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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: hols92 on Tuesday 11 August 20 22:04 BST (UK)

Title: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: hols92 on Tuesday 11 August 20 22:04 BST (UK)
Hi! I am new to all this but have been trying to discover as much as I can about my family history.
I recently discovered my Grandfather; John O'Donnell born 1902 in Carrick on Suir.
This is what I know so far and would love if anyone could help me any further.
His Father Thomas O'Donnell and Mother Ellen Curran (Maiden Name) were married in Carrick on Suir and had 7 children - Mary, James, Patrick, John (my grandfather), Bridget, William and Ellie.
They lived together at House 3, Red Garden, Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary according to the Ireland Census 1911.
My Grandfather went on to join the Royal Munster Fusiliers 2nd Battalion in 1919 til 1922 in WW1 and served in Egypt during this time.
He somehow ended up in Watford, Hertfordshire, England where he met my Grandmother and my father was then born in 1949 he was around until my father was approx. age 2 and I know nothing of him after that.

I have been told a story by a relative of the Curran/Cunningham/Connelly side of my family that my one of my Grandfathers siblings was shot dead on his door step by the Black and Tan, so very interested in knowing more about that too.
I would so love to know more about my family and particularly my Grandfather. If anyone can help me with this, I would be so grateful!!
I am currently signed up to Ancestry and Find my past but have seemed to have drawn a dead end.
I look forward to contact from anyone with an insight.

Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: gaffy on Thursday 13 August 20 03:03 BST (UK)

... His Father Thomas O'Donnell and Mother Ellen Curran (Maiden Name) were married in Carrick on Suir and had 7 children - Mary, James, Patrick, John (my grandfather), Bridget, William and Ellie.
They lived together at House 3, Red Garden, Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary according to the Ireland Census 1911
...


Hello and welcome.  :)  The 1911 census return (linked below for the convenience of readers) shows an eighth living child Eliza and indicates 9 children born by that point (there was a son Thomas born and died in 1896):
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Carrick_on_Suir__Urban_/Red_Garden/839966/

Again for the convenience of readers, the family in 1901:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Carrick_On_Suir/Grey_Stone_Street/1694205/

But I've hit an issue with birth registrations for the children. Thomas O'Donnell married Ellen Curran in 1891, nothing unexpected there:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1891/10663/5885179.pdf

I can see birth registrations for the older O'Donnell children shown in the 1911 census return, again nothing unexpected there, for example, here is Patrick O'Donnell's birth in 1900:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1900/01982/1763439.pdf
   
But when I search for O'Donnell birth registrations for the younger children shown in that 1911 census return, I can't find them. The only births I can find in the relevant area and time period, with a mother called Ellen Curran, are registered as Byrne, for example:

- Bridget Byrne b. 1904:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1904/01803/1706639.pdf
- William Byrne b. 1906:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1907/01706/1676273.pdf
- Ellen Byrne b. 1909:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1909/01610/1645954.pdf

A couple with the same names (Thomas Byrne and Ellen Curran) also had these two children:

- Johanna b. 1911:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1911/01516/1615685.pdf
- Christina b. 1913:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1913/01428/1586146.pdf

In the above 1913 registration for Christina Byrne, the surname was subsequently corrected in 1941 to O'Donnell by statutory declaration by Bridget ? and Eileen Haywood 'two credible persons having knowledge of the fact of the case'.

Have I got the wrong folk? Or was Thomas O'Donnell a.k.a. Thomas Byrne? I also wondered if the Byrne witnesses to the 1891 marriage were significant?   


... I recently discovered my Grandfather; John O'Donnell born 1902 in Carrick on Suir ...


Funnily enough, that is the one birth registration that I haven't yet found in Carrick on Suir.

Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: Girl Guide on Thursday 13 August 20 08:18 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat Hols  :D

Do you know the maiden surname of your grandmother?  I can see only one male birth in 1949 in Hertfordshire and the registration district is St. Albans.

Was your father definitely born in Hertfordshire or could he have been born elsewhere?  Do I assume that your father is still alive?

Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: Girl Guide on Thursday 13 August 20 08:28 BST (UK)
I did find a transcription of when John enlisted but there was no image to see.

First name(s)   John
Last name   O'Donnell
Birth year   1902
Birth place   Carrick-On-Suir, Tipperary
Birth county   Tipperary
Occupation on enlistment   Farm Labourer
Regiment   Royal Munster Fusiliers
Service number   7211746
Attestation date   28 Jun 1919
Age on attestation   17 29/
Attestation place   Cork
Address of next of kin   Long Lane, Carrick-on-Suir, Tipperary

From British Army, Irish Regimental Enlistment Registers 1877-1924
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: gaffy on Thursday 13 August 20 09:08 BST (UK)


... I recently discovered my Grandfather; John O'Donnell born 1902 in Carrick on Suir ...


Funnily enough, that is the one birth registration that I haven't yet found in Carrick on Suir.


I've found a transcript of what I suspect is a baptism for John, he was baptised in the RC parish of Trinity Without (15 miles SE of Carrick on Suir in Waterford City) on 8 June 1902, parents listed as Thomas O'Donnell and Ellen Curran of Philip Street, the sponsors were John Forristal and Margaret Kerins.  I still can't see a civil birth registration, so I'm wondering if Thomas and Ellen were just visiting someone in the city or otherwise there temporarily and the civil birth registration for John got forgotten about in returning home to Carrick on Suir?

I can also see transcripts of baptisms for Patrick (1900) and Bridget (1904), the one for Bridget is important, for it sits well with the civil birth registration for Bridget Byrne (that I posted above at Reply #1) in all but surname.  In the transcript, she was recorded as Brigid O'Donnell, baptised in Carrick on Suir RC parish on 18 September 1904, the address given as Town Wall, parents Thomas O'Donnell and Ellen Curran, sponsors James and Eliza Cunningham.

So baptised O'Donnell and registered as Byrne.  Hmmm...

Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 13 August 20 10:20 BST (UK)
1924 Munster Express, Mr Quirke sought to get possession of the house occupied by Thomas O'Donnell Long Land, case dismissed due to incorrect serving of notice to quit.

Thomas O'Donnell and neighbour John Donovan clearly don't get on, they appear in court more that once for fairly petty issues, abusive language and such, a daughter Josephine O'Donnell gets a mention.
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: hols92 on Thursday 13 August 20 12:33 BST (UK)
Thank you so much everyone!
This is so amazing and super insightful..
So my Grandmothers maiden name was Amelia Louise Masters.

I am so intrigued about this 'Byrne' business but it answers a few questions too. There is a Christine Elizabeth O'Donnell (now Beckingham) who was a daughter of Thomas O'Donnell and Ellen Curran and I wondered if she was perhaps the "Eliza" on the 1911 Census?
Where did you see the change in name from Byrne to O'Donnell as I wonder if the Eileen that changed it is in fact Christines daughter, Eileen C Beckingham? And Bridget, the Bridget O'Donnell we see in the 1911 census?

Do we think that the Josephine O'Donnell mentioned in the petty affairs with John Donavan is the Johanna Byrne that has been discovered?

Any future help would be so great!!
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: hols92 on Thursday 13 August 20 13:57 BST (UK)
I have found evidence that there was Christina O'Donnell but she can't have been born in 1912/13 as she was married in 1919 to Ernest L Beckingham. She died Jan 1985 in Exmouth and this death record has her birth date as 19 September 1899 making her a sure shoe in for the Eliza O'Donnell in the 1911 Census?

Could she perhaps have not been registered until 1913?
Could anyone shed any light on this?
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: hols92 on Thursday 13 August 20 14:14 BST (UK)
Also the James and Eliza Cunningham who witnessed Bridgets Baptism are Brother in law and sister of Ellen Curran  :)
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: hols92 on Thursday 13 August 20 18:53 BST (UK)
Also I wonder if anyone could help with Thomas O'Donnell the Father - married to Ellen Curran 1891
he suffered a shot to the head which ended with a metal plate placed in his head. He moved to London to live with daughter Bridget when his wife died but suffered mental health problems and was committed to Digby hospital in Exeter when he then died later.
Thus far, I have thought he was the Thomas O'Donnell born 1974 in Cahir, Tipperary, son of Patrick O'Donnell and Mary Carroll, although now I am unsure as realising in the 1911 census for the O'Donnell Family at Red Garden in Carrick on Suir , Thomas is listed as 37 years old, two years older than Ellen Curran born on 24th April 1974?

In the Marriage Certificate of Thomas and Ellen it says that she was 19 and he was 18 and that his father is in fact a Thomas O'Donnell also? But I have struggled to find a Thomas O'Donnell with this name for his Father born circa 1973?

Sorry for all the questions but I really want to get it right and I'm such a rookie!
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: Girl Guide on Thursday 13 August 20 19:12 BST (UK)
Do you know when and where John O'Donnell married Amelia? 

I can't seem to find any marriage for John to Amelia Masters.
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 13 August 20 20:03 BST (UK)
Also I wonder if anyone could help with Thomas O'Donnell the Father - married to Ellen Curran 1891
he suffered a shot to the head which ended with a metal plate placed in his head. He moved to London to live with daughter Bridget when his wife died but suffered mental health problems and was committed to Digby hospital in Exeter when he then died later.

This fits with what I was reading in the newspaper re him not getting on with his neighbour John Donovan and his landlord trying to get him out of the house, he was described as a nuisance to his neighbours.
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: hols92 on Thursday 13 August 20 22:40 BST (UK)
John O'Donnell and Amelia Masters never married; as my Grandmother had 5 other children from a previous marriage, John was not in a position to support this size of family, so after initially bring money and items from the black market to help with the maintenance of his child, he left.
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 13 August 20 23:28 BST (UK)

Where did you see the change in name from Byrne to O'Donnell as I wonder if the Eileen that changed it is in fact Christines daughter, Eileen C Beckingham? And Bridget, the Bridget O'Donnell we see in the 1911 census?

It's written on the right of Christina's birth cert.
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: gaffy on Friday 14 August 20 10:45 BST (UK)
As an aside, I've been trying to decipher / reconcile a place name in Carrick on Suir that crops up in several of the O'Donnell / Byrne records that I've posted. For example, 'Garryrue' appears as the residence recorded for Ellen Curran in the registration of her marriage to Thomas O'Donnell in 1891. And 'Garry Rue Lane' appears as the address of Thomas Byrne and Ellen Curran at the time of the birth of their daughter Johanna on 1 June 1911.  This latter example was nagging me slightly, for the birth occurred only two months after the 1911 census, which showed Thomas and Ellen O'Donnell and family living in a place called 'Red Garden' in Carrick on Suir .

However, it would appear that there is no inconsistency, according to this item from 'The School's Collection' of folklore and local tradition compiled by pupils in Irish schools between 1937 and 1939:

Garry Ruadh:-
This part of Carrick is situated to the north of Town Wall. It is a large uncultivated patch of earth. When the Summertime comes the place is filled up with wild red poppies. Hence the name Red Garden or Garry Ruadh.


https://www.duchas.ie/en/cbes/4922249/4864102

(I'm wondering... maybe derived from garraí = garden/field, ruadh = red?)

Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: Sinann on Friday 14 August 20 11:42 BST (UK)
I'm following you around gaffy ;D
Red Garden on map (Orange coloured bit)
https://bit.ly/2FhRBWY
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: hols92 on Friday 14 August 20 14:07 BST (UK)
So I have discovered that Garryrue was a local name in the town of Carrick on Suir at the turn of the 19th-20th Century. Its Gaelic name was Garrai Rua (Red Gardens) anglicised to Garryrue and its English translation is Red Garden Lane. Evidently, it means the Red Garden, where there was blood shed in a battle. The Garryrue extended from the rear of Lough St to the rear of New St, Carrick in an area now known in the present Pierce/Pearce Square, it extends from what was Town Wall down to 'The Green'. Garraí Rua was an area in the town, opposite the green, it was a laneway near the centre of the town Carrick on Suir.
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: gaffy on Friday 14 August 20 17:20 BST (UK)

I'm following you around gaffy ;D
Red Garden on map (Orange coloured bit)
https://bit.ly/2FhRBWY


No worries, great minds think alike, glad to see where garry rue / red garden was.  :) 
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: hols92 on Friday 14 August 20 17:29 BST (UK)
Gaffy..
Do you have any ideas about Thomas O'Donnell and his parents etc?
I have since researched Bridget Hemmi (one of the ladies who was a credible source for the change of name for Christina O'Donnell) she was in fact born O'Donnell herself by Thomas O'Donnell and Nellie O'Donnell (born Burns) I wonder if this in fact "Byrnes" and thus why she was credible for the name change as perhaps she is a relative of Christinas or one of Michael Byrne and Elizabeth Byrne the witness to Thomas and Ellens Marriage?
Would love your thoughts?
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: Kiltaglassan on Friday 14 August 20 18:05 BST (UK)

Is this the marriage you are referring to?

From https://www.freebmd.org.uk/

Marriage Jul-Sep 1923
Bridget O'Donnell to Henry C Hemmi
Hendon    3a  950

KG


Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: hols92 on Friday 14 August 20 21:54 BST (UK)
Yes this is Bridget Hemmi! Thank you!
 I just wondered if her mother; the Nellie O'Donnell born Byrnes was a connection to the Michael and Elizabeth Byrnes filed as witnesses to Thomas O'Donnell and Ellen Currans marriage in 1891..?
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: gaffy on Friday 14 August 20 23:12 BST (UK)

... I have since researched Bridget Hemmi (one of the ladies who was a credible source for the change of name for Christina O'Donnell) she was in fact born O'Donnell herself by Thomas O'Donnell and Nellie O'Donnell (born Burns) I wonder if this in fact "Byrnes" and thus why she was credible for the name change as perhaps she is a relative of Christinas or one of Michael Byrne and Elizabeth Byrne the witness to Thomas and Ellens Marriage? ...


The 1939 England & Wales Register shows a date of birth of 15 September 1904 for Bridget Hemmi, just one day out from the date of 14 September 1904 that Bridget Byrne was registered as born to Thomas Byrne and Ellen Curran and whom I believe was the same child baptised as Brigid O'Donnell on 18 September 1904  for parents Thomas O'Donnell and Ellen Curran. That date of birth is quite some coincidence if it isn't her.

Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: hols92 on Saturday 15 August 20 17:54 BST (UK)
I think you may have cracked the Bridget Hemmi question Gaffy! It has to be her!
Can you please link


... I recently discovered my Grandfather; John O'Donnell born 1902 in Carrick on Suir ...


Funnily enough, that is the one birth registration that I haven't yet found in Carrick on Suir.


I've found a transcript of what I suspect is a baptism for John, he was baptised in the RC parish of Trinity Without (15 miles SE of Carrick on Suir in Waterford City) on 8 June 1902, parents listed as Thomas O'Donnell and Ellen Curran of Philip Street, the sponsors were John Forristal and Margaret Kerins.  I still can't see a civil birth registration, so I'm wondering if Thomas and Ellen were just visiting someone in the city or otherwise there temporarily and the civil birth registration for John got forgotten about in returning home to Carrick on Suir?

I can also see transcripts of baptisms for Patrick (1900) and Bridget (1904), the one for Bridget is important, for it sits well with the civil birth registration for Bridget Byrne (that I posted above at Reply #1) in all but surname.  In the transcript, she was recorded as Brigid O'Donnell, baptised in Carrick on Suir RC parish on 18 September 1904, the address given as Town Wall, parents Thomas O'Donnell and Ellen Curran, sponsors James and Eliza Cunningham.

So baptised O'Donnell and registered as Byrne.  Hmmm...



Can you please put the link for Johns Baptism because I can't seem to find it anywhere and the same for Bridget and Patrick that you found please??
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: gaffy on Sunday 16 August 20 16:29 BST (UK)
To view the transcripts of these baptisms, you need to subscribe to the 'RootsIreland' website (unfortunately, the free to view NLI RC parish registers website doesn't cover the records I've mentioned).

I am still none the wiser as to why Thomas O'Donnell was called Thomas Byrne, when his wife Ellen was registering the later childrens' births.  And I haven't yet found a civil death record for Carrick on Suir Registration District in the period 1920-1922 to corroborate one of their children having been shot dead by the Black and Tans.   

Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: hols92 on Sunday 16 August 20 17:32 BST (UK)
Well if it helps the date of death, I have found out is Aug 13th 1922?
I am also searching for the death certificate or something for my Grandfather (John O'Donnell) I have been told now that he died/buried on September 3rd 1975 in Carrick on Suir...
Reckon we could find something on this?
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 16 August 20 19:43 BST (UK)
Munster Express Sept 12 1975
Late Mr John O'Donnell-
The death took place last week at St Bridget's Hospital Carrick on Suir of Mr John O'Donnell shopkeeper Old Bridge Carrick on Suir. Deceased who was a former employee of Mrssrs Michael Power Ltd. Carrick on Suir also operated the local Sub Postoffice for Carrick Beg. Funeral report will appear in next weeks issue.

I can't find a funeral report in the next weeks issue.
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: hols92 on Monday 17 August 20 13:52 BST (UK)
Thank you so much!
This is such a fantastic insight! I have tried to find this excerpt myself but have struggled, can you please send me a link?

Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: Sinann on Monday 17 August 20 14:31 BST (UK)
It's from IrishNewsArchives you need a subscription so sorry no link.
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: hols92 on Monday 17 August 20 14:32 BST (UK)
Ah ok, thanks so much anyway!
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: hols92 on Tuesday 18 August 20 16:05 BST (UK)
Turns out this John O'Donnell is not the right one!
Can't be his death date after all. So this takes me back to tracking him after his time in Egypt in 1922?!
Help  ??? ???
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: Kimmytantonmohan on Friday 28 August 20 18:38 BST (UK)
Hiya, sorry to hijack your thread but it is highly unlikely that the Eileen Haddon (?) that, with Bridget Hemmi, re-registered Christina Byrne to O'Donnell is the daughter of my nan Christina Beckingham as Eileen's married name was Moran.
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: hols92 on Tuesday 01 September 20 02:02 BST (UK)
Hi everybody!
Quick update on some more info!
I have just found my Grandfathers (John O'Donnell) Death index for 1980 in Luton, Bedfordshire.
I have also meanwhile found that he was discharged to Warwickshire in July 1922 at the demise of the Royal Munster Fusiliers and next found that he spent a day in Camden St Pancras Workhouse, in on 1st Jan 1923 before being discharged to St Pancras Hospital. On this record it is written that sister Eliza (Beckingham) was his closest next of kin in address.

I have tried to access the St Pancras Hospital admissions detail through London Metropolitan Archives but you have to have a 'History Card' and although free you must collect in person and due to Covid 19 they are currently closed and not answering the phones either to give me the application number to access these records, which I imagine would help a lot in painting the picture of my Grandfathers life.
Is it at all possible that anyone would be able to help find some of these missing puzzle pieces and/or perhaps shed further light on where he went from London to Watford for the birth of my father and finally to his death in Luton?

Also, on a rather large side note, I found that there was another sibling of the O'Donnell children born by Thomas O'Donnell and Ellen Curran named Michael. I am yet to find any birth or baptismal records for him under O'Donnell or Byrne but I stumbled across him when discovering that Father; Thomas and Sister; Johanna, spent time at the same workhouse as my Grandfather but 3 years later in 1926. Thomas claims he has 2 children alongside himself; Johanna and a Michael O'Donnell born 25th Jan 1916. 
This record states his Wife is dead (which we know of course from the shooting in 1922) and claims all three have next of kin by address, as like John, Eliza (Beckingham) Kentish Town Road and Bridget (who we can now also officially confirm was married as 'Hemmi' according to this record too) on Regents Park Road at the time.

According to the records, Johanna after many admissions and discharges later, she was finally discharged to Shaftesbury Home, Shaftesbury Avenue on 18th feb 1927.
Father, Thomas was discharged finally on 26th Feb 1927 to somewhere I cannot transcribe but Michael's last discharge on the record is claimed as 29th Dec 1926 but says continued after P.A next to it so I am unsure if this was his final discharge and I have looked for further admission records but haven't found this continuation.

We know that Thomas followed Eliza and daughters to Exeter where they were evacuated in WW2 where he was later admitted to Digby Hospital Asylum and died.

So I ask again, if anyone can help at all to fill in some of the gaps here too it might help also tell the story of my ancestors, moreover my Grandfather :)
Title: Re: O'Donnell Family Carrick on Suir, co Tipperary Ireland 19th/20th Century
Post by: Kimmytantonmohan on Tuesday 01 September 20 10:16 BST (UK)
Hi, I have emailed Devon Archives to ask if they could help with the admission of Thomas to Exeter Asylum and am awaiting a response. There was a cemetery specifically used for deaths of inmates but it is now defunct. When I have a reply I will let you know if there is any news. The info you have accrued is amazing.