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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: Betty.W on Monday 31 August 20 12:19 BST (UK)
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Please help - I am trying to find the parents/mother of Samuel Jones born 1840 in Denbigh/Denbighshire. On Samuel's marriage certificate (in 1859) it gives his father as Samuel occupation Publican. Unfortunately there are lots of Samuels with a father also Samuel, so I just don't know which one is the correct one.I also haven't found Samuels DOB Samuel and Emma Jenkins were married in Exeter Devon any help would be most appreciated. Thank you.
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According to Free BMD, three births were registered in Denbighshire in the name of Samuel Jones during 1840.
Samuel Charles March Q Wrexham . Samuel. June Q St Asaph. Samuel December Q Corwen.
Free Reg has the baptism of Samuel Charles, 1 April 1840, Wrexham. Parents Joseph and Mary.
Samuel 16 April 1840, Denbigh. Parents Thomas and Jane.
Family Search has a Samuel living in Corwen with adults Edward and Ann.
I think you may have to extend your perameters of search
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Thank you but my Samuel's father was definitely Samuel - as his father's name on his marriage cert to Emma Jenkins states.
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Hi, I'm Betty's cousin. We are going wider, we're each searching separately and then trying to compare notes on anything interesting.
So our Samuel said he was 19 when he married in December 1859. By census 1861 he's listed as in the army, age 21, in a barracks of men who are all aged 21.
So that should put our Samuel's birth between December to about March (maybe to June) 1840 for registration on BMD.
Samuel puts different things for his place of birth on censuses, all but one say Denbighshre. Llanarmon, Wrexham, Denbigh. Except for the odd one out where he's listed as Cardiff.
So we focused on a Samuel, son of Samuel, born in Llanarmon yn Ial, Denbighshire. The only problem is that that Samuel was born about April 1839 and his father wasn't a publican but a nailer.
I don't particularly care that the Llanarmon yn Ial Samuel was a nailer rather than publican -- maybe our Samuel thought it sounded more impressive to tell his fiancee that his dad was a publican instead of a nailer? But that doesn't fix the problem with the month of birth.
It seems from eyeballing all these Samuel Jones's in the censuses that every single one is 'taken', ie it's possible to follow them from census to census. But our one should disappear in 1861 when he's already joined the army. Samuel son of Samuel and Eleanor does disappear and hasn't been claimed by any other family trees on Ancestry. All the other trees on Ancestry that have the Samuel and Eleanor family have assigned the incorrect son Samuel to their family. That means that their Samuel hasn't been correctly located in the 1851 census, and neither has our Samuel. It would be ideal if they were one and the same. But how can they be the same one if one was born April 1839 and the other wasn't born for another 7 months?
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This sounds ridiculous, but could our Samuel, when he married, have told the vicar that he was 19 instead of 20?
I can't think of a reason for him doing that as his new wife was already 20, so even if he lied about his father's occupation there's no logical reason to lie about his age.
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Hello
I've looked and found the same Samuels as you and also gone through the 1841 and 1851 censuses for Denbigh itself looking for a Samuel, publican. I've not found any that fit as yet.
Could it be that your Samuel was illegitimate and gave his own name for his father? My grandfather did the same on his marriage certificate.
Gadget
Add - neither the non-conformist registers or freereg have anyone matching these parametrs.
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Is this possibly him in 1851 in Lancashire?
Griffith Evans 46
Elizth Evans 43
Edwin Evans 21
Samuel Jones 12 Nephew born Darxgernices, Denbighshire (as transcribed)****
Hugh Jones 17 Visitor same place of birth
Elizth Dunning 56
Griffith Evans is born same place but in 1861 is born Toole Farn Dangermie, Derbyshire, England
Image is Denbighshire**, not Derbyshire.
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Hello
I've looked and found the same Samuels as you and also gone through the 1841 and 1851 censuses for Denbigh itself looking for a Samuel, publican. I've not found any that fit as yet.
Could it be that your Samuel was illegitimate and gave his own name for his father? My grandfather did the same on his marriage certificate.
Gadget
Add - neither the non-conformist registers or freereg have anyone matching these parametrs.
I never thought of that explanation for the father's name. There are a number of explanations why a Samuel sr wouldn't be in a census...he could have died, the mother could have remarried, the children could have been informally adopted. So I think we will have to just focus on what we do know about our Samuel, which is that he should have been registered first quarter 1840 and born somewhere in Wales...and it has to be someone not living in Wales in 1861 or thereafter.
I think the key might be to find an organisation system to track all of these men called Samuel Jones who were born in the right time and place.
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Is this possibly him in 1851 in Lancashire?
Griffith Evans 46
Elizth Evans 43
Edwin Evans 21
Samuel Jones 12 Nephew born Darxgernices, Denbighshire (as transcribed)****
Hugh Jones 17 Visitor same place of birth
Elizth Dunning 56
Griffith Evans is born same place but in 1861 is born Toole Farn Dangermie, Derbyshire, England
Image is Denbighshire**, not Derbyshire.
Just glancing through the records I can't see a Samuel born Llangerniew to fit that one in Toxteth, Lancs. I can see there is at least one born there, but it'll take a bit more work to see if it's the same one who's maybe been orphaned and moved in with relatives in Liverpool.
Definitely worth looking into. Thanks!
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Have you check for his service records?
add- witnesses to marriage don't seem to give any clues - William Cumberland and Jane ?
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no, would that show his mothers name? I did think about the witnesses to his marriage but they don't give any clues either.
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I've just had a quick look but can't see anything that jumps out. His marriage has him as in the Lancers.
There could be a service record which should give where he enlisted which might help.
Another thought - what did they name any children, in date order? That often helps to identify parents, as children where often named after grandparents, etc. .
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Have you seen the baptism of a Samuel Allen Jones, Llanarmon yn Ial December 2 1839
Parents - Rees and Elizabeth Jones, living at the Butcher's Arms alias Ship's Tavern. Rees's ocupation is given as a butcher.
It doesn't fully match but often people combined running a tavern with another occupation.
Apols for some typos. My keyboard is sticking
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1851: HO107/2504/45/1
Butchers Arms Llanarmon yn Ial
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Their childrens names were :- Emma, Ann and Louisa
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The North Wales BMD has the following possible birth registrations (1838-1841):
Samuel Jones, 1939, Llanarmon yn Ial
Samuel Alyn Jones 1939, Llanarmon yn Ial
Samuel Jones, 1840, Denbigh
I've selected the ones that sound the most likely
http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/birthsearch.php
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Not sure that the Samuel A is yours as there is one b. Llanarmon, circa 1840 on the 1861 in Holywell
RG09/4274/29/12
Add
By 1861 The Butcher's Arms was occupied by Thomas Roberts
RG09/4289/35/1
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Thanks Gadget. Pretty sure that Samuel Alyn is not my Samuel. Samuel 1840 born Denbigh seems most likely, if his father was Samuel as well. The trouble is there are too many people named Samuel.!!
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Thanks Gadget. Pretty sure that Samuel Alyn is not my Samuel. Samuel 1840 born Denbigh seems most likely, if his father was Samuel as well. The trouble is there are too many people named Samuel.!!
The local BMD indexes by sub-district. The GRO by district. There is just the one for 1840.
Jones, Samuel, 1940, June Q, St Asaph , Vol 27, page 207. Mother's maiden name - Jones
You might have it.
Add - I'm sure I typed up that Denbigh was in the St Asaph Reg district ???
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I think that is my Samuel it seems to be the only one that fits with his birth year (1840) and age at marriage (19), but it still doesn't give his mother's first name. !!
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I think that is my Samuel it seems to be the only one that fits with his birth year (1840) and age at marriage (19), but it still doesn't give his mother's first name. !!
The GRO index has his mmn as Jones
Samuel Jones, June Q, 1840, St Asaph, v 27. p 207. MMN - Jones
Denbigh was a sub district of St Asaph RD see my previous post.
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It's worth bearing in mind that Civil Registration started in 1837 - so it's possible that Samuel's parents marriage, or the birth of any older siblings, would be in parish or nonconformist records. And there are cases where the church records continue after 1837.
And if you are still following the connection with Liverpool, have you considered that the Hugh Jones listed there is Samuel's brother? And that Samuel might not have been an orphan - he was old enough at 12 to have left school and joined the thousands of Welsh people who moved to Liverpool to find work. Younger people would normally be lodged with relatives.
Good luck - it's conundrums like this that keep me engrossed in this subject.
Alyn
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Thanks. Here is what I know - Samuel was born in Denbigh in 1840 - He was a soldier in the 9th Lancers service number 296 (don't know when he enlisted) He married Emma Jenkins in 1859 in Exeter, he was stationed at that time in Exeter his age on the marriage cert is 19. They had three daughters - Emma, Ann and Louisa. in 1861 he was in Aldershot - in 1871 He was in Seacombe Cheshire and in 1881 he and his family were in Liverpool. According to his marriage certificate Samuels father also named Samuel was a publican. Ann was my great grandmother later I believe she called herself Annie and her second name was Elizabeth. All that I am looking for is Samuel's mother., who was she?