RootsChat.Com

Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: katiesam on Sunday 19 July 20 13:10 BST (UK)

Title: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: katiesam on Sunday 19 July 20 13:10 BST (UK)
Hi all,

I'm trying to find some information on my great great grandfather and grandmother. I know they were born in Scotland and had children born in both Scotland and Belfast in N.I.

I can't find a marriage cert for them or even when they died - not sure of my grandmother maiden name either - i have a subscription to myheritage but its just leading me to deadends at the moment.

This what i have

William Clark born circa 1860 in Scotland
Lizzie Clark born circa 1860 in Scotland

in 1889 that had my great grandfather Alexander Clark in (I've been told) Port Glasgow
Their other children were called Ellen, Robert, William, Lizzie, Mary, Ruth, Janie

I have them on a census in Otter Street, Victoria, Down, Ireland on Mar 31 1901 but that is the only record i can find of them and i'm not sure what i'm doing wrong. At a dead end!

x
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: Falkyrn on Sunday 19 July 20 13:39 BST (UK)
Checking Scotlands people there are no recorded Alexander Clarks born in 1889 in Port Glasgow between 1888 and 1891.

Have you found the family in the 1891 census - a quick check in Renfrewshire doesn't bring up much (one William Clark in Port Glasgow and a few in nearby Greenock)
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: Liviani on Sunday 19 July 20 13:42 BST (UK)
I'm trying to find some information on my great great grandfather and grandmother. I know they were born in Scotland and had children born in both Scotland and Belfast in N.I.

Their other children were called Ellen, Robert, William, Lizzie, Mary, Ruth, Janie

Do you know which of the children were born in Scotland and approximately when?
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: TerriAnn on Sunday 19 July 20 13:43 BST (UK)
Ruth's Birth certificate lists mothers surname as McKinnon
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02153/1816775.pdf

Jane Clarke
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02054/1786072.pdf

Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: Liviani on Sunday 19 July 20 13:47 BST (UK)
Ruth's Birth certificate lists mothers surname as McKinnon
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02153/1816775.pdf

Jane Clarke
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02054/1786072.pdf

Nicely found.

This might be William and Lizzie's (Elizabeth?) marriage;

CLARK
WILLIAM
MCKINNON
ELIZABETH
1882
501/ 53
Old or West Kilpatrick

This would be under Dunbarton on Scotland's People
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: katiesam on Sunday 19 July 20 13:51 BST (UK)
1882
Birth of daughter: Ellen Clark   Scotland

1886
Birth of son: Robert Clark   Scotland

1889
Birth of son: Alexander Clark   Scotland

1893
Birth of son: William Clark    Scotland

1895
Birth of daughter: Lizzie Clark   Scotland

1896
Birth of daughter: Mary Clark    Belfast, County Antrim, Ireland

1897
Birth of daughter: Ruth Clark    Belfast, County Antrim, Ireland

1899
Birth of daughter:  Janie Clark   Belfast, County Antrim, Ireland

This is what i have in my tree so -
I was told Alexander Clark was born in Port Glasgow but it was word of mouth so may not be accurate

Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: katiesam on Sunday 19 July 20 13:54 BST (UK)
Ruth's Birth certificate lists mothers surname as McKinnon
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02153/1816775.pdf

Jane Clarke
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02054/1786072.pdf

Thank you so much!!
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: Liviani on Sunday 19 July 20 13:55 BST (UK)
1882
Birth of daughter: Ellen Clark   Scotland


This is a possible birth for Ellen/Helen on Scotland's People

CLARK
HELEN
F
1883
501/ 116
Old or West Kilpatrick

Note that Helen is a common varient of Ellen

This registration district also matches the area of a marriage of a William Clark and Elizabeth McKinnon in Old or West Kilpatrick in 1882 (see my previous reply)
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: katiesam on Sunday 19 July 20 13:57 BST (UK)
1882
Birth of daughter: Ellen Clark   Scotland


This is a possible birth for Ellen/Helen on Scotland's People

CLARK
HELEN
F
1883
501/ 116
Old or West Kilpatrick

Note that Helen is a common varient of Ellen

This registration district also matches the area of a marriage of a William Clark and Elizabeth McKinnon in Old or West Kilpatrick in 1882 (see my previous reply)

This is such a help - thank you!
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: TerriAnn on Sunday 19 July 20 14:03 BST (UK)
Possibly Ellen's marriage, fathers job is the same as on the birth certificates
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1903/10232/5724078.pdf

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Marriage?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1919/09691/5514918.pdf
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: Millmoor on Sunday 19 July 20 14:08 BST (UK)
Think they are in Glasgow in the 1891 census - 9 Lyon Street Milton

William Clark 32 Rivetter b Glasgow Barony
Elizabeth 32 b Glasgow
Ellen 7 b Old Kirkpatrick Yoker
Robert 7 b Old Kiirkpatrick Yoker
Alexander 3 b Glasgow City
William 5 mos b Glasgow City

William
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: TerriAnn on Sunday 19 July 20 14:15 BST (UK)
Possibly Ellen's marriage, fathers job is the same as on the birth certificates
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1903/10232/5724078.pdf

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Marriage?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1919/09691/5514918.pdf

Ruth marriage
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1916/09792/5554701.pdf

Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: Millmoor on Sunday 19 July 20 14:23 BST (UK)
Possible birth for Alexander Clark: Scotland's People 1888 Milton

11 Sep 1888 at 9 Lyon Street, off Garscube Road, Glasgow .Parents William Clark Iron Rivetter (journeyman) and Elizabeth Clark MS McKinnon.  Parents married 29th December 1882 Parish of Old Kirkpatrick Dumbartonshire.

William
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: katiesam on Sunday 19 July 20 16:47 BST (UK)
Thank you all so much, wasn't expecting so many response with great information! I'm still looking to find out when William and Elizabeth Clark nee McKinnon died - i'm presuming it's in Belfast as i know they moved there but I guess it could be Scotland if they went back- myheritage.com isn't helping me out at all - You guys seem to find things so much quicker than me - where's best to look?

x
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: TerriAnn on Sunday 19 July 20 17:00 BST (UK)
Thank you all so much, wasn't expecting so many response with great information! I'm still looking to find out when William and Elizabeth Clark nee McKinnon died - i'm presuming it's in Belfast as i know they moved there but I guess it could be Scotland if they went back- myheritage.com isn't helping me out at all - You guys seem to find things so much quicker than me - where's best to look?

x

I had a quick look for their deaths but didnt find anything yet, a great site to use for irish records is
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: Forfarian on Sunday 19 July 20 17:24 BST (UK)
I guess it could be Scotland if they went back- myheritage.com isn't helping me out at all

For Scotland https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0

and for Ireland, as TerriAnn has suggested.
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: Millmoor on Sunday 19 July 20 17:42 BST (UK)
Scotland's People is best for Scottish records. The marriage cert. for William and Elizabeth from there should give you the names of their parents and help with going back further. I use Ancestry, FindMyPast, and Freecen to help to narrow down census searches.

I have little experience with Irish records but did wonder if this is a possibilty for Alexander Clark in the 1911 Irish census.

23 Carew Street, Victoria, co Down - Alexander Clark 22 Labourer in rope works b Scotland. Living in the household of a Samuel Johnstone.

I think the rest of the family are showing as Clarke in the 1911 census at 118 East Bread Street, Pottinger, co Down

William Clarke 52 rivetter b Glasgow
Elizabeth Clarke 52 b Glasgow
Robert Clarke 25 ropework labourer b Yoker dunbartonshire
William Clarke 20 tailor b Scotland
Elizabeth Clarke 18 flax spinner b Whiteinch Scotland
Mary Clarke 16 flax spinner b Belfast
Ruth Clarke 14 doffer?in mill b Belfast
Jennie Clarke 10  scholar b Belfast
Isabella Clarke 8 scholar b Belfast

William

Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: TerriAnn on Sunday 19 July 20 17:49 BST (UK)
Isabella's birth although mothers surname is spelt differently and father job is different.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1902/01925/1745797.pdf
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: katiesam on Sunday 19 July 20 17:49 BST (UK)

23 Carew Street, Victoria, co Down - Alexander Clark 22 Labourer in rope works b Scotland. Living in the household of a Samuel Johnstone.

Samuel Johnstone later became his father-in-law - I've seen this census before. Thank you for looking it up. I'll make sure to look at what you've suggested x
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: aghadowey on Sunday 19 July 20 18:42 BST (UK)
I had a quick look for their deaths but didnt find anything yet, a great site to use for irish records is
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
Irish Genealogy only covers N.I. civil registrations up to 1921. For births, marriage and death certificates after 1921 see GRONI, Belfast. Register & purchase credits to view marriages over 75 years old and deaths over 50 years old.
https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: aghadowey on Sunday 19 July 20 18:51 BST (UK)
William Clarke died 19 Mar.1938 aged 76-
   https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=7019.11820
Elizabeth Clark died 14 Feb.1941 aged 83-
   https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=7039.14354
Robert Clark died 7 Feb.1947 aged 61-
   https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=7095.2826
John Gourley died 16 June 1922 aged 3 months-
   https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6831.523
Jane Clarke died 14 Feb.1917 aged 18-
   https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=4510.415
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 19 July 20 20:11 BST (UK)
Once you confirm parents' names for William and Elizabeth from their marriage entry, you should be able to hopefully find their births and families.

Given the location of the marriage, a possible 1881 entry for Elizabeth:

Elizabeth McKinnon 22 french polisher b. Glasgow
John McKinnon 20 brother, hammerman b. Glasgow
Henry McKinnon 18 brother, Rivet Boy In Works, b. Glasgow

Address: 6 Gladstone Place, Old Kilpatrick, Dumbartonshire

Monica

Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: Millmoor on Monday 20 July 20 09:04 BST (UK)
This may be William Clark in 1881, again showing as Clarke

10 Gladstone Place Old Kirkpatrick Dunbartonshire

Jas McKinnon 30 ship riveter b Glasgow
Ellen McKinnon 27 wife b Ireland
John Prentice Father in Law 50 shipyard lab b Ireland
Robert Brown 24 lodger shipyard lab b Glasgow
Wm Clarke 21 lodger rivetter shipyard b Glasgow.

Note same street as in Monica's post for Elizabeth. James brother of Elizabeth? (Interestingly there is a family with the surname Kinnon rather than McKinnon in the 1861/1871 censuses in Glasgow with children Elizabeth, James , John and Henry of correct ages - parents James and Ellinor, both born Ireland.).

William

William
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 20 July 20 16:44 BST (UK)
No wonder I couldn't see the McKinnon family before 1881, William! They also have some registrations as Keenan, such as Elizabeth's birth:

Elizabeth Keenan
Birth 9 Mar 1858 Calton,Glasgow,Lanark
Parents James Keenan and Ellenor Porter

Brother John also showing as Keenan but Henry as Kinnon. Henry's birth reg should include date and place of parents' marriage which is always a bonus with Irish parents  ::)

Monica

Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: Millmoor on Monday 20 July 20 17:11 BST (UK)
Glad you have arrived at the same conclusion re Keenan/ Kinnon/ McKinnon, Monica!

There is actually this marriage in Ireland in Hillsborough, co Down 26 Dec 1850

James Keenan and Elenor Porter. (His father James - her father Joseph).


And just to add to the mix re surnames the only death that seems to make sense for James is as James Mackinnon age 39 in 1863 in Milton RD (MMN Torrie) while the only death I can see for Elenor is in High Church in 1873 age 45, recorded as Helen Keenan/ Porter.

William
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 20 July 20 17:28 BST (UK)
Looks like you have found their deaths...and marriage  :) The birth cert of Henry can reconfirm the date and place hopefully.

With Ellinor showing as head of household in 1871, likely James had died between censuses as you have found.

Monica

Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: katiesam on Monday 20 July 20 18:10 BST (UK)
Thank you so much, I'm new to researching my family tree and so far its fascinating me. All your help is greatly appreciated!
katie xx
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: aghadowey on Monday 20 July 20 21:29 BST (UK)
Here's the actual marriage-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1850/09392/5401999.pdf
James was living in the townland of Edentrillick and Eleanor in the townland of ? in Hillsborough Parish (can't find townland yet).
https://www.townlands.ie/down/dromore/edentrillick/
Title: Re: Can anyone help me with my deadend?
Post by: Kiltaglassan on Friday 24 July 20 11:26 BST (UK)

..........and Eleanor in the townland of ? in Hillsborough Parish (can't find townland yet).


Looks like Culcavy (sic), but Culcavy townland is in the civil parish of Blaris (Iveagh portion) although it borders the civil parish of Hillsborough.
https://www.townlands.ie/down/iveagh-lower-upper-half/blaris-iveagh-portion/culcavy/
https://www.townlands.ie/down/hillsborough/

KG