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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: wallbanger on Wednesday 26 August 20 16:07 BST (UK)
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Hi, need some help and advice, please. After years of hunting for Jane Jones, unsuccessfully, I took a birthdate from the 1839 census and sent for the birth certificate from the GRO. The parents were David Jones, tailor, and Jane, formerly HUGHES, and daughter Jane born Bryntrallwyn, Llandwrog. Instead of the 25th December 1846, the one they sent was for the 26th, but the father’s name was David, as I’d stipulated, but he was a tailor and not a labourer as had been put on Jane’s marriage certificate in Gwytherin, Denbighshire.
Looking at the records for this family, I’ve found the following children:
Margaret b.1841 d.1842
Anne b.1843
Jane b.1846
David b.1849
Checking the parish burial records, I’ve found that Jane Hughes died 1851, not long after the census was taken, making her birth abt 1822, and David marries a Catherine, probably Williams but yet to be confirmed, and has 6 more children.
David and Jane are shown living at Ty Newydd, Bryntirion, in 1841 with daughter, Margaret, and in 1851 with Anne, Jane and David. Son, David is living with father and his second wife and their children in 1861. The property becomes known as Tai Newyddion, Bryntirion. I assume they are one and the same.
I have a couple of problems. Some of the children are baptised and some aren’t. Neither Anne nor Jane are baptised. Why would that be? I’m assuming that if they were non-conformists, then none of them would be in the parish baptisms
Jane and Anne are obviously old enough to go into domestic service by the 1861, and I’ve found a couple of contenders, but can’t be 100% certain. If this birth certificate is the right one, I know Jane is living at Tyddyn Ucha in either Llangernyw or Gwytherin, in Denbighshire, in 1866, but I don’t know in what capacity, as there’s no occupation given for her on her marriage certificate. After her marriage, her husband was a shepherd and a labourer, and they lived on and around the Moors. I know the family’s movements from 1866, and have the marriage and death certs.
How can I discover how Jane ended up moving away from her birth family. So far, I’ve not found any relatives she could have moved to after her father’s remarriage. Why would Llandwrog not be listed as her birthplace on any census? Would she not have known her father was a master tailor? David Jones also had Parish Clerk as well as Tailor on the 1871 census.
I don’t know this area at all, so I’m hunting blind, after getting so familiar with the Denbighshire parishes. Any help or advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks. Diolch yn fawr.
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Have you ruled out two jane Jones
With similar birth dates
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No, I haven’t ruled them out. The only Jane I’m confident about who matches the birth certificate is the Jane in the 1851 census. The Jane Jones who are b. Llandwrog in the 1861 census are contenders but I can’t confirm either way because they are in service and not with the father and his second wife and their children. Same with Anne, although I’ve found a likely Anne who remains single and in service, although again, I can’t be 100%.
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With a name like Jane Jones its not easy
Im sorting out my Denbighshire jones with the help of dna but its not always obvious which lines they are from ..
Id she was a domestic servant she may have moved with her employees.
Several girls I found listed as domestics were actually in relatives families .I only know this from having a very wide tree .lioking for all the siblings in each generation .
Good luck keep us updated if you get any information
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Thanks for taking a look, brigidmac. I hadn’t considered her moving with a family she might have been employed with. I’m only assuming she went into service as an alternative to being with relatives. I’ve sent off for what I hope is the right marriage certificate for David Jones and Jane Hughes so I can perhaps find other relatives she might be with in 1861.
What I find difficult to understand is why Llandwrog or even simply Caernarfonshire was never given as her birthplace on the census returns as an adult. I feel like I’ve wasted 10 years looking in the wrong county. I’m beginning to wonder now if Jane Jones’ husband, John Davies, also came from Caernarfonshire and not Llanfair Talhaiarn, Denbighshire, as was claimed on the census’, as his early records are just as elusive.
It would be just great if I could find a census return for 1861, giving her birthplace as Llandwrog but living somewhere near Gwytherin or Llangernyw, but hey ho, that would be too easy. ;)
Next stop I suppose will be a trip to local cemeteries in the parish to see if I can find any graves. I’m finding it difficult to pinpoint deaths for David Jones and David’s second wife, Catherine, although there is a burial for Jane Hughes (Jones) in the parish burials in 1851.
Researching the Parry side of the family was a doddle compared to the Jones.
Thanks again, brigidmac.
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Can you tell us more about the jane jones you know is yours after 1881
Husbands name profession etc details given on marriage certificate witnesses
Do any of the censuses have any of her potential relatives staying as visitors .? Or living next door
I know you have already searched everywhere but maybe someone will come up with something related to her or to rule the other Jones out
some of my Denbighshire jones wandered across to Lancashire to get married and baptised
moved around Wales to go to diffèrent coal iron or lead mines .
My welsh geography & history not good but could it be to do with borders changing
Was the birthplace of husband consistent on other census ?
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Hello
Could you give us more information about Jane's marriage to John Davies - date, etc. and the census refs that you know are them, please.
Many of my ancestors were from Denbighshire/Merionethshire and bore the usual names - Jones, Roberts, Hughes etc. Over the years, I have managed to fined most of them.
Gadget
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Hello again, brigidmac, and hi, gadget,
Apologies in advance for the long post, but it was as short as I could get it.
Jane Jones married John Davies, in Gwytherin, Denbighshire in 1866, both of ‘full age’ and of the parish. He was a labourer on the marriage certificate and also a farmer/bugail/shepherd on the census’. Her father’s name was given as David Jones, labourer, and his father’s name was given as William Davies, labourer.
John Davies was b. Llanfair Talhaiarn about 1844 according to the census’ from 1871 onwards. That was pretty consistent in all of them. According to most of the census’, Jane was born in Llangernyw. At the time they were married, his address was Pen Llether, and her address was Tyddyn Ucha. John signed with his mark, but Jane signed her name.
He died 1932 Pandy Tudur, Llangernyw.
Death certificate gives age at death as 89 which would confirm birth 1843/44, although there is a M.I. in Gwytherin which has his age as 90. John and Jane’s first son, William is buried in Gwytherin, and the large gravestone has both John and Jane also inscribed on it, but there are no burial records. I do have their death certificates. Jane went to live with her daughter in Penmaenmawr after John’s death, and died there in 1940.
Most of addresses after his marriage are in bleak isolated places e.g. township of Cornwall (with one or two l’s) in Llanfair Talhaiarn, and on the Moors near Llansannan/Pentrefoelas. The 1911 census has him at Cornwall Ganol, which son Thomas takes over when John & Jane move to Pandy Tudur.
Their children were Jane, Catherine, William, Thomas and Margaret.
I have everything from John and Jane’s marriage onwards, but cannot find a confident match for a date of birth or baptism for John Davies or a sure match in the 1851 census. There are a couple of contenders for the 1861 census. I’m still not 100% confident about this birth certificate for Jane.
I did think a family of Davies at Hafod Gau was the likely family for John, but I’m unable to prove it. They have a John listed on the census, but he is the only one in that family not listed in the Parish baptisms in either Gwytherin or Llanfair Talhaiarn. The Hafod Gau Davies family have all died by 1864, except for John and possibly David, as they are not in the burials, unlike the rest of them. Hafod Gau is in the same remote area as John and Jane’s home, Beaver Gro, in 1871, in Llanfair Cornwall (Llanfair Talhaiarn.)
Other than that, I’ve not found any other possible relatives, other than their children and their families.
Every certificate I’ve sent for has not been the right one with William as the father. I’ve been looking at it again since lockdown, and have started now to research every John Davies with William as a father in the Denbighshire parish baptisms.
I must mention the Llandudno local Register Office, they have been very, very helpful, if as unsuccessful as me, for both John and Jane.
Thanks again, brigidmac, and you, too, gadget, if you can add anything.
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Looking at their marriage entry, it looks as if the witnesses were parish officials, certainly the first one was as he signed the previous entry. Thus no help there!
Can you say which parish they are in on the 1871 Census, please. There are 71 93 possible couples showing on my search, given the info you've given.
Gadget
Add - sorry, I forgot to welcome you to the forum. Welcome :)
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OK - found them in 1871 so will work from there:
RG10/5670/75/4 (for others who are looking)
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Im in the process of identify descendants of my Denbighshire jones from 1840
And linking to dna matches my head is also swimming with Jones Davies Roberts Hughes & Williams
( I have Parry too)
Such a help if they have middle names or marry a more unusual surname.
I have benefit of having dna pfior ofthe research of my aunt and mother and oral history .they went to record offices and graveyards
& so far ive only come across ,one census where they had the wrong miss JONES.
Maybe we are all related from a few generations further back.!
I helped an american find his welsh Jones family couldnt connect to my Jones names until we realisrd his ancestor had married another jones ggfathers sister !
Any tips Gadget ...how many years
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Hi, gadget, and thank you :)
1871 census they are in the Llanfair Talhaiarn census, but you might see it as Llanfair Cornwall. They are schedule no. 18 at Bevergro. This property is also known as Beaver Grove elsewhere. It is the only census where Jane has got Ruthin as her birthplace, and yes, I have checked out Ruthin contenders years ago and ruled it out. Their daughter, Jane, was baptised at Pen
Llether in 1866 which is also Llanfair Talhaiarn, not far away, and not Llangernyw as listed on the census.
I noticed the same thing about the witnesses’ too.
Incidentally, this is my partner’s family, and John and Jane were his great grandparents.
Many thanks for taking the time to look at this. I’ve been going round in circles for years with these two. ::)
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Sorry, gadget. Best I can do with what’s to hand:
1881 RG11/5537/86 P. 7 Sch. 35 Nant Heilyn, Pentrefoelas
1891 RG12/4630 Llansannan P 13 Sch. 75
1901 RG13/5240 p12 Llansannan, Pen Aled Scb. 71
1911 Cornwall Ganol, Gwytherin. I haven’t got the ref to hand, sorry.
1939 Jane is living in Penmaenmawr with her daughter’s family at ‘Meuryn’
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I'm in the middle of a big delivery so can't spend long at the moment.
The first two daughters were Jane and Catherine which, given naming conventions, would be the mothers. I see that the David Jones that you've found married both a Jane and a Catherine, so that looks correct. Also William fits too.
Another thing to bear in mind is that quite a lot of the 1861 census was missing so they might not appear.
Will get back when I've finished my chores!!
Gadget
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Thanks, Gadget. There’s no rush; I’ve been at these two for over ten years. I’ve gone much further back with other sections of the family, in particular the Parry side.
I agree about Jane and Catherine. That was the first thing I’d thought of when I got the certificate and checked the Llandwrog census. I’ve been trying to use naming conventions where possible during all my searches, especially as they seem to be consistent, at least down to more recent times. It’s one plus in favour of the Llandwrog birth certificate, if only I could find that missing link to the known areas in Denbighshire.
Thanks for any help you can give me. I know the Denbighshire areas and the known addresses quite well, and we’ve not long moved up here, which is handy, but I’m not familiar with the Llandwrog area at all. Thanks, again. Diolch yn fawr. :)
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It does seem a good way from the Denbighshire parishes. Have you checked that the Llandwrog Jane lived after the 1851?
Did you know that Margaret, Thomas and William Davies are recorded as triplets on their baptism entry - Oct 12 1885 at Gwytherin? John and Jane are recorded as living at Waen Issa. John is a labourer . I checked Margaret's birth to make sure that the 1939 was the correct family :)
I've also checked Tyddyn Ucha in both Gwytherin and Llangernyw in the 1861. There were two houses with that name in Gwytherin: one was a Mill. Neither household had any one who could be relatives.
Have you checked if David Jones, the tailor left a will?
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Is this Jane Davies's death registration:
Q3, 1940, Conway, v. 11b, p 1464
If so, her age is recorded as 93 which would make her born circa 1847-8. This date fits with the ages given on the 1871-1911 censuses. I'm wondering if the date on the 1939 is wrong.
I did find an interesting baptism not far from Gwytherin. This Jane was illegitimate and her father was recorded as David, a labourer. I'll see if I can locate it again.
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This sounds likes a good case for DNA to find hidden connections
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Ignore my last thoughts - I see that as it was Q 3 and she was 93, and she was born in December 1846, she would still be 93.
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Yes, thanks, Gadget, I did know about the entry of triplets that has been written in the 1885 baptism records for those three siblings. I’ve been to the Old Gaol, Ruthin, many times going through records, as well as looking online. Obviously, they weren’t triplets, but where they lived was so remote, apparently it was common for some people to do ‘job lots’ when baptising their children, or so I was told by a local historian.
I also know about the two properties called Tyddyn Ucha. I may have mentioned in my first post that it would be either Llangernyw or Gwytherin, although someone whose family has been connected to the Gwytherin one, doubts that it was that one, as she knows her family history as well as the house history. Her nephew runs it now. The one at Llangernyw would be the most likely, as it’s also very close to both Pandy Tudur, Llanfair Talhaiarn and Gwytherin.
I’ve been looking at census entries for Jane and her siblings in and around Llandwrog this past week, but as she may well be in service, I can’t be sure, although there are a couple of contenders. Once I have David Jones marriage certificate to Jane Hughes, I can confirm the parents and perhaps find some connection then.
I can’t find either David or wife Catherine Jones after 1871 census, or a death or burial record that I can be sure of.
I’ve not found any wills to date.
Thanks very much, Gadget, for all the time you’ve spent looking at this. I do appreciate it.
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This was the other baptism that I found:
Capel Garmon in the parish of Llanrwst (28 Feb 1848 (born same day)
Jane, illegitemate daughter of Jane Jones, maid servant, and David Roberts, labourer. Abode: Nebo
From Genuki :
The parish of Capel Garmon was originally a Chapel of Ease to Llanrwst
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/CapelGarmon
Map location:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01pus/
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This sounds likes a good case for DNA to find hidden connections
I’ve got as much chance of Gareth doing the DNA test as I have of getting him to the doctors, brigidmac :D
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DNA is only useful if you have a good match(es) with a well researched tree(s). I found my grandfather's father via DNA but I had to do a lot of 'traditional' research to get there. I re-did the trees of the close matches before I was sure.
:)
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This was the other baptism that I found:
Capel Garmon in the parish of Llanrwst (28 Feb 1848 (born same day)
Jane, illegitemate daughter of Jane Jones, maid servant, and David Roberts, labourer. Abode: Nebo
From Genuki :
The parish of Capel Garmon was originally a Chapel of Ease to Llanrwst
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/CapelGarmon
Map location:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01pus/
I have seen that baptism, too. It is in my list of possibilities, although I wasn’t able to connect it. Both Nebo and Capel Garmon are not far from where I live, so I know the area. I live just outside of Llanrwst.
I’ve also sent a search for the same birthdate but different year to the GRO just in case. This last birth certificate took two months so it will be a while yet. It’s just so I can eliminate the possibility of the year being wrong. That should arrive with the marriage certificate. I will also send for Jane Hughes death certificate from 1851, and possibly David’s marriage to Catherine, which was possibly later on in 1851 or 1852.
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I'll eave you to it then. You seem to have covered the available records.
I think I'm wasting my time.
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Thank you, Gadget. I do appreciate you looking at it, I’m sorry if you feel like you’re wasting your time. A fresh pair of eyes where mine have glazed over. I’ve had a long time to look at records from the Denbighshire possibilities, so I’m going to know what you’ve discovered this afternoon and evening, but Llandwrog is where I come unstuck. I don’t know the area, and can’t seem to find parish records apart from a few, and there doesn’t seem to be any chapel records that I’ve found. Again, I need to figure why she would travel all the way over here. If I can’t find a link, then simply guessing isn’t good enough. You never know, maybe her mother will turn out to have been born over here, or she had other family members. My queries were really what I’d put in my first post, such to why she would come over here, rather than say Caernarfon or Bangor, and why she would put Llangernyw as her birthplace, if this birth certificate is the right one, and I have to assume that it is without an alternative.
The local Register Offices have been very good and helped eliminate the civil birth records I’d come up with as possibilities over the last few years. I’ve started to lose track…
I’m sorry if you feel I’ve wasted your time, Gadget, but thank you, anyway.
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Your first few postings were very rambling which was why I asked various questions.
but Llandwrog is where I come unstuck. I don’t know the area, and can’t seem to find parish records apart from a few,
I've just checked on FindMyPast and it shows 11629 parish records for Llandwrog.
Genuki has this:
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llandwrog
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The parish of Llandwrog is very big, and is split into Lower Llandwrog and Upper Llandwrog. I have studied a few maps both old and new, and we took a quick trip out that way yesterday to get an idea of the particular locality that is mentioned on the birth certificate, Bryntrallwyn, which is between Carmel and Cilgwyn.
When I say there isn’t any parish records I meant for the particular family I’m looking for. I’m sorry, I thought that would be obvious. Perhaps I just haven’t found them all yet. Apologies for rambling. Yes, I have found some records, but not all family members are there.
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Is this any good. It's very faint:
Marriage - Dec 8th 1838 Llandwrog
David Jones, full age, bach., tailor, father - Francis Lloyd, shoemaker
Jane Williams, full age, spin, father - William Jones, labourer
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David's residence looks like Llanrug. Jane's Llandwrog.
Add- Witnesses - Robert Lloyd and Hugh Williams.
Jane made her mark. Others signed.
Could there be two David and Jane marrying at roughly the same time?
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Hi,
I have a Gwynedd family History Booklet for the memorial inscriptions form St Thomas Church, Llandwrog and it makes several mentions of Bryntrallwyn and Bryntirrion. The first burial was in 1855
I am uncertain exactly what you are looking for but if you let me know precisely what you are looking at I will check the booklet.
As examples there are 2 entries -
A David Lloyd (died 1884 age 72) and Catherine Lloyd (died 1900 age 77) of Bryn Tirion, Mynydd, Cilgwyn,
And a John Williams (died 1887 age 44) and Jane Williams (died 1925 age 85) of Bryntirion, Carmel.
Alan
Alan
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I've just checked the online burials, Alan, but nothing more in there than what you found in your booklet.
However~
David Lloyd (master tailor, b Llanbedr) ) and Catherine are at 2, Bryn Tirion, Llandwrog on the1881
RG11/5564/28/12
So it looks as if David Jones may have reverted to his father's surname later in life.
Gadget
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If the info on the 1871 census for David Jones with that of the 1881 for David Lloyd, they are more or less the same.
RG10/5714/7/6 and RG11/5564/28/12
So why did he change his name to his father's - ?? was there a Will
Also - is this David Jones aka Lloyd Jane's father? It certainly looks like the same one to me.
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Hi,
When I saw the entries in the booklet for David/Catherine Lloyd it did make me wonder if they had reverted to the family surname later in life.
Grave D019 David died 25 May 1884 and Catherine 6 Feb 1900.
Alan
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I can't find a death for a Francis Lloyd so far. The 1838 marriage cert didn't say deceased.
It's also worth looking for a birth for Jane Williams. With her father named as William Jones, it looks as if they might have still be using the semi-patronymic. It was a bit late but that part of Wales moved to surnames later and also, as I've found with my Merionethshire ancestors, it depended on the vicar/parish clerk as to which form they used.
Gadget
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Hi,
There is an entry for Bryntrallwyn, Uchaf, Llandwrog which could be of interest -
Grave A053 - William W Hughes (died 2 May 1882 age 78) and Jane Hughes died 18 March 1877 age 70). Maybe Jane's parents?
In the next grave A054 of the same address, a Margaret Owen died 2 July 18771 age 86.
Alan
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So they might well have both been using the patronymic - Jane Williams (father William ??Jones) then becomes Jane Hughes ( father William ??Hughes).
I recall pouring over the records of the Penllyn parishes working out the machinations of the patronymics of one of my lines.
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David's residence looks like Llanrug. Jane's Llandwrog.
Add- Witnesses - Robert Lloyd and Hugh Williams.
Jane made her mark. Others signed.
Could there be two David and Jane marrying at roughly the same time?
Funnily enough, I was going to bring up the subject of marriages this morning after coming across a David Lloyd at When I first received the birth certificate, I immediately started looking at the parish marriages and that particular marriage was the only one that came up. I did more searches on both FreeBMD and North Wales BMD. The results for David Jones all had alternative name options e.g. David Lloyd and there was a Jane Hughes and Jane Williams options, so I think you may be right in that there may have been two at the same time. My other thought was that perhaps David Jones might have been David Lloyd Jones, because the explanations given for alternative name options was that all the name combinations come up as options, if that makes sense.
David and Catherine’s son, William was baptised William Lloyd, so the name Lloyd must figure somewhere along the line.
The marriage certificate I’ve sent for is for Jane Hughes and David Jones, so it’ll be interesting to see what the actual names turn out to be.
Before I came on here, I was looking at the burials using Lloyd instead of Jones and found both David and Catherine.
I’ve not had any experience in the use of patronymics and only know the absolute basics, so your help would be invaluable. In your experience, do you think David Jones would be using patronymic conventions or perhaps just dropping the Jones surname?
Thank you, Gadget, for both your patience and help.
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I’ve not had any experience in the use of patronymics and only know the absolute basics, so your help would be invaluable. In your experience, do you think David Jones would be using patronymic conventions or perhaps just dropping the Jones surname?
It could have been that he went by both at various times. Have you looked for Jane and Anne's baptisms under Lloyd?
Re his place of birth being recorded as Llanbedr* on the 1881, I recall seeing some document with either he or Francis Lloyd being born in the Harlech area, which could fit, but I can't find it at the moment.
*add - I see on the 1871, he is born Ffestiniog!
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Hi,
I have a Gwynedd family History Booklet for the memorial inscriptions form St Thomas Church, Llandwrog and it makes several mentions of Bryntrallwyn and Bryntirrion. The first burial was in 1855
I am uncertain exactly what you are looking for but if you let me know precisely what you are looking at I will check the booklet.
As examples there are 2 entries -
A David Lloyd (died 1884 age 72) and Catherine Lloyd (died 1900 age 77) of Bryn Tirion, Mynydd, Cilgwyn,
And a John Williams (died 1887 age 44) and Jane Williams (died 1925 age 85) of Bryntirion, Carmel.
Alan
Alan
Thank you so much, Al,
There must be some connection between the two families but I’m not quite up to speed yet today. I’ve been at the dentists all morning.
I was doing a property search through the 1881 & 1891 census’ before I went out, and came across the David Lloyd entry for Bryn Tirion. As he is a master tailor, I’m inclined to think it has to be David Jones, and the two sons tie in, too.
I had a look in the parish burials but used Lloyd instead of Jones and found David d. 1884 and Catherine d. 1900. Both were at Bryn Tirion.
I won’t repeat what I’ve posted to Gadget about the marriages, as I’m assuming you will see it. It’s all out of my level of experience but I’m hoping it will become clearer.
I’d love to know the relevant inscriptions that you’ve come across for Bryntrallwyn and Bryntirion if you’ve got time, and if you come across one for first wife Jane from 1851 Tai Newyddion, I’d appreciate that one. She is my partner’s great grandmother.
Thank you. Diolch yn fawr.
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I’ve not had any experience in the use of patronymics and only know the absolute basics, so your help would be invaluable. In your experience, do you think David Jones would be using patronymic conventions or perhaps just dropping the Jones surname?
It could have been that he went by both at various times. Have you looked for Jane and Anne's baptisms under Lloyd?
Re his place of birth being recorded as Llanbedr on the 1881, I recall seeing some document with either he or Francis Lloyd being born in the Harlech area, which could fit, but I can't find it at the moment.
Thanks, Gadget. I’ll check out the baptisms for them again in a little while. I’m not feeling very well at the moment.
The 1871 census had David’s birthplace as Harlech, so it might have been that one you were thinking of.
Thanks again.
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Re patronymics - I found this was helpful when I started delving into them
http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/helachau/patronymics.htm4
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Hi,
Here is an outline of what I can currently see -
Bryn Tirion - D019 - David and Catherine Lloyd
D017 - John and Jane Williams
Details already shown in previous post
Bryn Trallwyn - E003 -Evan E Jones died 1896 age 7 months
Bryn Tallwyn Uchaf - A053 William W Hughes died 1882 age 78; Jane Hughes died 1877 age 70
A044 William David Hughes died 1897 age 55
There is also Bryn Trallwm Uchaf - is this same place?
A054 Margaret Owen died 1871 age 86
B054 Margaret Owen died 1872 age 18 (Daughter of William and Margaret Owens) also
Jane Owens died 1884 age 27 and Ellen Owen died 1896 age 48
There are Welsh verses for each of these children but until you tell me they are yours i will pass on writing them all down.
The church opened in 1855 so there is nothing for David's first wife Jane who died in 1851.
Should you require more details just let me know.
Alan
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Thank you very much, Alan, for that information.
I understand about not copying the verses. They are very personal to the families concerned, and it wouldn’t feel right reading them without a connection.
The only child burial I have so far is that for Margaret Jones, baptised 1841 and died 1842. She was David and Jane’s first child as shown in the 1841 census.
The names of Hughes and Williams are a bit of an enigma. I shall look forward to finding out more about the possible connection. I’m probably going to have to wait another few weeks before I receive the marriage certificate, but that might shed more light on it, and I can then perhaps find Jane Hughes birth or baptism record. Thank you so much for the William and Jane Hughes info. They look like the definite contenders, although I did wonder if her mother might be a Margaret because of the daughter’s name.
I don’t know about the Bryntrallwyn properties themselves. Looking at the old tithe maps and apportionments, Bryntrallwyn looks a single property, which may currently be Farm Bryntrallwyn. I wasn’t sure to begin with whether or not it was simply used as a kind of location marker for that particular area for the census. Jane Jones birth certificate simply states Bryntrallwyn as her place of birth. Later maps have more Bryntrallwyn properties, such as Bryntrallwyn Uchaf and Trallwyn Terrace.
Thanks again, Alan. I very much appreciate your help.
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Re patronymics - I found this was helpful when I started delving into them
http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/helachau/patronymics.htm4
Thank you for the link, Gadget. Sadly, I can’t see the actual file, possibly because I’m not a member of the society. It just give three links to search other genealogy websites such as Ancestry.
This is the latest info I’ve looked at, including Alan’s:
1881 Bryn Tirion David Lloyd, Catherine Lloyd, William Lloyd Robert Lloyd & grandchildren Robert Williams, 4, & Ellen Williams, 3. (Robert is possibly the son of Mary née Lloyd and David Williams.)
David Lloyd died 1884 Bryn Tirion
Catherine Lloyd died 1900 Bryn Tirion
1991 Tai Newyddion Catherine Lloyd, William Lloyd and Robert Lloyd
1901 Tai Newyddion William D. Lloyd & brother Robert D. Lloyd. Niece Ellen Parry, house servant.
It appears that William and Robert have now added David to their names.
William David Lloyd married Catherine Roberts 1st Nov 1905 Transcription gives place as Llandegwning. Residence at time of marriage: Bryntirion, Cilgwyn. Father David Lloyd, tailor.
Marriage solemnised at St Thomas’ Church, Llandwrog.
Mary Lloyd married David Williams 19 Jan 1876 Transcription gives place as Llandegwning. Residence at time of marriage: Bryntirion. Her father listed as David Lloyd, tailor.
Marriage solemnised at St Thomas’ Church, Llandwrog.
Looking up Llandegwning, it comes up as a parish in Pwllheli.
I still couldn’t find any baptisms for Anne or Jane under either Lloyd or Jones.
Re. Francis. On the marriage certificate for Jane Williams and David Jones, Although it has been transcribed as Francis, I thought on close inspection that it could actually be William Hughes. What do you think?
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Re patronymics - I found this was helpful when I started delving into them
http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/helachau/patronymics.htm4
Thank you for the link, Gadget. Sadly, I can’t see the actual file, possibly because I’m not a member of the society. It just give three links to search other genealogy websites such as Ancestry.
It must be a problem at your end as it's an open site that doesn't need membership to access. I don't have to login or anything to access the link.
Click on this link
http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/miscellanea.htm
and then on Patronymic Paranoia, top right. It will take you to the link that I gave.
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Ah, yes, thanks, Gadget, I’ve got it now. :)
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Hi,
As you have mentioned Tai Newyddion I thought to let you know there are 3 entries in the booklet from 1930's - all relating to Evans families. If you find a connection let me know and i will post details.
This also applies to Trallwyn Terrace which has 4 entries - surnames Williams; Jones (x2) and Ellis.
Alan
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Thank you, Alan, I will.
Diolch yn fawr :)
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Hi,
I live in Carmel and am willing to help, if I can.
I'm currently researching the history of the village and am slowly working my way through the Census records.
What I have noticed is that when Llandwrog is given as a place of birth, it refers to the district/area rather than just the village of Llandwrog. So anyone born in Carmel, Cilgwyn or nearby would more than likely be just listed as Llandwrog. On top of that, there is a smaller community called Upper Llandwrog, but that is part of Llandwrog district/area.
As far as I'm aware, the Church of St Thomas mentioned by another poster was Church in Wales. The church has been demolished and the graveyard is pretty overgrown.
There are 2 cemeteries in Carmel, both non-conformist. One is Capel Pisgah and the other is Capel Carmel. There is also an older cemetery but I'm not sure which church/chapel that belonged to. Do you know which religion your relatives belonged to?
I'm happy to have a look at the cemeteries in Carmel for you if that would help but it would be good to know what religion they were as both cemeteries are quite big.
If so, would you mind listing the names and years of birth/death that you are looking for as I've got a bit confused reading through all the posts.
As far as I know Bryntrallwyn and Bryntirion are both in Cilgwyn which is very close by but I have seen them both referred to as being part of Carmel in some records. There are many graves for residents from Cilgwyn, Y Fron and Upper Llandwrog at the cemeteries in Carmel so it looks as though they covered the whole area.
:)
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Hi,
I live in Carmel and am willing to help, if I can.
I'm currently researching the history of the village and am slowly working my way through the Census records.
What I have noticed is that when Llandwrog is given as a place of birth, it refers to the district/area rather than just the village of Llandwrog. So anyone born in Carmel, Cilgwyn or nearby would more than likely be just listed as Llandwrog. On top of that, there is a smaller community called Upper Llandwrog, but that is part of Llandwrog district/area.
As far as I'm aware, the Church of St Thomas mentioned by another poster was Church in Wales. The church has been demolished and the graveyard is pretty overgrown.
There are 2 cemeteries in Carmel, both non-conformist. One is Capel Pisgah and the other is Capel Carmel. There is also an older cemetery but I'm not sure which church/chapel that belonged to. Do you know which religion your relatives belonged to?
I'm happy to have a look at the cemeteries in Carmel for you if that would help but it would be good to know what religion they were as both cemeteries are quite big.
If so, would you mind listing the names and years of birth/death that you are looking for as I've got a bit confused reading through all the posts.
As far as I know Bryntrallwyn and Bryntirion are both in Cilgwyn which is very close by but I have seen them both referred to as being part of Carmel in some records. There are many graves for residents from Cilgwyn, Y Fron and Upper Llandwrog at the cemeteries in Carmel so it looks as though they covered the whole area.
:)
Hi Woostie,
Thanks for your post. I didn’t get the usual notification so I’ve only just seen it.
The birth certificate I received from the GRO was for Jane Jones, born 26th December, 1846, Bryntrallwyn, Llandwrog. Parents David Jones, tailor, and Jane Jones, formerly Hughes. This birth certificate is for the birth my partner, Gareth’s great grandmother.
In a nutshell, I’m trying to find the marriage of David Jones and Jane Hughes, which isn’t proving very successful; I’ve sent for a couple that have been wrong. I want to be sure of the father’s names so I can then hunt for the birth certificates.
They had 4 children:
Margaret b. 1841 d. 1842. Address 1841 was Ty Newydd, Bryntirion
Anne b. 1844.
Jane b. 1846 d. 1940 in Penmaenmawr, living with daughter.
David b. 1849
Address in the ‘51, ‘61 & ‘71 census, Ty Newyddion, Bryntirion. St Thomas parish. In the 1881 census, it is just Bryn Tirion.
The mother, Jane Jones, died on the 20th April 1951, aged 29, and was buried at St Thomas on the 24th April. I’m assuming that she is possibly buried with her daughter, Margaret who died in 1842. If you come across the grave, I’d be thrilled. I got the death certificate yesterday. (#Big Al, do you have these two in your M.I.s?)
Jane’s youngest son, David, is the only one shown with the new family in the 1861 census.
David Jones remarries a Catherine, and has 6 more children:
Mary Jones b. 1853 d. 1895. (marries David Williams)
Catherine Jones b. 1855 d. 1866
Owen Jones b. 1858.
William Lloyd Jones b. 1863 d. 1932 (marries a Catherine Roberts.)
Robert Jones b. 1865
Jane A. Jones b. 1869
I’ve also noticed researching the area that at various times that this area, as you say, is addressed either to Cilgwyn or Carmel.
My primary focus is David Jones & Jane Hughes, and their four children. Things seem to get a bit confusing after David remarries. He stays in the same property, but from the 1881 census, he drops the Jones, and becomes David Lloyd. I’m assuming that this is connected to his own father. His then wife. Catherine, and their children also use Lloyd, and not Jones, although William had already been given the name as a middle name.
I’ve been unable to find baptisms for all the children. Margaret was baptised, but Anne and Jane don’t appear to have been, unless I just haven’t looked in the right place. I wondered if perhaps David Jones was non-conformist but Jane Hughes wasn’t, but I really don’t know which religion they followed.
A David Lloyd died 1884, Bryn Tirion. St Thomas, Llandwrog. A Catherine Lloyd died 1900, Bryn Tirion, again, St Thomas, but David’s wife, Catherine Lloyd is on the 1891 census as a widow, with sons, William & Robert.
There was an issue on FindMyPast with the Llandwrog Parish Records index, which I notified both them and the Gwynedd Archives about, and they confirmed. Some marriage and burial records for St Thomas has been wrongly indexed to Llandegwning.
If you can find anything, I’d be very grateful. I’m disappointed that St Thomas is now a ruin. I was looking forward to going there. I love old chapels, churches & churchyards. Are there any graves still standing?
Apologies if this is no less confusing than previous info I’ve posted. It’s the way I tell ‘em… ;)
I’d love to meet up with you when we can get over, if you’re up for it. I don’t suppose you’d fancy showing Gareth and me around? I won’t be offended if you don’t fancy it, I’ll understand. We’re about an hour away, near Llanrwst.
Thanks again.
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Hi Wallbanger,
Thanks for your reply. I (think) I've got my head round it now.
There are lots of graves at the churchyard of St. Thomas. The foundations of the church still exist and it's a lovely place to visit, if you get my drift, very peaceful. I've only been once and I didn't manage to see many of the graves as it was a hot summer's day (lol) and I was wearing shorts and it's a bit overgrown with brambles and nettles so I didn't venture too far. But it's definitely worth a proper look.
I'm puzzled as to why David Snr would change his surname, but this genealogy game does tend to throw up more questions than answers sometimes.
I've only lived in Carmel for just over a year so I'm still getting used to the layout of the old farms etc. I've seen it plenty of times when a farm has just a name, e.g. Bryntirion, then in the next census it's called Bryntirion Bach, then in the census after that it's called Bryntirion Something Else (just an example I mean). It's so difficult to establish the true facts sometimes but isn't that just the joy of it?
I'd be more than happy to meet up with you both if you're ever in the area. I don't know the area too well, as I've mentioned, but I'm working on it.
In the meantime I will check my own records. I'm concentrating on Carmel itself, or what I deem to be Carmel today. I do have some notes for Cilgwyn but I put them aside when I realised that I had plenty enough to work on just in one village.
Happy Hunting :)
Woostie
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Hi Wootsie,
Thanks, too, for your reply. It’s not easy moving to a new area, is it? We’ve only been here a couple of years, but we were here off and on since 2005. I still haven’t finished unpacking everything we had in storage. We haven’t got much storage space so I’ve seriously got to offload a load of stuff, but I’ve been distracted with all this over lockdown while I’ve been shielding.
St Thomas’ sounds like an old church that’s near me, St Mary’s. There’s just the foundations left marking the outline, and it’s been left to nature but it’s not too overgrown, weeds and wild flowers. Beautiful, so quiet and peaceful.
I got Jane née Hughes death certificate yesterday, but the marriage certificate I’d requested came back negative. That’s two failed attempts. I’ve sent off for a third, so fingers crossed, although they are taking a long time to come through because of Covid. I think the issue must be with the names not matching parents names. I’ve only requested certificates with both names on the same index page, and also asked for 3 year searches, but no luck so far.
I did however get a result with John Davies birth certificate (Jane Jones, the daughter, husband in Llanfair Talhaiarn. The GRO couldn’t find it doing a 3 year search, but I knew it had to be there. I sent for 10 pdf copies of every certificate that gave the surname of who I thought was his mother, and, bingo. A bit extravagant but I was desperate and fed up after trying to find it for so long. At the moment, while I’m waiting for the elusive marriage certificate, I’m trying to look at Hughes families in Gwytherin to see if I can find a link that would bring Jane Jones over here in the 1860’s. I’ve found out some interesting snippets, but no evidence yet.
It would be lovely to meet you and say hello when we next come over. We’d like to come back over before the weather turns too cold and wet. I’d like to check out the two chapels you mentioned, as well as St Thomas church. You could do some grave hunting with me if you fancy it. We could explore together. Gareth can take the dog for a walk. He doesn’t get as excited as me about graveyards. ;)
I’ll send you a message before we next drive over to see if you’re free. No worries if not.
Thanks again for sifting through all my waffle.
Wallbanger :)
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Hi Wallbanger,
I'd be happy to hunt around the graveyards with you. Let me know when you plan to come over and hopefully we can meet up and see if we can find anything.
Take care ;D
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Hi, Wootsie,
That would be great, thank you! You can tell me all about life in Carmel & Cilgwyn, too.
I’ll let you know when my chauffeur is free! ;)
Hope to see you soon!
8)
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@Tall Al, would you mind telling me where I could get the booklets from for graves in and around Carmel, Gwynedd please? I'm trying to locate the grave of a Richard Thomas born around 1840 at either Amlwch or Llanerchymedd on Anglesey but is living at Carmel for most of his life.
I'm struggling to pinpoint which Richard Thomas he may be from the several that show up so I'm hoping that a grave inscription might give his date of birth, or narrow it down a bit. I've physically looked at both non-conformist cemeteries in the village but had no luck so I'm now thinking obtaining documents might be easier as I'm also trying to clarify details of his 3 wives!!
Diolch yn fawr :)
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Hi,
Just to clarify a couple of things -
a) St Thomas Church was not completed until August 1853 so there are no entries before that date.
b) There is no Richard Thomas buried at St Thomas according to my booklet.
c) Gwynedd Family History Society has lots of booklets for Anglesey and other parts of North Wales - you can become a member or just purchase the publications/booklets from their web site - www..gwyneddfhs.co.uk
Hope this helps in your searches
Alan
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Hi,
Using a combination of Free BMD and North Wales BMD, I think it is possibly your Richard Thomas who died in Dec quarter 1918 age 77 at Llandwrog.
You could order a death certificate to see if it is him from either the GRO or North Wales BMD
Alan
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Hi,
Using a combination of Free BMD and North Wales BMD, I think it is possibly your Richard Thomas who died in Dec quarter 1918 age 77 at Llandwrog.
You could order a death certificate to see if it is him from either the GRO or North Wales BMD
Alan
Hi Woostie,
If you do order a death certificate, I’d recommend the GRO pdf upload option as they’re accessible to upload in about 2 days, whereas the certificates are taking at least a couple of months, or at least the ones I’ve been requesting have been.
Thanks again #Tall Al for your information on St Thomas’ dates.
Wallbanger :)
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@Tall Al, thank you for checking. I've now ordered a couple of booklets myself, so thanks for the link, hopefully they will come in useful :)
@Wallbanger, thanks for that advice, it's very handy to know these things :)
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Thanks to everyone for your help. It was very much appreciated.
It would appear now after more hunting over the last year that the birth certificate I was sent was not the right one after all.