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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Westby on Monday 31 August 20 05:15 BST (UK)
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I'm hoping some of those who are expert in shipping records and passenger lists can help me to find when Agnes Alexander/Ireland came to Australia. She arrived between 1868 and 1871. She may have travelled under her maiden name or her married name.
Here's some of what I know about her:
Agnes Dick Alice Alexander
Born Dundee Scotland in 1839
Father Alexander Alexander
Mother Elizabeth Low
Married Thomas Ireland (B: 1837) in 1860 and had 4 children
James Playfair IRELAND (1861 - 1892)
Alexander IRELAND (1863 - 1871)
Elizabeth Low IRELAND (1866 - 1929)
Janet Duff IRELAND (1868 - 1943)
It seems second son Alexander died in April 1871, and husband Thomas died in October the same year.
I haven’t been able to discover when Agnes went to Australia. Did she leave before the death of her husband and son? I assume both her young daughters (Elizabeth and Janet) traveled with her.
Agnes was in Australia when she gave birth to an illegitimate daughter, Agnes Alexander (Ireland) in April 1871. There is no father on Agnes’ birth certificate, but the name IRELAND was added later. She lived as a “housekeeper” with another Thomas Ireland who is described as “an uncle by marriage” - perhaps her husband’s uncle.
Thanks in advance.
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Hi,
Do you have the birth cert for the baby born April 1871?
What colony was the birth registered in?
What info is recorded there re baby's mum ... age, birthplace, occupation, usual address ..
What is the source for the baby's birth cert having an amendment later to include more details .... is it a change signed off by the Registrar or perhaps an unauthorised note added a generation later by a researcher noting the Scottish husband's details.
I'm hoping some of those who are expert in shipping records and passenger lists can help me to find when Agnes Alexander/Ireland came to Australia. She arrived between 1868 and 1871. She may have travelled under her maiden name or her married name.
Here's some of what I know about her:
Agnes Dick Alice Alexander
Born Dundee Scotland in 1839
Father Alexander Alexander
Mother Elizabeth Low
Married Thomas Ireland (B: 1837) in 1860 and had 4 children
James Playfair IRELAND (1861 - 1892)
Alexander IRELAND (1863 - 1871)
Elizabeth Low IRELAND (1866 - 1929)
Janet Duff IRELAND (1868 - 1943)
It seems second son Alexander died in April 1871, and husband Thomas died in October the same year.
I haven’t been able to discover when Agnes went to Australia. Did she leave before the death of her husband and son? I assume both her young daughters (Elizabeth and Janet) traveled with her.
Agnes was in Australia when she gave birth to an illegitimate daughter, Agnes Alexander (Ireland) in April 1871. There is no father on Agnes’ birth certificate, but the name IRELAND was added later. She lived as a “housekeeper” with another Thomas Ireland who is described as “an uncle by marriage” - perhaps her husband’s uncle.
Thanks in advance.
JM
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NSWBDM online index, 1080/1871.
The birth is indexed twice, but in both instances it is under the family name of IRELAND.
Alexander would likely be one of the baby's Christian names.
NSW Bdm birth registrations did not allocate any surname to any baby until the late 1960s. IRELAND was likely the surname that baby's mum was using when the birth was registered.
JM
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NSWBDM online index, 1080/1871.
The birth is indexed twice, but in both instances it is under the family name of IRELAND.
Alexander would likely be one of the baby's Christian names.
NSW Bdm birth registrations did not allocate any surname to any baby until the late 1960s. IRELAND was likely the surname that baby's mum was using when the birth was registered.
JM
And the mother is ALICE.
Jamjar
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6026/1890 WATT Edmund to IRELAND Janet D
8668/1943 WATT Jessie Duff parents THOMAS and AGNES
4362/1891 TOYER James to IRELAND Agnes A
Died 3 January 1952 - I can’t see it on NSWBDM
Death and funeral notices: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18261049
7051/1892 TOYER Frederick to IRELAND Elizabeth
21815/1929 TOYER Elizabeth parents THOMAS and AGNES
Jamjar
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Thanks all.
The issue around the child's birth is interesting. The full birth name of Agnes, the mother is Agnes Dick Alice ALEXANDER, so it looks as though she might have been using a different first name when she arrived.
She certainly chops and changes. In a coroners report on the death of Thomas Ireland in 1874 (person for whom she was a "housekeeper), she gives her name as Agnes Ireland, but when she married Robert Anderson in 1877, she was recorded as Agnes Alexander, spinster.
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Hi there.
Re that 1877 marriage, is it reference no. 549? .... if you have a copy of it, may I ask for some further info ....
what info is recorded there regarding the bride, her age, her birthplace, her usual address, her occupation both her parents ... and what denomination and the name of the clergyman, and the official witnesses...
Please check for the details of when the 1877 civil registration was reconciled by NSW BDM to the church registers... if you have the NSW BDM cert, it should be in the far right hand margin area, and if you have an official transcription it should be in the notes the transcriber provides.
JM
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Do you have the birth cert (or official transcription) for Emily Windom W ANDERSON? NSW BDM reference 6458/1881. It should give you details about Emily's two older siblings, Lilly S (#4221/1877) and Jane Rogers (#5232/1879).
Emily was born 29 July 1881, and her birth registered in the Newtown district. Agnes would have been about 42 years of age when Emily was born.
Were Robert and Agnes residents of Denison Street, Camperdown? I have ancestors who were stonemasons, and I can see that some decades ago I researched many of the stonemasons in the inner west suburbs of Sydney including Camperdown, Ultimo, Pyrmont etc who were working on the construction sites in the Sydney CBD in the 1870s. One of the buildings was the GPO.
JM
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What is recorded on the death certificate for Agnes Snr?
I can’t see a suitable death for her.
Jamjar
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found an online submitted tree which has Agnes (1839-1925) DD as 15 April 1925, Raby Villa, Queens Road, Westmead, NSW
Her brother is listed there too, Alexander ALEXANDER, 1835-1917, DD at Deveron, Reynolds, St, Balmain NSW.
And, Robert Anderson, her husband DD 22 May 1899, Camperdown NSW .
Ohhhhhhhhhh and her Mum, Elizabeth LOW 1807-1888, DD 5 August 1888, 1 Hopewell St, Paddington NSW.
NO supporting documentation on the tree.
OOPS ... DD for Alexander ALEXANDER at Balmain ... 18 October 1917.
JM
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Yes JM, that's the number.
The info about the bride on the transcript:
Agnes Alexander
Birth: Melrose, Scotland (I have her born in Dundee)
No info about year of birth or age
Witnesses: Alex Alexander and Lilly Alexander (Agnes’ brother and SIL)
Clergyman: Henry Macready, Presbyterian Church
Location: Married at my residence (minister?) Crown Road, Ultimo
This is a 2017 copy, and there aren’t any other details on the form. This is not my document so I’m not sure if there was any other information provided with the original.
Sorry I don’t have birth certificates for these children.
Can’t confirm they lived in Denison Street, but Denison St is Robert’s address on the marriage certificate. He was listed as a stonemason. I do know they were living in Margaret St, Newtown in 1881and Rosser St, Balmain in 1884. They were living at 154 Australia St at the time of Robert’s death in 1899.
Sorry, I don’t have any info about her death, except that she died on 25 April 1925 at Queens Road, Westmead and was buried at Waverley Cemetery on 16 April.
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Funeral notice for Agnes ANDERSON
SMH 16 April 1925 p7
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28067646?
...Mrs W JOHN and family.....her sister and their aunt.....
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Yes JM, that's the number.
The info about the bride on the transcript:
Agnes Alexander
Birth: Melrose, Scotland (I have her born in Dundee)
No info about year of birth or age
Witnesses: Alex Alexander and Lilly Alexander (Agnes’ brother and SIL)
Clergyman: Henry Macready, Presbyterian Church
Location: Married at my residence (minister?) Crown Road, Ultimo
This is a 2017 copy, and there aren’t any other details on the form. This is not my document so I’m not sure if there was any other information provided with the original.
Sorry I don’t have birth certificates for these children.
Can’t confirm they lived in Denison Street, but Denison St is Robert’s address on the marriage certificate. He was listed as a stonemason. I do know they were living in Margaret St, Newtown in 1881and Rosser St, Balmain in 1884. They were living at 154 Australia St at the time of Robert’s death in 1899.
Sorry, I don’t have any info about her death, except that she died on 25 April 1925 at Queens Road, Westmead and was buried at Waverley Cemetery on 16 April.
Re the 1877 marriage .... so you likely have a NSW BDM registration that has NOT ever been reconciled to the actual church registers. There was a huge debate, raged for around 40 years in NSW from mid 1850s to mid 1890s. The Churches (all denominations) objected to the depth of detail required on NSW civil registrations, particularly on marriages ... Sacred info being made available to public servants who were not of the same denomination as the two who were being married... I did up a thread for RChat on how to overcome those elusive blanks on the NSW BDM records... It is now quite a long thread, but it may help you to seek out the actual parish register to confirm what info the clergyman recorded about Agnes. The info was all informant driven and the clergy would always act with discretion to encourage marriage as the preferred option to co-habitation. Anyways, here's some reading material ....
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
ALEXANDER would be a fairly popular name in NSW in that era. You will likely need to seek further than the 1877 NSW BDM registration if it has those elusive blanks, before you can be confident that Mrs Agnes Anderson was Agnes Dick Alice IRELAND, nee ALEXANDER. :) I suggested Emily's birth cert because it may help you with info about her mum's origins, to help confirm or eliminate the lass from Dundee.
JM
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Thanks so much for all this information. I take your point about this being a common name, but I'm thinking the witnesses at the wedding having the same names as Agnes' brother and SIL seems like too much of a co-incidence.
This is probably enough info about Agnes for me anyway. I was mostly curious about when she came to Australia.
BTW, you'll have noticed two of Agnes' daughters married Toyers - Agnes married James Toyer and Elizabeth married Frederick Toyer. The Toyers set up a brickworks in Dungog before moving to Marrickville where they set up a brickworks in the late 1870s. Seems the building industry is a little incestuous!
Thanks again
Fleur
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"... I was mostly curious about when she came to Australia."
The death certificate for Agnes ANDERSON, died 1925 Sydney, will ask for ...years in the colony.
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I do know they were living in Margaret St, Newtown in 1881and Rosser St, Balmain in 1884
I lived at 10 Rosser St, 1955-1960 :)
Jamjar
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I’m looking for arrival information for two Scots women who came to Sydney in the late 19th century. They travelled separately. I would appreciate anyone who has in-depth knowledge of shipping lists or other arrivals information who may be able to help. Thanks so much.
1. Agnes Dick Alice ALEXANDER
- born 1839, Dundee, Scotland
- married name IRELAND (Thomas Ireland b 1836)
- children – James Playfair IRELAND (1861-1892), Alexander IRELAND (1863-1871), Elizabeth Low IRELAND (1866-1929), Janet Duff (Jessie) IRELAND (1868-1943)
It seems Agnes left Thomas in 1869, but we don’t know when she came to Australia – possibly in 1970. We believe she came with her youngest daughter, but the other children remained in Scotland. She had an illegitimate daughter (Agnes Alexander) born in Sydney, April 1871, and lived (in Paddington) with her husband’s great-great uncle who died by suicide in 1874. Judging by other documents, it’s possible she may have used Alexander as her surname.
2. Elizabeth Low IRELAND
- daughter of the above
- born St Andrews and St Leonards, Fife, Scotland
- left with aunt (Ann Ireland/Wallace) when mother moved to Australia
- possibly working as a general servant in 1881 census
Elizabeth may have arrived with her grandmother, Elizabeth Low (Donald) and other family members by the name of LOW or DONALD. She married Frederick Toyer in Sydney in 1892.
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From their death certificates, list all the information given.
Elizabeth Toyer died in 1929,Burwood.
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Hi,
Please consider asking for this thread to be merged with the current thread on this board, as there is a great deal of info there, including for example the suggestion for info from NSW death cert.
From their death certificates, list all the information given.
Elizabeth Toyer died in 1929,Burwood.
I’m looking for arrival information for two Scots women who came to Sydney in the late 19th century. They travelled separately. I would appreciate anyone who has in-depth knowledge of shipping lists or other arrivals information who may be able to help. Thanks so much.
1. Agnes Dick Alice ALEXANDER
- born 1839, Dundee, Scotland
- married name IRELAND (Thomas Ireland b 1836)
- children – James Playfair IRELAND (1861-1892), Alexander IRELAND (1863-1871), Elizabeth Low IRELAND (1866-1929), Janet Duff (Jessie) IRELAND (1868-1943)
It seems Agnes left Thomas in 1869, but we don’t know when she came to Australia – possibly in 1970. We believe she came with her youngest daughter, but the other children remained in Scotland. She had an illegitimate daughter (Agnes Alexander) born in Sydney, April 1871, and lived (in Paddington) with her husband’s great-great uncle who died by suicide in 1874. Judging by other documents, it’s possible she may have used Alexander as her surname.
2. Elizabeth Low IRELAND
- daughter of the above
- born St Andrews and St Leonards, Fife, Scotland
- left with aunt (Ann Ireland/Wallace) when mother moved to Australia
- possibly working as a general servant in 1881 census
Elizabeth may have arrived with her grandmother, Elizabeth Low (Donald) and other family members by the name of LOW or DONALD. She married Frederick Toyer in Sydney in 1892.
JM
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"... I was mostly curious about when she came to Australia."
The death certificate for Agnes ANDERSON, died 1925 Sydney, will ask for ...years in the colony.
Please consider merging the new thread on this board with this still current thread
JM
Threads merged.
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NSW State Archives has the incoming passenger and crew manifests for the colonial era. Many are fully digitised and freely available from their website and/or the reliable mariners website. The live links are found in RChats excellent Australia Resources Board and the sub boards ....
JM
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Thanks majm and others. I completely forgot I'd already posted some of this info. I should have checked.