son James may have been given the first wife's maiden name. Possibly she died in childbirth (This is pure supposition of course - but if James IS 8 there is a big gap between him and the youngest child John).
I have no idea what that middle name is!! There was a James Thomas McCarthy baptised in 1843 with father Patrick and mother Mary, but that name is certainly not Thomas.
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Why do you say it doesn’t fit? I read it independently and only found the Ancestry transcription later, which agreed with my reading other than the age.
Findmypast also agrees.
Thank you for doing that, I wanted confirmation that the transcribe was correct. Wearthy, given as a middle name for both boys sounds like a surname to me and I don't have this name in my tree. This is a very complicated branch of my family with multiple marriages and blended families.
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It looks like 8 to me.
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Sorry guys, I know Mary's maiden name was Murphy and I don't think Patrick the oldest child is hers, he is too old?
I think this is Patrick's 2nd marriage the first happening in Ireland as that's were both Patrick jnr and Mary jnr were born.
Mary later went on to marry James Gallaghan in 1855 after Pat Senior died in 1854.
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Sorry Yvonne -- I'm getting a bit lost! Are you saying that the maiden name of the Mary on the 1851 census was Murphy please? Hence the second marriage wasn't to Mary Kenny?
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Sorry Yvonne -- I'm getting a bit lost! Are you saying that the maiden name of the Mary on the 1851 census was Murphy please? Hence the second marriage wasn't to Mary Kenny?
Yes, unless I've got this massively wrong, but this is the marriage cert for Mary's second marriage to James Gallaghan which explains why I think this. Oriel Street is constant here, Mary and her new husband are still living there on the 1861 census, with John from her first marriage, Roseannah her youngest child (3) and 3 of James's children from his first marriage to Susan Reilly.
I need a lie down now ;D
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Didn't people sometimes give a child the name of someone who had been good to them or they wanted to impress for some reason. Maybe some Wearthy person had helped the family out in some way.
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Didn't people sometimes give a child the name of someone who had been good to them or they wanted to impress for some reason. Maybe some Wearthy person had helped the family out in some way.
Yes that's very feasible! It's just a very English name and my family are very Irish! :-) Silly I know but it goes against the grain of all my research.
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Didn't people sometimes give a child the name of someone who had been good to them or they wanted to impress for some reason. Maybe some Wearthy person had helped the family out in some way.
Yes that's very feasible! It's just a very English name and my family are very Irish! :-) Silly I know but it goes against the grain of all my research.
That's way I was thinking it wasn't a family name.
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And I bet it's supposed to be Worthy not Wearthy! ???
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Thank you for clarifying Mary's maiden name Yvonne. I can't see a marriage though, between Patrick and Mary Murphy (that doesn't mean to say it's not there of course!)
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Thank you for clarifying Mary's maiden name Yvonne. I can't see a marriage though, between Patrick and Mary Murphy (that doesn't mean to say it's not there of course!)
Sorry if I wasn't very clear, this has pickled my brain today, and the search was prompted by someone telling me my tree was wrong, so I've been on the back foot all day! I have made some progress though, found the baptism record for John https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/2180/images/engl-56170_282-ant-1-4_m_00058?pId=760364&backurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancestry.com%2Ffamily-tree%2Fperson%2Ftree%2F114805715%2Fperson%2F332207582755%2Ffacts
Also found another child, Jane and most interesting in this record is the god mother Mary Mcgrath who shows up several times as a lodger on the census records so I know I'm on the right track .
https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/2180/images/engl56170_282-jos-1-1_m_00233?pId=1487921&backurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancestry.com%2Ffamily-tree%2Fperson%2Ftree%2F114805715%2Fperson%2F332210504780%2Ffacts%2Fcitation%2F962289962138%2Fedit%2Frecord
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Yvonne -- I think the link you gave was for James baptism, rather than John's - and on that baptism - the middle name looks like Thomas! (What do you think?)
The middle name is omitted on the GRO index - where the surname is given as McCartney.
(It would be boring if it went smoothly!!)
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Yvonne -- I think the link you gave was for James baptism, rather than John's - and on that baptism - the middle name looks like Thomas! (What do you think?)
The middle name is omitted on the GRO index - where the surname is given as McCartney.
(It would be boring if it went smoothly!!)
It was James, you are quite correct ;D I have since found John's though, https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/2180/images/engl-56170_282-ant-1-5_m_00022?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.26076856.442466494.1594634687-589154697.1594634687&pId=771529&backurl=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ancestry.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fsse.dll%3Fdbid%3D2180%26h%3D771529%26indiv%3Dtry%26o_vc%3DRecord%3AOtherRecord%26rhSource%3D9841
I dearly wish they would decide on a name and then stick with it, I've had Carty, McCarty, McCarthy, and Rielly Riely Reilly and Reily today, but still no clue where Wearthy comes in! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I had mentioned that John Carty baptism back at reply #4.
Have you found births or baptisms for the other McCarthy children in the 1861 census entry?
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I had mentioned that John Carty baptism back at reply #4.
Have you found births or baptisms for the other McCarthy children in the 1861 census entry?
I know, thank you. I just wanted to find the actual record myself so I could add it to my tree. The other children are Susan Reily's. Its a direct descendant of these 3 girls who contacted me to tell me I was mis-spelling their surnames names in my tree, Galligan instead of Gallaghan:-)
I have ordered Catherine's birth cert as she was born on the Wirral which is an interesting twist in my 3 x Great Grandfather's story. I wasn't aware that he had lived anywhere other than Liverpool once he left Ireland.
The lady who contacted me also has Susan born on the Wirral, Birkenhead but Mary born in Prescott/Ormskirk which seems to be backed up by this travel document to Australia, which is where they all settled but I'm curious as to why Mary's birth happened in an area so far unrelated to James Gallaghan's life story as I know it so far.
Let's see what Catherine's Cert says first before I spend any more money :-)
The youngest child, Rose on the 1861 census, is my 2xGreat Grandmother, I have everything on her.
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Is it Preston Lancs rather than Prestcott for Mary's birth?
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Is it Preston Lancs rather than Prestcott for Mary's birth?
I have seen Prescott, Preston and Ormskirk on various tree/records so keeping an open mind.
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Ok, interesting development!
Can anyone read which town Bally.....? the Grandfather of the 3 girls was from. I think it's in Cavan, Ireland. The ship record is Ennis, County Clare though, I'm confused as this isn't a Harbour town???
https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/1204/images/IMAUS1787_081443-0032?pId=372884&backurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancestry.com%2Ffamily-tree%2Fperson%2Ftree%2F114805715%2Fperson%2F332151543073%2Ffacts%2Fcitation%2F962290124835%2Fedit%2Frecord
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Is it Preston Lancs rather than Prestcott for Mary's birth?
I have seen Prescott, Preston and Ormskirk on various tree/records so keeping an open mind.
Just wanted to make the point that the record you had highlighted in red has Preston in it.
I am not doubting that there may/will be differing birthplaces and spellings of those places over the years. In a hierarchy of records I would put a birthplace from an official document, even if you have to look at different spellings/accents to do it, over a birthplace that is on a tree unless this comes from an official document.
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The place that Michael Reilly has on this record is possibly Ballymena, but perhaps spelt Ballimena. The next line is West Sydney.
Do you know which records-set this record is from please? Some posters do not maintain access to Ance$try especially if access to the original records is available.
There is a Ballymena in Co Antrim.
There is also a Bellarena in Co Londonderry
Here is a link to the Townlands in Co Cavan.
https://www.townlands.ie/cavan/
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Is it Preston Lancs rather than Prestcott for Mary's birth?
I have seen Prescott, Preston and Ormskirk on various tree/records so keeping an open mind.
Just wanted to make the point that the record you had highlighted in red has Preston in it.
I am not doubting that there may/will be differing birthplaces and spellings of those places over the years. In a hierarchy of records I would put a birthplace from an official document, even if you have to look at different spellings/accents to do it, over a birthplace that is on a tree unless this comes from an official document.
I found a birth record on GRO which fits Mary and the registry office is Ormskirk. I have ordered this so will soon have the home address.
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The place that Michael Reilly has on this record is possibly Ballymena, but perhaps spelt Ballimena. The next line is West Sydney.
Do you know which records-set this record is from please? Some posters do not maintain access to Ance$try especially if access to the original records is available.
There is a Ballymena in Co Antrim.
There is also a Bellarena in Co Londonderry
Here is a link to the Townlands in Co Cavan.
https://www.townlands.ie/cavan/
There are two records for the 3 girls travelling on the "Africana" the first document was New South Wales, Australia, Assisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1828-1896 and the second was the list of Immigrants as inspected by the Immigration Board 1866.
The corresponding record/transcribe on Ancestry for the first document mentioned above is confusing me, it states the location origin as Ennis County Clare. Is this referring to passenger or ship?! Ennis is not a port? See attachment.
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Looking at the passage records for all the girls is throwing up some interesting results
New South Wales, Australia, Immigration Deposit Journals, 1853-1900 for Mary Galligan. Does this say that Grand Dad paid the deposit via the Roman Catholic clergy?
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And the last from me for now, this is the same passage yet the origin has now Monaghan?!