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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Fluffypants on Saturday 25 July 20 23:12 BST (UK)
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It it possible to reach the rank of sergeant within a period of two years?
I'm trying to locate a relative who is described as a Sergeant Grenadier Guard on an 1868 birth certificate for his child. On his marriage record in 1866, he is described as a Labourer.
His wife is a widow by 1878 when she remarries. His name is George BROWN and I haven't been able to find any record for him in terms of birth, death or military involvement. The only other suggestion that he was a member or the Grenadier Guards is that his daughter was enrolled in the Guards Industrial School plus the marriage records for his three children describe him as a deceased soldier. It is the short duration of two years from enlistment to sergeant that has me a little concerned that marriage records may not be correct.
Thanks for any help that may clarify this.
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In peacetime forces personnel have to wait until people leave the forces before they are promoted and given stripes. During a time of war being fought and men killed, promotion can be quite quick.
If he was injured before dying, then he might have been treated in the historic Chelsea Hospital. https://www.chelsea-pensioners.co.uk/tracing-ancestors
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I have seen cases of serving soldiers putting their civilian occupations on the marriage register.
Have you found the family in the 1871 census?
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I can't find any military record for George Brown as I don't have any birth date, location or battalion name to pin him down to. There isn't any census record so far and the marriage records are a bit of a problem as well.
He married a Mary Ann RABBIT but there are two marriages with couples of the same name and parent's names on the marriage. One was in 1866 prior to the birth of a son in 1868 where he is recorded as a labourer. Then the birth certificate for his son in 1868 states his occupation as a sergeant in the Grenadier Guards.
Following that, there is a marriage in 1871 and another 2 children for which I'm waiting on their birth certificates. The marriage in 1871 states that they weren't previously married and George is recorded as a sergeant in the Grenadier Guards. The first marriage record would suggest that this birth year was around 1844.
He is proving to be a bit of a headache.
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Something to consider. It's possible the first marriage was without consent of the army, therefore his wife and any children would not be taken on strength. It's not uncommon to find a second marriage after the soldier obtained consent.
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The only George Brown, Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards in the 1871 British Army "Worldwide Index" has the number 1536. I can't find any other army record for him.
However this 1871 census entry seems likely:
St James' Park, Buckingham Palace guardroom:
George Brown, unm, 26, Sergeant 3rd Battalion Grenadier Guards, born Notts, Kirkby in Ashfield
(Piece 357 folio 3 page 1)
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Was there a daughter Lily/Lilly born in March 1871?
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This does look like the right family in 1871:
8 Park Road Mews, Kilburn/Willesden:
Fredrick Britton 26 Cab Proprietor, born Islington
Eliza Britton wife 27 Bedfordshire
William Britton son 5 Marylebone
Fredrick Britton son 3 Marylebone
Stephen Britton son 1 Willesden
Mary Ann Brown sister 24 Bedfordshire
George Brown son 3 Bedfordshire
Lilly Brown daur 3 weeks Willesden
Frederick Britton married Eliza Rabbitt in 1864
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Something to consider. It's possible the first marriage was without consent of the army, therefore his wife and any children would not be taken on strength. It's not uncommon to find a second marriage after the soldier obtained consent.
I'd forgotten about that - my husband was serving in the Forces and had to obtain consent before we married in 1964. This was definitely a long standing custom, as I have a Yorkshire born Dragoon who lived in the 1700s and he had to have permission before he married a girl in Huntingdonshire
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Was there a daughter Lily/Lilly born in March 1871?
Could this be her birth entry?
BROWN, LILY ELIZA mmn RABBIT
1871 J Quarter in HENDON Volume 03A Page 112
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Lily Eliza Brown b 14 Mar 1871, baptised 9 Jul 1876 Royal Military Chapel St James's Park London
Father George Brown (deceased) Late Col Serjt 3rd Battln Grenadier Guards
Mother Mary Ann Cliniy edit (living)
Edit to add
Lily Eliza Brown
Birth 14 Mar 1871 bap 14 May 1871 Kilburn, Holy Trinity
Parents: George (soldier) & Mary Ann Brown of Park Road Mews
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Mother Mary Ann Cliniy
I think that is Mary Ann (living
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Mother Mary Ann Cliniy
I think that is Mary Ann (living
Thanks ShaunJ I did wonder if it was a Surname was going to try and add a snippet from the baptism to confirm - will modify my post :)
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The only George Brown, Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards in the 1871 British Army "Worldwide Index" has the number 1536. I can't find any other army record for him.
However this 1871 census entry seems likely:
St James' Park, Buckingham Palace guardroom:
George Brown, unm, 26, Sergeant 3rd Battalion Grenadier Guards, born Notts, Kirkby in Ashfield
(Piece 357 folio 3 page 1)
There is this George Brown on 1851 census living
Church Street, Kirkby in Ashfield, Basford, Nottinghamshire
Samuel Brown Head F W K b Kirkby, Nottinghamshire
Ann Brown F W K bMansfield, Nottinghamshire
Samuel Brown b Mansfield, Nottinghamshire
George Brown b Mansfield, Nottinghamshire
John Brown b Mansfield, Nottinghamshire
Elizabeth W Brown b Mansfield, Nottinghamshire
HO107 Piece 2125 Folio 51 Page 27
Possible marriage FreeBMD
1841 Mansfield
Samuel Brown
female name same page
Ann Waters
BROWN, SAMUEL mmn WATERS
1841 D Quarter in BASFORD UNION COUNTIES OF NOTTINGHAM & DERBY Volume 15 Page 425
BROWN, GEORGE mmn WATERS
1843 D Quarter in BASFORD Volume 15 Page 445
BROWN, GEORGE mmn WATERS
1844 D Quarter in BASFORD Volume 15 Page 438
Kirkby in Ashfield is in Basford registration district
Edit to add
Fluffypants - Just realised did you mention you have his marriage certificate?
What was his fathers name ?
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Thank you so ShaunJ and Ladyhawk, this information is great.
Yes, there is a daughter Lily Eliza BROWN who was born in 1871 and I'm waiting on her birth certificate. There are also two other daughters, Florence Annie BROWN (b. 24 Oct 1872) and Mary Louise BROWN (b. 12 Jan 1876). I have the 1868 birth certificate for the first son, Arthur George BROWN that gives George's occupation as Sergeant Grenadier Guards.
I don't have a record of birth for George BROWN, only the 2 marriage records. The 1866 marriage to Mary Ann RABBIT shows his father as Samuel BROWN with the occupation of book keeper and George's occupation is labourer.
In the 1871 marriage for George BROWN and Mary Ann RABBIT, father Samuel BROWN's occupation is a Clerk. George BROWN's occupation is a Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards.
The other puzzling problem with this family is daughter Lily Eliza BROWN. She is showing in the 1881 England Census at the Guards Industrial Home - Vauxhall Bridge Road (Francis Street) as a boarder and birth location as London, Middlesex. In the 1891 census, she is living at Church Oakley, Hampshire at Oakley Manor - the residence of William W B Beach (MP). Her occupation is a Kitchen Maid and birth location is Kilburn.
Then the clanger for her is the birth of her son Arthur Harold BROWN on 19 Jan 1892. Her name on this record is Lily Eliza BROWN formerly RABBIT. The father is Arthur George BROWN!! Based on the records, they could be brother and sister, which is bizarre and I can't find a marriage record for Lily Eliza RABBIT and Arthur George BROWN. There is a marriage record for Lily Eliza BROWN and Edward DAVIS in 1898 where she is described as a Spinster. The connection is that Arthur George BROWN and Florence Annie Baker (nee BROWN) are the witnesses.
The family legend is that Lily Eliza was raped whilst in service and Arthur Harold BROWN is her illegitimate son and that she had changed her surname to avoid embarrassment.
These relationships have had me flummoxed for a few years and your responses have filled some great blanks.
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The other puzzling problem with this family is daughter Lily Eliza BROWN.
She is showing in the 1881 England Census at the Guards Industrial Home - Vauxhall Bridge Road (Francis Street) as a boarder and birth location as London, Middlesex.
In the 1891 census, she is living at Church Oakley, Hampshire at Oakley Manor - the residence of William W B Beach (MP). Her occupation is a Kitchen Maid and birth location is Kilburn.
Then the clanger for her is the birth of her son Arthur Harold BROWN on 19 Jan 1892.
Her name on this record is Lily Eliza BROWN formerly RABBIT. The father is Arthur George BROWN!!
Based on the records, they could be brother and sister, which is bizarre and I can't find a marriage record for Lily Eliza RABBIT and Arthur George BROWN.
There is a marriage record for Lily Eliza BROWN and Edward DAVIS in 1898 where she is described as a Spinster. The connection is that Arthur George BROWN and Florence Annie Baker (nee BROWN) are the witnesses.
Lily's son Arthur H is living with his grandparents Robert & Mary Ann MASTERS (nee Rabbit) at
38 Park Grove Battersea his surname dittoed as Masters 1901 and surname Brown 1911.
Who registered Arthur Harold Brown's birth? Was it Lily?
What was the occupation given for father Arthur George Brown?
Have you found AGB on any censuses?
Births after 1837 details from familysearch.org
Introduction of civil registration of births in 1837, the birth certificates of illegitimate children usually show only the name of the mother, who is the informant, though the name of the father may sometimes appear.
From 1875 the registrar could not enter the name of the father, unless at the joint request of the father and mother, when the father also signed the register.
When an illegitimate child marries it may leave blank the space for its father's name, but it may then reveal the truth, if it has been learned in the meantime.
It was all too easy to register the birth of an illegitimate child as though it were legitimate by inventing the name of a father. Where a woman does this she may invent a man with the same surname as herself (so that she is "Smith formerly Smith") and give him her own father's forename.
A birth registered late by a woman may indicate that the child is illegitimate, particularly if a marriage cannot be found or if her husband's surname is the same as her own. In such cases the baptism of the child may reveal the true position and this should always be searched for.
I see that Edward Davis & Lily had two sons by 1911 named Edward George 1900 & Wilfred Edwin 1906 (mmn Brown)
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Not sure if you have seen these records..........
Death Notice
Arthur George Brown, widower occ Painter born Bedfordshire
died 12th Oct 1939 in South Africa age 71 years 8 months
Father George Brown, deceased mother Mary Ann, deceased
Spouse Elizabeth Brown (born Jackson) died February 1929
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPTV-CSF8
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPCP-T986
1929 Elizabeth https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPCG-CZ95
Husband A G Brown present at death
doesn't look as if Arthur & Elizabeth had any children but Elizabeth edited Martha is a sister
Martha Amelia Holland & Annie Whittle
Martha’s death notice born Berkshire https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:782L-9TW2
and is this Arthur on 1901/1891 census address Kilton Street, Battersea, Wandsworth, London & Surrey
1901
Arthur G Brown Head b Renhold, Bedfordshire occ painters labourer
Elizabeth Brown Wife b Pimlico, Middlesex
John C Johnson Brother-In-Law b Pimlico Engineers Machinist
1891
Arthur G Brown Head b Renhold, Bedfordshire occ Labourer M Ship Yard
Elizabeth Brown Wife Tailoress b London
Edit to add
Mr A G Brown, occ Decorator
Mrs Brown
Departure 7 10 1909
Departure port London
Destination port Durban (Port Natal)
Destination South Africa
Ship name Dunluce Castle
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Do you have the death of Mary Ann’s husband George Brown?
Is there a possibility this is the same person no first name, no Regt number
Snippet from link
26th June 1876
Q) it is true that Sergeant Brown, of the 3rd Battalion of Grenadier Guards, on returning from exercise at Wormwood Scrubs on or about the 12th instant, was suddenly taken ill, and died in hospital......
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1876-06-26/debates/a19bf3af-503a-446e-bb2b-eaab66da7684/Army
Is this the death entry?
Jun 1876 St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 291
Brown George age 31
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Not sure if you have seen these records..........
Death Notice
Arthur George Brown, widower occ Painter born Bedfordshire
died 12th Oct 1939 in South Africa age 71 years 8 months
Father George Brown, deceased mother Mary Ann, deceased
Spouse Elizabeth Brown (born Jackson) died February 1929
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPTV-CSF8
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPCP-T986
1929 Elizabeth https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPCG-CZ95
Husband A G Brown present at death
doesn't look as if Arthur & Elizabeth had any children but Elizabeth had 2 daughters
Martha Amelia Holland & Annie Whittle
Martha’s death notice born Berkshire https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:782L-9TW2
and is this Arthur on 1901/1891 census address Kilton Street, Battersea, Wandsworth, London & Surrey
1901
Arthur G Brown Head 1868 Renhold, Bedfordshire occ painters labourer
Elizabeth Brown Wife 1868 Pimlico, Middlesex
John C Johnson Brother-In-Law 1881 Pimlico Engineers Machinist
1891
Arthur G Brown Head 1868 Renhold, Bedfordshire occ Labourer M Ship Yard
Elizabeth Brown Wife 1868 Tailoress London
Edit to add
Mr A G Brown, occ Decorator
Mrs Brown
Departure 7 10 1909
Departure port London
Destination port Durban (Port Natal)
Destination South Africa
Ship name Dunluce Castle
Thanks Ladyhawk, your research is amazing!!
Lily registered the birth of Arthur Harold BROWN and gave the occupation for Arthur George BROWN as a “labourer at the timber yard”.
In the 1891 census, where Arthur George BROWN is living with his wife Elizabeth (nee JACKSON), his occupation was a “labourer in shipyard”. This also made me wonder if they were the same person. The address on the 1892 birth certificate was 38 Park Grove.
In the 1891 census, the family living at 38 Park Grove are:
Robert MASTERS
Mary Ann MASTERS (nee RABBIT)
Florence A MASTERS (correct surname BROWN) – step daughter of Robert
Mary L BROWN – step daughter of Robert
Robert C MASTERS – son of Robert and Mary
William S MASTERS – son of Robert and Mary
No census records for AGB and his wife Elizabeth after 1901.
1914 Marriage for Arthur Harold BROWN listed father as Arthur George BROWN with the occupation of decorator.
Yes, I have the sons of Edward and Lily DAVIS and Edward was one of the witnesses to the 1914 marriage of Arthur Harold BROWN.
No, I had not seen the death record of Arthur George BROWN on Family Search and wouldn’t have considered that they moved overseas. I had found potential death registrations and hadn’t pursued it further, so this information is a revelation.
I think Martha and Annie are the sisters of Elizabeth JACKSON.
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Do you have the death of Mary Ann’s husband George Brown?
Is there a possibility this is the same person no first name, no Regt number
Snippet from link
26th June 1876
Q) it is true that Sergeant Brown, of the 3rd Battalion of Grenadier Guards, on returning from exercise at Wormwood Scrubs on or about the 12th instant, was suddenly taken ill, and died in hospital......
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1876-06-26/debates/a19bf3af-503a-446e-bb2b-eaab66da7684/Army
Is this the death entry?
Jun 1876 St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 291
Brown George age 31
Sorry, I don’t have a confirmed date of death for George BROWN but had the June 1987 St. Geo. H. Sq as a possible option. Mary Ann and George’s youngest child, Mary Louise BROWN was born 12 Jan 1876 and Mary Ann remarried to Robert MASTERS on 08 July 1878. So, presumably George BROWN died between these dates. It could be worthwhile for me to order the death certificate to confirm to discard this as an option.
Thanks again Ladyhawk, your responses have been invaluable. Who knew that a question about rank could lead to such treasure.
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Colour-Sergeant Brown, 3rd Battalion Grenadier Guards, was taken ill on parade immediately after return of the battalion from Wormwood Scrubs; he was admitted to hospital, and died about 4˝ hours after admission from apoplexy.
That is almost certainly him. Well found Ladyhawk. Who thought we'd find his death recorded in Hansard?
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Burial at Brompton Cemetery 16 June 1876
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61801/images/61801_work97_127-00201
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Burial at Brompton Cemetery 16 June 1876
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61801/images/61801_work97_127-00201
I can't view the details from the link as not a member but well found ShaunJ :)
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No census records for AGB and his wife Elizabeth after 1901.
So we now know they left for South Africa in 1909 and died there.
Lily registered the birth of Arthur Harold BROWN and gave the occupation for Arthur George BROWN as a “labourer at the timber yard”.
It's possible as Lily's brother Arthur & Elizabeth didn't have any children too cover up that her son was illegitimate when Lily registered his birth, she used her mother's maiden name (Rabbit) and her brother Arthur's details as his father :-\
Lily could have moved in with Arthur & Elizabeth and they were taking care of her during that time
:-\
edit to add
I missed the address you gave for on AHB birth cert. (same address as where AHB was living with his grandmother Mary Ann Masters in 1901 & 1911c)
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I really appreciate the help that you have both given me. There's no way I would have been able to find this information. It's wonderful that these brick walls have now been broken. The next thing I'll do is order the death certificate for George Brown. Shame that there isn't a regimental number so I could order his military records.
I'm assuming that the Grenadier Guards weren't involved in any military conflict between 1866 and 1876....but military history is not my strength :)
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Shame that there isn't a regimental number so I could order his military records.
I am fairly certain his army number was 1536 but his army records are very unlikely to have survived. Although the Guards regiments kept their own records until recently (all except the Scots Guards are now with the MoD), records for soldiers who died in service were routinely destroyed after a period of time (20 years I think). I am not seeing him on any medal rolls.
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There was this query in the FindMyPast Forum a couple of days ago ...seems a familiar tale:
"I was wondering if anyone can give me some tips for researching Grenadier Guards Records in the 1860’s.
I know the person’s name and his death details (he died whilst in The Guards and a question was asked in Parliament about his death!). .. He was a Colour Sargeant in the 3rd Battalion."
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I don’t think I added these records gives Arthur & Elizabeth’s cause of death, intended place of burial….
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QR8N-WNMM
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WZMW-PTPZ
New Cemetery Brixton Johnannesburg
(unfortunately there doesn’t appear to be an entry for Arthur & Elizabeth on Find a Grave)
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2331135/brixton-cemetery
There was a topic Re: Brixton Cemetery Johannesburg - here’s the link
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=758579.9
Article on the cemetery
http://www.theheritageportal.co.za/article/nostalgia-and-remembrance-brixton-cemetery
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There was this query in the FindMyPast Forum a couple of days ago ...seems a familiar tale:
"I was wondering if anyone can give me some tips for researching Grenadier Guards Records in the 1860’s.
I know the person’s name and his death details (he died whilst in The Guards and a question was asked in Parliament about his death!). .. He was a Colour Sargeant in the 3rd Battalion."
That does sound incredibly familiar and what a huge coincidence!! Is the forum on the FindMyPast website or is that the Facebook FindMyPast group? I don't have a subscription to FindMyPast but couldn't see a forum on their site using my free membership.
I had seen the record for George BROWN with the regiment number of 1536 on the Forces War Records website but had initially put it to the side as he was recorded as "1st (or Grenadier) Regiment of Foot Guards". However, now I suppose it could also be him.
Previously, I have been successful in receiving records for another relative who served in the Grenadier Guards but he served a bit later on from 1908. Thanks again for your help.
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That does sound incredibly familiar and what a huge coincidence!! Is the forum on the FindMyPast website or is that the Facebook FindMyPast group?
It's their "forum" on Facebook. https://www.facebook.com/groups/findmypastofficial/?post_id=2804959043125821
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I don’t think I added these records gives Arthur & Elizabeth’s cause of death, intended place of burial….
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QR8N-WNMM
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WZMW-PTPZ
New Cemetery Brixton Johnannesburg
(unfortunately there doesn’t appear to be an entry for Arthur & Elizabeth on Find a Grave)
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2331135/brixton-cemetery
There was a topic Re: Brixton Cemetery Johannesburg - here’s the link
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=758579.9
Article on the cemetery
http://www.theheritageportal.co.za/article/nostalgia-and-remembrance-brixton-cemetery
Thanks Landyhawk, your sleuthing skills leave mine for dust :D
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That does sound incredibly familiar and what a huge coincidence!! Is the forum on the FindMyPast website or is that the Facebook FindMyPast group?
It's their "forum" on Facebook. https://www.facebook.com/groups/findmypastofficial/?post_id=2804959043125821
Good grief...this is an amazing coincidence as we are definitely researching the same family!!! There was another post on the group discussing the duplicate marriages 5 years apart. Thanks ShaunJ for pointing me in this direction.
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HI FLUFFYPANTS AND ALL
I only discovered Roots today after it was suggested to me in the Find My Past Facebook Forum.
I too have been researching Colour Sergeant George Brown, his Father Samuel as well as George's wife Mary Ann Rabbit. I have found all of the information suggested by various people here on my own! I have got LOADS of Mary Ann's history but prior to George's first marriage to her I know none of his history. I even traced the Witnesses on the "first" marriage but apart from the surname I cannot find a link. (they lived close to George's address on the first marriage certificate.
My wife's is a descendant of George and Mary Ann and I have lots of information on their daughter Lily Eliza Brown. She married Edward Davis who was born Edwin Needle! WHAT a FAMILY!
I have George's death Cert and Lily Eliza's birth plus Marriage certificates.
Perhaps between us we can dig further. Finger Crossed.