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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: bbart on Sunday 23 August 20 01:27 BST (UK)

Title: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Sunday 23 August 20 01:27 BST (UK)
Karl Magnus was the illegitimate son of Ingaborg Karlsdotter.  The column for the parents names looks to be very standard at writing the father's name above the mother's name, so I am hoping the name written above Ingaborg's might be the reputed father, but I can't make out what the name might be.  Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: Stanwix England on Sunday 23 August 20 22:39 BST (UK)
I'm not sure that it is a name unfortunately.

I think it looks different from the other father's names which appear to be two or three words with middle initials.

I had a look at Swedish birth records terminology and I found this page. (Apologies in advance if you are actually Swedish or have knowledge of Swedish and I'm ham-fistedly explaining something you already know!)

https://swedishgenealogyguide.com/archives/tag/swedish-birth-records

It says there is a word 'föräldrarne' which means 'parents'. I think it looks like the word you were looking at.

So I'm wondering if this was used in this case to suggest that Ingaborg was the only parent listed?

This is all just speculation on my part. I could be totally wrong.


Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 24 August 20 00:34 BST (UK)
It looks to me as if the last bit also says dotter
Dotter means daughter

but I think there are cases of men taking on surnames which included dotter
At the same time as women adopted surnames such as Andersson

Was ingeborg the daughter of a Karl or was Karlsdotter an established surname in her family ?
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Monday 24 August 20 04:54 BST (UK)
Thank you both for your replies.

Stanwix, you could very possibly be right that it isn't a name. The other entries for the fathers start with occupation (usually torp, bond, army rank, etc) then the name, giving the 3 words, but in the one I am interested in, seems to be only 2 words (at least to my old eyes!)  Perhaps it is where she lived.... we might never know!

Brigidmac:  Ingeborg was the daughter of Karl Andersson; the family did follow the rules of patronymic naming.  At first I also thought the last word ended in "dotter", but wishful thinking made me start seeing it as ending (after the double t's) in "sen".

I have just looked over the page the image was taken from, trying once again to find something similar, and I notice the bottom example (fifth line) of this new clipping looks like a very similar first word?

Thanks again for the input!
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Monday 24 August 20 04:57 BST (UK)
Oooooh.   Could it just be her father's occupation... such as "crofter's daughter".
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 24 August 20 05:30 BST (UK)
The first word on the first line of that second snip looks similar, though it seems to be an abbreviation with possibly a full stop.
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 24 August 20 05:38 BST (UK)
On English baptisms often for single mothers instead of occupation base born is written

But I think Sweden gave more importance to women ..do you know Karl s profession ?
the somethings dotter looks possible

Was MAGNUS a surname & clue to fathers identity ?
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 24 August 20 05:49 BST (UK)
You are right the word does end en
But that means the daughter

My rusty Norwegian is that articles fix to end if noun dotter = daughter
 dotteren = the daughter

 (l like the .".? s daughter "suggestion )

Hopefully a Scandinavian speaker will pitch in.
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Monday 24 August 20 06:03 BST (UK)
Ingeborg's father, Karl Andersson, was a crofter.  I believe that is what "torp" or similar variations are on the documents.
Ingeborg married an Anders Andersson the year after he was born. 
Karl Magnus "used" the Andersson name until he entered the army, and like most people of that time, had to change their surname in the army, and he chose "Holmgren".

As Ingeborg's father was a crofter, I am leaning to the mysterious few words being some version of "torp" followed by daughter.
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Monday 24 August 20 06:05 BST (UK)

Was MAGNUS a surname & clue to fathers identity ?

It could possibly be a clue.... it is the only time I have found the name MAGNUS occurring in the family. Years ago I did search the area for a young man named Magnus in the area, but came up blank.  It might be worth my time to look around again, with more records available now.

Thanks for the interest!  I appreciate everyone's input!
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Monday 24 August 20 06:26 BST (UK)
From https://sites.rootsweb.com/~swewgw/Fact/Dict/facdic_jur.htm#torpare
there is this:

torpare - special type of farmer*
torpardotter  - daughter of a torpare

*torpare - A farmer who farmed land owned by someone else and paid his rent in dagsverke = by working a specified number of days for the land owner.
statare -a farm labourer employed by the land owner. 
stattorpare - A statare who also farmed a torp

I think Torpardotter is what is written.  I wish I had found that site sooner;  I wouldn't have had to pester you all! 
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 24 August 20 06:34 BST (UK)
My last answer disappeared while you posted
You are not pestering at all
For me its a chance to to revise

 I think it is toperensdotteren. The daughter of the crofter.

Have you come across the terms for grandparents which make it very clear who is who
Farsfar farsmor morsmor morsfar

I think you will get more interest and help if you ask moderators to transfer topic to Europe forum now you have deciphered that word
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Monday 24 August 20 06:57 BST (UK)

 I think it is toperensdotteren. The daughter of the crofter.

Have you come across the terms for grandparents which make it very clear who is who
Farsfar farsmor morsmor morsfar

The daughter of the crofter would make perfect sense.
I used to have copies of the yearly "inspections" made by the local clergy, who kept tabs on life events in the household, and the children's ability to read etc.  Unfortunately, I lost my computer and the back up drive in a fire, so all I have is my little scrappy notes that weren't in the same room.

These scrappy notes do have Ingeborg's father, Karl Andersson, as a crofter who also rented a bit of farm land.

I am satisfied now that it isn't the name of a reputed father, and will plug away a bit longer before heading to the European board, as I'm sure I will get stuck again.

Thanks for all your help!
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: jamcat95 on Tuesday 25 August 20 08:08 BST (UK)
Hi
Just to say that it does say "torparedotter".

Ian

Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: jamcat95 on Tuesday 25 August 20 08:24 BST (UK)
Was he born in Östersund and had a brother Anders Fredrik Andersson?

Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 25 August 20 08:39 BST (UK)
Thanks for that, Ian!  Wishful thinking had me hoping it was a name.

And yes, that's the fellow.  He, and some of the family ended up in Canada.
If memory serves me correctly, Anders Frederick was born after Karl's mother married.
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 25 August 20 08:41 BST (UK)
Hang on.... Anders Frederick is the stepfather to Karl.  *senior moment*

His stepfather, and his half brother are both Anders Fredericks.   (ugh, double senior moment!)
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: jamcat95 on Tuesday 25 August 20 08:42 BST (UK)
Yes, Anders was born legitimate.
I take it you are looking for Karl's father?

Ian

Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 25 August 20 08:44 BST (UK)
That was my hope, but I never found anything in the annual reports from the clergy (can't remember the correct name for that).
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: jamcat95 on Tuesday 25 August 20 08:45 BST (UK)
Hang on.... Anders Frederick is the stepfather to Karl.  *senior moment*

His stepfather, and his half brother are both Anders Fredericks.   (ugh, double senior moment!)
Yes, Anders Fredrik Andersson born 1852 was Karl's stepfather.

Ian

Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: jamcat95 on Tuesday 25 August 20 08:48 BST (UK)
I'll take a wee look in the Magistrate Books to see if it is mentioned.

Is there anything else you need help with. I have access to a number of resources here in Sweden.


Ian

Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 25 August 20 08:50 BST (UK)
That would be great!  I have quite a bit on the family; other than his father's name.
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: jamcat95 on Tuesday 25 August 20 08:50 BST (UK)
Ok, great.

Ian

Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: jamcat95 on Tuesday 25 August 20 08:56 BST (UK)
Do you have the page number in the Östersund Birth Book for Karl's birth, or was he born in another parish?

Ian

Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 25 August 20 09:00 BST (UK)
The index says:

Birth Date:    28 aug 1876
Birth Place:    Näs, Västernorrland, Sverige
Page Number:    21
Volume:    C:4

Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: jamcat95 on Tuesday 25 August 20 09:05 BST (UK)
Thanks.
The minister had written Östersund, but Näs it was. Here is the original which you probably already have:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01pui/


Ian

Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 25 August 20 09:08 BST (UK)
That is much clearer than the one I have, but it does look the same document.
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: jamcat95 on Tuesday 25 August 20 09:13 BST (UK)
It is the same record.

Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 25 August 20 09:24 BST (UK)
His mother was from Brunflo; that must be where the Ostersund error came from.
Is this the same record that you meant by the Magistrate's record?
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: jamcat95 on Tuesday 25 August 20 09:29 BST (UK)
No it isn't. I will look later on in those books, if there is anything.
I'll be back.

Ian


Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 25 August 20 09:30 BST (UK)
I appreciate it!
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: jamcat95 on Friday 28 August 20 16:03 BST (UK)
Hi

I found no records in the court books unfortunately.
I'll post the records I found digging around. They show all the family leaving for USA. You may have these already.

1899
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/A0012553_00264#?c=&m=&s=&cv=263&xywh=81%2C2038%2C5526%2C3108
Row 16: Anders Fredrik Andersson and family.
Row 29: Karl Magnus Duncker. His soldier's name was Duncker.

1900
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/80009035_00377#?c=&m=&s=&cv=376&xywh=-124%2C1321%2C5569%2C3133
Row 8: Anders Fredrik Andersson
Row 16: Karl Magnus Duncker Holmgren.

1902
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/F0012124_00297#?c=&m=&s=&cv=296&xywh=-18%2C2551%2C4898%2C2755
Row 24: Karl Magnus Holmgren. He changed from Duncker to Holmgren.

To see some of these records you'll have to become a member. It is free to do so.


Ian




Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Friday 28 August 20 21:34 BST (UK)
Wow!  Thank you so much!  I had always thought the Holmgren name was from the army; this is the first I've seen the Duncker name. 

I have registered at the archives and can see all your links; thank you SO MUCH!!
Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: jamcat95 on Saturday 29 August 20 10:25 BST (UK)
You're welcome.
I wonder if Holmgren is his father's name and this is the reason he changed to it.

Ian

Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Saturday 29 August 20 23:54 BST (UK)
That is a very plausible theory. 
I found this at the Archives:  https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/Folk_023048-045   which I believe to be him, just using surname Holmgren, in the 1900 census. When he first came to Canada, he was in the sawmill/logging industry, so the occupation is feasible, if they still had their own occupation while being in the military?

Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: jamcat95 on Sunday 30 August 20 10:25 BST (UK)
Yes it is him, 2 years before he left for USA.



Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: jamcat95 on Sunday 30 August 20 10:46 BST (UK)
From the household book pages I sent earlier it looks as though he left the army 15 Nov 1901 and the minister had written it with a question mark.
His occupation at that time was recorded as an "extra stat. karl" a "statare" in Bräcke Parish:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statare


Ian

Title: Re: Swedish birth - possible father's name?
Post by: bbart on Monday 31 August 20 05:18 BST (UK)
Thanks again!  The link for statare was quite interesting but in a sad way.... life was definitely harder back then for most people.