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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Lisa8thompson on Sunday 09 August 20 09:00 BST (UK)
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I am unable to lactate a death record for my great grandfather
Joseph Thompson
Born: 1876 Gateshead mmn Foster
Mother: Mary Ann Foster 1853-1897
Father: John Thompson 1852-1920
Wife
Mary Ann Cain
Born: 1884 Newcastle mmn Pearson
Death: 1944 North Shields (presumed)
Children
Joseph Thompson 1905-1983
Mary Ann Went nee Thompson 1914-1992
Siblings
Mary Ann Thompson 1873-1965
John Foster Thompson 1874-1938
James Gerald Thompson 1978-1953
William Thompson 1880-1914
Peter Thompson 1889-1957
Edward Thompson 1885-1968
Michael Thompson 1887-
George Thompson 1894-1914
Grandparents
Joseph Thompson 1829-1880
Ann Forbes 1833-1868
Would appreciate and help or leads on locating one please.
Thanks
Lisa
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When do you last have him on census. If 1911, have you found him on the 1939 register if so please give details.
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This probably might not be too much help at the moment but when the local studies reopens (all still up in the air at the moment) I will look for a burial entry for Mary for you. If she died in North Shields she might be in Preston Cemetery. I could check other burial volumes for other places too if necessary. Perhaps Joseph might be buried with Mary. Hopefully, someone might be able to suggest when he may have died. I might be able to find out more myself but it all comes down to the eventual reopening of the local studies.
Also, If I happen to notice any gravestones for them during my forays taking photos for Find A Grave at Preston Cemetery I will take a photo for F.a.G. and let you know and have one too. :)
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The last census record I have for Joseph Thompson was Seghill, Northumberland himself and his son Joseph are boarders at the old Institute.
Ive found Nothing for 1939
I have Mary Ann Thompson nee Cain possible 1911 census in Tynemouth workhouse down as a patient, only thing that is odd on this one is she is down as being single. But under the name Thompson.
I've found nothing for 1939
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Thanks RTL that would be fab.
I was going to try phoning Preston cemetery to see if they have any record of either of them. I just can't find anything for him on searches.
I have a potential death record for Mary Ann.
I will keep this thread up to date if I find anything out.
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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/210859595
Was that you who placed the entry on Find a Grave? If you have information that he was buried there, I am bemused that the information didn't include a date?
Boo
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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/210859595
Was that you who placed the entry on Find a Grave? If you have information that he was buried there, I am bemused that the information didn't include a date?
Boo
I created this in error, I put the wrong info in as it was mean to be the son Joseph Thompson who was cremated at Preston crematorium.
I don't know how to delete the entry.
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[quote author=Lisa8thompson link=topic=835621.msg7007604#msg7007604 date=159696198
I created this in error, I put the wrong info in as it was mean to be the son Joseph Thompson who was cremated at Preston crematorium.
I don't know how to delete the entry.
[/quote]
Find a Grave seem to have community forums https://www.findagraveforums.com
If you register and have a look there may be info about deleting an incorrect entry. If not you could ask how to go about it.
Boo
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Thanks Boo, I will have a look and see if I can get advise on how to delete it.
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You are welcome Lisa I will hopefully be able to assist more once local studies reopens. If you contact the cemetery office they will most likely charge for any help these days. :-\
To remove a memorial I think you just click on 'edit' and then 'delete memorial'.
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Just a thought - I wonder if Joseph might be the one who has death registered Tynemouth March quarter 1910 Tynemouth?
Age of 35 sort of fits. Perhaps wife Mary was widowed by 1911 and when asked if she was married on entering the workhouse hospital she said no and was mistakenly entered as single and not widowed.
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Just a thought - I wonder if Joseph might be the one who has death registered Tynemouth March quarter 1910 Tynemouth?
Age of 35 sort of fits. Perhaps wife Mary was widowed by 1911 and when asked if she was married on entering the workhouse hospital she said no and was mistakenly entered as single and not widowed.
This could be a possibility, but I have a daughter Mary JaneThompson born in 1914? He is also on the 1911 census with his son Joseph in Seghill which states he is married.
Or I have followed the incorrect Joseph?
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You might have followed the right Joseph or perhaps he might be the 1910 one.
Perhaps daughter Mary was Joseph's child or one born to someone else out of wedlock but given Mary's married surname?
Have you ever checked the workhouse admissions and discharges at Tyne and Wear Archives? The admission for Mary is likely to record if she was single/married/widowed and possibly who her next of kin contact was. If anyone helped sign her in their name and address is also likely to be noted. If anyone came to collect Mary when she was discharged they may be noted.
Also did you know that if Mary happened to have died at Preston hospital her cause of death, home address and burial place will be recorded in the Preston Hospital death volumes which go up from 1896 to 1949 at Tyne and Wear Archives?
The TWA is planning to reopen in the Autumn.
I understand patients and inmates were all entered together. My Great Grandfather's sister went in as a patient (after a vicious assault) and is in the admissions/discharges with lots of useful info contained in the records. I would recommend you check these when the archives reopens - there may be some good clues for your Joseph.
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Thanks RTL I will certainly have a look once the Archives are open again. Would that be within North Shields library?
These 2 have been so hard to trace, it's taken years to get this far!
Thank you for the info and advise, it gives me a good idea where I need to look x
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Workhouse records + Preston Hospital death records are at Tyne and Wear Archives in Newcastle. About a 5-10 minute walk from the Central Station. Not far from you as you are in Gateshead, I see.
I am nearer the North Shields local studies which have burial volumes and microfilms so I can search here for you when it reopens. It is easier when the burial volumes are at hand as you can see at a glance if a said person is recorded at a particular cemetery under a particular year. Then the full burial entry can be accessed. TWA have the burials on microfilms but no volumes.
The local studies at North Shields also have index boxes and name folders which may contain more clues. I hope it won't be long before it can reopen safely. ;)
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For admissions/discharges I would suggest you sign this volume out to check for Mary as you know she was there 1911. Reference:
PU.TY/2/1/17
This covers 30 June 1910 - 31 December 1913.
If you think Mary died in 1944 in North Shields you could check these hospital records for Preston:
PU.TY/2/10/10
The above covers deaths from 13 July 1943 - 5 January 1949.
You just fill out a slip and the staff will bring these volumes to your table.
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That's fantastic thank you!
I've just checked where it is, it's only about 20min in the car ;D
Ive made a note of references to take with me thank you
I've only lived here a couple of years so still not really clued up on geographics!
Northumberland I've got no probs with :D I'm a Morpeth Lass!!
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You are welcome. I think you have a good chance of finding your Joseph once things reopen. Hopefully, there will be clues in the these records I have given the references for. The admissions are given on left side of each page and discharges on the right side.
Best Wishes with all this. Do keep us updated if you find him first. :)
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Hi Lisa,
Another bit of advice I would give is to check out the 'Police Identification' file and possibly the album if you find a relevant name at the archives. I would say this to anyone who had ancestors around the North Shields vicinity at that time. The album contains very good quality photos of hundreds of some of the people who were convicted of a range of criminal offences. I have found a very good 1911 photo of my Grandfather's cousin in there and also a one of my Great Grandfather's niece's husband as well as having found photos for other people's ancestors in the past. I know on the one hand we shouldn't hope to find out that our ancestors were criminals but on the positive side if they committed crime in this area a photo of them might exist in the album which is huge and comes in a great big box.
The Police Identification file is usually kept on the shelves immediately behind the lockers and the hat & coat stand. Any problems ask the staff. This contains an index of names. If you see a potential name you can order the album out.
The reference you need to request this fascinating mugshots album out is:
DX1388/1
Under each name is the date of conviction. With the date of conviction it is usually possible to find out more about the offence and person by looking in the Shields Daily News - copies on microfilm at North Shields local studies. They do have hard copies too but understandably generally prefer people to use the microfilms. The newspaper reports are usually good for helping to clarify if the person might really be an ancestor.
You can use a camera to take photos of anything of interest after filling out a form and making payment - I can't remember exactly but I think it might have been around £9 for the day. If you do want to do something like this (such as if you do find a photo of an ancestor and want a copy) it might be worth enquiring about cost before you go. As I remember you can arrange for staff to take a photo from the Police album and email this to you but this costs a bit more. It is also possible to print off records from microfilms very cheaply.
Another thought about possibility of what may have become of Joseph is might he have been killed during the Great War?
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Hi RTL the police criminal files may be of interest, my great Grandfather was apparently the black sheep of the family and was disowned by them, he liked a drink and a fight!
So I have been told! Other than this there very little known by living relatives as no one spent time with them.
Thanks for all your advise x
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Looking at the Shields Daily News I think drinking and brawling seemed to be common pastimes in North Shields back then. ;D I am glad I didn't live back then - I think I would have been scared to venture out the door. ;)
http://www.newmp.org.uk/article.php?categoryid=99&articleid=1627&displayorder=100
Also here is a CWGC link:
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/
If Joseph was killed during the Great War he might be named on a local war memorial. Perhaps check out the 'North East War Memorials Project'. Just quickly I have noticed a J W Thompson on the St Cuthbert RC Church memorial in North Shields. Although this may not be your ancestor.
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On NEWMP there is an East Howdon 'J. Thompson' killed during the Great War on 4 November 1918. No family info so a memoriam search might be the only way to try to find out if he was your ancestor.
Memoriams for this person might have been placed in the Evening Chronicle
- Newcastle City Library or Shields Daily News at North Shields library.
http://www.newmp.org.uk/article.php?categoryid=99&articleid=1691&displayorder=3
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/263194/THOMPSON,%20J/
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A Joseph Thompson (Northumberland Fusiliers) on the Tynemouth Roll of Honour ...
http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=11289
Apparently died from wounds 19 July
1916:
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/67261/JOSEPH%20THOMPSON/
Inscription was 'In Loving Memory Of My Dear Son'
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On NEWMP there is an East Howdon 'J. Thompson' killed during the Great War on 4 November 1918. No family info so a memoriam search might be the only way to try to find out if he was your ancestor.
Memoriams for this person might have been placed in the Evening Chronicle
- Newcastle City Library or Shields Daily News at North Shields library.
http://www.newmp.org.uk/article.php?categoryid=99&articleid=1691&displayorder=3
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/263194/THOMPSON,%20J/
Unfortunately this is a James Thompson. I haven't found a connection to my relatives but I have him in my one name study x
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A Joseph Thompson (Northumberland Fusiliers) on the Tynemouth Roll of Honour ...
http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=11289
Apparently died from wounds 19 July
1916:
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/67261/JOSEPH%20THOMPSON/
Inscription was 'In Loving Memory Of My Dear Son'
I'm going to check this one out, my grandad Joseph Thompson (his son) was sent to Industrial school in 1914 straight for buddle school. I wonder if this is when his dad was in service ::)
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Sometimes children were sent to Industrial schools and other places via the Tynemouth workhouse.
I would recommend checking for a possible comment(s) on son Joseph in the printed Workhouse Minutes volumes which are on a shelf at the North Shields local studies. I could check for you when this reopens if you like. Do you have a specific month date when he went to the industrial school?
Also, if he may have gone briefly into a workhouse children's home before the industrial school he might be in this record at the archives at Newcastle:
Children's Home Admissions & Discharges.
Reference:
PU.TY/2/5
This covers 1 April 1912 - 30 September 1915
Yes, I think it would be a good idea to check out that war record Joseph. If a newspaper notice or memoriam can be found this might reveal if this one may or may not be your ancestor.
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http://northumbriaworldwarone.co.uk/northumbria-ww1-project-database/
Just checked this - I cannot seem to get in the 'view' option for full details but sadly he appears to have only been age 19 so not your Joseph it seems.
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I would recommend checking for a possible comment(s) on son Joseph in the printed Workhouse Minutes volumes which are on a shelf at the North Shields local studies. I could check for you when this reopens if you like. Do you have a specific month date when he went to the industrial school?
If I remember correctly it was Feb/March time in 1914
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I would recommend checking for a possible comment(s) on son Joseph in the printed Workhouse Minutes volumes which are on a shelf at the North Shields local studies. I could check for you when this reopens if you like. Do you have a specific month date when he went to the industrial school?
If I remember correctly it was Feb/March time in 1914
The information was on one of your earlier threads on this family :)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=822914.msg6859456#msg6859456
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Thanks Jen for finding this earlier post. A specific date will make it easier to find him in the Minutes volumes on the off chance there may be any reference to him in these.
I wonder if he might have gone on to the Axwell Park school? If so you will be able to find this school's records at the archives when you go Lisa. It is under Newcastle schools.
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Wife
Mary Ann Cain
Born: 1884 Newcastle mmn Pearson
Death: 1944 North Shields (presumed)
As you have this death in 1944, I assume you've found her on the 1939 register?
I see you also have her as being buried at Preston Cem :-\
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Wife
Mary Ann Cain
Born: 1884 Newcastle mmn Pearson
Death: 1944 North Shields (presumed)
Is the death you have for Mary Ann 4th q 1944, Tynemouth, aged 61?
If so, her death is in the Newcastle Journal, 24th November 1944 : 22nd November aged 61, Mary (late Shiremoor) daughter of the late Robert and Ann. Interment Preston, North Shields.
If this was 'your' Mary you'd maybe expect mention of her children? But presumably you know her parents names, so this should help you decide if its the right person or not.
(Apologies for going off your main topic of Joseph's death).
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Hi JenB
Thank you for the info this confirms that the death date is not for my Mary Ann as her parents are William Cain and Mary Ann Pearson :-\
Something I will certainly re look at thank you x
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I am still worrying away at this intermittently.
Can you clarify something please
Wife
Mary Ann Cain
Born: 1884 Newcastle mmn Pearson
Death: 1944 North Shields (presumed)
I cannot find the birth you mention. Can you satisfy my curiosity and give the full reference please? I don't like to be beaten, but I am on this!
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I don't like to be beaten, but I am on this!
I was beaten far too easily :-[ Is she registered as Mary Ann Kane?
I blame the heat.
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Sorry just checked it is registered as Kane not Cain
1884
Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Newcastle upon Tyne Northumberland
Volume 10B
Page 91
Line 288
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So....William and Mary had Mary Ann in 1884, and registered her under William's surname, but didn't actually get married until 1886?
A tangled web. I'm interested to know what Mary Ann's 1884 birth certificate says?
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So....William and Mary had Mary Ann in 1884, and registered her under William's surname, but didn't actually get married until 1886?
A tangled web. I'm interested to know what Mary Ann's 1884 birth certificate says?
As soon as I have it I will let you know.
GRO states 19th August for dispatch x
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http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1886&qtr=2&vol=10b&page=36&search=search
The marriage of William Cain and Mary Ann Pearson was at St Philip, Elswick, Newcastle upon Tyne - according to marriage locator.
I have added this as a postem on Freebmd but it will take up to 24 hours to appear.
This record will be at the archives. If you haven't already got this you will be able to check this too for full details when the archives reopens and you go for the workhouse record. :)
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So....William and Mary had Mary Ann in 1884, and registered her under William's surname, but didn't actually get married until 1886?
A tangled web. I'm interested to know what Mary Ann's 1884 birth certificate says?
Mary Ann Kane (Cain) birth cert.
Am I ok attaching this?
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Am I ok attaching this?
Not really :)
Best to transcribe the details.
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To confuse matters both mother and daughter are entered on the 1891 census as Ann (presumably you knew this?)
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Hi JenB, I have not found them on the 1891 census, this could be the reason why! Thanks I will have a look now.
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Look for William Cane aged 28.
Edit: on your family tree on Ancestry you've got Mary Cain in 1891 as a single servant named Mary J
Pearson :-\
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Look for William Cane aged 28.
Edit: on your family tree on Ancestry you've got Mary Cain in 1891 as a single servant named Mary J
Pearson :-\
Yeah my tree needs a good tidy up, it has things from merging people. I do try correcting things as I find them.
My hard copy is most accurate!
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Look for William Cane aged 28.
Edit: on your family tree on Ancestry you've got Mary Cain in 1891 as a single servant named Mary J
Pearson :-\
I have found this record but it now makes me question the children of Mary Ann Pearson and William Cane/Cain/Kane as it does not have the other children born prior to 1891..
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Sorry ignore last one, Charlotte Cain born 1887 but died 1888
Elizabeth Cain not born u til 1892.
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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/28592681/william-martin
Hi Lisa,
The North Shields local studies has reopened for brief slots. I haven't been able to look up the Thompsons as we have not ascertained yet which are the correct ones. However, I have been able to find the entry showing plot and section for William Martin who you are requesting a look up for on Find A Grave.
He is in section E Grave Number 446 General. You might want to add this to make this easier for you or someone else to do the look up.
He was a coaltrimmer who died at 66 High Row, Percy Main.
I hope this is of help.
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Thanks RTL
Unfortunately This is not my own memorial, looking at the creator I can't see she has done anything since about 2008.
There is already an edit submitted, I'm guessing that would be yourself.
Hopefully it will be accepted :)
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Yes, it was me who sent the edit. Hopefully, the person I sent the edit to is still with us and will amend the details to show the exact place of burial now.
Although that cemetery is not as huge as Preston in North Shields it is still big and it would be hard for anyone to find William's grave without knowing the location. Is he an ancestor or a twiglet of yours?
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Although that cemetery is not as huge as Preston in North Shields it is still big and it would be hard for anyone to find William's grave without knowing the location. Is he an ancestor or a twiglet of yours?
Twiglet :D love it!!
I have 13 William Martin Ancestors
Decending from Ireland to Wallsend and North Shields area. Process of ilminatation if he's related!
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Yes, I love the 'twiglet' too. I have pinched this from Tickettyboo who uses this word. Ssh! she might not know that I am plagiarising her phrase. ;) ;D 8)
Seriously, I don't think she would mind, though. It does categorise the serious ancestors from those on the periphery so well. :)
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Could his death be
Joseph Thompson aged 57 late 1933 in Tynemouth
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Could his death be
Joseph Thompson aged 57 late 1933 in Tynemouth
I will have to order the death cert for this one to check.
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North Shields local studies is now open Lisa. You would be able to check out various deaths with this name if you went here. If you decide to go this route check with them first regarding what is available as if anything is used it goes into 72 hour quarantine.
I had a quick look for him in the Preston burial register last time I went but I could not see him there under this year. Perhaps this one might be at Church Bank or elsewhere.
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Thanks RTL. I will certainly arrange a visit, I will have to fit a time in around work.
I have received a death cert for what I though I had ordered for 1944 but it states 1946
Joseph Thompson
Death 11th May 1946 aged 69 years
4 Lambs Terrace, West allotment.
Stoneman in coal mine.
I can't read cause something to do with bladder.
In the presence of R Thompson his son.
I don't think this is the correct one as I can only find 2 children for him, Joseph 1905 and Mary Jane 1914.
Unless I've missed one.
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Thanks RTL. I will certainly arrange a visit, I will have to fit a time in around work.
I have received a death cert for what I though I had ordered for 1944 but it states 1946
Joseph Thompson
Death 11th May 1946 aged 69 years
4 Lambs Terrace, West allotment.
Stoneman in coal mine.
I can't read cause something to do with bladder.
In the presence of R Thompson his son.
I don't think this is the correct one as I can only find 2 children for him, Joseph 1905 and Mary Jane 1914.
Unless I've missed one.
Where is he in 1939? If you check that it should help with possibly eliminating him.
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I think I have a 2nd wife for Joseph Thompson
In 1933 to a Lillian Kennedy at St Joseph's Gateshead.
I will See if I can find the record ref and order the certificate.
It's states both Josephs parents.
There is also a marriage for a Joseph Thompson and Lillian Kennedy in 1923 in Tynemouth.. Not sure if it's coincidence. No parents showing.
I still haven't found death records for them.
There is a possible 1914 death record for Mary Ann Thompson his 1st wife.
Could she have died in child birth with her daughter?
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It is more than likely that what has been indexed on Family Search as a marriage in Gateshead is in fact simply a note about the marriage added to the baptism entry at St Joseph’s Gateshead. This was quite frequently done.
The marriage took place in Tynemouth.
As jonw65 pointed out here, when he drew your attention to the marriage back in March, 1933 is probably an error, it was in 1923
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=827845.msg6918943#msg6918943
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Here’s the marriage on FS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNBR-KVP
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Thanks. I have the marriage certificate now.
Joseph and Lillian look to have had 2 children.
Peter Thompson born 1928 Tynemouth
Ann L Thompson born 1926 Tynemouth
I can't find any of them in a 1939 census, nor can I find Lillians parents.
Going off the marriage certificate Lillian was 27 so born approx 1896
Living at 37 Dockwray Square, North Shields.
Father John Kennedy, deceased, Coachman.
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can't find any of them in a 1939 census, nor can I find Lillians parents.
Going off the marriage certificate Lillian was 27 so born approx 1896
Living at 37 Dockwray Square, North Shields.
Father John Kennedy, deceased, Coachman.
This looks like Lilian (Lily) at 37 Dockwray Square in 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWMF-2CN?f.collectionId=1921547&q.anyPlace=northumberland&q.givenName=lily&q.surname=kennedy
Here's the same family with father John in 1901 (Lily's birth wrongly transcribed as Tredlington)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSCZ-BF9
Edit I see you already have the 1911 entry on your tree :-\
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nor can I find Lillians parents.
You can see from the censuses that 'Lilian' was named Lily in both 1901 and 1911.
So search for the birth of a Lily Kennedy and you will find it in Morpeth RD (which includes Bedlington as given on both censuses) in 1895.
The entry gives you her mother's maiden surname which will enable you to find their marriage ;)
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Thank you for the pointers they have helped greatly! That's why I love this platform.
I've now found Joseph wife lily and 2 children in the 1939 census in Penge Kent!, Lily is down as a widower so it narrows the dates of Joseph death between 1923 and 1939.
Good chance I've been searching the wrong area for his death all this time!
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I had a quick look for him in the Preston burial register last time I went but I could not see him there under this year. Perhaps this one might be at Church Bank or elsewhere.
Thanks RTL, I now think he may have died in a different location as I've found his wife and children in the 1939 census in Kent! Lily shows as a widower by then.
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.....I now think he may have died in a different location as I've found his wife and children in the 1939 census in Kent! Lily shows as a widower by then.
There wasn't a census in 1939.
Were you looking at the 1939 National Register, by any chance?
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There wasn't a census in 1939.
Were you looking at the 1939 National Register, by any chance?
[/quote]
Yes that is what it will be then.
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Just a slight nudge to the timeframe: Kelly's 1937 Directory of Beckenham & Penge has Mrs Thompson at 6 Maple Rd, as in the 1939 register. For some reason, the house isn't shown in the 1938 or 1939 directories, but she is in the 1939 electoral roll as Lilian Thompson (no Joseph, but other unrelated people, as in the 1939 register). Going backwards, the resident at No 6 is George Shepherdson from 1924 to 1936, and Joshua Bedford in 1923. Because the house was in multiple occupation and directories generally only show one resident, this doesn't prove she wasn't there also. To check further would need earlier ERs, which I don't have, but you could ask Bromley Local Studies (https://www.bromley.gov.uk/forms/form/304/local_studies_and_archives_-_initial_research_service_request) to look for you. Tell them it's in Ward FF, as this long road was split between two. They may not charge for a quick lookup.
Thinking the Thompsons might have moved within the area covered by the directories, I checked on Mrs Thompsons (first names weren't usually given for women) and Joseph Thompsons in a few years before 1937, but eliminated all possibilities (e.g. they were also shown in 1937).
My guess after all that would be that she moved to Penge for some reason shortly after Joseph's death, which could have been around 1936, and this may have been elsewhere. If he did die in Penge, his most likely resting place would be Beckenham Crematorium & Cemetery. No Penge churches have burials.
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Thanks Chris, very interesting info you have supplied, I will contact the local studies you have mentioned and see if they can have a look.