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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Gail Johns on Monday 27 July 20 04:37 BST (UK)
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My grandfathers early life has always been a big mystery and its proving tricky to solve! What I have so far is his marriage cert in NZ 1927, when he married my grandmother. His name is shown as James Summers
It states his age as 37, miner, place of birth Northumberland England. Father - Robert Summers,farmer. Mother - Emily Summers, maiden name Scott
I have his full military record from the New Zealand Defence Force when he joined in 1914 through to discharge in 1919, so clearly he came to NZ pre 1914.His next of kin on that record is his sister also living in NZ at the time. From her address on that document I think I have found her on electoral roll and her name is Elizabeth Smith
Cant find anything else that matches all of the above - lots of possibilities but not certain. He may have changed his name or lied about parents names, I know anythings possible but hoping someone may know something that gives a clue.
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No Summers/Scott marriage in England or Scotland. The GRO index has no birth for an Elizabeth or James Summers with a mothers maiden name of Scott
There is an illegitimate birth in the June qtr 1888 in the Newcastle on Tyne Rd for a James Edward Summers
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No Summers/Scott marriage in England or Scotland. The GRO index has no birth for an Elizabeth or James Summers with a mothers maiden name of Scott
There is an illegitimate birth in the June qtr 1888 in the Newcastle on Tyne Rd for a James Edward Summers
I think James Edward Summers b 1888 may have died soon afterwards ;
James Edward Summers b 1888 died J-S 1888 Newcastle upon Tyne 10b 55
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Welcome to rootschat
From her address on that document I think I have found her on electoral roll and her name is Elizabeth Smith
What was the address/year and who else was resident at the property
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I picked out two things from his service record :
He had previously served with the Royal Garrison Artillery - but I haven't traced any record of that so far.
There is another name and contact address on the records in addition to the sister :
Miss Layland , Bell Hill , Billericay , Essex.
I have found the Layland family on the census and in Electoral Rolls , including 1915 which is about the right time - " Robert Jasper William Layland , Bell Hill, Billericay " - but cannot make a connection.
EDIT : R J W LAYLAND married ETHEL SUMMERS in 1902 in Melksham - will look for more info.
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Robert Jasper William Layland 25 bachelor , sawyer ,of Essex, father William
Ethel Summers 25 spinster of Melksham , father James Summers farmer
married 20 Apr 1902 Melksham
witnesses Maud and John Fry
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At this site -
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
search....William SCOTT 26/969...... for WW1 file
William SCOTT Hawarth Cottage Ngaio....born England
NOK Mrs Emma SCOTT Hawarth Cottage (mother)
amended to...26 Hospital Street Wellington
amended to ..Mrs Sydney SMITH 26 **mandel Rd Wellington
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1901 census Ethel Summers is with parents James and Emma in Melksham
(RG 13/1930/28/13)
Also in the household is 13 year old James.
Birth of James 3q 1887, Melksham 5a, 111 mmn Cornish
Birth of Ethel 3q 1876, Melksham 5a, 106 mmn Cornish
Marriage James Summers + on same page Emma Cornish, 2nd q 1883, Bath 5c, 1201
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The service record is the first in the list, not the second James of Melksham.
At this site -
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
search....William SCOTT 26/969...... for WW1 file
William SCOTT Hawarth Cottage Ngaio....born England
NOK Mrs Emma SCOTT Hawarth Cottage (mother)
amended to...26 Hospital Street Wellington
amended to ..Mrs Sydney SMITH 26 **mandel Rd Wellington
Yes it is Sydney and Jean SMITH at 26 Hospital Road (former address Harwath Cottage, Ngaio), not Elizabeth SMITH.
Debra :)
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BDM NZ marriage
1908/6575 Jane SCOTT marr. Sydney SMITH
NZ Electoral Roll 1913
at "Harworth Cottage" Crofton West, Wellington
SMITH Jane
SMITH Sydney, bricklayer
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The service record is the first in the list, not the second James of Melksham.
At this site -
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
search....William SCOTT 26/969...... for WW1 file
William SCOTT Hawarth Cottage Ngaio....born England
NOK Mrs Emma SCOTT Hawarth Cottage (mother)
amended to...26 Hospital Street Wellington
amended to ..Mrs Sydney SMITH 26 **mandel Rd Wellington
Yes it is Sydney and Jean SMITH at 26 Hospital Road (former address Harwath Cottage, Ngaio), not Elizabeth SMITH.
Debra :)
Sorry I'm confused. Are we saying the service record which mentions E Smith and Miss Layland is the wrong service record ? I'm probably being dense , as usual ;D
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Yes it is the wrong record. James' service number is 6/1411, he was born in Northumberland.
Emma SCOTT was at Harworth Cottage in 1911 and noted as a widow, and by 1919 she is also living at 26 Hospital Road.
She died 4 Sep 1927 aged 80 and is buried with Jean (Jane) who died in 1937 aged 56, James SCOTT who died 1918 aged 43, and Sydney and Jean's daughter Evelyn who died in 1918 aged 2 years 8 months.
Debra :)
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Sorry, I should say that they have put the Essex address on the wrong service record in (from memory) two places. It is the contact for the other James SUMMERS who was discharged in the UK.
Debra :)
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James SCOTT who died 1918 aged 43
SCOTT - On 11th November, at 26, Hospital-road, James, dearly loved son of Emma and the late James Scott, late of Toko, and beloved brother of Mrs. S. Smith; aged 43 years. Private interment.
Debra :)
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I'd just finished reading the second record and found the address there too - at least I'm slightly less confused now ;D
Back to the drawing board .
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Evening Post 5 Sep 1927 p1
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19270905.2.4?
SCOTT—On the 4th September, 1927, at 21 Coromandel street, Wellington, Emma, widow of the late James SCOTT and beloved mother of Mrs S SMITH age 81 private interment.
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Hello Gail Johns and welcome to RootsChat. :)
The following may well be James SUMMERS arriving in New Zealand ?
I originally found the passenger list for the vessel "Ruahine" to Wellington, NZ, departed London 26 October, 1911 - arrived at Wellington on 11 December 1911.
These three passengers were travelling on the same ticket number (#1380) :
SUMMERS
Mr J. - miner
Mr N. (looks like ?) - miner
Miss E. - domestic
Nationality : Scotch
And this additional info - from The NZ Immigration passenger lists (@ familysearch) > 1911 "Ruahine"
SUMMERS
Mr J. - Miner / Mr W (rather than Mr N on other list) - miner / Miss E. - domestic.
All three destined for Westport ( i.e. West Coast / Westland - South Island) and their native place shown as Scotland.
Unfortunately, no ages given.
~ Lu
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..... From her address on that document I think I have found her on electoral roll and her name is Elizabeth Smith
Hmm ... there was an Elizabeth SMITH (married) residing at # 22 (not 26) Hospital Road (Wellington South electorate) in 1914. However have been able to discount her - she was formerly Elizabeth Eva TIPPETT, born Victoria, Australia (1888) - married James John SMITH in NZ, 1910.
~ Lu
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What about:
1901 census
Emma Scott Head Widow Female 54 1847 - Rothbury, Northumberland, England
Jane Scott Daughter Single Female 20 1881 Confectioner's Shop Assistant Alnwick, Northumberland, England
James B Scott Grand Son Single Male 13 1888 - Glororum, Northumberland, England
William Scott Grand Son Single Male 8 1893 - Northumberland, England
4788/ 162/ 8
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Just looking at the same family!
Emma was the widow of James Scott, looking at earlier censuses
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William Scott Grand Son Single Male 8 1893 - Northumberland, England
That William and this William....
At this site -
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
search....William SCOTT 26/969...... for WW1 file
William SCOTT Hawarth Cottage Ngaio....born England
NOK Mrs Emma SCOTT Hawarth Cottage (mother)
amended to...26 Hospital Street Wellington
amended to ..Mrs Sydney SMITH 26 **mandel Rd Wellington
...are most likely the same person. His service record gives a date of birth as 2 Feb 1893 at Newcastle upon Tyne.
Debra :)
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What about:
1901 census
Emma Scott Head Widow Female 54 1847 - Rothbury, Northumberland, England
Jane Scott Daughter Single Female 20 1881 Confectioner's Shop Assistant Alnwick, Northumberland, England
James B Scott Grand Son Single Male 13 1888 - Glororum, Northumberland, England
William Scott Grand Son Single Male 8 1893 - Northumberland, England
4788/ 162/ 8
Hope you don’t mind - young William’s birthplace is actually given as Northumberland, New Hirst.
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What about:
1901 census
Emma Scott Head Widow Female 54 1847 - Rothbury, Northumberland, England
Jane Scott Daughter Single Female 20 1881 Confectioner's Shop Assistant Alnwick, Northumberland, England
James B Scott Grand Son Single Male 13 1888 - Glororum, Northumberland, England
William Scott Grand Son Single Male 8 1893 - Northumberland, England
4788/ 162/ 8
Hope you don’t mind - young William’s birthplace is actually given as Northumberland, New Hirst.
Hirst would be in Woodhorn parish, which was in Morpeth RD
Which leads possibly to William Scott, 1st q 1893, Morpeth 10b 149, no mother’s maiden name given.
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William's birth in Hirst fits with the family being there in 1891 (RG12 / 4260/34/1)
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Scott's arriving in NZ in Dec 1907? On the Fifeshire
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRS8-MZ?i=3&cc=1609792
Father of some of the children could have been Edward Scott?
Will of Emma Scott, proved Wellington, 1929
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9GB-GGM6?i=676&cc=1865481
As per army record, James died 4.3.1967
Death registered as James Bruce Summers, age 78.
Sorry if any of this is wrong!
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SCOTT, JAMES BREWIS
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in CASTLE WARD Volume 10B Page 281
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Was about to post passenger list that Jon posted. Just to add I think Mary ( maiden name Buck) is the daughter in law of Emma Scott and was married to Edward Scott and mother of Edna, James and Ruth. Edward is showing as a police constable in the 1901 census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS9Q-KSM
Also note that ages for Mary and Jane are showing slightly differently on the outgoing passenger list from Liverpool - Jane is 27 and Mary, showing there as Mary E is 32.
William
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SCOTT, JAMES BREWIS
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in CASTLE WARD Volume 10B Page 281
The only odd thing is that in 1901 his birthplace was said to be Glororum, which was in Belford RD :-\ (a good way to the north) and in 1891 it was Bothall which was in Morpeth RD :-\
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Never thought to look on the outward! Well done William.
Jen, I have been poring over Google maps trying to make sense of these places, couldn't even find the 1891 one!
So are James Bruce Summers and James Brewis Scott the same person? :-\
Don't ask me!
Date of birth of James Summers given on army attestation is 28 August 1887.
John
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Bothal https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/Bothal (close to where the Scott family were living in 1891)
Bamburgh (Glororum) https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/Bamburgh
They are a long way apart! And neither in Castle Ward :-\
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The outer places of Castle Ward may not be impossibly far away. The B initial for James from the census is hopeful! We could certainly do with something more, a baptism, or a school record, anything at all really!
John
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Only in Northumberland could there be TWO places called Glororum ;D
I've just found the other one (actually it's just a farm and associated cottages) and it was in Castle Ward.
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Well done Jen.
And only you could have found it!
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Flatterer ;D
If it was me I’d be risking buying that birth certificate :-\
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-992F-L6VF?i=473&cc=1865481
Probate file for James SCOTT, died 11 November 1918 Wellington
Statement by Emma SCOTT, widow -
James SCOTT was my natural and lawful son.
Lawful widow Elizabeth SCOTT but no children.
This is only marriage for this James SCOTT.
Elizabeth SCOTT at Porirua Mental Hospital, unable to administer a Will.
My intention to apply for Letters of Administration.
Deceased was born Cuambuis , Northumberland, England.
I was born Rothbury, Northumberland, England.....
I was married only once.
My deceased husband, James SCOTT, born Lilleburn, Northumberland.
(Cuambuis , Northumberland....I think this might be Columbus, Northumberland?)
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Probate file for Emma SCOTT, died 6 Sep 1927, Will written 13 Jan 1919
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9GB-GGMT?i=679&cc=1865481
Son-in-law Sydney SMITH, bricklayer, Executor.
Estate divided between Sydney SMITH, and grandson William SCOTT, now NZEF, formerly storeman at Whitcombe and Tombs, Wellington.
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Hello again Gail Johns
Do you also happen to have the Death record for your James SUMMERS [died at Rununga, West Coast on 12 April 1967] ?
I ask, because sometimes a death record can supply additional helpful information ... or, as often comes with the passage of time, updated info. Always (I think) useful for "comparisons sake" - especially when further searching has failed to yield details which may advance your search. :)
For a New Zealand death record, we always suggest purchasing the "printout" version (rather than certificate) as this contains the maximum amount of detail available. (See NZBDM site.)
~ Lu
* Edit to add bolding to question.
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re: James SUMMERS - NZ Army file 6/1411 :
Someone queried earlier the names " James Bruce" in relation to death of abovenamed.
On the Army record, yes, the "Notification Of Death" record gives the additional name "Bruce" ... but it has been encircled - as if to query this. [His widow's name and address appear on this notice too ... but she has probably not supplied the information to the Army directly.]
Also, NZBDM has this man's death recorded (1967) in the name of James Bruce SUMMERS.
[Possibly the undertaker has been the informant to both the Army and NZBDM ? ]
Gail Johns ... did your James have a child named "Bruce" ??
~ Lu
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Wow, wow and wow! I am overwhelmed by all this information from so many helpful people and I have to say I'm going to need time to figure it all out.
Firstly I'll answer some questions
Lucy2 - yes I do have Grandads (James) death cert - he died 12/4/1967 (I was there) I know that his wife Nelly and his sons and daughters gave the information. It stated James Bruce but that is the only time I have seen Bruce used but as I say the only documents I started with were his 1927 marriage cert and his Army record.
Yes his eldest son was called Bruce
I had not noticed the 2nd Nok name (Layland) on the service records - I've had them for years and thought I'd read it all!
I had a feeling that the 1911 passengers on the Ruahine to Wgtn were my people, mostly because of the 2 "miners" and the Miss E. Grandad was a miner and I always believed from a family of miners. The only relative he ever mentioned was his sister in Wellington - I jumped to conclusions about her being Elizabeth - now I see Elizabeth was at 22 Hospital road, not 26 ,duh!
I knew the Wellington address to be my best clue but I am blown away by the info you folks have got using that
BUT - tbh I have no idea what we can conclude from all of this - was James mother Emma Scott?? Was that her maiden name or a previous marriage? Was he James Scott - where does Summers come in and who was his sister in Wellington? Was his mother there as well. Sorry lovely sleuths but can someone please outline what they think I'm looking at. Also JenB - which birth certificate is the one you think I should order?
Thanks for so much help - it has fried my brain :o
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Can you please list all the information from the 1927 marriage document....everything please.
Does the death certificate give "years in the colony"?
NZ BDM seath
1918/11837 SCOTT James 43Y
I think this death printout would be useful to you. Wife Elizabeth is unlikely to be the informant.
Emma SCOTT would be the informant...either named as such...or source of information.
Emma would be giving information about origins of William SCOTT.
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NZ BDM marriage
1908/6575 Jane SCOTT marr Sydney SMITH
This marriage record would be useful to you. It will record information about Jane's origins......age, birthplace, parents' names, father's occupation. Witnesses might be close family members.
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Marriage document :
James Summers 37, Occupation Miner, Bachelor, birthplace Northumberland, England,
residence Greymouth , Fathers name Robert Summers, farmer , Mothers name Emily Summers
maiden name Scott
Death cert states time in NZ 58yrs but to be honest I dont think anyone at the time knew that for certain
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Can you please list all the information from the 1927 marriage document....everything please.
There should be much more on the document that you have. If a church wedding...what church....denomination. What names do you see for witnesses. Do you see (dec) for any of the four parents?
What information about Nelly BROWN....
All the information please....everything.....everything.
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Probate file for Emma SCOTT, died 6 Sep 1927, Will written 13 Jan 1919
Link to Emma's will already given by me in Reply #24 :)
Also, NZBDM has this man's death recorded (1967) in the name of James Bruce SUMMERS.
Yes, I said that, again it was in Reply #24
Death registered as James Bruce Summers, age 78.
Sorry if I got the wrong date of death.
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Wivenhoe - sorry I didnt realise Nellys info was relevant - she was born here and I have most of her family info already. But I'm sure you have good reason for asking ;) so here we go
Registry office wedding in Greymouth 24 march 1927
Nelly Brown, age 19, domestic. widow (25/3/1925 date of death previous husband) birthplace Runanga, residence Greymouth. Father Septimus Warlow, miner Mother Elizabeth Warlow, maiden name Newman
Witnesses J Brown , miner , Greymouth
Bertha Picken, Cobden, married woman
No deceased marked against either parent
Thanks for helping , I'm really struggling to understand it all
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Also no "deceased" re either parent
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Hello Lucy2
Thanks for clearing up my mistake re Mrs Smith at the Wellington address. I failed to notice it was 22 Hospital Road rather than 26 and got a bit carried away. Of course I thought the Elizabeth there was Sydney Smiths wife but no - beginners blunder!
I also felt the 3 Summers' travelling on the Ruahine 1911 looked promising and of course the area , West Coast South Island NZ is "coal country" and where I have lived all my live. Also where my grandad James came to, worked in the mines, married my Nana (Nelly) and brought up 6 children, including my mother. She and her 3 sisters are still alive
However without ages at that travel date its a bit hard to say for sure and as well I thought they were from England :-\
I do have grandads death record - info given by his wife,sons and daughters at the time
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Thank you for the information from the marriage certificate.
Witnesses are useful to work with because they are often family members. But which family.....SUMMERS or BROWN?
So you need to know family names connected to bride and groom ........WARLOW...BROWN...NEWMAN...SCOTT...SUMMERS.
Marriage record asks for names of parents of bride and groom. There was no requirement to note if they were deceased, but this information was often asked for directly, or just volunteered.
If a parent is noted as deceased, then it would suggest that the others are alive. If no one is noted as deceased, then anything is possible, but at least you account for the suggestion.
The SCOTTs and SMITHs would seem to stay in Wellington, so they are not likely to attend a wedding on the west coast, but there might be family around.
On the WW1 record for James SUMMERS, page 21 I think , it asks for Nominated NOK, and Legal NOK. James names sister Mrs SMITH both times.
Given the need to clearly indicate if sister Mrs SMITH is more than just......point of contact, James names her as his legal NOK........a familial connection to Mrs SMITH ahead of any other person?.
From his WW1 file James SUMMERS is tall, nearly 6 foot, above average for the times. He has dark complexion.
In Australia most people who worked outdoors would have a dark / tanned completion...but a miner in New Zealand? Just something to keep in mind while you look for clues to connect him to other people.
I think William SCOTT was ....5 foot....4 inches?
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James SUMMERS at enlistment gives birth date 26 Aug 1887. James has no reason to be creative about his age in order to enlist, so, rightly or wrongly, this is what he believes his birthdate to be.
James SUMMERS at marriage, 1927, gives his age as 37 years, when we have every reason to believe he is 40. James is quite a bit older than his 19 year old wife, so we might allow him a bit of human vanity in taking a few years off his age.
James SUMMERS at death, 1967, is described by the informant to be 78 years old, and being in NZ for 58 years. That looks to be a calculated value....58 years......not rounded up / down....55 years...60 years.
I suspect there is a reference point here. The family story has him arriving in NZ as a 20 year old, and believing him to be 78 years old...then he has been in NZ for 58 years.
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Good news
First page for Castle Ward births in the GRO index for Dec 1887 is 381
James Brewis Scott is on page 381
So, whichever sub-district it was, his birth was likely to have been registered reasonably early in the quarter.
Which is what we want for a 28 August birth.
Looking for others from vol 10b page 381 in the 1891 census they seem to be in Ponteland sub-district in Castle Ward.
Ponteland is the first sub-district in Castle Ward.
It included the parish of Stannington
Only in Northumberland could there be TWO places called Glororum ;D
I've just found the other one (actually it's just a farm and associated cottages) and it was in Castle Ward.
A bit more on Jen's great find, the other Glororum was in the parish of Stannington
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glororum,_Stannington
Great map here, is close to Morpeth and to Ashington/Hirst
https://www.genuki.org.uk/gaz/NBL/Glororum
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-992F-L6VF?i=473&cc=1865481
Probate file for James SCOTT, died 11 November 1918 Wellington
Statement by Emma SCOTT, widow -
James SCOTT was my natural and lawful son.
Lawful widow Elizabeth SCOTT but no children.
This is only marriage for this James SCOTT.
Elizabeth SCOTT at Porirua Mental Hospital, unable to administer a Will.
My intention to apply for Letters of Administration.
Deceased was born Cuambuis , Northumberland, England.
I was born Rothbury, Northumberland, England.....
I was married only once.
My deceased husband, James SCOTT, born Lilleburn, Northumberland.
(Cuambuis , Northumberland....I think this might be Columbus, Northumberland?)
That would be Cambois near Blyth.
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James SUMMERS at enlistment gives birth date 26 Aug 1887.
28 August 1887
I have already given this info. Please read other posts!
EDIT at 10.35am
Here (attached) it says 26.8.87
Apologies to the wonderful Wivenhoe
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Hi Gail Johns
You're doing great supplying us all with answers to our questions etc. :) Please don't think in terms of "mistakes" or "beginner's blunders" ... all information, is good information ... because from that point we can sift through and discard what doesn't fit, and that which may be clouding our thoughts. :) And, jumping to conclusions, surprisingly, can sometimes be the key to solving a mystery. ;D
I'm thinking now perhaps the SUMMERS people on the 1911 "Ruahine" voyage, are not who we are looking for ?
However, there is a James SUMMERS > a miner, of a similar age > who needs to be eliminated.
This chap appears in the NZ Police Gazette* at places such as Greymouth and Reefton. [* Info available at ancestry.com, or Archives NZ site (year of offence required for search)]. It's relatively petty stuff - involving fighting / assault etc. - brought before a Magistrate, resulting in fines (rather than incarceration).
Two instances that caught my attention - and they are many years apart - are >
James SUMMERS, miner, b. ENG about 1888 - fighting - at Greymouth - 27 January 1928
and ... James SUMMERS, miner, b. America, abt. 1886, tried at Reefton on 23 August 1911. Both are listed as having a distinct tattoo (right forearm) which reads "MAGGIE".
[Same man, more than likely, but the 1911 offence couldn't be the J SUMMERS, Miner, per "Ruahine" because that ship didn't reach NZ until October December 1911. Question is, who is this particular James SUMMERS ??? ]
~ Lu
Edit to correct my error - month should read December (October was departure month).
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If there are a few children of James SUMMERS and Nelly alive now, do they remember him to have a tattoo on his arm....no doubt rather faded with time?
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from Emma's statement:
I was born Rothbury, Northumberland, England.....
I was married only once.
My deceased husband, James SCOTT, born Lilleburn, Northumberland.
These birthplaces fit exactly with the information on the 1871 when they are in Coquetdale with two children, Elizabeth and Edward (RG 10/5193/23/7). Looking at the GRO index for their births Emma's maiden surname is Judgson or Ludgson.
Marriage 2nd 2 1866, James Scott & Emma Judson, Rothbury 10b, 601.
In 1881 their son James is said to be born Rothbury, and in 1891 Whittingham (of which there appear to be at least two in Northumberland, one in Rothbury RD and one in Alnwick RD).
However James's birth was actually registered in Morpeth RD ::) 2nd q 1875, Morpeth 10b, 351 mother's maiden surname Judson.
Going back to Emma's statement, 'Deceased was born Cuambuis , Northumberland, England', if by Cuambuis she meant Cambois, then that was in Morpeth RD https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/Gazetteer/NBL_C
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Newcastle Courant 22 June 1866
Marriage: " At Harbottle, at the Presbyterian Church, on the 16th inst., Mr James Scott, of Clennell, to Emma, granddaughter, of the late Colonel Judson, of Carterside, near Rothbury".
The Colonel Judson referred to may well be Thomas Judgson , Lieutenant Colonel in HM Royal Artillery, of Carterside in the parish of Rothbury who left a will, probate 23 April 1836.
The groindex for the birth of Emma Judgson in Rothbury RD Jul - Sep 1846 has no mother's maiden name recorded. I, therefore, suspected that Emma's mother was either one of the two daughters named in the Colonel's will - Jessica and Susannah and lo and behold there is a baptism in Rothbury for Emma Judgson 14 Sept 1846 - no father named but mother transcribed as Lepica ! (presumably Jessica ) Judgson. Jessica does not seem to have married - she was buried in Rothbury 26 June 1890. In 1841 she appears to be recorded as Jessy Judgson and is found in Rothbury Workhouse, possibly with a child, Mary Ann. One cannot help but wonder if she was disowned by the rest of her family.
William
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Hello again
Wivenhoe
I'd be pretty certain that the marriage wouldnt have brought any family together. My family( meaning James wife, sons and daughters)never knew anything about his family except that he had a sister in Wellington. He would not speak of family or his history - ever.
Nelly's mother Elizabeth Warlow/Newman was local. She was a widow by the time of this marriage and ran a boarding house for miners. She was Nellys only family ( a sister had previously moved to Australia)
Yes. James was a tall solid man and dark complexion. Brown hair. There is no doubt that he was a miner .
I have found 2 more clues today!
remembered I had a old photo postcard sent by James from Egypt during WWI. It is addressed Dear Mother and Will and at the end says "remember to Syd and Jean"
Also the youngest of my Aunts told me today that she once went to Wellington to stay with an aunt ( James sister) called Ruth and gave me the address she stayed at. That checked out on electoral roll as Noel and Ruth Underhill, 72 Donald Street, Karori, Wellington
So that fits with the passenger list names on Fifeshire 1907? - except does that show James as 5?? Not fitting?
Im also confused about what I can learn from Emma Scott probate info but I'm sure you good folk will tell me ;)
Lucy2
The police gazette info is very interesting- and yes, I would say thats Grandad! He was a drinker and known to be a fighter when drunk- little doubt about that. And he was covered in tattos! I remember them well - I was fascinated by them. Yes, one on his arm with a name.
But as yet I'm still not up to figuring out how my Grandad James, aka Jim, nickname Sarge became Summers as so far everything here is about Scotts ?
So James stated his mother was Emily Scott - is this wrong, where is she? Am I missing something?
Well actually I think I'm missing a whole lot and you guys are way ahead of me! But it is so appreciated and I am enjoying the ride!
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Welcome back Gail Johns
Am I dumb or something ???
No, please don't think that. :) You are doing very well ... especially in presenting information to us ... and digging up these new clues. :) Great work on your part !!
I agree there has been a focus on the SCOTT family to date (and I too am a little confused and finding it difficult to follow in places.)
But what is happening is that fellow RootsChatters from various parts of the world are combining here to give their expertise in different fields (... I think I'm the only fellow Kiwi ? ). And, once all the information gathering has taken place, one or two of us will be able to give you a summary. So please don't fret at the moment about not understanding certain things ... and do of course feel free to ask questions. :)
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The photo postcard (great find !) :
Does that mean that James when referring to "Mother", is addressing Emma (SCOTT) ??? ["Will", I take it, is "William SCOTT, Emma's grandson ?? ]
I have some further thoughts to share on the Emma SCOTT / James SUMMERS "relationship" ... and also the "other" James SUMMERS who lived on the West Coast (whom I think I've now sorted out ;D). Will have to wait until later this evening before I can post this.
And thanks for the info about Ruth ... I had been looking at "her" just today. Have more info to come.
Interesting re: Police Gazette findings (I hadn't altogether imagined it would be your James ? ). Had thrown it in the mix here, because I thought it might help in flushing out his namesake(s).
Did you manage to read the Police Gazettes online ? Wasn't sure either if you had access to Ancestry.com ?
~ Lu
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It sounds as though you have access to more information than you realize. You need to talk with your close relatives, and go through the items....postcard, photos etc...that are in your family.
It would greatly assist the several people here who are trying to determine the origins of your James SUMMERS.
Your James SUMMERS would seem to be connected to the SCOTT family.
The death certificate for Emma SCOTT will account for her children....male / female.....with ages....living / deceased. With that information you can look to find these children in earlier records...births / baptisms / marriages / deaths / census....to see where James SUMMERS might fit in.
When Emma SCOTT dies you know that her family are around, so the information on her death certificate is likely to be accurate.
You need to find out what information already exists among your family about James SUMMERS.
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Will of Noel John UNDERHILL (of Wellington NZ) can be viewed here >
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE46594073
~ Lu
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If you don’t have ancestry access to the Police Gazette, it can be viewed here
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/periodicals/new-zealand-police-gazette
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The death certificate for Emma SCOTT will account for her children....male / female.....with ages....living / deceased. With that information you can look to find these children in earlier records...births / baptisms / marriages / deaths / census....to see where James SUMMERS might fit in.
Unfortunately, a New Zealand Death record, (and the "printout" version is the preferable purchase), will not give you information regarding deceased issue.
From NZ BDM website > "If living issue, the number, age, and sex" ... is what is recorded.
~ Lu
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Hello Wivenhoe - thanks for your help
The family have really exhausted all the info available, we have been talking about this mystery for 30years!
James was totally closed about his family and his past. His family - 2 sons deceased (Bruce and Albert) 4 daughters, Ruth ( my mum) 89, Elizabeth 87, Nelly 85 and Doris 79. It was Doris who today found the address of Ruth in Wellington. My Mum reminded me about the photo postcard which I hadnt seen for sometime - she has dementia but had a flash of something useful today!
One question I do have regarding the mention in his NZ Army record of previous service in the Royal Garrison Artillery. How would I be able to confirm this? I looked up Forces War Record and found James Summers listed multiple times. Only 2 were for dates other than WW1 years. When I asked how I could confirm if any were my relative I got confusing replies but basically saying I should hire a researcher. It may be a "red herring" but I hoped it may be another avenue to check and maybe get some dates from?
UPDATE: I have ordered the death cert of Emma Scott - it will take some time though - Covid and all that
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Have you tried Find My Past for British military records?
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Likely birth of Ruth in March qtr 1904
SCOTT, RUTH
Mother's Maiden Surname: BUCK
GRO Reference: 1904 M Quarter in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE Volume 10B Page 168
NZ BDM
Marriage, 11 May 1927
Noel John Underhill + Ruth Scott
Death, 1 July 1991
Ruth Underhill
born 6 January 1904
Scott's arriving in NZ in Dec 1907? On the Fifeshire
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRS8-MZ?i=3&cc=1609792
James on the voyage in 1907 could be
SCOTT, JAMES
Mother's Maiden Surname: BUCK
GRO Reference: 1901 D Quarter in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE Volume 10B Page 172
i.e. not James Summers, but another James. Hopefully connected.
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But as yet I'm still not up to figuring out how my Grandad James, aka Jim, nickname Sarge became Summers as so far everything here is about Scotts ?
Gail, the evidence suggests that there could well be a connection between James Summers and the Scott family from Northumberland.
This is why we've been looking at the Scott family back in Northumberland before their emigration in the hope of finding some clues which might help us understand the connection.
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Have you tried Find My Past for British military records?
Problem is we don't all have subs.
For James Summers I can see nothing much indexed
For James Scott, among many is a WO 96 militia record of one born 1886, Northumberland
Northumberland Artillery, no 3746
Probably no connection, can't see the record anyway!
Wivenhoe said James Summers was a six footer?
I saw that he was 5 foot 11 from the army record?
The police gazettes found by Lucy have
James Summers b America 1886 at 5 foot 6.5 inches
and
James Summers b England 1888 at 5 foot 9.5 inches
Strange if those tattoos weren't mentioned on the army record, since Gail says her grandfather had them. The MAGGIE tattoo switched arms between 1911 and 1928?
Army say grey eyes.
Just in case, sorry! But just mention a James Scott in the Police Gazette, tried at Wellington, 28.5.10
Stowaway
Native of England
occupation Miner
born 1886
5 foot 8.5
Dark brown hair
Blue eyes
Arms covered in tattoos, though no mention of MAGGIE!
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Probably totally unrelated, but I'm just throwing this one for consideration:
In 1901 Emma, daughter Jane, and grandsons James B and William are living at 41 Molineux Street, Heaton. (reply #18)
There is this Enlistment into the Royal Engineers with the rank of sapper on 8th September 1904:
James Scott aged 18 years and 1 month (i.e. probably born August 1887) see edit born Morpeth, occupation joiner.
Mother: Emily Scott, 27 Molineux Street, Heaton.
But...brother John (Australia) :-\
Discharged 28th September 1904, having been irregularly enlisted :-\
Height 5' 8½" :-\
Edit of course I got the year of birth wrong (calculated from his age) I should have said 1886 :-X
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Mother: Emily Scott, 27 Molineux Street, Heaton.
1905 - 1907 Electoral Rolls shows an Emma Scott at 27 Molineux Street.
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Brilliant stuff, Jen.
Looks like he must be James B.
I can't see any James Scott b 1887 plus/minus a whopping 5 years, with a mother Emma/Emily born or living in Northumberland.
Plus your address find.
Did he have a dark complexion and was he already collecting tattoos? ;D
Why though does he say mother is Emily rather than Emma? James Summers in NZ apparently said his mother was Emily? Though it's not an uncommon switch, Emma Scott is always found as Emma?
I guess we are still a way away from knowing whether James Summers might be James B Scott.
Coming up, another possible Underhill link to the Scott family in NZ.
NB Can now search on ancestry using wildcards and just two letters!
We can look for W*m and H*y. And Em*!
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Did Ruth's sister Edna also marry an Underhill?
NZ BDM
Marriage, 6 January 1926
Arthur Stevens Underhill + Edna Scott
1928 electoral register, Wellington Suburbs
15 Mitchell Street
Arthur Stevens Underhill, marine enginer
Edna Underhill, married
27 Mitchell Street
Ruth Underhill, married
Death in NZ, 7 October 1988
Edna Scott Underhill
d-o-b 2 October 1899
Poss birth reg in England in Dec qtr 1899.
SCOTT, EDNA
Mother's Maiden Surname: BUCK
GRO Reference: 1899 D Quarter in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE Volume 10B Page 168
Couple of passenger lists for Edna
Here is one with Arthur from 1966, on the Ellinis, embarked at Southampton.
Disembarked Wellington
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6GNY-T5?i=16&cc=1609792
Probate for both Ruth and Edna Underhill.
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Just in case, sorry! But just mention a James Scott in the Police Gazette, tried at Wellington, 28.5.10
Stowaway
Native of England
occupation Miner
born 1886
5 foot 8.5
Dark brown hair
Blue eyes
Arms covered in tattoos, though no mention of MAGGIE!
James 'son' of Emily/Emma of Molineux Street Heaton (Enlistment papers reply #67) was 5' 8½", blue eyes, dark brown hair.
Edit: a news paper report of the Wellington trial in the Grey River Argus reports that Scott was 6' tall and of 'comely build'. He and two others had stowed away on a journey from Greymouth to Wellington.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/grey-river-argus/1910/09/01/1 article headed 'Why they stowed away'.
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According to whatsinaname Emily can be a pet name for Emma (and vice versa).
http://www.whatsinaname.net/female-names/Emma.html
James Scott and Emma Judgson did have a daughter called Emma born Jul- Sep 1872 Rothbury RD.
She is showing with the family in the 1881 census but I lose sight of her thereafter .... although in the 1891 census there is an Emily Scott born Rothbury age 18 showing as a general servant domestic in Felton with the Darling family. Might this be her? ( Clearly she would be quite young to be James B's mother but is worth considering as a possibility ?).
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:H3LC-L3Z
William
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I wondered if there was a daughter of the same name. She does seem rather too young to be mother of James, but it would be good to know what happened to her.
Ditto Edward b circa 1870, presume he had gone on ahead to NZ, but I'm not sure really. I ask because his family have become further involved, what with auntie Ruth.
What I really want to know is, what was the true height of James Summers!
John
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Re Edward Scott Newcastle Electoral Rolls have him at 143 Warwick Street in 1900 and 1902(same as in 1901 census) and at 141 Warwick Street in 1903, 1904 and 1905.
William
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Another to add to the brew :D
14th August 1909 a James B Scott, single, a miner, departed Liverpool for Sydney.
He arrived in Sydney 5th October 1909. His onward destination, apparently was Wellington.
Edit Can probably scrap that one :-[ he arrived Wellington 12th October, birthplace Scotland.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DTSH-DY?i=7&cc=1609792&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AV1M5-2C5
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Hi JenB
All this research is fascinating - i would never have thought there were so many avenues to information! That is why I hadn't got very far obviously. You seem to be coming up with some real gems - thank you.
The story about the stowaways has made me smile - its entirely possible as Grandad was known as a real rough diamond and a bit of a "chancer" all of his life.
Hello Millmoor and Johnw65 - regarding your thoughts that the Emma b1872 that you've found seems young to be James B's mother - in another family branch I'm working on there are several "mothers" at 14 and 15. I'm sure you'll be following up though :)
I'm really loving this - fascinating and so helpful, cheers all!
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Hi Gail
Thank you! I have certainly found this a highly interesting search to contribute to.
Just to say that if it were me I would purchase the birth cert. for James Brewis Scott as identified in post 25 by Jonw and as discussed by Jon and JenB. This would not only give his date of birth but also give his mother's name.
Can I also say that having encountered lots of illegitimate births in researching my own tree I have been struck how often they occur in the same branch of a family. In this regard it is worth noting that it looks like James B Smith was illegitimate and that his mother may well have been a daughter of James Smith and Emma Judgson. Emma Judgson was herself illegitimate, being the daughter of Jessica Judgson. It would appear that Jessica had three children out of wedlock,Mary Ann, Emma and William. Jessica was herself illegitimate as her parents Thomas Judgson and Mary Anderson did not marry until after Jessica was born.
Without wishing to digress too much the Judgson family are intriguing to look at. As indicted in a previous post Thomas Judgson left a will.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-67N7-YJ4?i=549&cc=2365059
Now according to this Jessica Judgson was not only a beneficiary of her father's will but also of her aunt also called Jessica but by 1871 she is recorded as a washerwoman. Her brothers seem to "disappear" from Rothbury after 1841 - I eventually tracked them down to Pontiac, Quebec, Canada.
And I leave you with this certainly intriguing piece from the Newcastle Chronicle 23 Oct 1888 " The good folk of Coquetdale would be delighted to learn something of the life of the late Colonel Judgson of Carterside near Rothbury and the regiment to which he belonged . The late General Shadforth, of Durham, informed me that he was wine taster to George IV., and one of his boon companions when Prince of Wales".
William
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Just to say that if it were me I would purchase the birth cert. for James Brewis Scott as identified in post 25 by Jonw and as discussed by Jon and JenB. This would not only give his date of birth but also give his mother's name.
William
I agree!!
Maureen
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Before William posted I was about to post the following thoughts put together using information provided by the many contributors to this thread. So I will do so anyway!
In his NZ military papers James Summers states he is the brother of a Mrs Smith of Harworth Cottage Ngaio, later of 26 Hospital Road Wellington, and that he was born in Northumberland in August 1887.
From other documentation we know that Mrs Smith was the wife of a Sydney Smith, and was formerly Jane Scott, daughter of Emma Scott.
In his NZ military papers William Scott states that he is the son of Mrs Emma Scott of Harworth Cottage, Ngaio, later of 26 Hospital Road Wellington. He states born Newcastle upon Tyne in 1893. Before joining up he was storeman at Whitcombe & Tombs of Wellington.
But in her will of 1919 Emma states that William, ‘currently with the New Zealand Expeditionary Force but formerly storeman at Whitcombe and Tombs, Wellington’ is her grandson.
We know from another NZ document that the said Emma Scott was born in Rothbury, Northumberland, and indeed she appears as such in English censuses 1861 to 1901. Living with her in 1891 are daughter Jane and grandson James B. With her in 1901 are daughter Jane, and grandsons James B. and William.
When James died his name was given as James Bruce Summers. There is the birth of a James Brewis Scott in Northumberland 3rd q1887, mother’s surname Scott.
My feeling is that James B. Summers and James B. Scott are more than likely one and the same.
I am wondering if, from birth, James and William lived with their grandmother Emma and possibly even believed her to be their mother. Hence James Summers (if he and James Scott are one and the same) stating that Jane Smith nee Scott was his sister (Jane was only 7 years older than him) and William stating that Emma was his mother.
Gail, I agree with William and Maureen. If it were me I would most definitely purchase James Brewis Scott’s birth certificate. If you decide to do this and need guidance, do come back to us.
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JenB - thank you!
I have spent some time working through this in the past day or so and I have come up with the conclusion as you have described it. Certainly that James B was most likely Emma Scott's grandson !
Yes I will definitely order that birth certificate - hopefully that will help .
I had not looked into William at any stage because actually I didn't know he existed - but now the postcard to "Dear Mother and Will" takes on some meaning. As does "remember to Syd Jean"
I guess we'll never know why he became James Summers and changed our family history forever ???
Many thanks Millmoor - your research going further back is awesome - somewhere I hadnt even thought of going yet ::)
My focus was only on James and where he came from - but obviously looking back a bit further brings all sorts of links and I'll be following that trail soon :)
I still wonder though why he named Robert Summers, farmer , as his father on his marriage certificate - maybe that was made up as he didnt want to have a blank? Or maybe he knew something?
I will continue to read through all of the information so many of you have provided - there are still plenty of gems I need to get my head around and links to follow!
Actually the links you have all posted are teaching me about other places to search for information - my knowledge in that area is so limited.
My next question - how do I order that birth certificate? I think I know but then I've learnt here that what I "think I know" falls short in many ways ;)
Kind regards to all
Gail
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Hi
Best thing to do is to order a pdf of the birth registration. It will cost just £7
Do this from the GRO website, you will need to register if you haven't already
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
From the birth index search (you need to specify a sex!)
Name:
SCOTT, JAMES BREWIS
Mother's Maiden Surname: -
GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in CASTLE WARD Volume 10B Page 281
When you select that you can then order as pdf (or certificate of you prefer)
Good luck!
John
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Good morning folks - I'm back ;D
I have received both Emma Scotts death certificate AND the birth certificate of James Brewis Scott!
Very exciting and both in under a week too.
So I wish I could figure out how to attach the printouts I got but no such luck
But the things you want to n
know are as follows:
Emma Scotts death cert lists parents as John Judson , farmer and Emma Judson
Her birthplace as Rothbury, England 20 years in NZ
Married at Rothbury, England at age 20 to James Scott
Living issue - 1 Female age 47
James Brewis Scott birth certificate
Date as we expected 28 Aug 1887 at Glororum, Stannington
Mothers Name Elizabeth Scott
No fathers name
Informant Elizabeth Scott, mother, address Glororum, Stannington
Registerd on 4 Oct 1887
Thats it - no father information at all and Elizabeth, not Emily as James gave on his marriage cert ???
What do we make of that?
Gail
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Thanks for getting back to us. You did very well to receive your certs. so quickly.
My immediate reactions are two fold. Firstly it does not surprise me that James Brewis Scott's mother is Elizabeth Scott. Elizabeth Scott was the eldest daughter of James and Emma Scott - birth in Rothbury RD Jul -Sep 1868. As Jenb stated in her latest post James may have been brought up by his grandmother and thought she was his mother.
It would certainly be of interest now if we could work out what happened to Elizabeth Scott.
Re Emma Scott and the parents named on her death cert. it is worth observing that the information is as given by the informant and may not always be correct. Does it give the name of the informant? It for sure does not totally square with the information I have given in previous posts and adds to the mystery. It would mean further expense but to find out more about Emma Judgson I think I would wish to obtain her marriage and birth certs.
William
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William - the informant named on the death cert is the undertaker.
can you please clarify for me which certificates I should obtain next? I keep getting confused with the Emma Scott/Emma Judgson thing - I lose the thread very quickly
Thanks
Gail
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James Brewis Scott birth certificate
Date as we expected 28 Aug 1887 at Glororum, Stannington
Mothers Name Elizabeth Scott
No fathers name
Informant Elizabeth Scott, mother, address Glororum, Stannington
Registerd on 4 Oct 1887
Well done. Now we can be pretty confident that James B Scott and James B Summers really are one and the same. i wonder why he changed his surname?
Looking at Emma's children I'd wondered if Elizabeth might turn out to be James's mother.
As William has said it will be interesting now to see if we can find out what happened to her.
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Possible
Marriage 1893 Morpeth 10b 534
Scott, Elizabeth
Todd, John
In Hirst in 1901
piece 4836 folio 11 page 13
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS9M-QZS
John Todd 33
Elizh Todd 32 born Northumberland Rothbury
Three children, Edith, 7, Ethel, 3, Eva, 3 months.
TODD, EDITH
Mother's Maiden Surname: SCOTT
GRO Reference: 1894 J Quarter in MORPETH Volume 10B Page 389
TODD, ETHEL
Mother's Maiden Surname: SCOTT
GRO Reference: 1897 S Quarter in MORPETH Volume 10B Page 421
TODD, EVA
Mother's Maiden Surname: SCOTT
GRO Reference: 1901 M Quarter in MORPETH Volume 10B Page 433
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Remembering as well that the Scott family was in Hirst in 1891.
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Possible death of Elizabeth aged 40, 2nd q 1909, Morpeth 10b, 246
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Might the death found by JenB be related to an entry in the County Asylums and Hospitals - UK Lunacy Patients Admission Registers ?
Todd Elizth -Date of Admission: 11 April 1909 -Asylum: Morpeth - Date of Death: 14 April 1909
William
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Re Emma Judgson/ Judson I think I would endeavour to obtain her birth certificate :
Judgson Emma
1846 S Quarter in Rothbury Volume 25 Page 589
And her marriage to James Scott
1866 April - Jun Rothbury Vol 10B
And just to add here is a link to the transcription of the baptism of Emma Judgson which I found ( I assume that the mother's name is a mistranscription of Jessica - and note no father is named).
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QP45-BL3F
Hope this helps
William
PS Try having a look at the British Newspaper Archive - do a free search for "Colonel Judson" in the year 1866. The first three"hits" are for the marriage of James Scott and Emma Judson - in the Shield Daily News, Morpeth Herald and Newcastle Courant and they state that they married at Harbottle Presbyterian Church on the 16th June 1866 and that she was the granddaughter of Colonel Judson of Carterside near Rothbury and for many years senior partner of the eminent firm of George Storey and Co ., brewers, Rothbury
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Good morning good people who have helped so much, so far!
Millmoor
It seems you were right re Emma Judgson/Scotts birth. The certificate PDF has arrived
She was born September 1946 ( cant quite decipher date so far, its a very faded text) born in the Rothbury workhouse to Jesica Judgson, no father named and the informant was" Robert Graham , Master of Workhouse, Rothbury"
This birth cert ties in with the info you gave me sometime back, reply#55, regarding "Jessy Judgson in the Rothbury workhouse and the Sept 1946 baptism of Emma
It seems the Judgson family had a few illegitimate children and it also seems that Emma "escaped" life in the workhouse, married and ended up in NZ in her old age
So now I think I'd like to follow up on Elizabeth who we're so far thinking is Emma's daughter and James B's mother.
As time allows I will read back through all your hints and try to find a pathway to that goal. - any further hints MOST welcome!
Still have the mystery of when/why James became Summers - maybe just picked a name for a new life or the small possibility that somewhere along the way he had been told who his father was? Doesn't seem so likely though, if he grew up thinking Emma Scott was his mother?
But if he thought she was his mother why not name her as such on his marriage certificate??
So many questions - but I (with a LOT of help) have come a long way from where I was
Kind regards to all
Gail
Updated - Master of workhouse
Thanks JenB for that info - where do you find this stuff, I'm in awe! :)
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She was born September 1946 ( cant quite decipher date so far, its a very faded text) born in the Rothbury workhouse to Jesica Judgson, no father named and the informant was" Robert Graham ........ ( undechiperable word) of Workhouse, Rothbury"
In 1851 a Robert Graham was Master of Rothbury Workhouse - that must be your missing word.
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I think you said that you have ordered this record, and waiting to receive it? -
BDM NZ death
1927/7602 SCOTT Emma 80Y
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Hello Wivenhoe
Yes I now have Emma Scotts death certificate but the information on that is different to that on the birth certificate
Emma Scott, widow died 4/9/1927 at 21 Coromandel Street, Wellington
20 years in NZ
Parents named are John Judson, farmer and mother Emma Judson ( maiden name blank)
Born Rothbury England, married at 20, husband James Scott
Living issue F 47
Informant is undertaker
I received this cert at same time as the birth cert for James Brewis Scott
Details of both posted here in reply #82 August 6th
:) :) :)
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So now I think I'd like to follow up on Elizabeth who we're so far thinking is Emma's daughter and James B's mother.
Replies #86 to #89 are possibly relevant.
Morpeth Asylum records are held at Northumberland Archives.
Updated - Master of workhouse
Thanks JenB for that info - where do you find this stuff, I'm in awe! :)
Easy - I looked up Robert Graham living in Rothbury in the 1851 census :)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGXW-XHZ
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Thank you JenB
I have been looking at those replies re the Todd family and considering whether to order one of those certificates for Elizabeth - still pondering on which one might be most useful?
I am definitely interested in the Morpeth Asylum records - how do you access the Northumberland Archives?
I havent searched yet - I will have a hunt when I have a moment free ;)
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Very unusually, some records of the Morpeth asylum seem to be available at LDS Family History Centres.
England, Northumberland, Morpeth St. George's Hospital Asylum records, 1859-1913
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/2845615?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Also, for anyone interested, a "Transcript of the register of patients at St. Georges Asylum, Morpeth, 1859-1890"
Item 8
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/989058?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Hidden away in the catalogue on FamilySearch under Morpeth / Medical records!
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Hello Jon
Thanks for still being there! :)
does that mean the records you've linked above are only available if you go to one of the LDS centres in person? Sorry I'm not very familiar with all the information sources you guys mention.
I'm in "small town NZ" and not much available to us in comparison to your sources - thats why this has been such an overwhelming lot of info for me.
Thanks
Gail
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Hi Gail
Yes, as things stand, sadly it means that you can only view the films at a FHC.
There are probably more records at Woodhorn than the LDS have filmed, but I just wondered if it might give you another option, if not now, then maybe later. The archive in Northumberland is a long way away!
Or someone might be able to do a look up (at either!)
John
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Hi Gail,
I've been researching my Underhill/Scott ancestors and I came across this chat.
My grand mother was Edna Underhill and Ruth Underhill was my great aunt. I knew them well.
I might have some family history that could add to your search.