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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: rofe2028 on Monday 10 August 20 07:11 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
Lilly Irene ROFE (b. 14/12/1907, Footscray VIC), eldest child of Albert Frederick ROFE and Sarah James ROFE (nee BRERETON), left home around 1923 after a disagreement with her father. Apart from a sighting at a train station a couple of years later, it appears that her family never saw her again.
In 1939 Lilly (or "Lily", according to the spelling on the marriage certificate) married a Charles EDMUNDS at Gilgandra NSW. Charles was the eldest son of William EDMUNDS and Johanna EDMUNDS (nee RINDFLEISH) of Gulargambone NSW. Anecdotal evidence from a sister-in-law of Lily's in 1996 indicates that Charles and Lily EDMUNDS left the area in 1940. It is at this point that Lily seems to drop off the radar.
Anecdotal evidence from a younger sister (who was born after Lily had left home) has it that her mother told her that Lily had died in Sydney in 1947, but I haven't been able to find any conclusive evidence of this. Charles EDMUNDS died in Sydney in 1968, so it would appear that there was a move to Sydney at some point. However, Charles' death notice refers to him as the husband of "Neta" (whom I have established as Neta Mary ABBOTT, nee NEAVES), and electoral rolls establish Charles and Neta as having lived at the same Sydney address for many years. His death certificate gives his conjugal status as "Never Married", and lists no children. Neta died in Sydney in 1970.
I haven't been able to find any records relating to Lily post-1939. It would appear that Charles and Lily separated at some point, and it may be that Lily changed her name, moved interstate or overseas, or that for some reason her death was unrecorded.
I’d appreciate if any of the sleuths on this site can help solve the mystery of what became of Lily Irene EDMUNDS (nee ROFE), or if anyone with knowledge of the EDMUNDS or ABBOTT families can assist.
Thanks :)
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Hi,
Welcome,
May I please ask some questions, perhaps rhetorical, but hopefully to help your quest.
From the NSW BDM marriage registration record only ... did the bride's info that she provided about her origins match up with your known info? (Her birth place, her age, her occupation, her mum's maiden name, her dad's name and occupation, etc) ... so form a picture of her person ... truthful, .... look at the witnesses ... could any of them have a connection to her earlier life ... and perhaps their living descendants may know more about her life after 1940....
JM
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Hi JM,
Thanks for your reply, very pertinent questions/suggestions.
The age for Lily on her marriage certificate is out by a couple of years, and her name is spelled "Lily" (whereas her birth certificate has it as "Lilly" with the double-L). However, her place of birth and her parents' names and occupations are spot-on, and I have no doubt that it is the same Lily Irene ROFE born to my great-grandparents in 1907.
The witnesses on the marriage certificate were a Stanley EDMUNDS and a T. M. EDMUNDS, younger brother and sister-in-law to the groom, both now deceased. I'm hoping to make contact with living descendants of the EDMUNDS family of Gulargambone NSW who might have more information.
Thanks :)
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Although the details of Charles EDMUND's death certificate state "never married and no issue" this may simply be because the informant did not know of his previous marriage.
Possibly also it was an attempt at concealment of his true marital status.
Clearly Charles was not married to Neta Mary ABBOTT.
Was she the informant on the certificate?
Neta's rift with her husband Arthur Henry ABBOTT, seems to have been between 1958 and 1963 after which time Charles EDMUNDS is with her at 115 Everleigh Street Redfern.
Can you furnish the details of the death certificate please?
Sue
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Thanks Sue,
Interestingly, I have Charles EDMUNDS at the same address as Arthur Henry ABBOTT and Neta Mary ABBOTT (115 Eveleigh Street Redfern) in 1958, courtesy of the 1958 electoral roll for the subdivision of Redfern West. Perhaps he started off with them as a lodger?
According to the death certificate (NSW BDM, Reg. No. 40403/1968), Charles died on 11/10/1968 at the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital in Camperdown. The informant is an L. McIntosh, a clerk of the hospital, so unfortunately that doesn't help.
Charles' surname is spelled "EDMONDS" on the certificate, his birthplace is given as Gulargambone rather than Gulgong, and his mother's maiden name is spelled "Rhineflash" rather than "Rindfleish", but it is clearly the same Charles EDMUNDS who married Lily Irene ROFE in 1939. His usual residence is listed as 115 Eveleigh Street Redfern.
I've attached a copy of his death notice from the SMH on 12/10/1968. The names of his brothers and sisters-in-law as listed in the notice are definitely a match.
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Do you have death certificates for -
Albert Frederick ROFE
Sarah James ROFE (nee BRERETON)
to see how their children are recorded .....maybe as (dec)
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Thanks wivenhoe,
I've already been down that path, and unfortunately the death certificates for Lily's parents don't help much.
On the death certificate for her father (Albert Frederick ROFE, d. 08/11/1947), Lily and two of her younger siblings are listed as deceased, and the deaths of the younger two are verified facts. However, given the falling-out between Lily and her father, and in the absence of any other solid evidence regarding her death, I'm not convinced that her deceased status on her father's death certificate can be taken at face value. It does, however, fit in with the story her mother told another sibling many years later (ie. that Lily had died in Sydney in 1947).
Interestingly, on the death certificate for her mother (Sarah James ROFE nee BRERETON, d. 25/02/1956) Lily is not listed at all. All of the other siblings are listed, including the two other deceased siblings.
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Re Lily's dad's d.c. .... who was the informant .... and in your judgement, how reliable would their knowledge be re if Lily was deceased at that time..... if it is her mum who was informant, I would suggest it may be reliable.
JM
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Thanks JM, good thinking.
Unfortunately, Lily's father was killed at work in a shunting accident at the North Geelong railyards, and the informant listed on the death certificate is the police officer who was deposed at his inquest. I have a copy of the inquest, but it only refers to one child (Gladys Isabel SMITH nee ROFE, a younger sister to Lily), and only because she was the one who attended to identify his body.
Yup, stymied at every turn... you can see why the fate of Lily remains elusive to this day.
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Not 100% this is her and the circumstances are unpleasant, but there was a woman who went by the name of Lillian Irene Edmunds or Edmund-Walls, who was murdered in 1978. Her date of birth, according to the police article offering a reward, was 14 December 1908.
Reward offered:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/219955800?searchTerm=%22Lillian%20Irene%20Edmunds%22
The death is indexed under "Irene Edmund-Walls" (no parental information from the looks of the index).
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Whoa, now that's an interesting find, and I see that NSW BDM have a corresponding death record for an "Irene EDMUND-WALLS".
Thanks jorose, I'll definitely have to look into that.
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WARNING: graphic :'(
The Age March 27, 1978 page 5 https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/123265362/
Woman raped, murdered .... - , SYDNEY. - A 68-year-old woman was raped and bashed to death on a vacant allotment at Alexandria early yesterday. A post mortem examination showed the killer had tried to strangle her before he attacked her with a flat piece of wood or metal.
The victim, Mrs. Irene Edmund-Walls, lived with her husband in Lyne Street, Alexandria. - Detectives were told Mrs. Edmund-Walls, “a regular small punter, had backed the winners of the Donoaster and a couple of other races on Saturday.
Loaf of bread They found no money on the dead woman and think the killer robbed his victim after the attack. Mr. Phillip Edmund-Walls said yesterday his wife had left home to buy a loaf of bread at a nearby shop. "When she did not return I thought she must have run into friends so I went to bed," he said. "Everyone in the street liked her and as far as I know she hadn't an enemy in the world. . '.. "I couldn't believe it when I found out she was dead." A man going to the newsagent found her body at 6.30 a.m. on an overgrown allotment about 100 metres from her home. She was lying in blood-soaked grass a few metres from a well-worn track through the allotment. Police yesterday were trying to trace her movements after she left home. They searched the allotment and surrounding streets but found no trace of the murder weapon.
October 8, 2017 Daily Telegraph (Sydney) Page 34
CLUELESS
Missing evidence cripples cold case murder hunts.
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Irene Edmund-Walls, 1978 Irene Edmund-Walls, 70, was bashed to death with a metal pole or piece of wood in Allen Lane, Alexandria, in March, 1978. Her empty purse was found near her body.
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Thanks cupoflife, I hadn't seen those but I came across an article in the Sydney Morning Herald on the same day as your article from The Age. I also found another gazette entry almost identical to the one identified by jorose, but 13 months later.
I've since found 1977 electoral roll entries for the couple in Sydney: he appears as Phillip Thomas WALLS and she appears as (wait for it)... Lily Irene EDMUND. Soooo close to my great-aunt's married name, and with the day and month of birth the same to boot. And turns out it's within walking distance of where Charles EDMUNDS was living with Mrs Neta ABBOTT in Redfern in 1968 when he died.
I can't say for sure that this is my Lily Irene EDMUNDS (nee ROFE). Part of me hopes that it's not, but I think I'm really gonna have to purchase that death certificate from NSW BDM and see what's what. I note that the parents' names aren't listed on the death register search...
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Can anyone with access to NSW State Library e-resources help me out me with a transcript of the "Clueless" article in the Daily Telegraph (Sydney) on 8 October 2017, page 34?
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Can anyone with access to NSW State Library e-resources help me out me with a transcript of the "Clueless" article in the Daily Telegraph (Sydney) on 8 October 2017, page 34?
Cup of Life has already given you that part of the article that refers to Irene Edmund-Walls.
.....
October 8, 2017 Daily Telegraph (Sydney) Page 34
CLUELESS
Missing evidence cripples cold case murder hunts.
....
Irene Edmund-Walls, 1978 Irene Edmund-Walls, 70, was bashed to death with a metal pole or piece of wood in Allen Lane, Alexandria, in March, 1978. Her empty purse was found near her body.
The article refers to a number of old, outstanding Unsolved Homicides.
'The Sunday Telegraph can reveal nine of those cases - ranging from the rape and murder of a schoolgirl to the botched robbery of a 68 year old - where crucial evidence, which could have been a key piece of the puzzle in solving a crime, has vanished. Poor record keeping, a lack of foresight and various relocations over many decades have all been blamed for today's absence of valuable historical evidence. ...." “We’ve also found that exhibits weren’t returned from trials or inquests, or when sent to other agencies for analysis and examination.” ....
JM notes, many paragraphs later in the article "Now NSW Police has a centralised system for electronically logging exhibits and an archive."
So of the approximately one thousand words, only thirty three words refer to your person of interest.
JM
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deleted, duplicated
sorry
JM
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Thanks JM, much appreciated. I was just looking for some context as to how that fitted into the article as a whole. It's not entirely clear, but the article seems to imply that the purse located next to Mrs Edmund-Walls' body subsequently went missing.
I'll wait and see what the death certificate reveals, although presumably it doesn't contain her parents' details so I'm not sure how helpful it will be. Perhaps there was an inquest? I'll touch base with NSW State Archives to see if they have any further information. Although, if the case is still open, any records are probably still sealed...
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Thanks JM, much appreciated. I was just looking for some context as to how that fitted into the article as a whole. It's not entirely clear, but the article seems to imply that the purse located next to Mrs Edmund-Walls' body subsequently went missing.
I'll wait and see what the death certificate reveals, although presumably it doesn't contain her parents' details so I'm not sure how helpful it will be. Perhaps there was an inquest? I'll touch base with NSW State Archives to see if they have any further information. Although, if the case is still open, any records are probably still sealed...
I would not read that into the article. To me it is indicating that the journalist writing the article in 2017 about the 1978 crime was simply noting that 'her empty purse was found near her body' .... so the journalist was reminding the readers of the likely motive for the crime.
ADD ... you will find the same info on an official transcription of the NSW BDM death cert, same info, not as expensive as a real deal certificate. Likely there will be special offers available during August, as it is family history month...
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
JM
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attaching a pdf I have prepared.
JM