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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: susiee on Tuesday 18 August 20 06:20 BST (UK)
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Im looking for a birth or Baptism in NSW or Victoria for Henrietta Maria Scales parents Ellen Hennesy and John Scales at Snowy Creek Vic/ I have their first 3 children's Baptisms in NSW 1852/4/6/ then they move to Victoria, and the next is Ellen Mary- Vic Reg 1860 . We have everything from marriage on but not sure if she was born in Vic or NSW and cant find anything in either place . Some talk she was a twin but she still would be accounted for. Not sure where to look next . Any ideas ?
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On the Vic bdm for Ellen, is your Henrietta accounted for in Ellen's older siblings? :)
JM
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When and where did Henrietta Maria SCALES marry?
Birth records for her children born NSW or Victoria would have mothers' birthplace?
BDM VIC birth
22438/1860 SCALES Mary Ellen parents Ellan HENNESSY / John @ SNOW
23708/1862 SCALES John parents Ellen ENESSEE / John @ SNOW
24714/1867 SCALES Nathen Alfred parents Ellen HENNESSY / John @ SNOWY CK
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I'm thinking that given the dates and places (Snowy Ck/Mitta Mitta) that possibly John Scales came to Vic from NSW for Gold and perhaps Henrietta's birth was not registered at all.
She took out a lease in Hinnomunjie (Omeo district) in 1891 as below:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/256321829?searchTerm=%22henrietta%20scales%22
There is a marriage in 1906 to Peter Larsen in Victoria, and her death in 1934 at Tallangatta. So if you have her death certificate does that give her age and place of birth?
shume australia
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An 1937 obit mentions that she was 78Y (b abt 1858/9), but the death idx mentions 77Y (abt 1859/60).
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/102692194
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What documents do you have for BDM events in the lives of the people you have named here?
BDM VIC death
11952/1939 SAFE Diana Jane parents Ellen HENNESSY / SCALES John
born Mitta Mitta Victoria died Caulfield age 73
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Can some one remind me of where the reply icon is- the reply at the top only opens another box I dont use this often and totally forgotten how to use it
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John Scales has the children listed on the death cert i have attached .
Henrietta only ever had one child 1889 - and she was never listed on her death cert nor did the Father list the child name on his own death cert . -
All of John and Ellen's children are accounted except
John - listed as first child - so probably born NSW - they arrived 1852 no record
William Scales 1854 Baptism Sydney - prob died as infant no further entries anywhere -ever
Diana Francis - no record but listed last on Father death cert - cant find her anywhere -
But the one we want to find is Henriettas - the others are very likely to have al died as infants as no further record - But Henrietta we know lived and Married quite late on her 40 from memory nand no children .No one has listed her anywhere - except on the fathers death cert _BUT there is some talk that maybe she was born outside that marriage to Ellen ? but no birth can be foud the others that lived are all accounted for . Not sure how to individually reply so will post this
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Ellens death cert
Thank you everyone for your replies -- i somehow have forgotten where the individual reply button is .
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See the link at reply #4 to see names of siblings.
VIC BDM birth
11297/1866 SCALES Diana Jane parents Ellen / John @ Snowy C
VIC BDM death
11952/1939 SAFE Diana Jane parents Ellen HENNESSY / SCALES John
born Mitta Mitta died Caulfield age 73
PROV Probate file SCALES Henry d. 4 Oct 1924
names.....William Samuel SCALES, Henrietta LARSEN, Mary Helen SHEEHAN, Diana Jane SAFE and Nathan SCALE.
You need to see the birth certificate for a child born after Henrietta because it will record other issue....earlier births.
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On the Vic bdm for Ellen, is your Henrietta accounted for in Ellen's older siblings? :)
JM
This would be a document with first hand info from Henrietta's parent who would have been registering Henrietta's younger sister.
If Henrietta is not accounted for there, then perhaps you should seek out the birth cert for Nathan.... he is likely the youngest child.
JM
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Thanks Wivenhoe.
Im not sure that even seeing her siblings actual certs with her name on it would suffice because there is nothing stopping them just writing her down on the cert at the time and if she had been bought in as a baby and --- implanted --- into the family its still no proof we really need Hennriettas actual Birth or Baptism record
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The information provided by the informant on Vic BDM birth cert or a NSW BDM birth cert includes details about not just the baby whose birth is being registered, but the older babies born to that couple. It does not include implanted children raised by that couple.
In that sense, the birth certs are a far more reliable source of family history info for they include details about the baby's parents, the baby's older siblings, the baby's birthplace, the midwife/nurse/doctor/witnesses to the birth. On the other hand the death cert info has a section that includes family history .... so it includes info about either parent their spouse/s and children born within each marriage and is recognised by genealogists as far less reliable as the informant is really only sharing their own imperfect knowledge which, if a family member, is being given at a time of grief.
A baptism record has scant info and is less reliable than a Victoria or NSW bdm birth cert for 1850s and 1860s. It does not give details of when/where the baby's parents married, or where/when those parents were born or any details of the baby's older siblings.
It is important to remember that the rural deputy registrars, in NSW at least were meant to forward quarterly returns to their head office, but that there was no formal procedure checking up if the returns were not received. In the 1856-1860s timeframe in NSW, the Royal Mail coaches were often bailed up, it was not just gold that was taken, but the bills of exchange, land transactions etc. Quarterly returns for bdm were in with the Land Titles documents, afterall they were all destined for the same Registrar General. Likely a similar admin system existed in Victoria.
There have been probate cases that relied on proof of birth noted on the youngest childs birth cert as it listed all the older siblings of that child.
JM
Thanks Wivenhoe.
Im not sure that even seeing her siblings actual certs with her name on it would suffice because there is nothing stopping them just writing her down on the cert at the time and if she had been bought in as a baby and --- implanted --- into the family its still no proof we really need Hennriettas actual Birth or Baptism record
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Thanks for your message W
Over the years i have had people say they are very confident that there have been children taken in by families that have ended up being included on certs as genetically their own, probably pretty rare and still illegal even i the early days but def happended. I think its odd that they have gone to a lot of trouble to baptise their children in 1852/4/6 in Sydney except the ones we think were very early infant deaths, but not baptise or register Henrietta.
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Thanks for your message W
Over the years i have had people say they are very confident that there have been children taken in by families that have ended up being included on certs as genetically their own, probably pretty rare and still illegal even i the early days but def happended. I think its odd that they have gone to a lot of trouble to baptise their children in 1852/4/6 in Sydney except the ones we think were very early infant deaths, but not baptise or register Henrietta.
Just because you cannot find the civil birth registration for Henrietta in the late 1850s in either Vic or NSW it does NOT mean that she was implanted into the family. It only means you have not located an extant record of her actual birth registration. It is entirely possible that her birth was registered in a rural area of NSW if the parents were in transit to the colony of Victoria. It is entirely possible that NSW BDM head office Sydney has simply NOT ever processed a quarterly return that included her birth.
JM
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Thanks JM -
I obviously do not know but was including it as a possibily only
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When my grandfather was born in 1877 near Ballarat in Victoria his oldest brother was 24, so born about 1853. After many years searching I have not found anything about his birth. As JM said the Victorian birth certificates are a fantastic source of information.
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Thanks Nanna
Agree, and i have nearly all of them
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At least ONE of the NSW Baptisms for this family seems to be indexed at NSW BDM :
Volume 71, line 1731, in 1854
William SCALES, father as John, mother as Ellen.
Volume 71 is for Roman Catholic Baptisms.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856
I am familiar with the history of the long running disputes in NSW between the Churches and the Parliament re the introduction of the civil registration for Births, Deaths, Marriages. The debates cover many issues, but the paramount aspect was that it was entirely possible that persons of any denomination were able to handle and read and process the details found in the sacred records of each denomination, and the concern was for the 'contamination' effect of such handling. It commenced in one form as early as 1810 and it continued in various forms until at least 1895.
JM
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Is this Henrietta's child? Ancestry.com.au
Name: Mary Helen Scales
Birth Date: Abt 1890
Birth Place: Mitta Mitta, Victoria
Registration Year: 1890
Registration Place: Victoria, Australia
Father: Scales
Mother: Hetta Scales
Registration Number: 5923
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Associated thread:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=835114.0
Debra :)
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John - listed as first child - so probably born NSW - they arrived 1852 no record
It is not possible for John to be the first child born in NSW. They married in 1850 at Kilrush (note this is not a Catholic marriage)...
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1850/09390/5401522.pdf
They arrived in NSW in January 1852, (his parents John and Mary living near Kilrush, her parents Michael and Mary HENNESSEY, mother living near Kilrush). Henry was born on 19 July 1852.
Debra :)
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This is all rather cryptic, and maybe I missed the information, but....
you are researching the origins of this woman ? -
9254/1916 LARSEN Mary marr. BAILLIE, David Martin
Otherwise, can you identify the person whose origins you are researching, and the earliest evidence you have that the person ever existed.
If it is the BAILLIE marriage can you please list all the information on the marriage certificate.
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Might be a side track ... but Vic BDM online index has :
Jno Isaac SCALES and Margt Sophia LARSEN were the parents noted when Mary Minerva SCALES birth was registered 1902, Mitta Mitta. #28183.
In an earlier post on a different thread, there's mention that he was the informant for the birth registration and that his signature then (Feb 1890) :
'looked to me like an elderly person signed it really and he was 30 ish'
But perhaps it would be worthwhile comparing signatures to confirm the identity of the person registering the birth
Associated thread:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=835114.0
Debra :)
JM
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Thanks everyone for your replies im having some trouble replying individually so i will put them togeather .
Thanks Debra
Yes a Scales Married larsen and vice versa ! and he was Henriettas Brother .
Debra about the signature i saw that as well and it really got me wondering it looked really elderly.
Wivenhoe, no its not that marriage.Thank you .
Thanks Dundee. Yep that makes sense . Couldnt be the first .
Shume yes that is supposed to be her daughter. Henrietta and Harry Andrews were not married and he is not on the birth cert but accepted as the Father. However she at some point changed her name to her Fathers------Andrews / and then in 1916 she had her Mothers name entered onto the registration as Mary Glass in a Congreagational Church no witnesses only Clergyman and his wife and daughter
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1889 Birth cert Mary Helen
Henrietta Larson death cert
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Thank you for the image of the marriage certificate. When and how have you come by this document?
"...no witnesses only Clergyman and his wife and daughter"
I read this to mean that the marriage certificate has the name of the clergyman....and the wife and the daughter of the clergyman?
I see Minister Jesse MAYO.......what names do you see for his wife and his daughter?
I think you have a partial / incomplete image. It should name witnesses.
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I have literally just typed the whole cert and it crashed . grrrrrr i might use the phone .
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Denomination -Congregational
Parish or District -Collingwood
June 12 1916
Ernest Fredieric Harris
Mary Helen Andrews
Bachelor
Spinster
South Australia
Victoria
Mining Engineer
Home Duties
35 yr
24 yr
Present address
Caledonian Hotel Broken Hill
Caledonian Hotel Broken Hill
Usual Address
Caledonian Hotel Broken Hill
Caledonian Hotel Broken Hill
Father
Frederick Edward Harris
Sarah Locke
ClergyMan Jesse Mayo
Witnesses
Annie Mayo
Lucy Mayo
Signed Jesse Mayo
The person who sent me some certs has sent them on their phone which has split them into pieces and made a real mess of them .
MARY GLASS....................................................We had thought Henrietta Scales
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Mary Glass was typed immediately under Sarah Locke ( Mothers) dont know how that got moved !!!
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Thank you for the image of the marriage certificate. When and how have you come by this document?
"...no witnesses only Clergyman and his wife and daughter"
I read this to mean that the marriage certificate has the name of the clergyman....and the wife and the daughter of the clergyman?
I see Minister Jesse MAYO.......what names do you see for his wife and his daughter?
I think you have a partial / incomplete image. It should name witnesses.
This is the 1950 death notice of Annie Agnes wife of Rev Jesse MAYO
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22817105
The daughters were Annie, Lucy, Ethel, Doris, and Gwendolyn.
Sons Albert Frederick, Frank and Reginald.
Sue
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Denomination -Congregational
Parish or District -Collingwood
June 12 1916
Ernest Fredieric Harris
Mary Helen Andrews
Bachelor
Spinster
South Australia
Victoria
Mining Engineer
Home Duties
35 yr
24 yr
Present address
Caledonian Hotel Broken Hill
Caledonian Hotel Broken Hill
Usual Address
Caledonian Hotel Broken Hill
Caledonian Hotel Broken Hill
Father
Frederick Edward Harris
Sarah Locke
ClergyMan Jesse Mayo
Witnesses
Annie Mayo
Lucy Mayo
Signed Jesse Mayo
The person who sent me some certs has sent them on their phone which has split them into pieces and made a real mess of them .
MARY GLASS....................................................We had thought Henrietta Scales
So we should be looking for a birth registration for a daughter of Mary GLASS. 1916 - 24 = 1892 so 1889, 1890, 1891, 1882, 1893, 1894... The marriage info provided in the quote above is not indicating if GLASS was the then (1916) surname or a former married surname, or a nee surname, but it is a start point. The bride was entitled to use any name she chose to be known by i.e, no need to formally change by deed poll or any other announcement. She was not compelled to choose only a surname, and only between the reputed father's surname and the surname used by her mum in 1890ish.
I cannot see how the 1916 m.c. supports any connection to the bride being the lass whose birth was registered by John Isaac SCALES in 1890 and discussed in that other thread...
JM.
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Re the image of the 1916 marriage...
If this were my ancestor, I would save up and find $20 and purchase my own copy of that image direct from the Vic BDM.
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history
Discounted certificates
Due to the popularity of our discounted certificates, we are continuing this offer. Downloadable, uncertified historical certificates are now $20 each: save $4.50 per certificate.
JM
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Re The Caledonian Hotel, Broken Hill.
NSW ER 1913 STURT, polling Argent Street.
Hugh Lawrence FARRELL, Mica St, Hotel keeper.
Sands 1917 Directory Broken Hill
H FARRELL, Caledonian Hotel
JM
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Thanks everyone .
Ill actually get that person to email it to me so it does not fragment .
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The marriage certificate, 1916, is barely legible. I suspect that it has been copied endlessly....copied to death until it is this document that you are giving a forum to work with.
Also, and regarding the birth certificate, 1889 -
"...This cert was given to me in 2 pieces and would you believe the seam is right on it. "
You need good, clear documents to use in your research.
What causes you to believe that Mary Helen HARRIS died in Malaya in 1931? -
"...When this women died (Mary Helen HARRIS nee ANDREWS) in *1889 - 1931 in Malaya , no obits appeared in Vic from either of her supposed parents.
..Also her own death cert is a complete mystery and impossible to get from Malaysia"
"...when she was interviewed in Australia as a well known Soprano her age fluctuated greatly.."
Where do you see her being interviewed?. Can you identify a newspaper, and the date, when she was interviewed? What name did she use professionally?
"..i have a ton of articles about her.."
It would be useful to see the articles written about her. Can you identify them please......publications and dates please.
What is the latest evidence you have that Mary Helen HARRIS was alive?
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If I understand it correctly, the couple who married in 1916 are your grandparents. So their children were likely born in Victoria. Have you scrutinised the birth cert for your parent re their mum's details ...including her maiden name, former names, age, place of birth etc.
ADD.... if they were born in NSW their mum's maiden name should be on the registration, and if born 100 or more years ago the NSW birth cert would be available for any member of the general public to purchase, and it would also be available as an official transcription.. :- :)
JM
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1889 Birth cert Mary Helen
Henrietta Larson death cert
Hi there,
I have just noticed that you have named the file that you attached to this post ... Henrietta Larsen DEATH CERT -NO CHILDREN !!! (1) ... so may I reiterate info previously shared on your earlier thread ...
There is a public tree on ancestry with all the information and certificates. It would appear to be yours. However not all forum members have a subscription to Ancestry.
Your grandmother would not be mentioned on either of the death certs of her 'parents' as she wasn't issue of their individual marriages even if she was the biological child of either of them.
Local bdm's registrars in Victoria in that era and later, were often simply members of the community who were asked to take on the role. I see nothing odd in a birth being registered two months after the 'event'.
Having researched and eventually found the true facts of illegitimate births and subsequent 'cover ups' during my many years of interest in genealogy, nothing suprises me anymore. It is also possible that your ancestor was giving information that had been given to her over the years.
Finally the name Henrietta was aka as Mary.
I fully support Cando's comments, and emphasise that the information sought about the deceased's children was confined to the details about the children of the marriage/es, and not about children born outside of marriage. That tradition did not change until more recent times, late 20th century. So civil death registrations in the 1800s and well into the 1900s do not always list all the children born to the deceased person.
Sorry, but I also notice that in that same post you mention the 1889 Birth cert for Mary Helen, but it was not actually part of the attachment on that post, and I have not located it anywhere, to provide you with adequate comment regarding the signature of the informant...
JM