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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Buffnut453 on Thursday 13 August 20 21:17 BST (UK)
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One of my Great-Great Grandmothers was Elizabeth Hayes born around 1833 in Belfast. Her father's name was Samuel Hayes who was a wire drawer (according to her marriage record to my Great-Great Grandfather, George Pickavance). Unfortunately, I have no other clues about her family: no mother's name, siblings, nor even an actual birth/Christening date.
Elizabeth's birth year is derived from UK Census records. She appears in the 1861, 1871, 1881 and 1891 Censuses living in St.Helens, Lancashire, England. Each of the records gives her birth year as 1833. Her burial record from August 1901 lists her birth year as 1832.
My Great-Great Grandfather was Elizabeth's third husband. Her first husband had a surname Ashton but I have no record of that marriage. She then married William Abbott on 8 Nov 1860 at St.Paul's Church, Warrington, Lancashire, England. She married George Pickavance at St.Mary's Church, Prescot, on 31 Nov 1870.
The precise spelling of her surname is unclear. It could be Hayes or Heyes. Her name on the birth certificate of my Great-Grandmother, Eliza Pickavance, is either Case or Ease (the latter is more likely as a mis-spelling of Hayes).
Can anyone out there in the wonderful world of Rootschat help me find Elizabeth's birth date and her other family members?
Many thanks,
Mark
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William Abbott didn't waste much time. His wife Ellen died Sept qtr 1860 and he remarried Dec qtr 1860
So looking at the 1861 entry Elizabeth does not appear to have had any children by Ashton which could have given us a clue to husbands name
Is she shown as a widow on the 1860 marriage cert as there is an 1851 entry for an Elizabeth Ashton b 1832 Ireland but living in Liverpool - single
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Could this be the family in Warrington in 1851?
Piece 2203 folio 482 page 20
On findmypast/familysearch Samuel is Heyer, the rest have no surname
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGYK-B77
Samuel Hayes(?) Head 50 Pensioner born Portsmouth
Jane Wife 40(?) Belfast
Elizabeth 18 Fustian Cutter
Samuel 13 Scholar
Henry 14
Ellen 9
Mary 3
John 10 months
Looks like it says the children all born Warrington
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Baptism at St Paul Warrington, 14 July 1850
John
Son of Samuel and Jane Hayes
abode Towns End
father a Wire drawer
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Possible birth reg?
HAYES, JOHN
Mother's Maiden Surname: SEARLE
GRO Reference: 1850 J Quarter in WARRINGTON Volume 20 Page 1075
Before him Mary
HAYES, MARY
Mother's Maiden Surname: SEARLE
GRO Reference: 1847 D Quarter in WARRINGTON Volume 20 Page 892
Baptism 12 Dec 1847 Warrington
Mary
parents Samuel + Eliza Jane Heys
father Wire drawer
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Possible marriage at Portsea, 8 May 1831
Samuel Hayes
+
Eliza Jane Searle
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q571-2FXZ
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In 1841 they may be in Warrington
Samuel Hayes 45 a Labourer
Eliza Hayes 25
Elizabeth Hayes 5 born Ireland
Samuel Hayes 3
Henry Hayes 1
All bar Elizabeth born Lancashire. Also a Female Servant
Piece 521 book 12 folio 21 page 34
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQLQ-CWX
Birth of the youngest
HAYES, HENRY SEARLE
Mother's Maiden Surname: SEARLE
GRO Reference: 1840 J Quarter in WARRINGTON Volume 20 Page 843
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Could this be the family in Warrington in 1851?
Henry 14
Henry will be 11. Probably my mistake.
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Reply removed - 1841 details already given above
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A baptism of Elizabeth at Warrington.
2 Feb 1833
Elizabeth
Daughter of Samuel + Jane Hayes
abode Town's End
father a Labourer
From the BT, but the parish register is on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9GF-598Z-R?i=222
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William Abbott didn't waste much time. His wife Ellen died Sept qtr 1860 and he remarried Dec qtr 1860
So looking at the 1861 entry Elizabeth does not appear to have had any children by Ashton which could have given us a clue to husbands name
Is she shown as a widow on the 1860 marriage cert as there is an 1851 entry for an Elizabeth Ashton b 1832 Ireland but living in Liverpool - single
Hi CaroleW,
Indeed, William Abbott didnt hang about after his wife's death.
The marriage record on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks shows William Abbott marrying Elizabeth Ashton, a widow. The bride's father is Samuel Hayes, a wire drawer.
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A baptism of Elizabeth at Warrington.
2 Feb 1833
Elizabeth
Daughter of Samuel + Jane Hayes
abode Town's End
father a Labourer
From the BT, but the parish register is on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9GF-598Z-R?i=222
Jon,
Sorry for not responding sooner to you splendid series of posts. I think you may have broken the code on this part of my family tree. I've been searching and searching for years trying to solve this one...and you managed to crack it in a few hours. You're a genealogy God!!!!
I'll follow up on your findings and probably order birth certificates, where available, to confirm details. Given the Christening date in Warrington in 1833, it is possible that Elizabeth was born in Ireland. Perhaps Jane went home for some reason while heavily pregnant. However, that would be unusual for the time.
Of course, I now need to track down Jane in Ireland...so I may be back in a while with a new thread on her line (I truly have had zero joy with any of my Irish ancestors).
Once again, many, MANY thanks for all your help. This really is wonderful research.
Kind regards,
Mark
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Reply removed - 1841 details already given above
Hi Carole,
No worries. I do appreciate your inputs. Between you and jonw65 I've gone from a dead-end to having enough data to really piece this family together. I appreciate your efforts on my behalf.
Kind regards,
Mark
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Possible marriage at Portsea, 8 May 1831
Samuel Hayes
+
Eliza Jane Searle
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q571-2FXZ
Hi Jon,
Not so sure about that one. There's a Christening record from 1833 that appears to be related to this family:
Name: Elizabeth Jane Ann Hayes
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 31 Jul 1833
Baptism Place: Saint Thomas,Portsmouth,Hampshire,England
Father: Samuel Hayes
Mother: Eliza Jane
FHL Film Number: 919727, 919728
Given that we have a Christening record for an Elizabeth Hayes in Warrington in Feb 1833, I'd be surprised if this was the same family.
Cheers,
Mark
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Having previously posted my doubts about the marriage of Samuel Hayes to Eliza Jane Searle in Portsea, I'm now inclined to think that may be the same family. A search of Christenings in Warrington during the period 1830-1850 throws up the following, several of which list "Eliza Jane" or "Eliza" as the mother's name, and which tally with the names and dates in the 1851 Census:
Baptism: 3 Feb 1833 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Hayes - Daur of Samuel Hayes & Jane
Abode: Townsend
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: T V Bayne
Register: Baptisms 1831 - 1835, Page 110, Entry 880
Source: LDS Film 1562962
Baptism: 1 Feb 1835 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Henry Serle Heyes - Son of Samuel Heyes & Eliza
Abode: Haydock Street
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: T V Bayne
Register: Baptisms 1831 - 1835, Page 257, Entry 2050
Source: LDS Film 1562962
Baptism: 29 Oct 1837 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Samuel Hayes - Son of Samuel Hayes & Eliza Jane
Abode: Haydock Street
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: T V Bayne
Register: Baptisms 1835 - 1838, Page 159, Entry 1267
Source: LDS Film 1532962
Baptism: 16 Aug 1840 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Henry Searle Hayes - [Child] of Samuel Hayes & Eliza
Abode: Winwick Street
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: Allan Wallace
Register: Baptisms 1838 - 1845, Page 131, Entry 1046
Source: LDS Film 1562963
Baptism: 27 Nov 1842 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Helen Fanny Hayes - [Child] of Samuel Hayes & Eliza
Abode: Winwick Street
Occupation: Hair Cutter
Baptised by: F A Bartlett
Register: Baptisms 1838 - 1845, Page 258, Entry 2061
Source: LDS Film 1562963
Baptism: 6 Apr 1845 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
John Hayes - [Child] of Samuel Hayes & Elizabeth Jane
Abode: Turners Fold
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: J H Sharples
Register: Baptisms 1838 - 1845, Page 399, Entry 3186
Source: LDS Film 1562963
Baptism: 12 Dec 1847 St Paul, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Mary Heys - Daugr of Samuel Mather Heys & Eliza Jane
Abode: Turner's Fold
Occupation: Wire Drawer
Baptised by: B. M. Huntington Curate
Register: Baptisms 1831 - 1855, Page 88, Entry 707
Source: Original Parish Register
Baptism: 14 Jul 1850 St Paul, Warrington, Lancashire, England
John Hayes - Son of Samuel Hayes & Jane
Abode: Town's End
Occupation: Wire Drawer
Baptised by: B. M. Huntington Curate
Register: Baptisms 1831 - 1855, Page 121, Entry 975
Source: Original Parish Register
Sorry if Jonw65 and others had already made this discovery/connection...I'm playing catch-up here after a very busy week, and there's a lot to go through based on the discoveries in this thread.
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And here are a few burials:
Burial: 13 Jan 1839 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Henry Searle Hayes -
Age: 4
Abode: Winwick Street
Buried by: Geo Richards Curate
Register: Burials 1836 - 1841, Page 142, Entry 1131
Source: LDS Film 1562962
Burial: 2 Dec 1846 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
John Hayes -
Age: 2
Abode: Turners Fold
Buried by: A A Bridgman
Register: Burials 1841 - 1847, Page 292, Entry 2333
Source: LDS Film 1562963
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Which still leaves the interesting question of 2 daughters named Elizabeth, one Christened in Warrington in Feb 1833 and the other in Portsmouth in Jul of the same year:
Baptism: 3 Feb 1833 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Hayes - Daur of Samuel Hayes & Jane
Abode: Townsend
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: T V Bayne
Register: Baptisms 1831 - 1835, Page 110, Entry 880
Source: LDS Film 1562962
Name: Elizabeth Jane Ann Hayes
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 31 Jul 1833
Baptism Place: Saint Thomas,Portsmouth,Hampshire,England
Father: Samuel Hayes
Mother: Eliza Jane
FHL Film Number: 919727, 919728
The Portsmouth event is the only Christening associated with parents Samuel and Eliza Jane in the Portsmouth area within a decade either side of 1833. I can find no other Christenings at all in England during the same timeframe with those parental names except for the known events in Warrington that we've already identified.
I'm struggling to correlate these events. The only possible explanation I can come up with is that the 2 events relate to the same person and that, for some reason, Samuel and Eliza Jane decided to have their daughter Elizabeth Christened twice, once in Portsmouth and once in Warrington. I'd be more accepting of that scenario if the Portsmouth event happened first but, unfortunately, it was the second event. I'm struggling to understand how/why a working class family would want, or have the ability, to travel from Warrington to Portsmouth and then return in such short order (given that Henry Searle Hayes was Christened in Warrington in 1835).
Any thoughts on this would be very much appreciated.
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I realise I'm somewhat talking to myself with all these posts (I'm trying to catch up with Jonw65).
I looked up the image of the marriage record for Samuel Heyes and Eliza Jane Searle in 1831. It seems that Samuel was in the British Army. Next to his name appears to be written "47 Regt" which might explain the movement to/from Ireland, and perhaps how Samuel met Eliza Jane.
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Hi Mark
Yes, there should be some sort of pension record for Samuel Hayes of the 47th Regiment. It will be on the site that also has the Portsmouth images (and I don't have!)
In the 1851 census I read his occupation as Pensioner, so am not surprised at the military angle. Could those birth places given in 1851 be a bit mixed up? :-\
Do you know what Samuel's occupation on the Portsmouth baptism was, because the info from ancestry is that he was discharged from the army in 1832
Samuel Hayes
Born 1792, Warington, Lancaster
Enlisted 1808
Discharged 1832
Reg 47th Regt Of Foot
Reg No. 14
That the same Elizabeth was baptized twice would certainly make sense, though I agree that it is not entirely logical! And there are those extra names.
John
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That army record in WO 97 is indexed on TNA
SAMUEL HAYES Born WARRINGTON, Lancashire Served in 47th Foot Regiment Discharged aged 40
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8759726
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Hi Mark
Yes, there should be some sort of pension record for Samuel Hayes of the 47th Regiment. It will be on the site that also has the Portsmouth images (and I don't have!)
In the 1851 census I read his occupation as Pensioner, so am not surprised at the military angle. Could those birth places given in 1851 be a bit mixed up? :-\
Do you know what Samuel's occupation on the Portsmouth baptism was, because the info from ancestry is that he was discharged from the army in 1832
Samuel Hayes
Born 1792, Warington, Lancaster
Enlisted 1808
Discharged 1832
Reg 47th Regt Of Foot
Reg No. 14
That the same Elizabeth was baptized twice would certainly make sense, though I agree that it is not entirely logical! And there are those extra names.
John
Hi Jon,
The Portsea Christening record lists Samuel's occupation as "Pensioner" which tallies with the known military information about him.
Looks like we're slowly (quite rapidly, actually) untangling this mystery, although there are still some confusing elements...like Elizabeth's extra names, as you said.
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There was an Eliza Jane Searle baptized in Portsea in 1809
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5K2-ZFJ
And ancestry also have Saml Hayes b 1792 of the 47th Foot in their Royal Hospital Kilmainham Pensioner Discharge Documents, 1724-1924.
Date of discharge 12/12/32
Hopefully that will tally. Was he then discharged in Ireland and then Elizabeth might have been born there in late 1832?
John
Eventually I will be able to look at these documents again. I hope!
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There was an Eliza Jane Searle baptized in Portsea in 1809
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5K2-ZFJ
And ancestry also have Saml Hayes b 1792 of the 47th Foot in their Royal Hospital Kilmainham Pensioner Discharge Documents, 1724-1924.
Date of discharge 12/12/32
Hopefully that will tally. Was he then discharged in Ireland and then Elizabeth might have been born there in late 1832?
John
Eventually I will be able to look at these documents again. I hope!
A late-1832 birth date for Elizabeth makes some sense, and tallies with her burial record in August 1901 which gives her birth year as 1832.
I saw the Christening record for Eliza Jane Searle in Portsea. Desipte all the Census records, it seems that neither Elizabeth nor her mother were actually Irish.
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Hi Mark
We all like to have Irish ancestors, or at least one or two!
My main male line goes back to Belfast and just outside, and before very long comes to a total stop :( Which is not unusual in Ireland!
So, although it is perhaps unexpected - and not really what I was expecting - you should have much better luck with Hayes in Warrington, and Searle in Portsmouth.
So a good result for you.
John
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It's an outstanding result on so many levels. I've cleared a blockage that's been bugging me for years. On top of it all, I managed to download Samuel's service record so I have specific dates, locations and even a physical description of the man. I have a lot of information to go through now.
I truly appreciate your help over the past few days. Your help has been absolutely invaluable. Thank you so much for all the time and searches you've expended on my behalf.
Kind regards,
Mark
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You're welcome!
Good luck.
John
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There was an Eliza Jane Searle baptized in Portsea in 1809
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5K2-ZFJ
And ancestry also have Saml Hayes b 1792 of the 47th Foot in their Royal Hospital Kilmainham Pensioner Discharge Documents, 1724-1924.
Date of discharge 12/12/32
Hopefully that will tally. Was he then discharged in Ireland and then Elizabeth might have been born there in late 1832?
John
Eventually I will be able to look at these documents again. I hope!
Hi John (yes, I finally clued into the fact that I was mis-spelling your name...sorry!),
Yes, the Kilmainham record does tally with Samuel. His service records discuss medical discharge due to a liver complaint in Oct 1832, and it appears he was finally discharged from hospital in Ireland on 12 Dec. That would definitely align with daughter Elizabeth being born in 1832.
I did some digging into Samuel's service record and he participated in the Battle of Vitoria and the Siege of San Sebastian, both in 1813. Following the Peninsula War his unit deployed to India and may have been involved in actions there, in Burma and in the Middle East. He certainly got around!
I've ordered birth and death certificates for a number of Elizabeth's siblings. Hope to get them in a week's time.
Kind regards,
Mark
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Hi Mark
Yes, Samuel seems to have one or two gongs. Army careers are always fascinating, and his looks to be action packed
I did wonder if Elizabeth might have been in the army birth indexes (if she was indeed born just before her father's discharge), but I think that was too much to hope for. Two baptisms will have to do :)
Let us know how you get on with those certs. Do you have a death for Samuel? :-\
John
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I'm working to find a death date for Samuel. According to the Census records, it appears he died sometime between 1861 and 1871.
The 1861 Census lists the family but, for some reason, Samuel is listed as "James". The surname is Heyes and his occupation is identified as "Pensioner" so I presume that it's still Samuel despite the error.
The 1871 Census appears to show that Eliza Jane has remarried to a Thomas Bate, a Railway Official who was born at Northwich, Cheshire. John Hayes, Samuel's and Eliza's youngest son, is living with his mother and step-father. He's the only other person in the household.
GRO lists the death of a Samuel Hayes in Warrington District in 1864 which is probably him:
HAYES, SAMUEL 71
GRO Reference: 1864 J Quarter in WARRINGTON Volume 08C Page 95
This date jives with the record of Eliza Jane remarrying:
Marriage: 30 Sep 1865 St Paul, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Thomas Bate - 62, Railway Policeman, Widower, Heath Street
Eliza Jane Hayes - 51, Widow, Silver Street
Groom's Father: Richard Bate, Labourer
Bride's Father: Henry Searle, Labourer
Witness: John Massey, (X); Jane Bruce, (X)
Married by Banns by: John D. Massingham
Register: Marriages 1865 - 1869, Page 18, Entry 35
Source: Original Parish Register
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Hi
That's a bonus in a way for Eliza Jane as it seems to fit that Portsea baptism.
For confirmation of the death of Samuel have you tried the WO 23 records on findmypast? I am at the disadvantage of being unable to see anything on that website until my local library reopens (if they haven't cancelled their sub by then!)
I think they give date of admission to pension, district of payment, and then in the yearly columns note any change in district and give date of death (if they go up as far as the pensioner's death!)
I can see a couple of Saml Hayes, 47th Foot, in the index.
John
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Hi John,
Yes, it took a little fettling with the search criteria on FindMyPast but I did find his death date as 16 June 1864 which matches the GRO Register entry of Q2 1864. His pension date was 12 Dec 1832 which matches the record of his discharge from the Kilmainham Hospital. His pension rate is given as 1s 7d.
There's an interesting note for the year 1861 which says "2 Lpool 1/9/61". Clearly that's something to do with Liverpool but I have no idea of the significance, unless it was a hospital admission?
The pension records do include some other variable information. The first record lists his home as Stockport while later it's listed, correctly, as Warrington. Maybe Stockport was the point to which the Army covered his transport costs home?
Cheers,
Mark
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Hi
Oh that is excellent. Don't have a burial though.
I don't know what "2 Lpool 1/9/61" is, as far as I know they usually only give the name of the district from which payments were made. Either Samuel moved (doesn't seem likely?) or perhaps there was a change in the pension districts. You need an expert opinion on that!
John
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Correct, I haven't found a burial date yet. I'll need to keep searching for that information.
Like you, I had hoped to find the birth record for Elizabeth in the records of children born to soldiers. However, if she was born in late 1832, then it's possible her birth was missed given the back-and-forth surrounding Samuel's discharge, coupled with the fact that he was apparently in hospital for much of the time due to his liver complaint.
One of the benefits of finding family members with military service (or a criminal record, for that matter) is that they often include a physical description and other little details, like the fact that he was a carder before enlisting. Samuel's discharge papers list his height as 5ft 6.5ins with light brown hair, grey eyes and a fresh complexion. His character was noted as "that of a good and highly efficient soldier, very seldom in hospital. As a Non-Commissioned Officer, very trustworthy, zealous and sober." It's not much...but it helps paint a picture of the man.
I think we've pretty much done this problem to death. Thanks to your help, I've discovered a tremendous amount of new information about my direct ancestors. I'll be posting another problem here shortly, though, as I have another direct ancestor, James Gamble, born in Ireland who stubbornly refuses to reveal any details.
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Received Samuel Hayes' death certificate. He died on 10 June 1864 at his residence, 30 Pinner's Brow, Warrington, Lancashire. His wife, Eliza Jane Hayes, was in attendance. Cause of death was bronchitis which he'd been suffering from for 18 months. Samuel was listed as 71 years old at the time of his death. His occupation is listed as "Wire Drawer - Journeyman."
I really love it when documentation completely confirms other details about a family. The Pinner's Brow location is interesting because I had some candidate burial dates for his parents, and both of those records also listed Pinner's Brow or Pinmaker's Brow which appears to confirm they were related to Samuel.
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Hi
Thanks for letting us know, excellent news.
Hope you get on well with those possible parents!
John
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Hi John,
The details for Samuel's parents look pretty solid. On enlisting, he gave his birth year as 1792 and that tallies well with all info about him down to his death certificate. The following Christening record is the only one in Warrington in the right timeframe:
Baptism: 13 May 1792 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Samuel Hayes - Son of Samuel Hayes & Betty
Occupation: Husbn
Register: Baptisms 1781 - 1812, Page 134, Entry 4103
Source: LDS Film 1562957
I've managed to find a marriage date for Samuel (the elder) and a Betty Latham in 1780, as well as 7 other children (in addition to Samuel (the younger)) born in the period 1781-1798.
Burial records indicate Samuel (the elder) died in 1815 while Betty died in 1827. I'm still working to identify parents for them.
Overall, this is a great result. Thanks (yet again!) for all the help. You really helped me overcome this blockage in my family tree.
Cheers,
Mark