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General => The Stay Safe Board => Topic started by: CaroleW on Friday 14 August 20 22:44 BST (UK)
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I was quite shocked today in Aldi - St Annes (Fylde) branch. In the first 2 aisles I counted 8 people without masks - mainly in the 20/30 age group.
2 were couples, a group of 3 young lads and a youth on his own. I accept some people have hidden disabilities but 8 on the same day in what is quite a small branch of Aldi???
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Probably some of the 'It won't happen to me ' brigade or else couldn't care less. Well apparently there'll be action taken against such people but how that would work in practice I don't know.
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The only way to enforce it is for some form of ID to be issued to those exempt. It would give shops and other places the authority to ban people not wearing a mask and without ID. It would also enable police to issue fines
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I managed to speak with my Dr. today ,re the withdrawal of Ranitidine .
She decided I needed a check up for various things so appt on 28 th .
Now, if I walk down I won’t be able to walk back as uphill all the way,so I could walk down and get the bus back ,but quite honestly I am really apprehensive about the whole thing .
I have observed lockdown completely and have not been out since January 10 th, and my first eye operation ,could not see well enough to be out really .
I have masks .
No visitors ,other than son dropping some shopping off outside and leaving, Grandson and family staying outside garden ,three or four metres away from me during the two or three visits they have made.
Tesco delivery on the step ,me inside the house after opening the door whilst driver at the gate.
I wish I did not have to go , but need to.
There is a rise in numbers in the Bury area ,I will see in the intervening fortnight how things go.
I think stores ought to refuse entry to people not wearing masks, but that might mean encounters of a nasty kind for some poor doorman/ security staff personnel.
I know some people with certain conditions find masks very difficult .
Some people are being very selfish whilst others are going all out to comply and help as much as they can,sewing ,working long hours etc .
So wait and see, the decision might very well not be mine in the end..
Viktoria,
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The possibility of intervention by the supermarket staff seems to be the problem, they don't think that they should be the ones to police it, I'm inclined to agree with them.
As an asthmatic I don't find it very easy to wear a mask but I wouldn't not wear one where necessary, I've only worn one for a few minutes on the couple of occasions I've gone to pay when visiting the plant nurseries and must admit I couldn't wait to take it off. I suppose I'll get used to it although I'm not intending visiting any other shops.
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I agree with CaroleW that some form of ID as proof of exemption... perhaps a card on a lanyard so it's clear and visible...
A friend of mine told me she'd been in to our local small Aldis and had counted 5 people not wearing a face covering but not challenged by staff... sadly there are some people who think these rules don't apply to them...
One of my OH's golf partners went into the pro shop without wearing one and got a ticking off told not to come in again without one!
OH is constantly telling him to keep his distance, he mentioned he and wife were going to a 40th wedding anniversary party in the garden...
he also lives Northampton where they've just had 290 positives cases and it's a town of concern...
OH' going to tell him he can't see him anymore on the golf course it's too risky... this chap has Parkinson's ... you'd think he'd be more careful... he's a retired Head Teacher so not stupid.
Having made over 450 face coverings for local group to distribute im very keen on them being worn!
Caroline
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Why should someone with a hidden illness have to prove it to anyone, least of all a bunch of strangers in the supermarket?
We went months with practically no-one wearing them and I'm not aware of a single outbreak linked to Asda/Lidl/Tesco/Waitrose etc, so if a handful of people still don't wear a mask for whatever reason then that's their business, not mine.
I wear one because its 'the rules' but I'm far from convinced about the extent of any benefit from them and have drastically cut back on visiting local shops because of it. It seems we don't have to wear them in situations where we'll actually be talking to each other (at work, in the pub etc), but we do in situations where we generally wander around in silence (eg browsing in a shop, art gallery etc).
Unless the people in Aldi were shouting/spitting/coughing everywhere, then its highly unlikely they presented any risk whatsoever, and certainly not enough to justify demands for people with illnesses to have to prove it.
You might have guessed that I'm a libertarian ;D
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"You might have guessed that I'm a libertarian"
Well, bully for you.
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"You might have guessed that I'm a libertarian"
Well, bully for you.
Really? Any need? Or are we only allowed one viewpoint on here these days?
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OH has COPD, and is under doctors orders to walk for 20-30 minutes every day. We walk in the local shopping centre, about 07:00, before the mass of shoppers are around.
When we go shopping, we were a mask for the time period we are in the shops, but when we get back to the car, we remove them, so we can breath properly.
AC
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Several of my family members are Asthmatics and they have "raided,' our home made face guards that we originally made years ago .... to avoid splashing glue and etc from craft projects into eyes .... they cover similar surface area to the full face shields that nurses wear, so protect eyes, nose, mouth, chin, forehead, around to the ears. We used clear "document wallets" from the local stationery shop, but I now know that the big hardware house with the Buggings hammer or similar has the craft face shield for $3 each.
JM
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The only way to enforce it is for some form of ID to be issued to those exempt. It would give shops and other places the authority to ban people not wearing a mask and without ID. It would also enable police to issue fines
Why not just imprison those exempt people, it would be for their own good!!!
Do you not realise how may times disabled people with hidden disabilities get challenged. They have to come to terms with their limited abilities but such challenges destroy what confidence they have.
Instead of demanding they prove they are exempt give them the benefit of the doubt and assume if they are not wearing a mask they are exempt and let them live their lives in peace.
If you are frightened of being infected by them keep away from them, you are possibly more dangerous to them than they are to you.
Do not forget in the UK a person is innocent until proved to be guilty by a court of law we do not prejudge people.
Cheers
Guy
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Even libertarian's can contract Covid19 and pass it on to others ;D
Whilst I am also not convinced of the benefit of masks I will abide by the rules and therefore expect others to do the same irrespective of their personal feelings or views.
In normal circumstances I would not expect anybody to "prove their illness" but these are not normal times and people are quite deliberately pretending they are exempt because they think they are clever and can get away with it.
Failure to produce some form of ID would give staff justification to refuse admission and therefore protect other shoppers.
Surely a genuine person would not object??
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How can you be sure that even those wearing face coverings are actually helping to stop the virus spreading? Aren't they supposed to be washed or disposed of after use or they lose their effectiveness. How may people do you think do this? Most probably they are not effective at all in preventing someone with coronavirus spreading the disease even though wearing a face covering.
Pheno
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Surely a genuine person would not object??
Turn the question round the other way would you object if you had to prove everywhere you go you did not have any illness any deodorant any perfume that could affect any person or anything you come into contact with?
I do not think you would last very long before it became very tiring and wearing on you, in fact I expect you may even object to me making such a suggestion, but that is how many disabled people feel every single day of their lives.
Some have to put up with such victimisation when they have invisible disabilities when they park, or their driver parks in a disabled bay even when they have a perfect right to do so.
My wife for instance has epilepsy and is entitled for a bus pass, she used to have one but when it came to renewal she was refused and told she would have to have a letter from her doctor to prove she had epilepsy. A letter from a specialist containing her details since 4 years old specifying her condition was long term and would not change was not enough for those jobsworths so my wife cancelled her application for a bus pass. That is the kind of effect you "Surely a genuine person would not object?" has.
Many disabled people do not apply for assistance because to that type of reaction.
Cheers
Guy
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If you go to the Asthma UK website there is a printable sheet which says "I am exempt from wearing a face covering, I have asthma". It also gives a link to the government site where there are 2 printable sheets.
My wife has severe asthma, often triggered by a sudden change in temperature, pollen, dust, gust of wind in her face. I printed out all the down loads, trimmed and laminated them. Added a "stay-fresh clip" and she has a label large enough to be read at a distance of 6 feet.
She has yet to be accused of anything, but we have had many enquiries.
Regards
Chas
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If you go to the Asthma UK website there is a printable sheet which says "I am exempt from wearing a face covering, I have asthma". It also gives a link to the government site where there are 2 printable sheets.
My wife has severe asthma, often triggered by a sudden change in temperature, pollen, dust, gust of wind in her face. I printed out all the down loads, trimmed and laminated them. Added a "stay-fresh clip" and she has a label large enough to be read at a distance of 6 feet.
She has yet to be accused of anything, but we have had many enquiries.
Regards
Chas
At last someone who accepts the situation isn't as normally and you've actually created what I suggested in my previous post.
It isn't labelling people as outcasts but does mean that those who can be quite accusatory will see straight away why a face covering is not being worn. I applaud you for putting your wife at ease.
Whilst this is a difficult situation for EVERYONE and is not necessarily going to prevent anyone contracting covid 19 perhaps it makes some feel more comfortable... what ever people's personal views are as to whether this is a good idea or not we have all been requested to do this for the good of us all.
It has been clear that those people who think the requests don't pertain to them and they can go about willy nilly, it's about time they gave some thought to the effects they are having on those who are more vulnerable in our society.
Caroline
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Do you not realise how may times disabled people with hidden disabilities get challenged
From my earlier reply
In normal circumstances I would not expect anybody to "prove their illness" but these are not normal times
How can you be sure that even those wearing face coverings are actually helping to stop the virus spreading?
From my reply above
Whilst I am also not convinced of the benefit of masks I will abide by the rules and therefore expect others to do the same irrespective of their personal feelings or views
If somebody has reused a face mask - I would think the problem is then on their own side of the mask as that is the part they have breathed/coughed into etc ???
Given the huge number of deaths & serious nature of this virus coupled with the current increase in cases etc - If I was exempt - I would have absolutely no objection to being asked to provide an exemption certificate as proof. Everybody has a duty of care.
I know somebody who travels each day from Manchester by train to Preston. He told me people get on the train wearing masks for show then take them off. Other passengers are unwilling to confront them so they get away with it time and time again.
Remind me again of all the places currently in a second lockdown because people are not abiding by the rules? Packed beaches - shoulder to shoulder etc etc etc
If genuinely exempt persons had to carry proof of exemption - stores would then be able to display notices re refusal to admit etc and it would soon stop those who deliberately flout the law.
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Even libertarian's can contract Covid19 and pass it on to others ;D
Yes, they can, and as I've said, I do reluctantly wear one despite being less than convinced that they actually achieve much, or that many of the 'rules' make any sense.
What I strongly object to though is the perceived right to demand that others prove (to them) that they are exempt. How do you know they haven't already explained quietly to the store manager?
If the Government had decreed that exempt people had to wear something about their clothing as 'proof' of their status there would have been an outcry from many health / charity organisations, and rightly so.
A 'genuine person' should not have to prove anything to the chattering masses - its nobody's business but their own, regardless of any circumstances. I'm 100% with Guy on this one.
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This is the site I mentioned -
https://www.asthma.org.uk/advice/triggers/coronavirus-covid-19/what-should-people-with-asthma-do-now/should-i-wear-a-face-mask-or-face-covering/ (https://www.asthma.org.uk/advice/triggers/coronavirus-covid-19/what-should-people-with-asthma-do-now/should-i-wear-a-face-mask-or-face-covering/)
If you scroll down, there are links for the major transport providers and the government exemption site.
Regards
Chas
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Given the huge number of deaths & serious nature of this virus coupled with the current increase in cases etc - If I was exempt - I would have absolutely no objection to being asked to provide an exemption certificate as proof. Everybody has a duty of care.
Do you know how many disabled people commit suicide due to society pressure on them?
Data from NHS Digital’s Adult Psychiatric Morbidity Survey (APMS) 2007, which surveyed around 7,000 adults in Britain, shows 21 per cent of Incapacity Benefit claimants had tried to take their own lives, compared with 6 per cent of the general adult population.
A later 2017 report which was not causal effect linked (so I have not used their higher figures) also states “...the extent that physically disabled people view themselves as a constant burden to others, and the practical and theoretical importance of identifying potentially modifiable factors that amplify or moderate the risk associated with suicidal behaviour.”
Are you even concerned, obviously not because you want to rub salt into the wounds and make them prove they have a legal right to go about their business legally in the way they choose. It may seem insignificant to you but to a person who feels themselves a burden to society such a little thing as having to prove they don't have to wear a face mask could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
If you are worried about people shopping without wearing a face covering exert your right and wait until those without face coverings have left the shop, or shop somewhere else such as online, but don't insist that those who are exempt from having to wear a face covering prove the fact, they have enough problems to cope with every day of their lives.
Cheers
Guy
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but to a person who feels themselves a burden to society such a little thing as having to prove they don't have to wear a face mask could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
Do you object to people being scanned at an airport for weapons etc - there is no regard for disability there as safety is the overriding concern?
Covid19 is no different except it is an invisible killer - as has been proved by the worldwide death rate.
If you are worried about people shopping without wearing a face covering exert your right and wait until those without face coverings have left the shop,
Why should I have to wait outside for heavens knows how long because some people are deliberately flouting the rules?
At the moment - there is no way a shop can enforce the rule as there would be an outcry of "victimisation" should they attempt to do so. A discreet exemption card could be issued without any need to mention the persons actual disability.
If somebody has proved they are exempt - that's fine by me. My post is not aimed at the genuine - it's aimed at the people who are jumping on the bandwagon and pretending they are exempt to avoid wearing a mask. In doing so they also give the genuinely exempt a bad name and create suspicion.
If verification were issued - if I saw somebody without a mask instore I would then know they were genuinely exempt
My local Aldi is quite a small store and to see 8 people without masks was questionable. I have not encountered a single instance in the larger supermarkets nor in B & Q.
Aldi is the only store here who no longer has an attendant on duty controlling admission - I wonder if there is a connection?
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Uptake on wearing masks hereaboots very high. Have yet to see anybody not compliant. Some shops have the staff back wearing them as visors not good enough! Must be a long day!
Skoosh.
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Uptake on wearing masks hereaboots very high. Have yet to see anybody not compliant. Some shops have the staff back wearing them as visors not good enough! Must be a long day!
Skoosh.
Same around here - pretty much everyone is wearing a face covering and I'm happy to give the others the benefit of the doubt.
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I guess there must be a higher proportion of 'disabled' people in Britain than in Ecuador. Fancy coming across eight of them, all young and all with respiratory disablement, in one store at the same time. Here, everyone wears a mask when out in public, even the very, very sketchy family? [or is it an association of some kind?] of drug dealers and scammers who live in the abandoned building a half block up the street.
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but to a person who feels themselves a burden to society such a little thing as having to prove they don't have to wear a face mask could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
Do you object to people being scanned at an airport for weapons etc - there is no regard for disability there as safety is the overriding concern?
Covid19 is no different except it is an invisible killer - as has been proved by the worldwide death rate.[/quote]
I cannot believe you cannot see the difference between scanning everyone passing through an airport or scanning a random sample of people at an airport and demanding that every exempt person has to prove that have a condition that exempts them from wearing a face covering.
One is random and untargeted the other selective and discrimanatory.
If you are worried about people shopping without wearing a face covering exert your right and wait until those without face coverings have left the shop,
Why should I have to wait outside for heavens knows how long because some people are deliberately flouting the rules?
You would not have to that would be your free choice, you could choose just to keep clear of anyone not wearing a face covering, it's very simple really.
Of course a few people may be flouting the rules, but it is possible every one of those people you have seen has a genuine reason not to wear a face covering.
Perhaps you would be happy if everyone carried one of the “official exemption” cards-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ptq/
There you are print your own then you will not have to wear a face covering. Does that make you happy, does that make you safer,?
Pity it is not worth the paper it is printed on as everyone could print their own card.
You see where the problem is to be worth anything at all the cards would have to be only available after an examination to ensure the person requires to be exempt.
At the moment - there is no way a shop can enforce the rule as there would be an outcry of "victimisation" should they attempt to do so. A discreet exemption card could be issued without any need to mention the persons actual disability.
If somebody has proved they are exempt - that's fine by me. My post is not aimed at the genuine - it's aimed at the people who are jumping on the bandwagon and pretending they are exempt to avoid wearing a mask. In doing so they also give the genuinely exempt a bad name and create suspicion.
If verification were issued - if I saw somebody without a mask instore I would then know they were genuinely exempt
No your post is discriminating directly against “the genuine” as you call them, as you would require them to undergo medical tests for them to mean anything. Of course those tests would be done out of your sight and therefore out of your conscious, therefore you would not feel guilty about having those tests done.
Cheers
Guy
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I despair about the state of paranoia in the UK regarding Covid. It is clear that the death rate is very low and decreasing and that a high proportion of new infections are lacking in any significant symptoms. The Government have been forced to admit that they have been falsely inflating death figures. The average age of those who have died is in the mid 80s and even then it is accompanied with comorbidities.
Despite this fear still stalks the streets, much of our healthcare system is barely operating, thousands of jobs are lost every week, our young people face a bleak future, our economy is devastated; the hugely negative effects of the draconian measures taken to deal with an illness now demonstrably far less serious than feared back in March will be with us for many years. As for face masks frankly they are prolonging the misery while almost certainly conferring no benefit.
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I keep reading about lanyards or badges with sunflowers on them being worn by those with a valid reason not to wear a mask - although I've yet to see one.
I'm just cautiously returning to normal shopping & definitely wearing a mask at all times - in a pretty empty Poundland last week I was aware a young man had walked past me down an aisle but I was intent on looking at the shelves. Then I heard him call out laughing 'You should be social distancing'. I turned round as his partner (masked) & child walked past me. She was muttering something about 'this virus' which I didn't really catch (no hearing aids in - a blessing sometimes) & caught him up. Then I noticed he wasn't wearing a mask (no sunflower lanyard). By the smug grin on his face as he walked off I concluded the only reason for what he said was to intimidate the 'old girl' (me) & show his contempt for those who follow the rules ???
After 40 years teaching in high school I'm not easily intimidated ;D
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I despair about the state of paranoia in the UK regarding Covid. It is clear that the death rate is very low and decreasing and that a high proportion of new infections are lacking in any significant symptoms.
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As for face masks frankly they are prolonging the misery while almost certainly conferring no benefit.
Sorry I dispute your two claims 'lacking in any significant symptoms' & 'almost certainly conferring no benefit'
Currently the medical authorities are puzzling over what they are calling 'long Covid' where young people in their 20s & 30s had mild symptoms maybe 3 months ago & yet are suffering a wide range of lingering effects more serious than originally displayed.
As for little benefit derived from face masks - why do doctors and vets performing surgery wear masks? To protect themselves or the patient? Whichever the reason, masks have been considered protective for a very long time.
I read today an account by a doctor who was shocked at the start of the outbreak to be told not to intubate 60 year olds with one co-morbidity, in his words 'that could be a healthy 60 year old with well-controlled type 2 diabetes'
I'm not taking the chance of being that person.
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Fancy coming across eight of them, all young and all with respiratory disablement, in one store at the same time.
Which is exactly the point I was making in my opening post. It's a small branch of Aldi so to find 8 was exceptional. They were all young and I doubt anybody would have wanted to confront them as 5 were males and 3 of those 5 were a group. That is what they rely on and get away with it as a result
If proof of exemption had to be provided - they could legitimately be asked to leave or be refused access.
No your post is discriminating directly against “the genuine” as you call them, as you would require them to undergo medical tests for them to mean anything. Of course those tests would be done out of your sight and therefore out of your conscious, therefore you would not feel guilty about having those tests done.
Total rubbish - the genuine will already be registered with a GP so their condition is on record. How would an asthmatic get an inhaler etc etc so why would they have to undergo medical tests?
cannot believe you cannot see the difference between scanning everyone passing through an airport or scanning a random sample of people at an airport and demanding that every exempt person has to prove that have a condition that exempts them from wearing a face covering.
One is random and untargeted the other selective and discrimanatory.
There is nothing random about scanning at airports. Every traveller passes through a scanner
Opting Out of the Airport Scanners
In the United States, the law is that you can opt out of the scan and be subject to the touching search instead. In contrast, the UK Department for Transport has decided that any passenger refusing to pass through the body scanner will not fly.
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When I am shopping I am not standing over open wounds - I cannot see any logic in your analogy.
Presumably the logic of your position is that you would advocate the wearing of face masks for ever more in the UK to protect us against the many ailments which we can all catch and which can, particularly in conjunction with other issues, can prove fatal for some.
We all need to take a far more balanced and informed view of risk than is being exhibited by those who are living in fear of the now much attenuated Covid.
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When I am shopping I am not standing over open wounds - I cannot see any logic in your analogy.
Presumably the logic of your position is that you would advocate the wearing of face masks for ever more in the UK to protect us against the many ailments which we can all catch and which can, particularly in conjunction with other issues, can prove fatal for some.
No - I just want people to abide by the ruling introduced by the Government from and including 24th July. I don't like wearing one - particularly in this hot weather and it steams my specs up - but I do not intend to break the rules.
For what period we have to continue wearing them is not up to us. Just as the Government made the current decision - they will decide when we can stop.
At that point - it will be for individuals to make a personal decision whether to continue to wear one
I have asked the moderator to lock this post
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Those people contributing to this thread might just take a breath and read through what has been 'said', as I have just done.
Then think about your civil liberties and how those liberties can become, first, blurred at the edges, and finally eroded altogether. Woe betide anyone who doesn't conform, obey 'the rules', dares to think for themselves and reaches their own conclusions.
You will automatically come back with 'its for everyone's good' but are you really convinced of that or are you just accepting what you've been told? I absolutely loathe face masks - both wearing one and seeing others wearing them, as if they're convinced they will drop down dead without one. Strangely, we went months being told they weren' t effective but then - about turn - all of a sudden they're compulsory and absolutely key to not passing on or catching this virus which, incidentally, now accounts for far fewer deaths than other conditions.
If you consider yourself vulnerable to the virus, you are perfectly capable (as your posts confirm) of taking your own steps to avoid it without being commanded what to do and what not to do. Most people are quite capable of doing this - those that aren't are those who probably wouldn't give a tinker's for anyone else anyway.
Please, think what you are losing and where these directives come from - a bunch of mediocrities who think its more important to open pubs and restaurants than it is to open schools. Mediocrities who decided months ago that exams couldn't go ahead (even though they always take place in circumstances which must be the epitome of social distancing, for more obvious reasons). They then had all that time to decide what was going to happen - and, guess what, they got it wrong. Again!
Rant over, but please guard your civil liberties with your lives. It can happen here!
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Total rubbish - the genuine will already be registered with a GP so their condition is on record. How would an asthmatic get an inhaler etc etc so why would they have to undergo medical tests?
Yes, almost everyone will be registered with a GP, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the condition which prevents someone wearing a mask is on their medical records. Moreover, GPs are specifically being told that it isn't up to them to provide exemption certificates, and that it's a self-certification system.
Clearly there are those of a rebellious nature who refuse to wear a face covering, but there also seem to be a significant number of people who think that once you're wearing one you don't need to bother about keeping your distance, which to my mind is equally anti-social.