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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: garlands on Thursday 23 July 20 12:30 BST (UK)
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Gertrude & Thomas COOK were born ca 1910 and, in 1960, were living in Enfield. Thomas had served in the Royal Navy until 1955. They had at least two sons, one born in 1942 and the other, I believe, a few years later. I'm trying to find their marriage, and should be most grateful if anyone can help.
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Are the sons both dead if not you should remove their names
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How do I do that?
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On the top right of your post that mentions them there is a modify button, if you select that you can remove the names and save your change
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Thanks. That was easy.
In answer to your original question, I don't know, so it's probably safer to make the changes.
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What was their address in 1960.
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garlands, do you have any other snippets of info re this couple, Gertrude's surname? and as rosie says an address?
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Wrong
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Which reg district was that 2nd birth
Wrong
Now I know why I could not see it ;D
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Middle initial for second child is A. Both children are listed at same address in electoral registers for early 2000's.
Possible death :-\
COOK, GERTRUDE born c1913
GRO Reference: DOR Q4/2000 in Enfield (2271A) Reg A39D Entry Number 242
If that is her death there is a possible probate entry
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In 1960 the family lived at 25, Primrose Avenue, Enfield.
Concerning Gertrude's maiden name, there is a possible birth for one of her sons which points to PEET, but I cannot support that with any other evidence (marriage, 1939 Register, birth of other son), hence my appeal.
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In 1960 the family lived at 25, Primrose Avenue, Enfield.
Electoral registers for the period have Wilfred Hearne and Doris G Hearne at 25
Walter J T Cook and Eleanor M Cook at 23
Likely all dead now.
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Possibly- Gertrude had maiden name as BICK born 19.4.1913, baptised 19.6.1916 parents George William & Beatrice Bick.
war register a good help.
John
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She married George J Cook - Islington RD Sept qtr 1943
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With so little info was clutching at straws a bit. Cannot find a common mmn for the two children. Nearest I got was Colman 1942 and Coleman 1948.
John
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Thank you all.
Two thoughts:-
1. Could Walter & Eleanor COOK be the parents of Thomas?
2. I'd found the COLMAN of 1942, but favoured the entry for PEET in the same quarter because of the location, but could find no supporting evidence. John's discovery of COLEMAN in 1948 is too much of a coincidence to be ignored, and might well have given us Gertrude's maiden name.
George
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garlands, what we are trying to achieve is a common mother's surname for a J R & T A, that's according to electoral registers c2000. The 1942 possibly fits but the 1948 is T G so does not fit.
Can't think what else to pursue at present.
John
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John,
You're right; I've been wrestling with finding a common mother for some time and, in despair, turned to the experts of RootsChat. For a few hours, I thought you'd done it, but your latest post sends me back to square one!
George
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Sorry George.
John
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Rosie,
Sorry, for some reason I missed your #7.
In 1960, Gertrude claimed to be aged 50, i.e. born in 1910. Either that's wrong or her reported birth year at time of death is wrong
George
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Can we ask what is the source for Thomas and Gertrude living at 25 Primrose Avenue in 1960?
Electoral rolls for this address 1959/1960/1961 don't show them living there.
The Walter J T Cook and Eleanor M. Cook living at number 23 only married in Sept.qtr.1938 Edmonton i.e. Walter J T Cook and Eleanor M. Downes.
The couple at number 25 were Wilfred Hearne and Doris Gertrude Polmear who married 1916 Edmonton.
Annette
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In 1960, Gertrude claimed to be aged 50, i.e. born in 1910.
And living at 25 Primrose Road, Enfield!
"Thomas had served in the Royal Navy until 1955"
What is your source for all of this?
Son 2 was born November 1947, info is freely available online.
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Electoral rolls for this address 1959/1960/1961 don't show them living there.
But we know who was living there, and at number 23, I have already told everybody :)
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I know you have - I was just trying to give some background to the 2 couples living at 23 and 25!
Annette
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Well done, Annette.
And interesting to see that you have found out that Doris G was Doris Gertrude!
Son 2 was born November 1947, info is freely available online.
Another candidate for son 1 born in Campbeltown, Scotland, in 1942
No idea if it's the right person. Full names are given (ScotlandsPeople)
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The Walter J T Cook and Eleanor M. Cook living at number 23 only married in Sept.qtr.1938 Edmonton i.e. Walter J T Cook and Eleanor M. Downes.
Well that is interesting in view of Dec qtr 1947 births, similar mother's maiden name, could there be an error in the index? :-\
In 1962 listed at 23 Primrose Ave is a young voter, entitled to vote after 1 Oct 1963
Guess who that is :)
So there must be a connection between these Cooks.
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Maybe she actually was Downer rather than Downes?
Birth
DOWNER, ELEANOR MARY
Mother's Maiden Surname: ANDERSON
GRO Reference: 1907 J Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 717
Henry John Downer and Ellen Downer lived in Primrose Avenue.
They married 1895
A possible Walter, but rather younger than Eleanor
COOK, WALTER JOHN THOMAS
Mother's Maiden Surname: TAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1914 M Quarter in WILLITON Volume 05C Page 403
Are we sure that Thomas and Gertrude existed?
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I posted a reply some 20 minutes ago, but it seems to have vanished.
1. My source for all this information is a Confidential Report prepared by The Children's Society
2. As Thomas COOK was in the RN, his son could very well been born in Campbeltown in 1942. I have some left-over credits with ScotlandsPeople which might come in handy, now
George
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Maybe she actually was Downer rather than Downes?
Birth
DOWNER, ELEANOR MARY
Mother's Maiden Surname: ANDERSON
GRO Reference: 1907 J Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 717
Henry John Downer and Ellen Downer lived in Primrose Avenue.
They married 1895
A possible Walter, but rather younger than Eleanor
COOK, WALTER JOHN THOMAS
Mother's Maiden Surname: TAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1914 M Quarter in WILLITON Volume 05C Page 403
You are spot on, jonw65.
In 1939 index Eleanor M. Cook (wife of Walter John Thomas Cook) is in the district where Walter was born so clearly the right Walter J T and Eleanor M have been identified.
Is 'Thomas' actually Walter John Thomas I wonder (known as Thomas like his father)? It certainly looks like the J R born 1942 was the son of this couple (possibly born in Scotland) as with them on electoral roll) BUT if that is so who the heck is Gertrude? The only female at 25 Primrose Avenue i1960 is Doris Gertrude Hearne. (Not possible to get the birth certificate of the J R born 1942 Campbeltown at the present time - not able to view with credits, garlands, alas).
I can't see a Walter J T Cook in 1939 index - is this because he is away with Royal Navy? I guess only the marriage certificate of Walter and Eleanor 1938 could confirm if he was indeed in the navy.
If this is so, and WJT is 'Thomas' it brings us back to who was Gertrude?
Annette
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If W J Thomas COOK is 'my' man, how do we square the birth date discrepancy?
W J T COOK was born in Williton in 1914
Thomas COOK claimed in 1960 to be 50 years old, as did Gertrude
George
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Excellent summary, Annette.
George,
Attempting to confirm Walter J T is the one born in 1914, there is this death in 2010 on the GRO website.
COOK, WALTER JOHN THOMAS
Year of Birth: 1914
GRO Reference: DOR Q1/2010 in Enfield (2271A) Reg 1A025 Entry Number 502692601
Walter seems to left a will, proved at Ipswich, 11 March 2010
Died 28 January 2010.
You can order the will for just £1.50
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
Death of Eleanor
Sep 1982 Enfield 12 444
Cook, Eleanor Mary
d-o-b 29 March 1907
how do we square the birth date discrepancy?
Gertrude, if she was Eleanor, would have bee a few years older, and WJT a few years younger. Perhaps they equalised their ages somewhere in the middle?
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If the confidential report prepared by the Childrens Society in 1960 is relating to the J R born 1940's (18) and/or the T A born 1940's (13) - brothers - then I think we have proved that they would appear to the children of Walter John Thomas Cook and wife Eleanor Mary nee Downer (and not a Thomas and Gertrude) living at 23 Primrose Avenue (not 25).
Fact - electoral rolls show that at no time did a 'Thomas' and 'Gertrude' Cook live at number 25 (or anywhere in that road)
Fact - if the report is concerning the 2 boys above then they do not appear to be children of a Thomas and Gertrude Cook anyway but of WJT and EM Cook living next door at number 23 (as already stated but only by purchasing a) the birth certificate of J R and b) marriage certificate of said couple, can you confirm occupation of Walter J T Cook).
We could hypothesize forever but a 'Thomas' and 'Gertrude' Cook (both born supposedly ca.1910) living at 25 Primrose Avenue do not appear to have existed there at any time so the confidential report seems to be flawed!
Annette
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Everyone's been extremely helpful and you've all obviously worked very hard to help solve this problem, but I have in my hand the report which was prepared in 1960. Herewith some redacted quotes.
(the elder boy) "was 18 years of age..........and his DoB was 5/3/1942...........he lived with his parents Thomas and Gertrude COOK and his brother..........at 25 Primrose Avenue, Enfield". (His) "parents were both aged 50.........and (his brother) was 12 years of age. Thomas COOK was a factory worker and Gertrude worked as a cleaner with British Railways. Thomas had previously been in the Royal Navy............and left in 1955".
How can that be reconciled with your findings?
George
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Maybe if you get the 1942 birth certificate it will confirm date of birth and parents
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Everyone's been extremely helpful and you've all obviously worked very hard to help solve this problem, but I have in my hand the report which was prepared in 1960. Herewith some redacted quotes.
(the elder boy) "was 18 years of age..........and his DoB was 5/3/1942...........he lived with his parents Thomas and Gertrude COOK and his brother..........at 25 Primrose Avenue, Enfield". (His) "parents were both aged 50.........and (his brother) was 12 years of age. Thomas COOK was a factory worker and Gertrude worked as a cleaner with British Railways. Thomas had previously been in the Royal Navy............and left in 1955".
How can that be reconciled with your findings?
George
Whilst it does seem unlikely, possibly the details in the report are incorrect.
They would presumably have been provided by those concerned to whoever compiled it. Could the compiler have been given incorrect information?
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The same thought had occurred to me, but the circumstances surrounding its preparation are such that the respondents had nothing to hide nor to gain from not telling the unvarnished truth. I know that makes no allowance for the vagaries of human behaviour, but most people will tell the truth when questioned; it's simpler than lying.
George
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A further thought.
There must have been correspondence between the COOKs and the Society which would necessitate the names and the address being correct.
George
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Another point from re-reading the report. It states that "When (the elder boy) was visited at the end of September, 1960,.........)" That would be difficult if the family did not live at the given address.
George
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At the end of the day nothing regarding the names given as 'Thomas' and 'Gertrude' named in the report can be proved by records available. It is easy for a house number to be mistranscribed from notes made at the time but not names unless they were nicknames they chose to use - and, if the 2 boys in question are the ones we appear to have identified then, as soon as Scotlands People start issuing certificates again you need to purchase J R's birth certificate which will confirm names of his parents and crucially his birthdate which you state was 5/3/1942.
I really don't know how we can help you further. Only by the birth certificates of the 2 boys can you progress one way or another.
Annette
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Ancestry has, in UK, Naval Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1972
Walter John Thomas Cook
RN Long Service and Good conduct Medal
Application Books: 86680-98529 (1944-1954)
Must admit that came up via an ancestry tree.
A baptism for Walter at Carhampton, Somerset, 29 March 1914
There is a baptism of Helena (for Eleanor) Mary Downer, 3 May 1907, St Luke, Enfield
Born 29 March 1907
Of course the tree doesn't have her in the Enfield vaccination registers, hidden away on there!
Father Henry John Downer, a Carman at a Distillery.
As it is difficult to find another Cook with all those names in that order(!) the navy medal record is interesting.
John
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Annette,
I must admit that I have to agree with you. I just hope that my'credits' outlast the covid-19 hiatus
Jon,
Great news; you've definitely found 'my' Thomas COOK. Thank you. The Royal Navy connection is the clincher. I'd tried the National Archives but to no effect. Well done.
George
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Well done, jonw65.
George, having some credits will not do you any good on Scotlands People with regard to J R Cook's birth certificate. You are not able to view this certificate online (if so, you could have done it now). You are going to have to order a copy but since lockdown they are not allowing people to order certificates. Will have to wait until 'normal' service is resumed (whenever that will be).
Annette
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Annette,
Whilst the situation at ScotlandsPeople it is deeply frustrating, thanks to Jon's work, sight of the Birth Certificate is much less vital now that father has been fully identified, which was 50% of the reason for my starting this thread.
George
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You've all provided so much information, for which I'm most grateful. I've attempted to summarize it as follows:-
1. Thomas COOK is Walter John Thomas COOK
2. W J T COOK m Eleanor M DOWNES in Edmonton, 3Q 1938
3. Gertrude COOK d 4Q 2000 in Enfield, b c1913
4. In 1960 the family lived at 25, Primrose Avenue, Enfield
5. Electoral registers for the period have Wilfred HEARNE and Doris G HEARNE at 25, Walter J T COOK and Eleanor M COOK at 23
6. Doris G HEARNE is Doris Gertrude HEARNE (nee POLMEAR)
7. COOK, Walter John Thomas Mother's Maiden Surname: TAYLOR 1914 M Quarter in Williton
8. A baptism for Walter at Carhampton, Somerset, 29 March 1914 (4m from Williton)
9. COOK, Walter John Thomas Year of Birth: 1914 d Q1/2010 in Enfield
10. Walter seems to left a will, proved at Ipswich, 11 March 2010 Died 28 January 2010.
11. Death of Eleanor Sep 1982 Enfield COOK, Eleanor Mary d-o-b 29 March 1907
12. Ancestry has, in UK, Naval Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1972: Walter John Thomas COOK RN Long Service and Good conduct Medal Books: 86680-98529 (1944-1954)
13. There is a baptism of Helena (for Eleanor) Mary Downer, 3 May 1907, St Luke, Enfield b 29 March 1907.
Please correct and point out my omissions
George
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garlands, number 3 is not relevant to your family.
A Gertrude Bick was born 19/4/1913 - she married a George J Cook in 1943, and she is the Gertrude Cook b.19/4/1913, d.2000 Enfield.
Annette
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=256628.0
Might be a link back from WJT Cook with the Cook family on this thread.
Kanskar
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Annette
You spotted my deliberate mistake!!!
Thanks. I'll make the necessary deletion.
George
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Kanskar,
Thank you. I'll follow-up later today and come back to you
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Kanskar,
Thanks, I've had a look but I'm afraid there does not appear to be any connection, but thanks again for your interest
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Is the T A registered in Hatfield in 1947 definitely the brother of J R? If so, then his BC should reveal his mother's first name.
I'll get a copy of Walter's Will to see if that's any help.
George
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TA born Hatfield is certainly likely to be a son of the Cook couple who later lived at 23 Primrose Avenue. They weren't listed there in the first years after the war. But the Downer family was in the street for some years.
Good luck with the will, good idea to get hold of it while they are so cheap.
John
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O K
I'll have a punt on TA and see if I can get a copy of the BC
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Will due by e-mail 29th July
BC due for despatch by post 31st
Thumb-twiddling time
George
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I now have a copy of the Will
Some facts and some thoughts
1. In 1988, he’s living in Mudeford with his wife, Maisie Ellen (note the order of her names; is she the Eleanor M DOWNES whom he married in 1938?)
2. His sons are confirmed as JR and TA
3. His wife has 2 sons who carry the surname SEAL. Presumably, she was a widow/divorcee, so what was her maiden name?
4. If Maisie Ellen and Eleanor M are one-and-the-same person, she must be the mother of JR and TA. Who, then, is the Gertrude of 1960?
5. His wife was still alive when he wrote his Will in 1988. Who, then, is the Eleanor Mary COOK who died in Sep 1982 in Enfield?
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Eleanor Mary Cook died 1982 Enfield was WJT's wife.
He then marries again to a Maisie E. Seal in 1985 Enfield (referred to in the will).
Annette
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Annette,
Thanks for sorting that out for me.
W J Thomas COOK m Eleanor Mary DOWNES in Edmonton, 3Q 1938, and she died in Enfield, 3Q 1982. Therefore, she must have been the mother of JR in 1942 and TA in 1947.
Obviously, she was still married to Thomas in 1960, so who was Gertrude?
Let's hope the BC for TA (due for despatch tomorrow) will shed some light on this mystery.
George
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If 'Thomas' and 'Gertrude' are shown as the parents of JR and TA and we now know from will that the boys were the sons of Walter JT and Eleanor Mary one can only assume they were nicknames of the couple rather than their given names. Certainly no Thomas and Gertrude that fit anywhere.
Annette
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I'm happy with 'Thomas' because we know he was Walter John Thomas COOK, but Gertrude? If TA's BC confirms that Eleanor was his mother, I guess we'll just have to refer to'Eleanor aka Gertrude' which, to my mind, is not very satisfying, but I can't think what else to do.
George
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Annette
Don't hold your breath whist waiting for the BC scheduled for despatch yesterday. I'm still awaiting the arrival of a certificate from Kew which was scheduled for despatch on the 24th!
George
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I must say I'm waiting with interest - along with a number of others, I dare say - to hear the info on the BC.
Whilst I can imagine people calling themselves in daily life by whatever first name they wish, I would have thought on official documents they would call themselves their 'official' names (as on birth certs/marriage certs etc) to avoid confusion.
But who am I to say?
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BC for TA has arrived, but still no sign of my other request which was scheduled for despatch on 24th.
DoB is 1st November 1947
TA's mother is confirmed as Eleanor Mary COOK formerly DOWNER.
Father is Petty Officer Walter John Thomas COOK RN.
Family address is 23 Primrose Avenue, Baker Street, Enfield
This must mean that JR's mother is Eleanor Mary COOK, and that she later decided to call herself 'Gertrude'; yes???
George
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As Rosie pointed out some time ago, Gertrude COOK was a real person who died in Enfield in 2000 at the age of 87, but who was she?
Thomas COOK's sister? No, he had 3 sisters, but none called Gertrude.
Thomas COOK's sister-in-law? No, he had 2 brothers, neither of whom married a Gertrude.
I have found, in 1939, Mrs Gertrude COOK, DoB 24 Jun 1911, living in Hampstead, but no sign of her husband This is not too far from Enfield, and the date at death could easily be a couple of years out, but this is far from conclusive evidence.
Any thoughts?
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Garlands, I too am doubtful of someone called Eleanor Mary changing her preferred name to Gertrude, even in 1939 when it might have been more fashionable than it is now..
And using the Gertrude name in an 'official' setting.
So I'm with you in continuing to research the possibilities.
Have looked at your 1939 find, and surely it looks as if she was COOK from 29/12/1944 according to the update note by her name?
And she says in 1939 she is Divorced, although I can't make out her surname (and neither can Ancestry, which has BER?)
ADDED: could her surname be BURWASH?
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Marriage:
Gertrude M Burwash
Reg Qtr: Oct-Nov-Dec
Reg district: Hendon
County: Middlesex
Spouse: James E Cook
Vol No: 3a
Page No: 1525
Cannot be connected to your Cook couple, can it?
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And this Gertrude (May) Cook died in Camden Apr qtr 1979 (confirmed by matching 1939 dob) so isn't the Enfield Gertrude Cook death.
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Igor,
Thanks for all that; you've definitely eliminated this Gertrude.
Earlier, I came across a Gertrude E M COOK, and those 2 initials immediately caught my attention; could this be Gertrude Eleanor Mary? Her husband was (if I remember correctly) Charles, which would appear to rule her out, but it set me wondering if 'my' Gertrude had all three names?
George
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Igor,
Thanks for all that; you've definitely eliminated this Gertrude.
Earlier, I came across a Gertrude E M COOK, and those 2 initials immediately caught my attention; could this be Gertrude Eleanor Mary? Her husband was (if I remember correctly) Charles, which would appear to rule her out, but it set me wondering if 'my' Gertrude had all three names?
George
Well, it's certainly possible about three 'first' names, but why just show the Gertrude on the document you have, if the death and other documentary evidence is E. M. or Eleanor Mary, or Maisie Ellen. sorry, corrected, the Maisie Ellen was his second wife
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The document I have is a third-party's record of a question-and-answer session, the (assumed) question being "What is your name?" Answer: 'Gertrude COOK'.
The same (assumed) question to her husband eliciting the response 'Thomas COOK' even though he is actually 'Walter John Thomas COOK'.
There's a lot of 'straw clutching' going on around here at the moment.
George
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I wonder if it's worthwhile following up the neighbours - wife's second name Gertrude - who lived at number 25, the number actually mentioned on the documents.
I'm sure I'm not alone, George, in my flight of fancy considering whether there was a rift between Thomas and Eleanor Mary, and potentially between neighbours Wilfred and Doris Gertrude Hearn at no 25.
And then the remaining spouses joined up, with Gertrude calling herself Cook?
Just a thought.
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My theory (see above) is somewhat unlikely
Wilfred G Hearne 5/11/1897
Doris G Hearne 20/5/95
in 1939 at 102 Daneland, East Barnet.
Wilfred died in Enfield in 1971.
added: And Doris Gertrude in 1975
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This is probably of no relevance but in 1959 there's an Ellen Downer living at no 21, with Walter J T and Eleanor M Cook at 23, and the Hearnes at 25 Primrose Avenue
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Igor,
I have to confess, I've thought that Gertrude might be 'the lady next door', but, I have to agree that it is most unlikely. Just a co-incidence?
To have an Ellen DOWNER at#21 is another co-incidence???? I wonder if she's Eleanor Mary's sister-in-law? Sister, I think, is unlikely - would you call your two daughters Eleanor and Ellen?
George