RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: zachinton on Saturday 29 August 20 02:56 BST (UK)
-
Hi all, I need help. It's my first time using RootsChat but I've hit a brick wall and figured this is the place to come for experts.
My paternal great grandfather was Joseph Hinton. I have historic records from marriage date onwards, but I can't find or identify anything on him before that with any certainty (incl. 1881/1891 census or birth/bap records)
------
Key lifestory facts
According to the 1939 Register he was born on 04/07/1872 and the 1901/1911 census records have him born in Sunderland, Durham.
He married Elizabeth (aka Betsy) Gallagher on 26/04/1897 (I have the marriage cert), aged 24 and they were both living in Sunderland. He was a Theatre Property Master.
Within 2 years, they'd moved to Huddersfield, from the birth record of his first son John Joseph Cyril Hinton (my grandfather), on 05/11/1898. On the 1901 census they had moved to Almondbury, Yorkshire and he was a stage carpenter.
On the 1911 census they're now in Halifax, Yorkshire, with new daughter Isabel, two nieces (who I know to be on the Gallagher side - not his). And a boarder Gertrude Hoare (who I can't find any obvious family connection with).
I understand from family he lived in Halifax until he died on 05/06/1946. At some stage he was a Manager at the Grand Theatre. I have found a couple of newspaper clippings with reference to him there.
------
Additional facts / clues:
1. His wife was born in Sunderland on 29/04/1866. Parents Peter Gallagher and Catherine Dooly who emigrated from Ireland.
2. He didn't list fathers' name or profession on the birth cert. Did he not know? Was he adopted? Did he choose the new name Hinton at this point? Had he been with travelling theatre?
3. Hinton might be a misspelling or deliberate contortion. There is a Hanlon family living in Sunderland on the 1891 and 1881 census with a potential Joseph (Ancestry transcription lists it as Hanton for 1891 but is clearly Hanlon other census years). However: (a) I can trace Joseph Hanlon in later years so I think different and (b) why would he not use Hinton and name his father?
5. I've started to suspect - without strong evidence - he was Irish like his wife, or at least part-Irish. My DNA results say I'm 22% Irish/Scottish, but Elizabeth Gallagher (my great grandmother) should provide me with 1/8 = 12.5% Irish. My sister has even higher Irish/Scottish %. I have traced no other Irish or Scottish relatives in the last 200 years and have quite a complete tree elsewhere. So perhaps he immigrated from Ireland hence no English records (despite listing birth city as Sunderland)? I haven't much experience yet of searching Irish records.
-----
Apols for the very long first post, but I wanted to provide as much useful info as possible for assistance. Hope I've got the etiquette right. Either direct help or tips/pointers/ideas where to look next would all be useful.
Thank you for any help! :)
-
Zac, you said he did not detail his father on the birth certificate. Which birth certificate?
Or did you mean to say his marriage certificate?
-
Thanks for the reply Spelk. My mistake yes - I meant the marriage certificate. I don't have a birth certificate for him.
-
Welcome to Rootschat!
I understand from family he lived in Halifax until he died on 05/06/1946.
The Probate Index reveals that he was living at Well Head Drive, Halifax at the time of his death, and that probate was granted to John Joseph Cyril Hinton and Mary Isobel Haigh.
Like you I have,so far, been unable to find anything pre-1897.
What were the names of witnesses to the marriage? Any clues there. Is any residence given on the certificate other than simply 'Sunderland'?
-
This is a clip from the marriage cert
(protected by Crown Copyright)
-
Wondered if maybe his surname was sort of right but he had changed his given name.
Birth q3 1872 John Henry HENTON mmn BURDESS Sunderland 10a 674. However he died same qtr so no use.
-
JenB - yes probate was to his children.
Witnesses were:
Annie Pybus - Elizabeth Gallagher's niece.
I confess - the other name I haven't been able to ready properly or track down and is therefore a relevant thread to follow still. You should be able to see in the image above if it posted okay - looks like S. Pinnear perhaps?
Address at time of marriage was 19 Farringtons [something] (Avenue perhaps, but looks like Pair or Parish). I have tried to look into that, I couldn't find anything useful related to Farringtons Avenue or similar but if you have tips on how to use that for more investigation here that would be great.
-
Have you eliminated Joseph Hanton living in Sunderland , living with his widowed mother Catherine Hanton, born St Helens in 1891 ,siblings Mary aged 23 and Thomas aged 19,
-
The address is 19 Farringtons Row, which was 'The Eagle Tavern' in 1891. The occupants in 1891 were a family called Elliott + two servants.
Perhaps Joseph was just lodging there in 1897?
-
Have you eliminated Joseph Hanton living in Sunderland , living with his widowed mother Catherine Hanton, born St Helens in 1891 ,siblings Mary aged 23 and Thomas aged 19,
Looking at the original, I think the surname there is Hanlon :-\
-
it looks more like Hanlon when you look at the census itself
-
Yes Hanlon Joseph 1874 and Thomas 1871 mother Middlehurst
-
Have you eliminated Joseph Hanton living in Sunderland , living with his widowed mother Catherine Hanton, born St Helens in 1891 ,siblings Mary aged 23 and Thomas aged 19
I had spent time on this as at first glance it seemed possible. I believe it's not the same person. I think this one went on to marry Isabella (Green?) and in the 1901 census is living in Middlesbrough working as shipyard worker, with two children Joseph 3 and Minnie 1.
This Joseph Hanlon's timeline would be:
- 1874 birth index: registration record in Jan-Mar
- 1881 census: living with family in Bishopwearmouth on Lime St, with William Hanlon from Ireland head of house, Catherine wife, John, William, Mary, Thomas and James siblings
- 1889 death index: father William died
- 1891 census: living with widowed mother Catherine Hanlon/Hanton, born St Helens, siblings Mary aged 23, Thomas aged 19. Listed as a boilersmith apprentice.
- 1901 census: Joseph living in Middlesbrough working as shipyard worker, now married to Isabella (nee Green?), with two children Joseph 3 and Minnie 1
- Also 1901 census: Joseph's mother Catherine Hanlon aged 65 widow, now working as housekeeper for Robert Emmerson family in St Andrews, North Bishopwearmouth, Sunderland
I think it's not the same because:
- I can't find any Joseph Hanlons born in Sunderland within those few years other than the above so I think the 1901 entry contradicts my Joseph Hinton's 1901 Almondbury entry
- Discrepancies in birth registration year, plus name (which would have to be a deliberate name change rather than misspelling in this case), plus the fact William was not listed on Joseph's marriage cert as father even though he would have lived with him up to age 15, plus the discrepancy in job
Can't be 100% on this but I don't think it adds up - especially on my point 1 above
Yes Hanlon Joseph 1874 and Thomas 1871 mother Middlehurst
One question please Radcliff: what did you mean by 'mother Middlehurst'?
-
The address is 19 Farringtons Row, which was 'The Eagle Tavern' in 1891. The occupants in 1891 were a family called Elliott + two servants.
Perhaps Joseph was just lodging there in 1897?
JenB - this is really useful, thanks. Leads me to think even more that he was temporarily in Sunderland rather than born / living there permanently. This is a good thread for me to explore further.
The only evidence I have that he was born in Sunderland were on the 1901/1911 census records so I've begun to doubt this more.
-
One question please Radcliff: what did you mean by 'mother Middlehurst?
Mother’s maiden surname was Middlehurst :)
-
Mother’s maiden surname was Middlehurst :)
Ah yes, thanks :) ... but I guess I really meant how did you identify her maiden name as Middlehurst? As I couldn't find a suitable match for that. Thx
-
Mother’s maiden surname is shown against births on the GRO Index https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
-
Thanks, that's awesome. I didn't know it was that easy. I'd relied on index searches on Ancestry which are inconsistent in whether they show the maiden name.
I'll some more digging next on the address at marriage, the theatre link, the other marriage witness and my Irish hunch. Any other suggestions for routes to explore would be great.
-
Doesn't help with Joseph's birth or his parents, sorry, but I have found these which may be of interest:
Sunderland Daily Echo & Shipping Gazette
10 Nov 1898, page 2, col 6
BIRTHS
HINTON - At Huddersfield, on the 5th inst., the wife of Joseph Hinton, of a son.
The Era (a theatrical newspaper sort of a forerunner to The Stage)
20 Jul 1907 page 14 col3
Boo
-
Tickettyboo - thanks for posting this. I really like newspaper clipping. I had found a couple of clippings linked to the theatre with his name on but hadn't found that one. Good to think of my great grandfather leading a day trip out for the theatre crew.
I just need to work a bit more on his time in Sunderland which is still the confusing link for me to my missing earlier Hinton line.
-
Since you have to start somewhere I thought let’s assume he was born where he said he was in the 2 censuses you have, and that his birth date is correct.
And, no father so am assuming illegitimate.
And that he was always named Joseph
A LOT of assumptions I know.
Anyway, the ONLY birth with no MMN is this one
EDWARDS, JOSEPH -
GRO Reference: 1872 S Quarter in DURHAM Volume 10A Page 379
There is one age 9 in Lanchester Union Workhouse workhouse in 1881. Exact Place of birth Not known just Durham.
But another one died in the Same qtr as that birth
There is an earlier 1872 birth Durham Joseph Edwards MMN NEWHAM
But I can’t make any progress with them either
So not a lot of help sorry