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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: iwccc on Friday 07 August 20 02:31 BST (UK)
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As a baby boomer I am not clear on. how the Army works. for my research I need to know how the
2nd AIF was set up. I believe that the 2nd AIF was the 2nd "?" of the Australian Infantry Force.
then the order was "?" Battalions ---how many men were in a Battalion?
How many in a unit? etc.etc.
The soldier I am researching was in the 2/12th Battalion. He was from NSW but I am led to believe that this Battalion was mainly Tasmanians and men from Northern Queensland.
What was the order of command: eg. General, Commander etc. down to a Private.
How do I arrange a copy of his military record? His name is WalterCharles Horsfall NX11278. I need to know when he joined up and where he served. Was he always with the 2/12th. If not who was he serving with and what areas did he see combat. I believe he was mentioned in dispatches but as most of the unit was killed his heroic deed could not be awarded as there was no senior officers standing.
Any help would be much appreciated.
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2nd AIF was the second imperial force. The first was WW1.
To start to find out what his unit did start with the Australian War Memorial.
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/U56055
His records have not been digitised.
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There is an earlier thread on the same subject. Perhaps it can be linked to avoid duplication of effort.
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There is a page dedicated to William Charles Horsfall on Wikitree. Perhaps the profile manager may have relevant information.
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=829275.msg6936432#msg6936432
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Yes, agree with Nanna52, the I represented is for Imperial. Australia was not separated from Britain at the outbreak of WWII. We had not even got around to adopting the Statute of Westminster. It was not until after WWII that the concept of Austral iuan Citizenship developed, although Baby boomers born in Australia were born British Subjects.
To get your chap's military record, you need to apply to the National Archives of Australia, who will digitise them on payment of the fees because you can confirm he is deceased. (See the online index of deaths NSW bdm online, death more than 30 years, ago so the registration details... cert or official transcription... readilyavailable to release to general public)
The AWMs website that Nanna52 shared is very informative and explains the chain of command .
There are two excellent books about 2/12 Batt in WWII, vol 1 and vol 2 ... perhaps you can arrange for your local public library to organise an inter library loan.
To learn when he joined, his rank, nok, was discharged etc, you could look for a summary under his NX service number at the WWII nominal roll. If he was Mentioned in Despatches you should find that noted on his service record.
JM.
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Thanks Nanna. I appreciate your help
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Thanks Brentorboy for your suggestions. Much appreciated
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Thank you majm, Very helpful. I have already got the two volumes of "of Storms and Rainbows' - history of 2/12th from an interlibrary loan. Very interesting. It shows what the2/12 were involved in but my problem is how to link that to my uncle's service. I believe he changed units etc over the period of the war so I really need his personal record to find the dates of when he was in one place or another.
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=829275.msg6936432#msg6936432
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Can anyone help me? I am trying to find the actual records of a soldier in WW2. He was at one stage a Rat of Tobruk and later was called out of this unit to join his brother in another.
I am keen to trace the battles in which he fought, what life was like. I believe he put his age up to join up. I can find his basis record but need help In tracing the other information. His name is Walter Charles Horsfall NX 11278. enlisted at Paddington NSW. He apparently was 'a last man standing' in one particular incident could not get a citation for it as there were no officers still alive - or so I am led to believe. Any help would be greatly appreciated as his family know nothing of his time in the Army and we now feel it is time to find. out more. Thank you.
Re your uncle ...
Perhaps you could look up the nominal roll for his brother's unit - afterall, he too would be your uncle? and then check to see if that brother's service file for 2nd AIF service has been digitised. That would likely go a long way towards determining the unit they both served in together.
Walter's NSW birth registration is indexed online at the free to search index of the NSWBDM :
Walter C HORSFALL, parents as William H and Sarah, registered Parramatta District. Ref 11874/1920. His date of birth drills down to 2 December 1919 at the online link : https://www.nsw.gov.au/topics/family-history-search So I do not understand any concern about him adjusting his age to enlist.
The B883 Series at the NAA are for the Second Australian Imperial Force Personnel Dossiers, 1939-1947. Their website notes : The National Archives will digitise all records in these series by June 2023. Records will be progressively added to RecordSearch as they are digitised and will be available free of charge. If you wish to digitise a record in advance, please select ‘continue’ to order an online copy. We aim to make that copy available within 30 business days of receiving your paid request.
https://www.naa.gov.au/explore-collection/defence-and-war-service-records/army-world-war-ii-1939-45
I have paid for the digitisation of several 2nd AIF files in that series. All are very detailed and I would expect both your Uncles' files will be worthwhile for their family history value, not just for WWII service.
JM
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I agree with JM the information contained in their service files is both detailed and informative. Well worth the cost of having them digitised.
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Re knowing what your Uncles were doing daily/weekly etc
Official War Diaries :
2nd AIF
Unit War Diaries 1939-45. – specifically for 2/12 Batt.
https://www.awm.gov.au/learn/understanding-military-history/unit-diaries then to
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1359733 then to
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1360970 (I chose that option because 2/12 Batt was INFANTRY. Then from there :
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1359938 (Battalions,) scroll down to
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1361028 which is the 2/12 Infantry Batt. Scroll down further as see that basically it is in Chronological order, in sets, sometimes two or three months, sometimes one month at a time. You can download the diaries, or read them online.
So for example here is the live link for 2/12 Batt in December 1943. https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1365050 …. There’s 92 pages just for that live link
Re Mention in Despatches
https://www.awm.gov.au/articles
Many Australian Defence Force personnel were Mentioned in Despatches during the First and Second World Wars. Their names were published in The London Gazette and also the Commonwealth of Australia Gazette.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/
and
https://www.nla.gov.au/blogs/trove/2017/03/02/commonwealth-gazette-1901-to-1957
JM
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Majm,, Thank you for your very helpful posts. The other soldier is actually my father and his details are also not digitised as yet.
The other contact sites are very helpful - a lot to go through but what I have found so far are very interesting. I appreciate your insights into this subject.
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Nanna 52, Thank you for your help. It looks like I may have to pay for the records to be digitised. I appreciate your suggestion.