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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: Stanwix England on Monday 31 August 20 22:47 BST (UK)

Title: Professional witness?
Post by: Stanwix England on Monday 31 August 20 22:47 BST (UK)
I've been doing some research concerning families in the Bolton area and I noticed the name 'James Orrell' on a marriage record as a witness.

Then I saw him on another one and wondered if he was a friend of the family.

However, looking again, I can see that actually he turns up as a witness on a lot of marriages.

This made me curious and I tried to find a James Orrell in Bolton who might be in some way related to the church, but didn't turn much up.

Just made me wonder who he was and why he witness to so many marriages. It's not important to my research, I'm just being nosey.  ;D

GB127.L243/1/4/13 - is the reference to what I was looking at.

Robert Bolton and Martha Smith, 23/10/1815 , St Peters, Bolton-le-Moors was the particular record I was looking at.
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: Jebber on Monday 31 August 20 23:09 BST (UK)
It was quite common for the same person to witness many marriages in a church , it was often the Parish Clerk, or someone else closely connected to the church. I have come across some marriages witnessed by the sexton, I know he was the sexton as he was one of my ancestors.
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: Stanwix England on Monday 31 August 20 23:10 BST (UK)
Thank you Jebber, that is interesting.  :)
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: Rena on Tuesday 01 September 20 00:17 BST (UK)
I too have found the same person acting as a witness to my ancestors up in Scotland
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: Guy Etchells on Tuesday 01 September 20 06:11 BST (UK)
First thing to note it is very doubtful he was a "Professional witness", i.e. someone paid to witness the marriage.
It is far more likely he was a person who was often in the church or churchyard, because he worked there, visited the church often or tended family grave in the churchyard, he may even have lived next door or across the road from the church and have been happy to pop in to witness a marriage.
Some people just like attending marriages.
Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: coombs on Tuesday 01 September 20 13:17 BST (UK)
Also he may have been a local pillar of the community such as the local publican, blacksmith or merchant, or a parish overseer who liked to witness marriages.
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: Kiltpin on Tuesday 01 September 20 13:37 BST (UK)
Until the start of the lockdown there was usually an elderly, well dressed, gent hanging around the outside of the Thetford Registry Office, because "there is always a drink in it afterwards". 

Regards
Chas
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 01 September 20 13:39 BST (UK)
Quote
Robert Bolton

Robert Booth

James Orrell was possibly a churchwarden.
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: stanmapstone on Tuesday 01 September 20 14:07 BST (UK)
The relevant Acts say that all Marriages had to be solemnized in the Presence of two or more credible Witnesses, without defining what a 'credible' witness was. It was up to who ever was officiating to decide whether they were credible or not. The advice to the clergy was these should, whenever practicable be the relatives or friends of the parties, who would be able to testify afterwards to the identity of the persons from personal knowledge or recollection.

Stan
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 01 September 20 14:12 BST (UK)
James Orrell was buried at St Peters on 23 April 1816. The register records that he was the parish clerk.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2963/images/40364_633870_2666-00066
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: Stanwix England on Tuesday 01 September 20 14:29 BST (UK)
Ah, thanks everyone. Sorry about the Booth/Bolton mix up, I've got Bolton on the brain.
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Tuesday 01 September 20 14:41 BST (UK)
A churchwarden known to our family in 19th C was frequently a witness to weddings.
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 01 September 20 17:09 BST (UK)
James Orrell was buried at St Peters on 23 April 1816. The register records that he was the parish clerk.

Another parish clerk was Wiliam Orrell, buried at St. Peter's 18th Dec. 1812.
A search for James Orrell as a marriage witness at St. Peter's has 3,840 hits between 1789-1816. A James Orrell witnessed many weddings with a William Orrell 1802-1812 and also in 1814 & 1816. Both witnesses to a wedding in 1816 were called William Orrell according to transcription on LANOPC.
A search for William Orrell as wedding witness at St. Peter's gets 5,590 results 1777-1816 !
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: coombs on Tuesday 01 September 20 20:17 BST (UK)
I can see how deflating it can be when you find the witnesses to your elusive ancestor's marriages were regular ones such as church workers. At first you may think that a John Hammond wedding and a Thomas Hammond wedding 5 years apart in the same parish being witnessed by the same people that there must be a connection if, say Thomas was your ancestor and you are hoping to find relatives, until further inspection finds the witnesses were regular ones. John and Thomas could have been related but you'd need to find other documents to try and find a link.
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: Rena on Tuesday 01 September 20 20:28 BST (UK)
I can see how deflating it can be when you find the witnesses to your elusive ancestor's marriages were regular ones such as church workers. At first you may think that a John Hammond wedding and a Thomas Hammond wedding 5 years apart in the same parish being witnessed by the same people that there must be a connection if, say Thomas was your ancestor and you are hoping to find relatives, until further inspection finds the witnesses were regular ones. John and Thomas could have been related but you'd need to find other documents to try and find a link.

I probably did what many others did and that was to do a chart for the James Scott that witnessed many of my family weddings, then also tried to link his successor to my family aswell   I would probably have got extremely creative if one of my older cousins hadn't casually mentioned it was common for a local church warden, sexton, etc. to act as a witness.
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: coombs on Tuesday 01 September 20 20:36 BST (UK)
I can see how deflating it can be when you find the witnesses to your elusive ancestor's marriages were regular ones such as church workers. At first you may think that a John Hammond wedding and a Thomas Hammond wedding 5 years apart in the same parish being witnessed by the same people that there must be a connection if, say Thomas was your ancestor and you are hoping to find relatives, until further inspection finds the witnesses were regular ones. John and Thomas could have been related but you'd need to find other documents to try and find a link.

I probably did what many others did and that was to do a chart for the James Scott that witnessed many of my family weddings, then also tried to link his successor to my family aswell   I would probably have got extremely creative if one of my older cousins hadn't casually mentioned it was common for a local church warden, sexton, etc. to act as a witness.

Either that or the witnesses were just mates of the bride/groom as opposed to relatives. Many times the couple eloped and married in secret so obvs the witnesses would be 2 strangers. Even people off the street may have been asked to witness a marriage.
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 02 September 20 16:51 BST (UK)
One of my ancestors witnessed 3 weddings on the same day in 1818. He was a stonemason and it's possible that he was working at the church or in the churchyard. The other witness was a regular, probably parish clerk. Bride of one couple and groom of another shared a surname so they may have had a double ceremony.
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: BumbleB on Wednesday 02 September 20 16:59 BST (UK)
I think we also have to remember that marriages were NOT always the grand occasions we have currently.  I think that the majority of weddings took place when the bride and groom were able to have time off work at the same time, and that possibly didn't extend to family and/or friends, so available persons were approached. 
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 02 September 20 17:19 BST (UK)
One of my ancestors witnessed 3 weddings on the same day in 1818. He was a stonemason and it's possible that he was working at the church or in the churchyard.

I checked what day of the week it was - Monday. My ancestor married at the same church 7 years earlier, also on a Monday. There was another wedding that day, same 2 witnesses for both. One witness was probably a relative of the other groom. Second witness was the regular who was at the 3 weddings in 1818.   
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: coombs on Wednesday 02 September 20 23:45 BST (UK)
Or if the witnesses were relatives, and you cannot find any info on one of the spouses prior to their marriage, it will be typical that the witnesses were from the traceable spouses side and not the elusive spouses side.
Title: Re: Professional witness?
Post by: andrewalston on Monday 07 September 20 21:13 BST (UK)
One o the people in my tree was Parish Clerk, and uncle of the bride who links him into my tree. Yes, he is a witness to the marriage.

Because I have other lines going back to the same village, he is also a witness to about 50 other marriages in my tree.

Parish Clerks would have to be present in order to open the Parish Chest for access to the marriage register, so would be an obvious choice as a witness. They also had the advantage of being literate, which some might see as adding status to the event.