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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: GenesA on Thursday 27 August 20 09:26 BST (UK)
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One of my brick walls, Mary Dennis, was born about 1820. She married John Ryley at Manchester Cathedral on 28 August 1841. The marriage certificate gave her father’s name as John Dennis and his occupation was a bleacher.
In the 1851 and 1861 censuses, Mary’s place of birth is given as “Derby” and I’m assuming this means the city of Derby or the county. In 1871 and 81, her place of birth is given as Manchester or Patricroft.
I haven’t found her in 1841 yet but I have five DNA matches who are all descended from the same Dennis family in or around Hartshorne in Derbyshire.
There are possible two baptisms from this area, Mary Ann Dennis in 1817 at Hartshorne and Mary Ann Dennis in 1821 at Measham, daughters of John. However, I think I can rule both of these Mary’s out with a burial and a marriage record.
I’m not sure what steps I should take next. Should I take it that Mary was born in Derbyshire?
Edit: The baptisms I found were:
Mary Ann Dennis, 13 July 1817 at Hartshorne, d. of John Dennis, a weaver, and Mary. I believe this Mary married Benjamin Bradley at Burton upon Trent in 1843
Mary Ann Dennis, 1 April 1821 at Church Gresley, d. of John Dennis, a labourer, and Anne. I believe this Mary was buried 6 February 1838 at Church Gresley.
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Hi, are you aware of any siblings for Mary?
John
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Hi John, unfortunately I don't know of any siblings yet.
The 1841 census was taken in the June of that year and Mary married John Ryley in the August so there's a good chance she was living in Manchester at the time the 1841 census was taken. The marriage certificate gave her address as 30 Irwell Street, the same as John. John was living at Irwell Street for the 1841 census but Mary wasn't as far as I can see.
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1841 census was taken on 6th June, no long before the marriage.
John Ryley spelt Riley on 1841 census is in Irwell St. as on the marriage record,
Manchester Deansgate (District 5). He is age 30 a Joiner.
No trace of Mary yet. I do not think she is in Manchester?
Colin
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Neither do I, Colin.
I am considering this...
St Mary Gate, All Saints, Derby, Derbyshire
David Welch, M, 30, Attorney
Ann Welch, F, 30
William Welch, M, 5
David Welch, M, 3
Ann Welch, F, 1
George Welch, M, 6 months
Mary Dennis, F, 15, F.S (female servant?)
Her death certificate from 1883 gave her age as 60, making her year of birth as 1823. If she was about 18 years old in 1841, would her age have been rounded down to 15 for the 1841 census?
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Alternatively...
Queen Street, Manchester, Salford, Lancashire
William Cotton, M, 25, Butcher
Rebecca Cotton, F, 25
Mary Dennis, F, 15
(All were born outside the county)
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The marriage record states that Mary was of full age, so 21 plus in 1841, unless she told a little lie.
Colin
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Her ages according to the censuses are pretty consistent actually so you're probably right Colin:
1851 -32 years
1861 - 41 years
1871 - 50 years
1881 - 61 years
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What are your reasons for thinking that Mary Ann Dennis (b.1821) was married to Benjamin Bradley?
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14 May 1844 - Burton upon Trent, St Modwen
Benjamin Bradley, 27, Widower, Father was George Bradley a labourer
Mary Ann Dennis, 25, Spinster, Father was John Dennis a labourer
Witnesses; James Dennis and Ann Sherratt
I followed them up in the 1861 census:
Cinder Hill, Hartshorne, Derbyshire
Benjamin Bradley, Head, Married, 45, Farm Labourer, b. Hartshorne
Mary Bradley, Wife, Married, 43, b. Hartshorne
....
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Hmmm... I think we can definitely rule the Derbyshire baptisms out then. You said her place of birth is given as Manchester in other censuses. Have you considered looking for a baptism in Manchester? Are there any other Dennis' that were married in Manchester whose father was John, a bleacher?
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Are there any other Dennis' that were married in Manchester whose father was John, a bleacher?
I’ve only searched for marriages that took place at Manchester cathedral 10 years +/- outside of 1841 but nothing has turned up ??? There are lots of men called John Dennis whose children were marrying but most were labourers or farmers, not working in cloth manufacturing which I’m assuming Mary’s father was if I’m understanding “bleacher” correctly.
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That reinforces the idea that Mary was from outside of Manchester, unless there is another "Derby" in Lancashire? West Derby is the only one that springs to mind.
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Mary Ann DENNIS Burial Age 101 6 Feb 1838 Derbyshire Church Gresley :
St Mary and St George : Parish Register
Mary DENNIS Burial Age 32 14 Dec 1837 Derbyshire Church Gresley :
St Mary and St George :
I think this Mary might be worth another look.
Mary Anne DENNIS Baptism 01 Apr 1821 Derbyshire Church Gresley : St Mary and St George :
Colin
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John DENNIS Ann RUSHTON Marriage 19 Apr 1803 Derbyshire Church Gresley : St Mary and St George : Parish Register
Church Gresley : St Mary and St George : Parish Register abode Linton on all. (Freereg)
Children of John & Ann/e
Father a labourer
Elisabeth DENNIS Baptism 02 Dec 1804
Joseph DENNIS Baptism 01 Apr 1810
Thomas DENNIS Baptism 01 Apr 1810
Joseph DENNIS Baptism 01 Apr 1810
Sarah DENNIS Baptism 26 Sep 1813
Father a Collier
John DENNIS Baptism 14 Jan 1816
Samuel DENNIS Baptism 02 May 1819
Father a Labourer
Mary Anne DENNIS Baptism 01 Apr 1821
William DENNIS Baptism 22 Aug 1824
So did John change his occupation in later years?
Colin
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When William Dennis married 15 Jun 1845 father noted as a collier but when Thomas married 26 Nov 1845 & Samuel 10 Aug 1847 he was a Labourer.
I cannot find anything for Elizabeth the eldest child but there is a burial for that name father John abode Linton but the date is 16 May 1803.
If Elizabeth died that would leave Mary as the only girl in the family, maybe she left the male dominated home for pastures new and lost touch with the family?
So the problem is the occupation a Bleacher is a Bleacher of Paper or Cloth, sadly I do not see much of either in the area http://www.swad.com/story/
Colin
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I am very open to reconsidering the 1821 Mary Dennis of Linton. I have four DNA matches who are all descended from a Henry Dennis (b.1718 in Measham) so I am toying with the idea that Mary was descended from this Derbyshire family.
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Have you seen this burial?
CHURCH GRESLEY in the County of DERBY, 1837
Mary Dennis, Cas. Gresley, Feb. 6th, 16 years (born c.1821) (could be 18 years)
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Have you seen this burial?
CHURCH GRESLEY in the County of DERBY, 1837
Mary Dennis, Cas. Gresley, Feb. 6th, 16 years (born c.1821) (could be 18 years in which case it probably isn't the Mary born in 1821)
Looking at the other entries, it looks like an "18", making her year of birth as 1819. So the 1821 Mary still seems plausible to me.
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If it does say "18 years", it would make her year of birth about 1820 ???
Can you possibly find a connection between John Dennis who married Ann Rushton to the DNA connection Henry Dennis who was born in 1718 in Measham?
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Could this John Dennis and Ann Rushton in 1841?
Castle Gresley, Church Gresley, Burton upon Trent, Derbyshire
John Denniss, Male, 57 (b.1784), Ag. Lab., born in county
Ann Denniss, Female, 62 (b.1779), born outside county
Thomas Denniss, Male, 30 (b.1811), Collier, born in county
John Denniss, Male, 25 (b.1816), Ag. Lab., born in county
Samuel Denniss, Male, 22 (b.1819), Collier, born in county
William Denniss, Male, 12 (b.1829), born in county
Joseph Denniss, Male, 10 (b.1831), born in county
No Mary :(
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Assuming this is the right John...
John, son of John and Catherine Dennis of Linton (John Dennis m. Catherine Astbury 13 Oct 1777 in Church Gresley)
Baptism date: 27 November 1785, Church Gresley
Baptism of John Dennis Sr?
John, son of John and Eleanor Dennis (John Dennis m. Eleanor Dodge 6 Nov 1750 in Measham)
Baptism date: 9 February 1755, Measham
John, husband of Eleanor, seems to have been the son of John and Dorothy Dennis, baptised 22 May 1725 in Measham.
John and Dorothy baptised a son, Henry, 14 Dec 1718 in Measham ;D There's your DNA link but now you have to decide if you're going to accept the 1821 Mary Ann Dennis as yours
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That happens to be the same date as I posted earlier from freereg. I guess your record is from Ancestry which is transcribed as age 16 but the record is confused by an extra stroke from the 6 which makes it look like 101, whichever I think it is more like to be the Mary Ann born 1821.
Mary Ann DENNIS Burial Age 101 6 Feb 1838 Derbyshire Church Gresley :
St Mary and St George : Parish Register
Colin
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That happens to be the same date as I posted earlier from freereg. I guess your record is from Ancestry which is transcribed as age 16 but the record is confused by an extra stroke from the 6 which makes it look like 101, whichever I think it is more like to be the Mary Ann born 1821.
Mary Ann DENNIS Burial Age 101 6 Feb 1838 Derbyshire Church Gresley :
St Mary and St George : Parish Register
Colin
Well spotted Colin!
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John Dennis of Measham married Mary Cooper of the parish 7 Jul 1818 Ticknall.
Colin
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Henry Dennis
Baptism Date: 29 Nov 1818
Baptism Place: Ticknall, Derbyshire
Father: John Dennis
Mother: Mary
Then nothing else there.
Colin
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A John & Mary had children nearby at Hartshorne : St Peter
William DENNIS Baptism 13 Feb 1820 John a Weaver
James DENNIS Baptism 30 Mar 1823 John a Labourer
Colin
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Thank you Colin and jimnix for all your efforts but I suspect I’m going to have to put Mary Dennis on the back burner for a while ;D She’s far too elusive at the moment
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Happy to help, I’m just sorry we couldn’t be more decisive ;D Mary doesn’t want to be found yet but don’t give up!
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I decided to have another look.
You mentioned that you have four DNA matches who are all descended from a Henry Dennis (b.1718 in Measham. I have followed that through, which I am sure you will have done.
Measham is a large village in the county of Leicestershire, close to its borders with Derbyshire, Staffordshire and Warwickshire. It lies off the A42, 4.5 miles south of Ashby de la Zouch, within the National Forest. Historically in Derbyshire, it lay in an enclave absorbed into Leicestershire in 1897. When you key in Measham on Ancestry both counties appear separately.
However when you view the Derbyshire marriages from 1754 the parish of Measham is not listed. Measham is about 5 miles from Hartshorne.
Henry Dennis baptised 14/12/1718 Measham Derbyshire, parents John Dennis & Dorothy
Married Sarah Burn 13 Mar 1742 Stapenhill. Died 1813 Measham Derbyshire (Anc tree)
As far as I can tell below is the only one of Henry’s sons that may lead to Mary.
Birth of Son Henry Dennis (1751–1817)
6 Nov 1751 • Measham, Derbyshire, England
Henry Dennis of Measham, married Anne Parker 5/04/1772 Stapenhill St Peter, Derbyshire
John Dennis (1780–1832)
John Dennis may have married Mary Wood 7 Jun 1804 Measham
Children baptised Hartshorne, father noted as Weaver, unless stated.
John 1813 Measham. May be on 1871 census in Ashby de la Zouch
Ann 17/09/1815, no trace
Mary Ann Dennis 13/07/1817.
William 13/02/1820, married 2 Mar 1840, Alice Wetton, both Screw Makers, grooms father John a Labourer. James Dennis a witness.
James 30 Mar 1823 but father noted as Labourer, married 12 Sep 1842, Emma Morris, both Screw Makers, grooms father John a Weaver.
John Dennis burial age 40 1784 18 Jun 1824 Hartshorne
So I am back to Mary Ann again. One tree on Ancestry has her married to Benjamin Bradley but no parents for Mary. One other tree seems to have reached different conclusion, they have her father as John 1785, his father John 1755, his father John 1726.
So maybe they are both wrong. The above seems to be one family that moved from Measham to Hartshorne
1841 census Hartshorne, Derbyshire
Mary Dennis 45
James Dennis 15
Mary Ann Dennis 20
John Dennis 2 months – Not born in County. Maybe the answer?
DENNIS, JOHN no mmn -
GRO Reference: 1841 M Quarter in ASHBY-DE-LA-ZOUCH UNION Volume 15 Page 5
Colin
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Wow, thank you Colin. Strangely enough I never thought of tracing Henry’s descendants and working through them like that ::) I’m glad you did though because I think it’s very plausible that this is my Mary!
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I wonder if John was her child?
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Baptised at Hartshorne, Derbyshire on 30 May 1841...
John son of Marianne Dennis of Hartshorne, Single Woman
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Not sure where is his in 1851 but I have him in 1861 as an apprentice shoemaker living at Rowley Regis in the home of Henry Hensley...
John Dennis, App, Single, 20,
apprentice shoemaker, born in Derby Hartshorne
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I'm glad it worked out. I think the only gap is after John Dennis married Mary Wood in 1804. I think there might have been more children born in Measham before John junior was born there in 1813, the move to Hartshorne would have been soon after that.
Good luck.
Colin
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I'm glad it worked out. I think the only gap is after John Dennis married Mary Wood in 1804. I think there might have been more children born in Measham before John junior was born there in 1813, the move to Hartshorne would have been soon after that.
Good luck.
Colin
Added - System not responding on first attempt?
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I’d like to give a big thank you to you both, Colin and jimnix, I wouldn’t have broke through the brick wall without your efforts. Rootschat is such an amazing site ;D
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Sorry I picked this up a bit late, but I have done quite a lot of research on the Dennis families in Derbyshire & Leicestershire, and I think I can tidy up a bit. We know that Mary Anne Dennis or Dennies was not with family for the 1841 census. From that I infer that she moved, married or died. The burial notably at Castle Gresley 6 Feb 1838 age 16 fits - if baptism 1 Apr 1821 would likely still be 16 going on 17. The Entry of Death might reveal that the informant was related.
The family in 1841 that jimnix found is that of John and Ann Rushton.
Her father John Dennis (m. Ann Rushton) his grandfather (also John) was brother of Henry Dennis b. 1718.
Also, Mary Anne's father was in the censuses respectively 1841 labourer, 1851 Ag Lab, 1861 Ag Laborer. I believe he died in 1864 at Barton under Needwood, where he had lived with oldest daughter Elizabeth.
To be honest, trying to find a specific Mary Dennis is like looking for a needle in a haystack.
My tree on Ancestry is BrownCarterDennisEvans.
Best wishes
Andy Dennis.