RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Nettie on Monday 31 August 20 10:26 BST (UK)
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Good evening all, I hope you are all staying safe in these difficult times.
I am revisiting my 2nd Great Grandparents and would like your kind assistance, please.
John Doyle (?1861- ?) and Anastasia Doyle (?1862-1924)
m. 12/6/1879, St Paul’s Dublin
(John’s father – Patrick (deceased) / Anastasia’s father – Miles Doyle)
With help from JNoone and Taramcdsmall a few years ago, I was able to flesh out more of my great grandmother’s family. See previous post:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=666710.18
Now, I am trying to find the last of the details for the family but, as I’m sure you’re aware, searching for Doyle in Dublin is quite problematic.
I have the family in 1901 at Newmarket, Merchants Quay. They were listed as CoI, John being born Wexford
John 40
Annatatia 39
Mary 18 (1883-1949)
Hannah 14 (1885-1937 m. James McCabe)
Annatatia 8 (1893-?)
In 1911, I believe they are in New Row South, Merchants Quay
John 50
Anne 52
Hannah 19
Anne 17
However, they are now Roman Catholic, John being born in Dublin.
*Mary is accounted for in 1911, as she is already married to Patrick Tyrrell and is living with him, and 2 children (Eliza and Peter) in Cork St.
In the 1911 Census, Anne/ Anastasia reports having had 9 children, only 3 living. They would be Mary, Hannah and Anne/Anastasia.
Trawling through possible birth records, I found only one of the other six:
Patrick b 24 Jan 1881 – 39 James Street. He is not in the 1901 census, and with the 3 girls accounted for, I can only surmise he is dead. I have looked for a death record and found a possibility:
It’s a tragic one – clothes accidentally catching on fire.
Patrick Aged 5, 25 March 1885 Richmond Hospital, unfortunately they wrote the word ‘from’ but included no address, so this can’t be confirm. An inquest was held 27 March 1885. The informant was coroner, so I can’t confirm a parent’s name.
Would Coroner’s records from 1885 still be available? Was it possible anything would have been in a local paper?
Also looking for help on trying to find the five deceased unknown Doyle children.
And any further information on the daughter Anne/Anastasia – I haven’t found a likely marriage or death.
Given that my 2nd great grandfather is John Doyle, who maybe Catholic, maybe CoI, maybe born in Wexford, maybe in Dublin, I'm not holding out too much hope in finding further information on him, but if your have a crystal ball or magic wand and want to weave some magic, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks for your time. Stay safe.
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Birth of Anastasia, 1893, Cornmarket, Wexford, daughter of John Doyle, Engine Driver, & Anastasia Whelan.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1893/02290/1859554.pdf
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Birth of Anastasia, 1893, Cornmarket, Wexford, daughter of John Doyle, Engine Driver, & Anastasia Whelan.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1893/02290/1859554.pdf
OP tells us that Anastasia was nee Doyle, not Whelan. Also completely different occupation than OPs family. Engine drivers were not laborers.
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I am revisiting my 2nd Great Grandparents and would like your kind assistance, please.
John Doyle (?1861- ?) and Anastasia Doyle (?1862-1924)
m. 12/6/1879, St Paul’s Dublin
(John’s father – Patrick (deceased) / Anastasia’s father – Miles Doyle)
......
The identification of the family in the 1901 and 1911 census returns seems questionable. There are not one, or two, but three large inconsistencies.
- Change of religion.
- Change of name. Anastasia and Anne are completely different names, and are not variants of one another.
- Change of birthplace.
One difference might be explained away as happenstance, but three? So, one or other of these may not be your family? Or is there some key identifier that says they are the same family, despite all the discrepancies?
In addition, how certain is the identification of the 1879 Doyle-Doyle marriage as being your family? This is not clear. If both bride and groom were "of full age" in 1879, then they should have been born 1858 or before.
But the biggest issue I see with all this lies back in the previous thread. Am I correct that the identification of Mary Doyle's family jumped a generation without ever finding a marriage record for Mary Doyle and Patrick Tyrrell, ca. 1908? In the other thread, there were comments that this could be explained by her being CoI. Even if she was (which I very much doubt), this does not explain the lack of a marriage registration. Seems they may have been unmarried - but that can be checked in two ways:
- Did anyone ever check the children's baptism records, to see what they say? If they were unmarried then this was normally noted.
- Most importantly, were Patrick Tyrrell's and Mary Doyle's baptism records ever checked? If they were married, and one or other or both were Catholic then there should be a note of where they were married, and to who.
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Here is Anastatia Doyle’s birth in 1894 - parents John Doyle and Anastatia Doyle.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1894/02251/1847131.pdf
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Thank you for your replies.
Wexflyer, I take onboard what you have said and will go back through each of my records to see how the links were made (it’s been a while since I collected the initial information.) Hopefully I’ll get a chance on the weekend.
Thanks again.
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It may be that everything is OK, and you have the right line, but whatever the case may be, you will be on firmer ground if you can check the baptisms of Patrick Tyrrell and Mary Doyle. If you know the parishes, then I would contact them directly if I were you, and ask if there is any note of marriages. Also, as you have candidates for where they lived in 1901-1911 period, did you ever ask the local parish to check their registers for a marriage?
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Another big missing piece of the puzzle is a birth for Mary Doyle - was not previously identified, as far as I can tell.
Assuming that your line is correct, then this seems to be Mary's baptism:
Mary Doyle, born 25/Jan/1883, bapt 29/Jan/1883, St. Pauls Arran Quay.
Parents John Doyle and Anastasia Doyle.
Address 27 Barrack St.
The civil registration is here
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02737/2006322.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02737/2006322.pdf)
I see that a baptism for Patrick Tyrrell was identified in the previous thread, with link which can be followed to a microfilm image. No marriage noted.
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Here is Patrick’s baptism
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.catherine_baptisms_mf_1811-1880_ba_0980
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Thanks, Wexflyer and Heywood.
The marriage for Anastasia and John is from 1879 at St Paul's as well, so looks like it's the same family. Thank you for finding it, I do appreciate it. May I ask how you found the baptism though? I have put Mary Doyle 1883-1883 into the search feature of Irishgenealogy - church records and don't come up with match at all.
I haven't gone to the churches yet, for this particular family, which I will now do. I was happy to find the civil records online (makes it so much cheaper than it once was) but will need to go back to the church.
Thanks again and stay safe.
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The marriage for Anastasia and John is from 1879 at St Paul's as well, so looks like it's the same family. Thank you for finding it, I do appreciate it. May I ask how you found the baptism though? I have put Mary Doyle 1883-1883 into the search feature of Irishgenealogy - church records and don't come up with match at all.
Well, it seems that it is simply a question of what source you use, and what is available on each.
You can see the list of Dublin Catholic parishes IrishGenealoy.ie have available online at
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/parishes/Dublin%20(RC).pdf (https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/parishes/Dublin%20(RC).pdf)
Does not include St. Paul's Arran Quay at all as far as I can see, so not too surprising you did not find them on that site.
The NLI copies of baptisms for that parish end on 11/1/1882, so you won't find that 1883 baptism there either, or on any source that uses the NLI microfilms, such as Ancestry, Findmypast, or Familysearch.
But RootsIreland has Arran Quay records to 1900. Took 30 seconds....
https://rootsireland.ie/dublinnorth/online-sources.php (https://rootsireland.ie/dublinnorth/online-sources.php)
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Thanks, Wexflyer, Much appreciated.