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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Zaphod99 on Friday 31 July 20 10:20 BST (UK)
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Periodically I help an elderly relative with the post that she receives. I recently came across an old letter dated 1967. Quite innocently I opened it, to find a letter home from her late husband who was working overseas. It is a treasure of family history, but I really don't know what to do about it. Physically she is in good health, but her mind is sadly another matter. Should I preserve the letter discreetly for future generations? If I do nothing the letter will ultimately be lost. If I asked her about it she would not understand. Quite how it came to be in with her current post I do not know, she was using it as a mat for her cup of tea.
Zaph
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As you are related, preserve it. Ideally, digitally.
Regards
Chas
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Surely that letter is the sole property of the elderly relative whatever the state of her mind. You don't have any right to preserve it for information for yourself and future generations without her consent, it was after all a personal letter to her from her husband. The trouble is we tend to look at these type of letters as our family history and expect to have it shared with us, we don't actually have this right with other peoples property.
Have you tried having any conversation with her about it.
Kiltpin,
Surely either removing the letter from her possesion or taking copies of it without her consent is technically theft :-\
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Surely it depends on the nature of any agreement you have with her as to what you do with her post.
Are you sorting/discarding/dealing with issues on her behalf - if so this is just one of those issues.
Pheno
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Eventually things will need to be sorted out at a later date, whoever does this will be the person to decide, personally if it was me which had that job I would preserve it, sadly when my mother died my brother decided a letter we found should go with her, and it did, I feel sorry about that now, would have been something my granddaughter would have been interested in.
Keep your eye eye it till you have to decide eventually but it is a sensitive matter
Louisa Maud
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You could gently ask her if she would give you permission to retain that letter in safe keeping as it is of significant historical value and a tender reminder of her late husband.
I have several elderly living relatives and in law relatives who have given me the responsibility of sorting their personal papers and I have recorded their oral histories using various items as the starting point in each conversation..
Sometimes it is a letter or a postcard, other times a photo, and once it was a hat. Amazing what memories can reach back .... :)
JM
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Kiltpin,
Surely either removing the letter from her possesion or taking copies of it without her consent is technically theft
Taking someone else's possessions with out their permission is theft. I fail to see how taking a copy could be construed as theft. Unethical, maybe. The only person who could possibly complain is the copyright holder or his inheritor. The copyright holder is, we have been told, is dead. His inheritor is unknown. It might be the elderly relative, but might not.
Consider this. What if were not a letter, but rather a work of art - a watercolour, a charcoal sketch, a hand carved plaque, or one of the hundreds of things a person might make to pass the time while away from their family? Would it be acceptable to let that be destroyed?
I don't think so.
Regards
Chas
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In my opinion a very delicate subject
Louisa Maud
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I agree with Rosie and others about theft. Does anyone have Powers of Attorney? If so, it is probably their responsibility.
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I may have misunderstood.
Presumably Zaphod is helping the elderly relative by sorting the mail into 'junk', 'needing action (ie bills)' etc., and assisting with follow up action.
'Junk' mail may have been agreed to be disposed of and therefore can be thrown away accordingly, as pre-authorised action.
The found letter isn't 'needing action' or 'junk'.
It should therefore be preserved (possibly in a safer place than being used as a coaster), as the authorisation doesn't cover it.
I don't see that this would be unethical, or compromising anyone's privacy or ownership.
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As you are related, preserve it. Ideally, digitally.
I'm not sure that I agree - preserve both if possible, an original is always preferable to a copy. Digital formats may not last for ever ::)
I would have thought that if you have been given access to these letters you should be able to ask permission to arrange safe keeping for some of them ?
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The legal owner of any mail is the person it is addressed to.
I suggest this specific personal letter is put back into the bottom of the lady's underwear drawer and a more appropriate coaster for her teacup be found.
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Periodically I help an elderly relative with the post that she receives. I recently came across an old letter dated 1967. Quite innocently I opened it, to find a letter home from her late husband who was working overseas. It is a treasure of family history, but I really don't know what to do about it. Physically she is in good health, but her mind is sadly another matter. Should I preserve the letter discreetly for future generations? If I do nothing the letter will ultimately be lost. If I asked her about it she would not understand. Quite how it came to be in with her current post I do not know, she was using it as a mat for her cup of tea.
Zaph
Zaph you mention you help an elderly relative with the post she receives, did she ask you to do this or are you doing this on your own volition as an act of kindness? If the first then you have her authority to place it in safe keeping, preferably in her house but it could be kept safe elsewhere if that is the only alternative.
Keep in mind if you do put it in safe keeping if she asks you for it you must give it to her, no matter what she wants to do with it.
It may have been in her current post as she knew what it was and wanted to keep it with her post at all times as comfort that her husband was still writing to her.
I know you said her late husband but in her confused mind her husband may still be alive and that letter could be her link to him.
Cheers
Guy
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Good thinking Guy
Louisa Maud
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I agree with Guy, it should be kept safely, she may have kept it for sentimental reasons, in a more lucid moment she may ask for it.
It is not for you to dispose of the letter or copy it. When the time comes and she has sadly gone, that decision will be for her Executors, or if intestate, whoever is granted Administration.
I always feel there is something intrusive in publicising the contents of personal letters between a husband and wife After their decease, even to other family members, unless they made it known during their lifetime that they didn't mind what was done with them.
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Not much of a dilemma here to me. You're looking after this woman and seen something of hers that you would like. Of course you can't just take it.
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Wow, does it always get this heated? I asked a simple question, not intending to start a war. There are two extremes here, let's discuss them, not fight.
I did initially say "Physically she is in good health, but her mind is sadly another matter." We do have Power Of Attorney (POA) and I hadn't actually thought about applying that. However, I almost think that is irrelevant here. We can make financial decisions, residential decisions, health decisions, etc. She is beyond caring about trivialities like letters from 50 years ago, but I do struggle ethically about the letter.
I photographed it and read it. Am I a bad person?
Zaph
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Wow, does it always get this heated? I asked a simple question, not intending to start a war. There are two extremes here, let's discuss them, not fight.
I did initially say "Physically she is in good health, but her mind is sadly another matter." We do have Power Of Attorney (POA) and I hadn't actually thought about applying that. However, I almost think that is irrelevant here. We can make financial decisions, residential decisions, health decisions, etc. She is beyond caring about trivialities like letters from 50 years ago, but I do struggle ethically about the letter.
I photographed it and read it. Am I a bad person?
Zaph
No
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Wow, does it always get this heated? I asked a simple question, not intending to start a war. There are two extremes here, let's discuss them, not fight.
I did initially say "Physically she is in good health, but her mind is sadly another matter." We do have Power Of Attorney (POA) and I hadn't actually thought about applying that. However, I almost think that is irrelevant here. We can make financial decisions, residential decisions, health decisions, etc. She is beyond caring about trivialities like letters from 50 years ago, but I do struggle ethically about the letter.
I photographed it and read it. Am I a bad person?
Zaph
No
I agree with no, you are not a bad person.
Regards
Chas
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Wow, does it always get this heated? I asked a simple question, not intending to start a war. There are two extremes here, let's discuss them, not fight.
I did initially say "Physically she is in good health, but her mind is sadly another matter." We do have Power Of Attorney (POA) and I hadn't actually thought about applying that. However, I almost think that is irrelevant here. We can make financial decisions, residential decisions, health decisions, etc. She is beyond caring about trivialities like letters from 50 years ago, but I do struggle ethically about the letter.
I photographed it and read it. Am I a bad person?
Zaph
No
I agree with no, you are not a bad person.
Regards
Chas
I certainly don't think you're a bad person either. You asked a question and we all gave our personal opinions, which hopefully helped you make a decision you are happy with after you'd weighed up all the pros and cons
Best wishes,
Rena
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I see no heat, nor fighting.
You asked for opinions, what you do is entirely up to you.
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As I see it, you are doing exactly what is expected. It is a family matter, irrespective of what Red Tape dictates. I have had the unfortunate experience of doing the same as yourself, as will many others. Keep on doing what you are doing, and I wish you well for your endeavours. More power to your elbow.
Curiosity is a very natural instinct and opening that letter is understandable. I would probably have done the same. But then I would have wondered why it was unopened, and why it had suddenly appeared (as a coaster).
One of the successes I had was going through old photographs and discussing them. The results were amazing, their old memories came flooding back where short term memories were practically non-existent. I would want to know why the letter was unopened, there must surely have been a reason, so perhaps a 'memory session' might give an answer.
The very best wishes to you,
Colin
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At the start of the year the family had to sort out things from my grandma's flat as she was moving and she couldn't do it herself. There were receipts from 20 plus years ago and all sorts of stuff unopened. In a wardrobe were about 60 letters from my granddad which spanned their breakup till a court case involving my sibling and me (about a 6 year period) that nobody in the family knew about and that my grandma never spoke of.
The family didn't think it was in my grandma's best interest to mention them as it would bring worries to her that wouldn't be needed, my mum wanted to burn them, my uncle wanted me to have them and my sibling and I wanted them to try and get to know more about our granddad as we never really saw him after being infants. My mum and sibling read them in any order and made the conclusion that he was stalking her, but I read them in order and believe the idea was that he couldnt accept that she had finally left her after 30 years of marriage and wanted her back. It is a complicated story, and I was never really interested in him till a few months ago when I read the letters and now I have been trying to find more info on him.
So I would say keep the letter.
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What was her state of mind in 1967?
If she was using it as a coaster, did she already know what it was, who it was from, and did she wish opened?
It seems on the face of it, Yes, Yes and NO.
It would seem that the letter has been in her possession for circa 53 years now.
An unopened letter from her late husband may be the only thing that she has, as direct contact with him from the past, plus, considering that she kept under her tea cup, which she would have used daily, she probably have wished it stayed that way.
Malky (giving a personal opinion)
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One thing I should clarify is that when I said I opened the letter, I meant that I removed the letter from an already unsealed envelope. With regards to why it was being used as a drinks mat, I think the family member would have just opened the drawer and used anything. Clearly she was aware that it would be a good idea to protect the table surface, but she would have used anything. In 1967 she was totally OK.
One interesting thing that the letter did reveal is the nickname of another family member. We had always wondered at what age this happened, and the letter revealed that this name was in use before she was even two years old.
One thing I have discovered while caring for this relative is that you sometimes have to do things that in normal situations would not be acceptable. Occasionally you have to to tell untruths. Occasionally you have to give people guidance that you normally wouldn't. Also you can't help but laugh at some of the things that happen.
Zaph
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One thing I have discovered while caring for this relative is that you sometimes have to do things that in normal situations would not be acceptable. Occasionally you have to to tell untruths. Occasionally you have to give people guidance that you normally wouldn't. Also you can't help but laugh at some of the things that happen.
Zaph
Yes, my Mum had dementia and in the difficult years before her death it was apparent that conversations which left her comfortable and reassured were much more important than applying absolute truth which in fact she was unable to appreciate.
I think it sounds as if you are doing a great job both for her and the rest of your family and your ethical concerns to “do the right thing” are commendable.
Well done and best wishes to you.
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After my father died I started looking after my mother's financial affairs - not via Power of Attorney, she still had "all her chairs at home" but because she had never taken any part in the financial matters of the household, never used the joint account, never written a cheque - my father took care of everything.
After he died I looked through the (unopened) official mail - it contained among other things two new and unsigned credit cards in his name. This was before pin numbers, and any visitor (there were a lot at the time) could have taken them, signed them and used them to run up thousands in debt before the next statement arrived. So, yes, there are occasions when you might need to open other people's mail.
As to the OPs dilemma, the most ethical course has already been taken - it has been copied, but the original put in a safe place until the time comes, then it is a matter for the executors. No major issue here.
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It may have been in her current post as she knew what it was and wanted to keep it with her post at all times as comfort that her husband was still writing to her.
I know you said her late husband but in her confused mind her husband may still be alive and that letter could be her link to him.
I was thinking the same as Guy.
With regards to why it was being used as a drinks mat, I think the family member would have just opened the drawer and used anything. Clearly she was aware that it would be a good idea to protect the table surface, but she would have used anything.
But can you be 100% sure of this? Isn't it just possible that she had a moment of lucidity and recognised the letter/envelope for what it was, and took it out of the drawer, only to forget it again.
In the circumstances I would just put it back in the drawer where it came from. There will come a time when decisions have to be made about what to do with her ephemera. In the meantime, if you want to share what you read with other family members I think that would be fine.
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Could you put it (complete) into another envelope and write on that: ' To the executors. Do not destroy this letter. Please contact [your name]'. I do wonder though, as you have Power of Attorney, that you will be an Executor of her Will, or have to manage Probate? If that is a possibility, you will be able to decide what happens to it then.
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There have been some good comments here. The letter still serves as a coaster. She doesn't like change. In that respect she is very observant. If we try to leave her a reminder note for anything, it disappears over night. She doesn't recognise new clothes and house items as her own, but last week she identified a lady in a photo from 70 years ago, who had always been a mystery. The mind, even when damaged I'd amazing.
Zaph