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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: LaytonLily on Saturday 18 July 20 15:19 BST (UK)

Title: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Saturday 18 July 20 15:19 BST (UK)
I hope someone can help me identify if the James Arthur Fisher aged 25yrs in 1917 who was taken to court for wearing a Grenadier Guards uniform that he didn't qualify for, is my relative.   I have found army papers on Ancestry showing he enlisted in 1913, showing as 3rd Dragoon Guards of the Line No. 8316.  His next of kin given as Beatrice Fisher his sister.   (He was born 1891 and his parents were James Arthur and Charlotte Fisher.)

In the newspaper articles James Arthur Fisher in Birmingham Court says he was a commissioned officer, Captain in 14th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment.  It also says his wife is residing in Conway where he was previous to coming to Birmingham, where all his family live.

How can I verify if they are one and the same man ? 
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: Christine53 on Saturday 18 July 20 16:18 BST (UK)
There is a medal card for Captain James Arthur Fisher , Royal Warwickshire Regiment. The card has an additional note " see James Annesley Fisher ". James Annesley Fisher married Mary Trevitt 16 Nov 1915 at Toxteth Park St Andrew. His occupation is given  as Captain Royal Warwickshires.  He is also listed in the Pension cards index as Captain James Arthur Annesley Fisher. He appears to be a different person from James Arthur Fisher , Dragoon Guards.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Saturday 18 July 20 16:46 BST (UK)
Did you see the marriage certificate for the marriage details ?  did it gives his father as James Arthur Fisher, butcher (or was silversmith on one census like his father).  Somehow it doesn't sound like either my JAF or the one in the newspaper.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 18 July 20 18:49 BST (UK)
A court report in the Birmingham Daily Gazette of 31 January 1917 records that Fisher said he had been a private in the 6th Dragoon Guards and had bought himself out on the eve of war. That does tally with James Arthur Fisher 8316 (in the 6th from 14/10/1913).
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Saturday 18 July 20 19:11 BST (UK)
Thanks for your reply.   I have all that information but does JAF in the Court case / newspaper articles
saying he was a private in the 6th Dragoon Guards  tally with my ancestor's army papers saying he was in the 3rd Dragoon Guards of the Line No. 8316.?   What regiment would either of them be ?

The JAF in the newspaper article also says he was a commissioned officer, Captain in 14th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment.   
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 18 July 20 19:43 BST (UK)
I don’t know if this is same person - have you seen this article ?

Here’s a snippet from Evening Despatch 05 April 1940

James Arthur Fisher of no fixed address was charged with presenting himself to be a member of His Majesty’s forces wearing the uniform of a captain of the Royal Horse Guards.

When arrested admitted he was not entitled to wear the uniform he says in his statement he served in last war and retired in 1918 with the rank of captain......

He went to Kenya and invested in a coffee plantation returning to England four years ago........

Superintendent gave Fisher’s record which included a conviction at Birmingham for falsely wearing the uniform of an Army captain some years ago.

Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Saturday 18 July 20 19:54 BST (UK)
Ladyhawk  -  I am just typing up that very article !   He was caught out twice in both wars  - he was very persistent !

I think there is a high probability the chap in the newspaper articles is my James Arthur Fisher but need  something to clinch it.  There are army documents on Ancestry I can see for him but do not have membership at this time.    If it proves he is one and the same, I will be wanting to do research on that time in Kenya next on the coffee plantation.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: CraigM63 on Saturday 18 July 20 20:38 BST (UK)
The medal index card for James Annesley Fisher states that he was a captain in the R. War. R., which I presume is the Royal Warwickshire Regiment. It also has annotation to say 'See James Arthur Fisher'. James Annesley Fisher's address at the time he applied for his medals in September 1919 is given as 55 Park Street, Mayfair W.

James Arthur Fisher's medal index card repeats the information that he was a captain in the Royal Warwickshire Regiment, but this time his address is given as 67 Pershore Road, Edgebaston, Birmingham. In this case, his first entry to a theatre of war was in France on 7 July 1917.

Can you tie either of these addresses to your James Arthur Fisher?
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Saturday 18 July 20 20:43 BST (UK)
CraigM63    -  no I do not believe that is 'my' James Arthur Fisher.   But then it doesn't seem to tie up with the chap in the newspaper either.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: CraigM63 on Saturday 18 July 20 21:13 BST (UK)
The father of the James Annesley Fisher who married Mary Trevitt on 16 November 1915 was also James Annesley Fisher, deceased. So definitely not looking like a match for your James Arthur Fisher.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Sunday 19 July 20 08:57 BST (UK)
CraigM63     -  No it didn't feel to me as if he was and thanks for that confirmation.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 19 July 20 09:31 BST (UK)
Quote
I have all that information but does JAF in the Court case / newspaper articles
saying he was a private in the 6th Dragoon Guards  tally with my ancestor's army papers saying he was in the 3rd Dragoon Guards of the Line No. 8316

As I said, that does tally with your James Arthur Fisher 8316 (who was in the 6th from 14/10/1913).
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: Christine53 on Sunday 19 July 20 13:36 BST (UK)
James Arthur Fisher , 3rd/6th Dragoon Guards , gives his intended address as Fulford Hall , Birmingham on his discharge papers. That is the address given by Captain James Annesley Fisher upon his marriage to Mary Trevitt. The couple had a child , Mary Annesley Fisher  , in 1916 and again gave their address as Fulford Hall. Interestingly on the baptism James Annesley Fisher gave his occupation as Captain 6th Dragoon Guards.

From Lancashire Evening Post 25 Feb 1921:

Mary Fisher divorced her husband in February 1921 for desertion and adultery. The news report mentions that " he failed to provide a home and deceived her as to his financial and army position" He had been living with another women at the Waldorf Hotel in London during the previous July.

Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 19 July 20 13:49 BST (UK)
All interesting stuff! Just to add to the mix, Captain James Annesley Fisher was attached to the RAF for most of 1918 and gave his next of kin as his mother Mrs J G ( or T G) Taylor, Canford Chine, Canford Cliffs, Bournemouth. No mention of his wife. He went back to the Royal Warwickshire Regiment depot in September 1918.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fair76%2f162%2f0%2f0165&parentid=gbm%2fair76%2f29324
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: CraigM63 on Sunday 19 July 20 15:33 BST (UK)
If you don't have a FindMyPast subscription James Ansley Fisher's RAF service record is also available as a free download from the National Archives at the moment. You'll need to register, but you won't be charged to download the file.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8259969 (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8259969)

It looks as though he tried to join the RAF Volunteer Reserve in August 1940 going by an annotation on the first page. The address given appears to be 76 Cromwell Road, London SW7.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: Christine53 on Sunday 19 July 20 15:50 BST (UK)
Yorkshire Evening Post 13 Jan 1947

FISHER - MARKLEW

December 27th 1946 at Nairobi by Special Licence , Sq/Ldr James Arthur Annesley Fisher of Kitale, Kenya , son of the late Major J A A Fisher , 10th Hussars , to Gertrude Ellen , widow of the late Albert Marklew of Johannesburg .....

 ???

Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 19 July 20 16:00 BST (UK)
Commissioned as a Pilot Officer in December 1940:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35019/page/7130
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: CraigM63 on Sunday 19 July 20 16:01 BST (UK)
Commissioned as a Pilot Officer on probation in the Administrative and Special Duties branch on 22 November 1940, according to the London Gazette.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35019/page/7130/data.pdf (https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35019/page/7130/data.pdf)
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Sunday 19 July 20 19:50 BST (UK)
Oh No !!!!   Getting to be too much !   Just when i thought I had it secured with ShaunJ's comments about the 6th and I can see on my JAF enlistment papers he went from 3rd to 6th Dragoon Guards - though didn't know if that was the Warwickshire Regiment as stated in newspaper.

Annesley is certainly a recognisable name when searching but it doesn't seem to help here !  Perhaps he was leading a double life.     | am getting less convinced they are the same person, not more.

it says in newspaper articles  about JAF  he was from 'a member of a well known Birmingham family' and although I would not have thought that fitted 'my' JAF, his father certainly owned land and property in Birmingham and left over £12,000 in his Will in 1910, so I thought it might fit. 

But I don't think the chap commissioned as a Pilot Officer in 1940 is the same as the JAF in the newspaper as he was in court   -  again   -  charged with  wearing the uniform of an officer in the Royal Horse Guards falsely in 1940.

Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 20 July 20 10:52 BST (UK)
Quote
he went from 3rd to 6th Dragoon Guards - though didn't know if that was the Warwickshire Regiment

The 6th Dragoon Guards was the regiment that he bought himself out of in 1914. They were known as The Carabiniers. The army file has some 1914 correspondence about him being found in possession of a Carabiniers uniform when the record showed that he had attested for the 3rd Dragoon Guards - but it was confirmed that he had in fact transferred to the Carabiniers (6th Dragoon Guards).
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 20 July 20 16:32 BST (UK)
Quote
But I don't think the chap commissioned as a Pilot Officer in 1940 is the same as the JAF in the newspaper as he was in court   -  again   -  charged with  wearing the uniform of an officer in the Royal Horse Guards falsely in 1940.

The 1940 court case was on 5 April. His 3 months imprisonment would have been up by early July. Captain J A Fisher's WW1 RAF Record has a note that he had applied to join the RAFVR, dated 20 August 1940. J A Fisher 88308 was commissioned in December 1940. It is possible that it's the same man.

The Gazette records that F/O J A Fisher 88308 was to resign his RAF commission wef 12 May 1943 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36027/supplement/2327
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 20 July 20 16:50 BST (UK)
I just noticed that the CO of 6th Dragoon Guards, who signed James Arthur Fisher's discharge papers in July 1914, was Lt Colonel J Annesley.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 20 July 20 17:26 BST (UK)
Police Gazette, 8 January 1926

"APPREHENSIONS SOUGHT. METROPOLITAN POLICE DISTRICT— D Division.— For obtaining £ 50 by worthless cheque.— James Arthur Fisher, aliases Major J. A. Fisher, Capt. C. K. Fisher, Capt. G. L. Wylie, Capt. George Fennick, Captain C. K. Fisher- Rowe, Capt. George Renwick and Captain Anderson, CRO No. 2931-17, b. 1892, 6ft, c. fresh, h. lt brown, e. blue, small lt brown moustache; dress, lt grey suit, white double collar, white shirt, green striped tie, lt trilby hat, dk overcoat, boots. Very smart military appearance. Pre con of a minor offence at Birmingham. Made acquaintance of loser, said he would take loser's son back with him to Nairobi where he had property and teach him coffee farming free of charge. On 29th ult. asked loser to change a cheque which was written on private paper for £50 on the Chartered Bank of India, 38  Bishopsgate EC which he did. Cheque subsequently returned marked " No account." Warrant issued. Inf. to CRO. Wednesday, January 6, 1926
LATER INFORMATION — Remanded at Leeds  P. Sess. till 14th inst, charged with forgery. Resided with a woman friend, obtained possession of her Post Office Savings book, forged signature and withdrew her money"

There are various newspaper reports of the subsequent trial (see for instance the Yorkshire Evening Post of 27 January 1926, page 8 "Dishonoured cheques of a Planter"). He got 4 months.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: CraigM63 on Monday 20 July 20 17:48 BST (UK)
Confirmation of his appointment as a Pilot Officer, with promotion to the war substantive rank of Flying Officer with effect from 22 November 1941 was posted on 22 October 1941 in the London Gazette.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35498/supplement/1338 (https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35498/supplement/1338)

One wonders where the rank of Squadron Leader mentioned in the report on his 1946 marriage in Kenya came from. Although given his apparent track record, perhaps not too surprising. 
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Monday 20 July 20 18:01 BST (UK)
Oh my !   So are we talking about one and same man here or 2 or 3 or are any of them 'my' James Arthur Fisher, or all of them !   Not just leading a double life but many lives.   Haven't been able to keep up with all the information you are finding, but am going to enjoy trying to unpick it !

Perhaps someone has written a book about his exploits ?   Like the grandfather of the actress Ruth Wilson.

Interesting that the description of his features in Police Gazette 8 January 1926 'complexion fresh, hair light brown, eyes blue' corresponds with the description on 'my' JAF army enlistment details .  Now if only it also said 'circular scar on each shin' then I have him !

Now can anyone confirm this is all one man and my JAF or not ?

Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 20 July 20 20:02 BST (UK)
His excuses at the 1917 and 1940 "officer impersonation" trials about being overkeen and getting ahead of himself are very similar to those given by a James Arthur Fisher on trial in Plymouth in 1922 for claiming to be a fully qualified medical doctor and surgeon (Western Morning News 20 May 1922, page 3).
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: CraigM63 on Monday 20 July 20 20:12 BST (UK)
His excuses at the 1917 and 1940 "officer impersonation" trials about being overkeen and getting ahead of himself are very similar to those given by a James Arthur Fisher on trial in Plymouth in 1923 for claiming to be a fully qualified medical doctor (Western Morning News 20 May 1922, page 3).

I saw that one too, although I thought that that James Arthur Fisher's stated age of 28 in 1922 wasn't quite right. There was also a James Arthur Fisher in trouble later that same year for passing a bad cheque, which also sounded like a fit. You could write a best selling novel about this James Arthur Fisher, his life has all the ingredients.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Monday 20 July 20 20:26 BST (UK)
Certainly sounds as if there is a book in there  -  and it sounds as if this is going to run and run.
What have I started !   Thank you so much to everyone for all your contributions - if there is more, keep them coming !    I have copied all the various entries into one document to try and make sense of it, and see where / if my JAF fits in, and follow up the links you have posted.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Monday 20 July 20 20:59 BST (UK)
I have membership of the British Newspaper Archive website but am not finding the various postings people have made about newspaper articles found.  Though I have found an entry for 'Dishonoured cheques of a planter'.    You just feel there is so much more out there to find !
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: CraigM63 on Monday 20 July 20 21:36 BST (UK)
I just searched on James Arthur Fisher, and then limited the results to specific decades, 1910-1919, 1920-1929, and then again for 1940-1949, although you can also limit it to specific years, i.e. 1917, 1922, and 1940 for sure. His misdemeanours were fairly widely reported, so you'll find the same incident cropping up in multiple newspapers at the same time. Unfortunately I don't have a subscription to the British Newspaper Archive so can't go beyond looking at what comes up in searches. It seems to go quiet in the 1930's, so perhaps this is related to his sojourn in Kenya if the reports are to be believed.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Tuesday 21 July 20 11:11 BST (UK)
(Negotiating this pesky problem of continual message telling me Roots.chat is unsafe - grrrrr !)
So CraigM63  -  do you mean you just put James Arthur Fisher and  say 1920 - 1929 into a Google or bing search to find any information ?  Or do you mean into Ancestry ?  Or do you have access to a different newspaper website ?    I have done as you suggest in British Newspaper Archive website but it didn't provide me with anything.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 21 July 20 11:20 BST (UK)
Are you using exact search for the exact  phrase in Advanced Search?
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Tuesday 21 July 20 11:38 BST (UK)
I have found a couple now putting "James Arthur Fisher" in search then going through the different time periods. (British Newspaper Archive website)

But can I say that the JAF in the first lot of newspaper articles from 1917 and 1940  is 'my' James Arthur Fisher ?

And what is people's opinion on the James Arthur Annesley Fisher chap who was so notorious in his behaviour - same person ?   

There has been nothing really to clinch it for me.  Even when he marries and gives his father's name, it is not the father of 'my' JAF.   

Any suggestions as to how I use all the information supplied by folks on here to get to a final answer ?
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 21 July 20 12:03 BST (UK)
Have a look at the signatures on the marriage register, the 1913 attestation, and the 1914 discharge.

There will be more in the divorce papers at TNA
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Tuesday 21 July 20 12:22 BST (UK)
ShaunJ  -   many thanks.   That writing /  signatures certainly look the same. I haven't had  chance to look into everything supplied to me on here  - it has all been coming so fast and furious!    -    but  I will over next few days.    I feel there must be so much more out there to fill out this tale of JAF,  it is just finding it!   
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: Crumblie on Tuesday 21 July 20 12:23 BST (UK)
I would be very surprised if the person who had so much court trouble was the same person who joined the RAF in WW2 and was an officer. Even if the RAF was very short of people I would think they would be loath to take anyone with a history of fraud, in fact for the officers in all 3 services such a person would be treated as a pariah.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 21 July 20 12:33 BST (UK)
Have we had the daughter's baptism?

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2196&h=4057443

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=PRS%2FLIVERPOOL%2FBAP%2F1040223
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Wednesday 22 July 20 09:03 BST (UK)
ShaunJ - I cannot access the two links you provide.  Why do you think having the baptism of the child will help ?

Christine53 - how did you manage to find the details on the daughter born to JAF and Mary Trevitt ? Was that just looking at births for the period they were married ?   I could send for the birth certificate but it looks as if you found the details anyway.

Do you think in all probability if not in 100% confirmation, that this James Annesley Fisher is the same person as the James Arthur Fisher in my family ?    Seems it is difficult to get 100% confirmation as he seems to live in a world of lies and deception.

If there were military papers for James Annesley Fisher and a description of his features / distinguishing marks and it said 'Circular scar on each shin' that would clinch they were one and the same.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: Christine53 on Wednesday 22 July 20 09:24 BST (UK)


Christine53 - how did you manage to find the details on the daughter born to JAF and Mary Trevitt ? Was that just looking at births for the period they were married ?   I could send for the birth certificate but it looks as if you found the details anyway.



Images of the baptism register are on ancestry :

Mary Annesley Fisher born 20 Aug 1916
baptised 14 Sep 1916 at Toxteth Park, St Andrew
father  James Annesley Fisher , Captain 6th Dragoon Guards
mother Mary
of Fulford Hall Earlswood Warwickshire

Edit : as for how I just searched for any instances of " Annesley Fisher" to see what jumped out.
It's always worth searching from all angles. Any small details may help in establishing where someone was at a particular time. As I mentioned in an earlier post in this case the address given matches that of James Arthur Fisher , Private 3rd Dragoons ,  stated on his discharge papers.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 22 July 20 09:36 BST (UK)
Quote
As I mentioned in an earlier post in this case the address given matches that of James Arthur Fisher , Private 3rd Dragoons ,  stated on his discharge papers.

Similar signatures, same address, I think it is clear that Private James Arthur Fisher and Captain James Annesley Fisher are one and the same person.

If you are interested in trying to trace his granddaughter born 1953 (and possibly still living) I can provide details of daughter Mary's marriage, death and probate.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Wednesday 22 July 20 09:59 BST (UK)
Christine53  - many thanks.

Shaun  -  oh yes please !
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 22 July 20 10:24 BST (UK)
"The engagement is announced between John Ralph Briggs , son of Mr and Mrs J. Ingham Briggs, of  "Westwold", Blundellsands, Liverpool, and Mary Annesley Fisher only daughter of Mrs Mary Fisher , formerly of Aros, Isle of Mull, and now of Southport" (The Times and The Scotsman, 2 September 1948)

The marriage took place in Southport RD in 3Q 1949.

John Ralph Briggs died in 1975. Mary Annesley Briggs died in a nursing home in Woking on 17 July 1883. A death notice in The Times of 23 July 1983 names her daughter and two grandchildren. Will PM you the details.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Wednesday 22 July 20 11:41 BST (UK)
ShaunJ   -  Many thanks for all information sent.    All the research experts, with all the resources and money manage to track down living relatives in the programme 'Long Lost Family' but doubtful if I can manage it !

Now at the risk of asking too much, you wouldn't be able to find James Arthur Annesley Fisher's death entry would you?   Of course, who knows what he was calling himself by the time of his death.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 22 July 20 16:44 BST (UK)
"Fisher J A" listed as a juror in Kyambu District, Kikuyu Province, Kenya in April 1925: https://tinyurl.com/y6lx29mk

Also apparently listed in Kikuyu in the East African Red Books for 1922 and 1925:
http://www.europeansineastafrica.co.uk/_site/custom/database/default.asp?a=viewIndividual&pid=2&person=11856
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Wednesday 22 July 20 17:20 BST (UK)
I saw that entry on the East African website but there wasn't enough to prove it was him  -  I need a lot of convincing over FH findings !

It would be quite something if I did manage to make contact with one his descendants !

Do you know the tale about his younger brother, Francis (Frankie) Henry Bayliss Fisher, which people on this website helped me work out ?  There was a family tale from my father that his Aunt Charlotte Fisher had a son with someone other than her husband, who went into an institution, then as an adult, went into the Army and rose to Captain.   Well there was a small grain of truth in that tale !  I have typed up the findings, which if you were interested I would send but via e-mail.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 22 July 20 19:38 BST (UK)
No I hadn't read about Frankie Henry Bayliss Fisher but I see that Charlotte's later life  remains a bit of a mystery.

I think it may be important to follow this up:
Quote
Captain James Annesley Fisher was attached to the RAF for most of 1918 and gave his next of kin as his mother Mrs J G ( or T G) Taylor, Canford Chine, Canford Cliffs, Bournemouth.

Canford Chine is a house on Ravine Road, between Poole and Bournemouth. The 1918 and 1919 electoral rolls list only a Josephine Margaret Taylor at that address.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Wednesday 22 July 20 20:22 BST (UK)
I was thinking of looking for the birth certificate for a James Annesley Fisher  -  just in  there is one!   I found James Annesley Fisher's name on  Website of the Royal Flying Corp but it didn't give his rank or a date, which it did for most others.

My JAF's mother of course was Charlotte.    So if he gives a Mrs Taylor as his mother how do I go about looking into that?    I think it sounds as if he says just  whatever he decides at any particular time !
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 22 July 20 20:31 BST (UK)
I think this may be the Josephine Margaret Taylor (Mrs T G Taylor). Husband Thomas George Taylor was an army officer. Not JAF's mother but perhaps a paramour.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWNC-WF7
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: MaxD on Wednesday 22 July 20 21:00 BST (UK)
James Annesley Fisher's RAF record (the one with his mother in Canford Cliffs) has his rank as Captain.  It also has a note that he was [previously] a Capt in 11 Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment.  It also says he had applied in August 1940 to join the RAFVR (from an address in Cromwell Road London) which cross checks with that name being granted a commission in the RAFVR effective 22 Nov 1940 (London Gazette).
 
There are WW1 medal cards for a James Arthur and a James Annesley both in  the Warwickshire Regiment, both captains with each card having the other name on it.  (JA Fisher Warwicks appointed 2/Lt 1 Oct 1914 - Captain 29 Mar 1916 - London Gazette)   The detail on both is identical, only one set of medals was issued, and there is just one entry in the Warwick's medal roll as JA Fisher.
Not sure whether this duplicates stuff you have already?

MaxD

MaxD
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 22 July 20 21:45 BST (UK)
Hi Max, the Gazette information you have found on the 1914 commission and 1916 promotion to Captain is new info for us, and fills a gap in the narrative.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: CraigM63 on Wednesday 22 July 20 23:27 BST (UK)
I think this may be the Josephine Margaret Taylor (Mrs T G Taylor). Husband Thomas George Taylor was an army officer.

Thomas George Taylor was a Lieutenant in the Gordon Highlanders in the 1911 Census, and presumably a fairly well-heeled one at that given that, apart from Josephine, the other seven members of the household were all domestic staff.

According to the census Thomas and Josephine had been married for less than a year, so either earlier in 1911, or in 1910. There is also a death registration for a Josephine Margaret Taylor in the first quarter of 1982 in Westminster, London, birth date is given as 1 April 1884. A death notice was published in The Times on 7 January 1982, death was on 5 January 1982.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: CraigM63 on Wednesday 22 July 20 23:30 BST (UK)
According to the 1911 Census, Josephine was born in Midlothian, Scotland, so running with the 1884 birth year, a quick search on ScotlandsPeople brings up only one possible candidate, Josephine Margaret Lang, who's birth was registered in St Giles, Midlothian.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: CraigM63 on Wednesday 22 July 20 23:35 BST (UK)
And again, a search on ScotlandsPeople finds a marriage for Josephine Margaret Lang and Thomas George Taylor in Selkirk in 1910.

But what is the connection with James Arthur Annesley Fisher? There are family trees on Ancestry for this branch of the Taylor family.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: CraigM63 on Thursday 23 July 20 00:50 BST (UK)
I was thinking of looking for the birth certificate for a James Annesley Fisher  -  just in  there is one!   

A search of the GRO Indexes shows no births for a James Annesley Fisher between the years 1888 to 1919. There is a birth registered for a James Arthur Fisher in the June quarter of 1891, in Kings Norton, mother's maiden name is Hunt, so 'our' James Arthur Fisher.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: CraigM63 on Thursday 23 July 20 02:52 BST (UK)
Thomas George Taylor, if we have the right man, looks as though he served with the Gordon Highlanders for the duration of WW1. His medal index card suggests he first went to France on 8 July 1915, and by the end of the war he was a Lieutenant Colonel with the DSO.His officer's service record is on Fold3, with an enlistment year of 1905, and a marriage date of 21 July 1910, I can't see any more than that as I do not have a Fold3 subscription.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Thursday 23 July 20 08:34 BST (UK)
So much more info to absorb !   I too couldn't find a James Annesley Fisher for those date.  It was obviously officially recognised he went by both names, or sometimes all of them - James Arthur Annesley Fisher  -  but why ?    Using Annesley as a middle name certainly sets him apart from all the other men named James Arthur Fisher, so he wanted to be noticed !

On his marriage in 1915 he gives his father as James Annesley Fisher Decd then on 1946 marriage as Major J A A Fisher Decd (interesting they are both Decd  - and probably fictitious) who supposedly was in the 10th Hussars !  and interesting that J A A  - James Arthur Annesley  perhaps!

The parents of my  JAF of course were Charlotte (Hunt) and James Arthur Fisher, butcher.  Charlotte left the marriage around 1901, I think his father died in 1911 - I have sent for his death cert.

MaxD  - thank you for that info and explanation, very helpful.   I am coming to the conclusion this is all about the same man and about my relative -  I would like to see a dob though somewhere on documents to clinch it.   I believe my JAF was born 17/2/1891.    Mind, he is just as likely to change that to suit him !

Who knows why he gave Mrs Taylor living in Bournmouth as his mother and next of kin in 1918.   In 1913 in his army papers he gives as his next of kin as his sister Beatrice, which is correct - she is his older sister, his mother gone off and his father likely dead.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 23 July 20 11:03 BST (UK)
Quote
I believe my JAF was born 17/2/1891

That's interesting. The Ministry of Defence holds records for a JA Fisher born 17 February 1898. Perhaps he lied about his age when joining the RAFVR in 1940:


A453868/42 FISHER JA      1898-02-17
A133253/40 FISHER JA      1898-02-17
A311646/41 FISHER JA       1898-02-17
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 23 July 20 11:07 BST (UK)
Albert Marklew's marriage to Gertrude Ellen Stansfield, Transvaal, 1938:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9T7T-QHGN?i=23&wc=MCMX-B2H%3A44975801%2C52325201%2C54814501%2C48259601&cc=1468076
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Thursday 23 July 20 11:31 BST (UK)
ShaunJ -  anything is possible with this blaggard !     I have the actual date in my aunt's birthday book, she was a member of the Hunt / Aston family.   His baptism was in 1894, doesn't give actual date of birth (none given for any of the children) but was done along with his older sister Beatrice.   So what you have found is interesting.  Now does the day and month at least correspond to someone with the name James Annesley Fisher ?!

What period of time do you think he was in Kenya ?   I have tired looking for any information on coffee plantations in Kenya etc but nothing has come from it.

I am copying into a Word document all entries people have so kindly made on here in answer to my original question and working through putting it all into some sort of date order and timeline and comparing entries for James Arthur Fisher and James Annesley Fisher.

You have  managed to answer my original question I think - 'Was James Arthur Fisher a Captain '? -
and provided so much more than I ever imagined !
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 23 July 20 11:37 BST (UK)
Quote
What period of time do you think he was in Kenya ?   I have tired looking for any information on coffee plantations in Kenya etc but nothing has come from it.

I haven't found him on any passenger lists (yet) but I did find Gertrude Ellen Fisher visiting the UK from Kenya in 1953 and 1956.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: Mckha489 on Thursday 23 July 20 11:47 BST (UK)
Possibly here

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=TNA%2FBT27%2F1026%2F00%2F0007%2FP%2F0005F&parentid=TNA%2FBT27%2F1026000007%2F00150

captain J.A. Fisher coffee planter. Address in UK 21 Leinster Gdns, Lancaster Gate  W.2.  Age 29
Travelling From Cape Town. Per “Briton” departure 5 Jan 1923
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: Mckha489 on Thursday 23 July 20 11:56 BST (UK)
James Arthur Fisher
Arrival Age:   35
Birth Date:   abt 1893
Port of Departure:   Durban, South Africa
Arrival Date:   17 Sep 1928
Port of Arrival:   Southampton, England
Ports of Voyage:   Algoa Bay [Port Elizabeth]; Cape Town; Madeira; East London
Ship Name:   Saxon Castle


Occ Planter
Address in UK. Cottrell & sons, 10 Easy Row, B’ham
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 23 July 20 12:03 BST (UK)
Quote
Address in UK. Cottrell & sons, 10 Easy Row, B’ham

The address given for Beatrice in 1913 was similar:
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Thursday 23 July 20 12:10 BST (UK)
Mckha489  -  thank you  - and thank you for giving the details as I do not have access to Findmypast website.   It confirms what was said in the newspaper reports in 1940.

ShaunJ  -  Now did it say Widow at all for Gertrude Ellen Fisher?!   

He is listed as a being present in Kyambu District, Kenya in 1922, listed a a jurer there  in 1925.
Which way was a he travelling in 1923 ?

Then in 1926 a court case in England where he was given 4 months imprisonment.  Interesting these aliases are listed in Police Gazette :   (Provided already here)

APPREHENSIONS SOUGHT. METROPOLITAN POLICE DISTRICT
 For obtaining  £ 50 by worthless cheque.—
James Arthur Fisher,    Aliases:   Major J. A. Fisher, Capt. C. K. Fisher,
Capt. G. L. Wylie, Capt. George Fennick, Captain C. K. Fisher- Rowe, Capt. George Renwick and Captain Anderson, CRO No. 2931-17.

But no mention of James Annesley Fisher.


Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: Mckha489 on Thursday 23 July 20 12:24 BST (UK)
Quote
Travelling From Cape Town. Per “Briton” departure 5 Jan 1923

Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: Mckha489 on Thursday 23 July 20 12:27 BST (UK)
I don’t know about this one.
The original is blurry. major J. a. And Mrs Belle Fisher?
Departure, Durban, South Africa
Arrival Date:   7 Jun 1920
Port of Arrival:   Southampton, England

Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Thursday 23 July 20 13:08 BST (UK)
I am now asking, was he ever a Major ?    Or is that just another of his ideas of grandeur ?

I would like to get the marriage cert. or details from cert, for the marriage of his daughter Mary Annersely Fisher in 1949 to see what is put for her father !
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 23 July 20 13:10 BST (UK)
Quote
ShaunJ  -  Now did it say Widow at all for Gertrude Ellen Fisher?


In 1953 she is a housewife aged 57, had been living in Kenya, intending to stay in England permanently. In First Class.

In 1957 (not 1956 as I said earlier) she is "single widowed or divorced" born 13 November 1895, an artist, in First Class. Intending to stay in UK for 12 months.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: CraigM63 on Thursday 23 July 20 13:24 BST (UK)
I believe my JAF was born 17/2/1891.

If this is his birth date then his parents left it very late to register his birth, as the GRO indexes show his birth was registered in the June quarter of 1891, i.e. sometime between 1 April and 30 June, 1891. From 18 February to 31 March is 42 days, which is the legal limit for registering a birth in England following birth. 
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Thursday 23 July 20 13:38 BST (UK)
ShaunJ  -  Those details about Gertrude are very interesting.

CraigM63  -  JAF's birth was registered in 1891 Kings Norton.   It was his baptism in 1894, along with sister Beatrice.  Not so unusual to have baptism some years after the birth.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: CraigM63 on Thursday 23 July 20 13:49 BST (UK)
I know that, but the registration of the birth is a legal requirement that is quite separate from baptism. Legally all births in England must be registered within 42 days of birth with the GRO. Baptism can occur at any point after birth, and I have cases in my own trees where baptism took place 10 years after birth. The fact that his birth was registered with the GRO in the June quarter of 1891, when he was born on 17 February 1891 means that his birth was registered outside of the legally required 42 day period. 
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: MaxD on Thursday 23 July 20 14:23 BST (UK)
I am now asking, was he ever a Major ?    Or is that just another of his ideas of grandeur ?

No -  https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31563/page/11788 relinquished his commission September 1919.

MaxD
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Thursday 23 July 20 15:10 BST (UK)
MaxD  -  What was the military career of James Arthur Fisher / James Arthur Annesley Fisher ?

I am thinking he joined the regular army in 1913 ?    Prior to the start of WW1.   
First he was in the 3rd Dragoon Guards (Warwickshire ?), transferred to 6th Dragoon Guards.

Then what ?   

Records to show where he fought overseas ?     

Was he still in regular army during WW1 ?

When he relinquished his commission in 1919 he was able to still use the title Captain ?

Records to show the damage to his health received while on active service ?

When he married in 1915 he gave his occupation as Captain in Royal Warwickshire.  When his wife divorced him in 1921 one of the reasons was that he had deceived her about his army position.
So what do you think that deception was if he was a Captain ?   (I must see if I can get the divorce papers !)
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 23 July 20 15:30 BST (UK)
Did you find the TNA catalogue entry for the divorce papers? https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8025778
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Thursday 23 July 20 15:40 BST (UK)
It says it has not been digitised so cannot be downloaded and can only be viewed by going into Kew - which is not going to be possible  for me !
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 23 July 20 15:49 BST (UK)
You could post a request for anyone going to TNA to take a look at the divorce papers for you (they would need to order in advance). In normal times you could request a quote for a copy to be sent to you but that link doesn't seem to work at the moment.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Thursday 23 July 20 19:10 BST (UK)
Seems rather an imposition to ask someone to do that, at this time anyway.     Once we are back normal (!) I might ask how much to obtain a copy from NA.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: MaxD on Thursday 23 July 20 20:43 BST (UK)
You already have almost all of the answers to your queries already but a review never hurts and I’ve been able to add a couple of things.

I am thinking he joined the regular army in 1913 ?    Prior to the start of WW1.   
First he was in the 3rd Dragoon Guards (Warwickshire ?), transferred to 6th Dragoon Guards.


Discharge cert dated 27 July 1914, records discharge by purchase from 6th Dragoon Guards for 8316 James Arthur Fisher, age given as 22 years 4 months (on discharge).  Had elected in Sep 1913 , giving his age as 21 yrs 6 months, to serve with 3rd Dragoons stating previous service with Worcestershire Yeomanry, purchased discharge in May 1913 (WY was a territorial unit not regular army).  The units shown on the record are the Western Cavalry Depot (where he would have trained) followed by 6th Dragoon Guards in Dec 1913.  Not unusual for a man to not join the one he enlisted for.  The Western Cavalry Depot was at Newport and trained men for a number of cavalry regiments including 3rd and 6th Dragoon Guards. Should be understood that he began at the Cavalry Depot as a member of 3rd DG but he was not stationed with them, he was being trained, similarly he was still at the Depot when he transferred regiments, he didn’t get to 3rd DG at all or to the 6th DG at Canterbury until Dec 1913.  His service in the WY is attested to by the Commanding Officer of the WY (one of 3 referees).  His transfer from 3rd to 6th DG is documented as taking place on 14 Oct 1913 while at the Cavalry Depot.  He served only in UK.
This record appears totally straightforward.

Records to show where he fought overseas ?     

Was he still in regular army during WW1 ?

Commissioning in Oct 1914 suggest he joined to become an officer almost from the outset, his medal record only has his officer rank.
Overseas service in the Great War is covered on the medal card(s) in the two names, treated as one by the award roll, recording the British War and Victory medals for which he had to serve overseas in a war theatre..   There should be a set of papers comprising his officer file at the National Archives but no sign.  There are London Gazette entries for what would be his commissioning in the Warwickshire Regiment as 2/Lt in Oct 1914 (to 14th Battalion R Warwickshires), his promotion to Capt in Mar 1916 (I probably missed the intervening promotion to Lt) and relinquishing his commission in Sept 1919.

The RAF record has him as Captain in 11 Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment.  He had been assessed as fit for pilot training on 26 Nov 1917. He was not in the RAF,  he was trying to get in but didn’t and went back to the Warwickshires after 8 months.
The Royal Flying Corps database that you have seen leads to the RAF record already seen.  Its title is misleading in that he wasn’t in the RFC but, as said, still in the Warwickshires.
Finding his service before he went overseas on 3 July 1917 would be a task too far and names even of officers are thin on the ground.  However, the war diary of 11 Battalion mentions him on 27 July 1917 taking over command of B Company in France.

When he relinquished his commission in 1919 he was able to still use the title Captain ?
Yes, that is documented in the 1919 LG entry.

Records to show the damage to his health received while on active service ?
There is a pension record already mentioned in the name of James Arthur Annesley Fisher but it is on Fold 3 on Ancestry, I do not have access – this could be the father??  Otherwise none.

When he married in 1915 he gave his occupation as Captain in Royal Warwickshire.  When his wife divorced him in 1921 one of the reasons was that he had deceived her about his army position.
So what do you think that deception was if he was a Captain ?   (I must see if I can get the divorce papers !)

He wasn’t promoted Captain until March 1916.  However, in the London Gazette entry he is shown as (late Temporary Captain) which suggest he may well have been carrying that rank in 1915.  I can’t find an entry in 1915 for him.

Overall, I find nothing out of the ordinary about his military service to the end of the Great War.  His discharge cert from the cavalry describes him as a man of superior education and manners which might explain his ability to make up stories!

MaxD

Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Thursday 23 July 20 22:10 BST (UK)
Well thank you MaxD, that is excellent !   Just what I needed, all explained clearly (for someone who has no military knowledge) and all typed out, so I do not need to do it !   I am very grateful to you for taking the trouble to provide so much information and answering my questions so thoroughly.

But, when you say : 'His discharge cert from the cavalry describes him as a man of superior education and manners . . . . ' where is this document, I need to know, to see it for myself !    Somehow it seems a compensation for what was to come after in his life.   
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Friday 24 July 20 05:39 BST (UK)
Death in Devon, 1965
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: Mckha489 on Friday 24 July 20 05:45 BST (UK)
Well found Shaun, that was dedication! 

What a shame there is no will. It would have been fun to see what he said about himself.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: MaxD on Friday 24 July 20 06:47 BST (UK)
But, when you say : 'His discharge cert from the cavalry describes him as a man of superior education and manners . . . . ' where is this document, I need to know, to see it for myself !    Somehow it seems a compensation for what was to come after in his life.   

The discharge cert is in the pension papers on Ancestry that you mentioned in your very first post.  When you open the documents, they start at image 9685.  If you back track there are more documents, the cert is at 9682, here's a link:
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01pr2/

I should have added a word of explanation to the segment dealing with the 3rd and 6th DG.  His records show he was at Seaforth from 10 Sep 1913 to 4 Nov 1913 and then at Newport until 20 Dec 1913 when he was posted to 6th DG at Canterbury.  Seaforth was Seaforth Barracks on Merseyside which was the cavalry training depot for those regiments (and some others) until the first week of November 1913 when it moved to Newport, hence the two  locations.

MaxD
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Friday 24 July 20 09:30 BST (UK)
ShaunJ  -  I certainly echo the words of Mckha489  - that is amazing to have found his death entry.  Thank you so much.   My sister lives in Devon, I will ask her to go take a look at the address !
Perhaps he lived a peaceful, blame-free life in his later years, in touch with his daughter Mary and her family.   Though there are those years up until 1965 to look into !

I see the time you both made the posts was 5.45 today - was that in Great Britain 5.45am, because that was extreme dedication.  Or was it 5.45 in another country ?
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Friday 24 July 20 09:44 BST (UK)
MaxD  -  Thank you for additional information.  I do like lots of explanation, especially when it is a subject I do not know much about. (military).    I have not been able to see the pension papers on Ancestry , it was his enlistment papers I had looked at but I do not have Ancestry membership at the present time.

So much learnt about this James Arthur Fisher / James Annersley Fisher since page 1 when I first posted my question.   All thanks to the help and generosity of folks on this website.

Just wish he had spent his last years writing his story down !
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Friday 24 July 20 09:48 BST (UK)
Quote
My sister lives in Devon, I will ask her to go take a look at the address !

Just Google it. It's a guest house.

Quote
I see the time you both made the posts was 5.45 today - was that in Great Britain 5.45am, because that was extreme dedication

Yes in UK. Woke up at 4 and couldn't get back to sleep.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Friday 24 July 20 10:03 BST (UK)
Looking in the Gazette, there were several deaths at Cookshayes House in 1965. It appears to have been a nursing home at that time.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: MaxD on Friday 24 July 20 13:55 BST (UK)
Sent 6.47 (am) UK time Friday, (5.47 NZ time Friday) early start, needed to finish painting the garden fence!

MaxD
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 25 July 20 09:54 BST (UK)
I was struck by the similarity of the "mental kink" excuses given in the 1917 (bogus captain)  and 1922 (bogus doctor) trials:
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Saturday 25 July 20 10:27 BST (UK)
Thought you might have given up on James Arthur Fisher , thinking I had more than enough help with him !

I had not looked at the the entries on the bogus doctor because I had thought he surely wouldn't go that far!   Will take a look later today at your posting.

I thought the it was interesting Gertrude Ellen Fisher was called 'an artist'  when she came back to England in 1957.   
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: MaxD on Saturday 25 July 20 10:48 BST (UK)
ShanuJ may well be doing the same as I am now - looking for evidence that James Arthur Fisher of the Jan 1917 court appearance had in fact been discharged and was awaiting re-instatement of his commission.

His commission in 14 Battalion in  Oct 1914 and his promotion to Captain  in Mar 1916 are both supported by London Gazette entries.   The appearance in 11 Battalion in France in July 1917 would seem to be him, the battalion cross checking with the 11 Warwicks man hoping to join the RAF.

The fact that he had been discharged was stated by the Assistant Provost Marshal not by Fisher so on the face of it is correct.  The fact that he was awaiting reinstatement was Fisher's statement

Thus far, I find nothing in the LG for the period Mar 1916 and Jan 1917.

However as mentioned before, his promotion to Capt :
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29547/page/3921 has the intriguing "late temp capt" against his name which does suggest someone who has been out of the service and is being brought back to the rank he previously held.  (Lily - take no notice of the "temporary" - it means wartime commission).

The missing link is evidence of the earlier discharge. 

ShaunJ may wish to comment?

MaxD
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: Mckha489 on Saturday 25 July 20 10:56 BST (UK)
One of those 1922 reports has these dates. Which could mean absolutely nothing!


“ He enlisted on February 4, 1916, and in June 1917, was in hospital for shell shock after a remarkable escape from death, “
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 25 July 20 11:09 BST (UK)
I'm just chasing after loose ends. One of them was "Fulford Hall" but it is stated in court in 1917 that he had never lived there. "At the most" he had stayed there as a guest. Fulford Hall in that period was the home of manufacturer Wilfrid Hill, a Liberal parliamentary candidate (perhaps related to John Ernest Hill who defended JAF?). Researching Fulford Hall took me back to the court report and the "mental kink" quote which I remembered from the bogus doctor case.

Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Saturday 25 July 20 11:41 BST (UK)
Where do you find these newspaper reports - i don't remember seeing the one about a daughter being born and JAF thinking he was a 'big pot'.   Nor about him being in hospital in 1917 for shell shock  -  1917 of course he was in court for wearing the King's uniform as a Captain when he was not entitled to .  Searching on the BNA website gives me very little I find.

I have been doing FH for 40 years and thought I knew my way around pretty well, but I am such a novice compared to you folks.

I very much welcome you ShaunJ to tie up all the loose ends you can find !

I wold love to be in touch with one of his descendants, but they would probably know a lot less than you folks on here - and now me.

Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Saturday 25 July 20 12:37 BST (UK)
I have found the newspaper reports now in BNA as mentioned, the extra 1917 report and the 1922 report on JAF as a bogus doctor.   The 1922 case  -  states JAF was suffering from shell shock and in hospital from June 1917 until November 1918 continuous .  I think the age is given as 28yrs (poor quality image) so few years young than he would be.   I thought it interesting how he says in his defence he was 'too energetic and tried to get on too quickly. i was a month too soon, otherwise I would have been all right'.  Reminded me of similar attitude as expressed when JAF was caught out in other cases.    Haven't had change to read through properly yet.

My JAF was in court in 1922 for obtaining money under false pretences  (in Axbridge, Somerset so next door to Devon).    Mentions he was a coffee planter though no mention of this in the 'doctor case' .    So how does it square with JAF above being in hospital in 1917, when he was in court for wearing the uniform of a captain in 1st Grenadier Guards without entitlement  in 1917.  Again no mention of that (as far as I can see) in the bogus doctor case.

Again it is tantalisingly close to it being one and the same man, and yet . . . . .
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: MaxD on Saturday 25 July 20 15:58 BST (UK)
There is a (now) closed thread on the Great War Forum essentially dealing with the same subject which can be a tad frustrating and leads to duplicate work!

That said, one more piece of the jigsaw emerges from the newspapers, specifically the Warwick and Warwickshire Advertiser and Gazette of 4 Dec 1915 which records that Captain JA Fisher....appointed 2/Lt..Oct 1914 in [14 ]Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment... has been transferred to the local reserve of the Warwicks.

That would explain why, when he was (re) appointed captain in Mar 1916 he is listed as "Second reserve" which I had overlooked before and may well explain why he didn't go overseas until July 1917. 

His "shell shock" is yet another of his tall tales, the hunting accident referred to in the Birmingham Mail in Jan 1917 is far more believable.

The "continuous" dates don't add up with the dates in the RAF record.

MaxD
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 25 July 20 16:25 BST (UK)
His connection with 6th Dragoon Guards ended in July 1914 - yet this crops up in the Daily Post in October 1915:
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Saturday 25 July 20 16:44 BST (UK)
Surely evidence about JAF being shell shocked and in hospital during 1917 / 1918 (in 1922 case) would have to be verified by doctors to be allowed in evidence in a court case ?     JAF couldn't just say it had happened and be believed.

Still trying to double check on all the evidence for JAF to see if it is the same man in every instance, or not.   
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 25 July 20 16:47 BST (UK)
Not sure if these have been found before:

R War, R: Temp. Capt. J. A. Fisher, from a service battalion be temporary captain (Nov. 5, but with seniority Dec. 3, 1914).
(Birmingham Daily Post 30 November 1915)
R. War: Temp. Capt. J. A. Fisher relinquishes on account of ill-health (Dec. 24).
(Birmingham Daily Post 24 December 1915)

Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: MaxD on Saturday 25 July 20 17:23 BST (UK)
Good spots!  The first would perhaps add up with the move to the reserve and the second is the missing link of his retirement until coming back again in Mar 1916 and then described as "late temp capt".

MaxD

Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Saturday 01 August 20 21:27 BST (UK)
Quite by chance, as one does,  I have just come across postings on the website greatwarforum.org concerning James Arthur Fisher, the person I have been researching and about whom I have received so much help from folks on this website, and been so grateful for the amazing discoveries you have made on my behalf, which I have said more than once throughout the communications between us on this site.     

I wanted to post this to all those who have helped with this research here on Roots.chat and who might have been in involved in any communication on the other website concerning James Arthur Fisher, because I read there some very insulting and incorrect opinions about me from certain people, such that I didn't recognise it was me they were discussing.     I will not go through each of the misleading comments about me, but would just say, i have not pressured anyone to carry out research for me and strongly object to such a claim being made against me.
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: sarah on Sunday 02 August 20 11:32 BST (UK)
Quote
I have just come across postings on the website greatwarforum.org

If you have any concerns regarding what you have read on greatwarforum, should you not address it to the organizers/moderators of that website ?

Regards

Sarah
Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: LaytonLily on Sunday 02 August 20 12:08 BST (UK)
Sarah  -  You will see from my posting yesterday that I say some of the comments about me on the GWR website were from people who had also been involved on this website in helping answer my questions about James Arthur Fisher.   That is why I posted my comment here.

It was of great concern to me that they should make such criticisms and that they thought I was ungrateful and dismissive of all the help I had been given by the folks on Roots.    I have always expressed how grateful I am for the wonderful help afforded by those who contribute and freely give of their time and expertise to help.  I would never have answered a question about two brothers in the Fisher family, which had bugged me for years, without the help of Roots people over recent weeks.   

I was very clear with the FH contact I asked for help in explaining the military terms at the beginning of my quest  -  and that was all i asked her for  -  that I was receiving great help from people on Roots website.   I have been in contact with her about the postings she made on GWR about me and needless to say, there will be no more communication between us.

I have already received an e-mail directly to me from someone who is a member of both Roots and GWR website about this matter which I very much appreciated and was very helpful.

Title: Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
Post by: trystan on Thursday 06 August 20 10:21 BST (UK)
This topic is now locked.