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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Peggy13 on Tuesday 01 September 20 02:18 BST (UK)
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I have found an online tree which says that Annie Keen died in Salford, Lancashire, England in 1932. She was born in Coagh, Co. Tyrone, Ireland in 1870 to Andrew Johnston and Nancy Wallace. She married George Harry Brown about 1893, according to this tree, even though daughter Annie Johnston Brown was born Sept 29,1891 in Manchester. Then she married Robert Bernard Keen abt 1906 or at least he was a significant other. Then she died in 1932 but I can't find her death and am not sure of exact date. Robert died sometime in 1935.
thanks for any help with these deaths. Would the parents be listed at that time?
Peggy
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Goodness, these are elusive aren't they!
I thought I would start with the less common name first but....
I do not see an English death for Robert Bernard KEEN at all. There is a 1935 death for a John Bernard KEEN and I cannot help wondering if some confusion has arisen as a result. It's not him. he was only 8 years old.
in 1901 it looks as though this Robert is in London, a Hostler, Buck yard. born "Bucks ford Aylesbury"
He is lodging with George & Matilda Whitney, but Matilda also born Bucks ford Ayelsbury and is nee KEEN.
Looking at the family of Annie JOHNSON/BROWN and Robert Bernard KEEN it seems all children are registered under BROWN
I think this one is the youngest one, known as KEEN
BROWN Robert. 1904 D qtr, in Salford vol 08D page 129 MMN Johnson (ie not the Liverpool one the tree has linked. That one has a MMN of AUGHTON)
so is the 1906 marriage to Ellen WARD of Robert Bernard KEEN, the RBK b 1882, Northamptonshire? because surely if you are acknowledging a child as yours that was born in 1904 you wouldn't leave and marry someone else and then go back in time to have Frank KEEN mmn JOHNSON in the J qtr of 1909. (he died 1910)
(Although human beings are full of surprises ;D)
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Hi....
Ford Aylesbury Bucks would be Dinton with Ford. Ford is a small hamlet.
So the 1901 Robert is Robert bap 19 Nov 1880 father Timothy mother Mary Ann (Southam)in Dinton.
Birth registered 2nd qt 1879. Family are in Dinton in 1881 1891. Robert in 1911 is in Woolwich.
Robert Bernard born Aylesbury is the son of Frank and Elizabeth birth registered 1880 qt1. They are in Aston Warwickshire in 1891.
Tazzie
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Robert in 1911 is in Woolwich.
How do you account for this then?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW1S-PVF
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Hi
To show there are 2 Robert Keens born in "Aylesbury' one plain Robert
With sister in 1901 as you found he's in Woolwich in 1911. Hes born Ford/ Dinton. The other is Robert Bernard Keen born Aylesbury he's in Warwickshire in 1891 plain Robert is in Dinton Ford in 1891.
The 1906 Salford marriage...
Robert Bernard Keen 26 railway porter bach of 6 West Mason St. Father Frank lift engineer.
Ellen Ward 18 laundress spin of 101 Hope St father George labourer.
Tazzie
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Ah, right, sorry 😐
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the 1881 census has sister Matilda with Robert in Dinton as well.
no problem no one ever said we had an easy hobby
Tazzie
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As per the 1911:
BROWN, GEORGE HARRY mmn JOHNSON
GRO Reference: 1889 J Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 180
Maybe: BROWN, JOHN EDWARD mmn JOHNSON
GRO Reference: 1903 M Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 105
BROWN, ROBERT mmn JOHNSON
GRO Reference: 1906 D Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 129
Jamjar
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Baptism for George says he was born 14 March 1895
Having trouble finding anything in the GRO though
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Thank you, everyone. I am sure that the 1911 census with Annie living with Robert Bernard Keen is the correct family. Annie is recorded as being born in Cough, although it should say Coagh. The marriage of Robert Bernard Keen to Ellen Ward in 1906 must be connected to the wrong Robert Bernard Keen.
I have found an unconfirmed date of death for George Harry Brown on Nov 14, 1899. This means that John Edward Brown born Dec 5, 1902, unconfirmed, must actually belong to Robert Keen, also Robert Brown Nov 12, 1903, unconfirmed. Young Robert is sometimes recorded as Robert Keen and born Liverpool. There is a Frank Keen born at 1909 and died abt 1910.
I have not found either marriage for Annie, or any of the deaths involved.
Thanks for your help.
Peggy
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Hi..
Freebmd does have a death for George Harry Brown Dec 1919 Salford age 29.
As for Robert Bernard Keen The fact there is a Frank b 1910 ties in to the Aylesbury born Robert whose father is Frank. Also Frank and wife Elizabeth are living in Salford in 1911.
As to where they all go after 1911 .......I've looked but I'm stumped.
Tazzie
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Thank you Tazzie. The death of George Harry Brown in Dec 1919 age 29 cannot be the correct person as that would make him born abt 1890 and he was having children in possibly 1891(daughter Annie) and in 1895 (son George Harry Brown).
For George Harry Brown, Sr., I have a date of birth of Nov 12, 1870 (unconfirmed) in Northwich, Cheshire, England to James Brown and Ann Ellen Burgess. Must have gotten this from the tree on Ancestry which seems to have many mistakes. I also have a note - did he change his name from William Warlow Brown???)
The last time that I found Annie and Robert Bernard Keen was 1911 in Salford. I will continue to look.
Peggy
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Just adding more to the mix... 2 baptisms..
Robert Bernard
Charles Vivian both bapt 6th Jan 1882 at Dallington Northants
Father Frank mother Polly.
Both births give mothers maiden name as Hewson on GRO.
In 1881 our suggested father for Robert Bernard was just down the road from me in Fenny Stratford.
....cannot find more on Charles Vivian ?
Tazzie
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Looking at the image of 1911 suggests John Edward Brown (?born Dec 5, 1902) isn't Robert's child
I note Ellen Ward isn't necessarily truthful about her age when she marries. She says she's 18 in Sept 1906 when she marries Robert Bernard, lift attendant, son of Frank.
There's a good fit for a baptism of an Ellen b 3 May 1890
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Hmmm. Regarding John Edward Brown 1902, I just thought perhaps he was Robert Bernard Keen's child born before marriage, but perhaps he had a different father. He certainly wasn't a child of Charles Henry Brown's as he was born 3 years after Charles' death. And Robert Brown/Keen was born 5 years after Charles' death. So maybe there is another man between Charles Henry and Robert Bernard Keen.The 1911 says Annie and Robert have been married 6 years, so 1905-ish, had 2 children, one living (Robert) and one died (Frank).
Regarding Ellen Ward, I thought she was a "red herring" and wasn't married to the same Robert Bernard Keen. But perhaps she was, since Robert's father is Frank.Then again, this Robert's parents were Robert and Elizabeth, and there seems to be another Robert and Charles Vivian born to Frank and Polly. I need to look at Robert's occupation more closely - in 1911, with Annie, he is machinery-packer. At time of marriage to Ellen, he was lift attendant. Where is he in 1901 and what is his occupation?
Thanks once again.
Peggy
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Just to put all the Keen/Ward marriage info in one place
Marriage: 8 Sep 1906 Christ Church, Salford, Lancashire, England
Robert Bernard Keen - 26, Railway Porter, Bachelor, 6 West Mason St.
Ellen Ward - 18, Laundress, Spinster, 101 Hope Street
Groom's Father: Frank Keen, Lift Attendant
Bride's Father: George Ward, Labourer
Witness: George Ward; Mary Ann Ward
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can anyone see Robert Bernard Keen in 1881 with his mother. His "father" if I have the correct one is in Fenny Stratford Buckinghamshire.
There are no births in Northamptonshire for Robert Bernard Keen but Charles Vivian is born there.
I will ask for a look up in Dallington.
Tazzie
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Annie in 1901
Name Age
Annie Brown 30 (widowed)
Annie Brown 9
George Parry Brown 6 (should be Harry)
Joseph Brown 2
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Hi...
The lovely. PrawnCocktail over on the northants board has just posted this...
Northampton St James
Parents Frank and Polly of 33 Park Street. Frank and engine driver. Now in 1881 & 1891 he is an engine fitter.
Tazzie
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Thank you. What year are Frank and Polly on 33 park Street?
This whole picture is confusing. I am confident that we have the correct Annie in 1901 and 1911. Robert is another matter. According to the 1911, Robert and Annie are married 6 years and have had 2 children. That means they were married about 1905. So doesn’t make sense that the same Robert married Ellen Ward 1906. I guess we need to find Annie’s marriage to Robert. The Robert that married Ellen was railway porter but Annie’s husband was machinery-packer. Could change occupations I guess but.....
Annie’s year of marriage could be wrong on 1911. If she married in 1905, why would Robert be registered under Brown in 1906.
Peggy
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BROWN, ROBERT mmn JOHNSON
GRO Reference: 1906 D Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 129
A baptism at Stowell Memorial Church, Salford, 18 Oct 1906
Robert
parent Annie Brown
abode Salford Workhouse
Marriage: 8 Sep 1906 Christ Church, Salford, Lancashire, England
Robert Bernard Keen - 26, Railway Porter, Bachelor, 6 West Mason St.
Ellen Ward - 18, Laundress, Spinster, 101 Hope Street
Image on FamilySearch, may be elsewhere too, if you want to look at signature
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939K-C3QM-RT
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I studied the signatures on the 1911 census and the 1906 marriage to Ellen. I think they are different, although not vastly different. The T in Robert and the B in Bernard are different. I didn't think of comparing signatures before.
So Annie is in the Workhouse in Oct 1906 when son Robert is baptised. And her name is still Brown. So she can't have married Robert Bernard Keen in 1905 (married 6 yr as per 1911 census). Possibly wanted marriage date to be before Robert's birth.
Thanks
Peggy
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So she can't have married Robert Bernard Keen in 1905 (married 6 yr as per 1911 census). Possibly wanted marriage date to be before Robert's birth.
It wouldn't be the first time on 1911 census
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Just to add, although it doesn’t seem to help much, that Robert Bernard Keen, b Aylesbury who joined the Rifle Brigade in 1895 and was discharged in 1897 due to ear damage has next of Kin as
Father, Frank Keen, 34 Charles St, Hyde, Cheshire.
In 1901 that address is a “Common Lodging House”
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Thank you. What year are Frank and Polly on 33 park Street?
Peggy
Hi that was the address in 1882 when the boys were baptised.
We have to concede there is only 1 birth of a Robert Bernard Keen and only 1 marriage......but where is a death record?
In 1911 he is correct in that he married in 1906 .......but we don't know how long her been living with Annie. Ellen......I wonder what happened there can anyone see anything in any local papers?
Tazzie
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I did look for the death of an Ellen Keen about 1907/1908 without luck. And for a marriage of Robert Bernard Keen to Annie without luck. And for the deaths of both Annie and Robert.
Son Robert Brown reportedly died 1972, not sure where, and not sure if he was using name Brown or Keen when he died. An obit might help.
Peggy
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On findagrave, I did find the burial of a Robert Brown in 1972 but dob is unknown. However, area is Manchester so could be the right person.
Death 24 Apr 1972
BURIAL
Southern Cemetery
Chorlton-Cum-Hardy, Metropolitan Borough of Manchester, Greater Manchester, England
PLOT KKConsecrated 664
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I can give you Ellen Ward in 1901, in case it helps.
Living in Hope Street, Salford
piece 3732 folio 118 page 6
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9KB-NL9
Waid on ancestry.
Ellen is only 10 in 1891, so was even younger than she said when she married Robert Keen.
WARD, ELLEN
Mother's Maiden Surname: HUGHES
GRO Reference: 1890 J Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 174
Brother George had married Margaret France at Pendleton in July 1906, I think they were the marriage witnesses.
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Free index to 1911 has a George Ward, 66, and Helen Ward, 64, in Salford.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW1Q-8SH
Could they be the parents we see in Hope Street in 1901, and, if so, are there any clues as to surviving children?
John
ADDED
They had six children in 1891
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:78ZZ-PZM
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Possible new development with Ellen Ward.
She was baptized at Christ Church, Salford, 4 June 1890
Born May 3rd 1890
Parents George and Ellen, father a Labourer.
Image here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939K-HX9G-7Y?i=576
I put "Ellen" born 3.5.1890 into the search boxes for the 1939 Register, and the free index brought up a few in Lancashire, including
Ellen Cliffe, living at 67 Ash Street, Salford C.B.
Thomas Cliffe and 3 more people are on this record.
Back to 1911 (free index again)
Ellen Cliffe, 20, born Salford, married to Thomas, and with two children
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWBY-58M
Children..
CLIFFE, THOMAS
Mother's Maiden Surname: WARD
GRO Reference: 1908 M Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 190
CLIFFE, HARRY
Mother's Maiden Surname: WARD
GRO Reference: 1909 D Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 26
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There is a possible marriage for the Cliffe couple in 1907!
18 Aug 1907 at St Peters, Congleton
Thomas Cliffe
+
Nellie Ward, father George Ward
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F3GT-3XX
Interesting!
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Wow, jonw65, you are making real progress. Must be correct Ellen aka Nellie. So if she married Robert Bernard Keen in Sept 1906 and Thomas Cliffe Aug 1907, I wonder if her marriage to Robert was annulled. thanks for all this great information.
Peggy
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My original Annie was baptised June 17, 1870 in Urbal, Coagh, Co. Tyrone but she would be deceased before the 1939 Registers. Her daughter Annie Johnston Brown was born Sept 29, 1891 in Manchester and married Harry Moores Sept 13, 1913. Wonder if you can find her in 1939. She supposedly died Sept 1960.
Peggy
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Hi
Using that d-o-b you gave, the free index has her
Annie Moores born 1891
Living at 8 Hayfield Street, Salford C.B.
Harry Moores is also on this record
1 more person who is officially closed.
That's all we are allowed to give on Rootschat!
Juggling with it, Harry was born 1890
John
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That death you mention does look quite possible
Sep 1960 Salford 10f 403
Moores, Annie
age 68
I think she must be the Annie Moores cremated 15 August 1960
Location Greater Manchester
Info from Deceased Online free index.
John
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Thanks again, John. You are quite the detective. What does it mean when someone is officially closed?
Peggy
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I tried to find the baptism of John Edward Brown, born Dec 5, 1902 and registered March quarter of 1903, in Stowell Memorial, same place as his brother Robert but didn't find him there. Curious as to what it would say about parents.
Peggy
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On findagrave, I did find the burial of a Robert Brown in 1972 but dob is unknown. However, area is Manchester so could be the right person.
Death 24 Apr 1972
BURIAL
Southern Cemetery
Chorlton-Cum-Hardy, Metropolitan Borough of Manchester, Greater Manchester, England
PLOT KKConsecrated 664
FreeBMD gives the birth date for what I think is this burial as "About 1900"
I offer another contender
there is a death in 1979 March qtr
BROWN, Robert dob 20 Sept 1906, Salford 39 1104
Assuming of course that he kept to BROWN. After all he was KEEN in 1911. But perhaps Robert Bernard KEEN sloped off not long afterward and they all reverted to BROWN
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That is a good contender Mckha489. From what I have seen, Robert was born in 1904 but not registered until 1906. Does anyone know if, by 1979, parents names are given on death certificates as I understand that earlier ones did not have that information.
My mother was a Johnston born in Canada but I do not know if this family has any connection to mine.
Peggy
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5 in 1911
1911 - 5 = 1906
Registration Dec qtr 1906
Baptism Oct 1906
I don't know why you would think 1904 birth
No the death cert will not have parents names on it :(
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I tried to find the baptism of John Edward Brown, born Dec 5, 1902 and registered March quarter of 1903, in Stowell Memorial, same place as his brother Robert but didn't find him there. Curious as to what it would say about parents.
Peggy
Looked through lancs opc site and found this .....what do you think?
Joannes Edwardus Spidy -Brown filius Joannis Brown & Annae (formally Johnson)
Born 5th Dec 1903 abode Paradise Hill .
Godparents Petrus Hunt Margaret Keefe.
St Peter's Greengate. Which is in Salford.
It was the date of birth that stood out.... But out by 1 year?
Tazzie
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that does look good Tazzie.
I feel I have seen a reference to 'Paradise Hill' earlier
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1901
5 Paradise Hill, Salford
John SPIBEY widower age 48. Labourer at Iron Foundry. b Bolton
and his son Alfred age 15
added - this might be his death March qtr 1907
SPIBY John 54 Salford 8d 50
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On well done.... That cracks that one.
Spibey not Spidy.....easy done .
Tazzie
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I have to admit that I obviously don't know much about researching in England, in particular Lancashire. So it is a good thing that I have all of you wonderful people to help me.
First of all, I probably got the idea that son Robert Brown was born in 1904 from this -BROWN Robert. 1904 D qtr, in Salford vol 08D page 129 MMN Johnson (ie not the Liverpool one the tree has linked. That one has a MMN of AUGHTON).
However Jamjar found this - BROWN, ROBERT mmn JOHNSON
GRO Reference: 1906 D Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 129 (or is prev quote of 1904 a typo as this is same volume and Page as above?)
And John found this - A baptism at Stowell Memorial Church, Salford, 18 Oct 1906
Robert parent Annie Brown abode Salford Workhouse
And Mckha found this - there is a death in 1979 March qtr
BROWN, Robert dob 20 Sept 1906, Salford 39 1104
So I think we have established that Robert was born Sept 20,1906, bapt Oct 18, 1906, and registered in Dec quarter of 1906. All fits.
Then John Edward Brown - if I understand correctly, he was born Dec 5, 1903 to John Spibey and Annie Brown, formerly Johnson. NOT this possible one - Maybe: BROWN, JOHN EDWARD mmn JOHNSON GRO Reference: 1903 M Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 105 (or is wrong year entered on baptism?) And should it say "filius Joannis Spibey"? When did baptism take place?
Thanks again so very much. Oh, there is a tree on familysearch that gives Robert Bernard Keen's parents as Frank Keen and Elizabeth Gemmell with Elizabeth dying in 1913. Of course, that same tree gives the date of marriage of Robert Bernard Keen to Annie as Sept 8, 1906 and we know that Robert married Ellen Ward on that date so.....
Peggy
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this is the actual transcription from lan-opc
Baptism: 17 Jan 1904 St Peter, Greengate, Lancashire, England
Joannes Edwardus Spidy-Brown - filius Joannis Brown & Annae (formerly Johnson)
Born: 5 Dec 1903
Abode: 6 Paradise Hill
Godparents: Petrus Hunt; Margaret Keefe
I would have thought given the baptism date that 1903 was the correct DOB as RC baptisms usually took place fairly soon after birth
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Thank you lancsann. That does help. I am surprised that baptism is in Catholic Church.
What does lan-opc stand for?
Peggy
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lancashire online parish clerks. There are quite a few parish clerks sites around but I think Lancashire is one of the best. (free sites)
That baptism may not be relevant to you. I think there were quite a few Brown/Johnson combinations and quite a lot of Annie Johnsons
Not sure how many English versions of the Latin Annae there are either
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You are right - hard to know for sure. But in view of the fact that it names Annie Brown formally Johnson, and the child is John Edward, and Annie had a son John, and the residence is Paradise Hill, it seems to fit. If we could find the death of a John Edward Brown, maybe in the 1960s or 70s, it might help.
I was thinking some more about Robert's actual baptism - is there any indication of who the father might be? If he was born Sept 20, 1906 and Robert Bernard Keen married Ellen Ward on Sept 8, 1906, the father might not be Robert Bernard Keen. But who knows...
Peggy
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What does it mean when someone is officially closed?
Hi
It means that the record on the 1939 Register is redacted (with a black strip). This applies to anybody born less than 100 years ago whose death has not been confirmed.
We can look for another one of yours by popping in a date of birth!
So trying 5.12.1902 to look for John, and the free index has 20 Browns born on that day.
One is
John C Brown, born 1902, living at 2 Windsor Terrace, Failsworth, Salford C.B.
Could C be a misreading of E? :-\
It also says that George H Brown and 4 more people are on the record, plus 2 more people who are officially closed.
More details are
George H Brown born 1895
Eliza Collinson (Brown)1898
Arthur Brown 1924
Eliza will be Eliza Brown, her surname having later been altered to Collinson.
So George and John should be your Brown brothers, still living in Salford, just like their sister Annie.
I too think it quite possible that Annie the mother reverted to the Brown name and, if so, that probably won't help in finding her death!
Unless she hitched up with somebody else of course!
John
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That would be Annie’s son George Harry Brown who married Eliza Burgess in 1920 (unconfirmed). After George’s death in 1945, Eliza remarried to Albert Collonson (unconfirmed). Arthur was second son. Is John living with George Harry? Does John have a wife?
I would bet that Annie the mother hitched up with someone else.
Thank you.
Peggy
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Hi
They are all at the same address in 1939. I don't think there is anything to indicate that John is married!
Yes, you are right, George Harry Brown married Eliza Burgess, 22 May 1920, Christ Church, Salford.
Free image on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C3MJ-2S87-4
Residence 16 Rumford Street.
Now if we had some electoral registers to look at, then it might help considerably. But sadly we don't.
John
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Hi..
Freebmd does have a death for George Harry Brown Dec 1919 Salford age 29.
Tazzie
***** adding to my previous post ******
I was reading back through the posts to see if we had missed anything and the above is a mistake on my part .... The death should be 1899 not 1919 so would make him born in 1870.
Sorry. :'(
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Deceased Online free index has a burial of George Harry Brown, 18 November 1899
Location "Greater Manchester"
I believe it was at Weaste Cemetery.
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After George’s death in 1945, Eliza remarried to Albert Collonson (unconfirmed). Arthur was second son.
Sadly George and Arthur died within a couple of days of each other
Manchester Evening News, 17 April 1945
BROWN.—On April 15, suddenly. In hospital, GEORGE HARRY, beloved husband of Eliza BROWN, aged 50. At rest.—2, Windsor Terrace, Salford 5. Service Christ Church, 3 p.m. Interment Weaste Cemetery, ? p.m., Thursday. Inq. Pendleton Co-op. Society....
Manchester Evening News, 18 April 1945
On 17th Inst., in hospital, ARTHUR, beloved son of Eliza BROWN and the late George Harry, age 20. At rest. Service Christ Church, ? p.m. Interment Weaste Cemetery, 3 p.m. to-morrow (Thursday).—2, Windsor Terrace, Salford 5. Inq. Pendleton Co-op.
I only have the transcript from BNA, which is OCR generated, best I can do.
Extremely sad.
From deceased online free index, both George and Arthur were buried 19 April at Weaste. Probably together, there is one other in the grave.
So, if it is confirmed that Annie died in the Salford area, Weaste is certainly one place to look for a burial.
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Thanks again, everyone. You are great. I don't find Weaste Cemetery on findagrave, and of the ones on findagrave, I don't find any of these Browns. However, the cemeteries are from 6% to 25% photographed so they might be in one of them.
As for Weaste, I googled it and there is an email address to send enquiries, so will try that. Good to have a "target" cemetery and maybe they have mother Annie there.
Peggy
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My email regarding burials in Weaste Cemetery will get a response within 3 working days.
Peggy
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I see on another tree online that John Edward Brown married Frances Thornhill in 1941 in Salford - don't have exact date. And that he died 1965.
Peggy
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Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1954
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Year Church / Register Office
BROWN Eliza Burgess COLLINSON Albert 1954 Salford Register Office or Registrar Attended
and her death - dob matches that of the 1939 register
Deaths 1984 (87%)
COLLINSON ELIZA 7OC1898 SALFORD 39 976
probate says died 15th October at 11 Lancaster Ldg, Lancaster Road Salford
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Thank you lancsann. I will document that.
Peggy
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"That would be Annie’s son George Harry Brown who married Eliza Burgess in 1920 (unconfirmed)."
Marriage: 22 May 1920 Christ Church, Salford, Lancashire, England
George Harry Brown - 25, Labourer, Bachelor, 16 Rumford St.
Eliza Burgess - 21, Hooker, Spinster, 17 Bright St.
Groom's Father: George Harry Brown, (Deceased), Copper Smith
Bride's Father: Thomas Burgess, (Deceased), Drainer
Witness: Thomas Marsden; Florence Marsden
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Thanks again, lancsann. It is much appreciated.
Peggy
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Marriage: 22 May 1920 Christ Church, Salford, Lancashire, England
George Harry Brown - 25, Labourer, Bachelor, 16 Rumford St.
Eliza Burgess - 21, Hooker, Spinster, 17 Bright St.
Groom's Father: George Harry Brown, (Deceased), Copper Smith
Bride's Father: Thomas Burgess, (Deceased), Drainer
Witness: Thomas Marsden; Florence Marsden
For the image, see the link I gave in Reply #51
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Thank you John. It is great to see the actual image and to have a copy for my files. You have contributed so much regarding this family.
I have had a reply regarding Weaste cemetery and they cannot add to what I can find online due to COVID complications but they did suggest a couple alternatives.
Peggy
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Is there any way to find out if a marriage has been annuled in 1906 or 1907 i.e. Ellen Ward who was only 16 when married to Robert Bernard Keen?
Peggy
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Hello again,
I have learned that there is no proof that Annie died in 1932. Perhaps she was still alive for 1939 registers. I don't know how to put in her date of birth, June 17, 1870, to see if she pops up. Can anyone help with that? Thank you.
Peggy
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I did find the correct family in 1939. However, there are two blocked persons and I have no idea who is blocked. I also wrote to Salford Registrar so will see what happens.
Peggy
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I ordered the death certificate for Ann Johnston who died in 1939 in Salford, age 68. Right age to be Annie who was born 1870, right area. However, when I got the certificate, Ann was 78 so not the right person. I have written to GRO regarding the difference in age on their index and the age on the certificate. Told them I would not have ordered it if it said age 78 on their index. Said I shouldn't have to pay. I don't expect to get anywhere cause that's the way they are. But waiting for a reply.
Peggy
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Hi.
On freebmd the age is 78 and GRO is having an update so I cannot look there.
Tazzie
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I went back in to doublecheck Ann’s entry in 1939 and it now says age 78. I am sure it said 68 when I ordered as I was thinking that is right age, right place although I did wonder about forename being Ann instead of Annie and last name being Johnston as it was expected to be likely Brown at time of death.
Peggy
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I have written to the Salford Local History Museum but the staff are furloughed while the Covid lockdown is in effect.
Peggy
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Two items. Firstly, GRO is not prepared to give me any refund for the death certificate of Ann Johnston, age 78, in June 1939. I am still sure that it used to say age 68 in the index. Oh well,
Secondly, I now have the will of Robert Brown who died Jan 10, 1979, naming only his wife Amelia and his son Bryan Brown. So not 100% sure it is the correct Robert Brown, but should be if we have the correct dob, as per " there is a death in 1979 March qtr BROWN, Robert dob 20 Sept 1906, Salford 39 1104" .[/u]
Would anyone have access to an obituary for a Robert Brown who died Jan 10, 1979 at 328 Ribbleton Lane, Ribbleton, Preston, Lancashire?
Thank you
Peggy
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I have now ordered the birth certificate for Robert Brown, born Sept 20, 1906 to see who the parents are, particularly mother. Is anyone able to find a marriage for a Robert Brown to an Amelia (as per will) to see the parent's names? If Robert born 1906, marriage possibly abt 1930.
thanks for any help.
Peggy
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I now have the birth certificate for Robert Brown born Sept 20, 1906 and it seems to be the correct Robert, with mother Annie Brown, formerly Johnson, a laundress of 7 Hatherton Street. What puzzles me is that the address of Robert is 90 Eccles New Road, Salford, and the address of the informant, mother, Annie Brown is also 90 Eccles New Road. So why does it say Annie is a laundress of 7 Hatherton Street? Is that where she works?
I looked back at the 1901 census to see Annie's address in 1901 and it is 21 Hampson Street, North Salford. But I can't make out her place of birth. Can anyone help me with that? It is different than what is given in 1911 which is Coagh, Ireland.
thanks
Peggy
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Ireland, Belfast
(It is Back Hampson Street)
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Looking at 1901, I think 90 New Eccles street is the workhouse. So I would think that is where she had Robert and where she was at the time she registered the birth. But normally at the other address.
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Thank you Mckha489 for your continued help. What you say makes sense.
Peggy
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Thanks Mckha489, I did notice dob for George Harry Brown on the 1911. I prev. had Apr 19, 1895 in Manchester. I will have to pursue that, as best I can.
At the moment, I am looking for the marriage of Robert Brown to Florence Farmer aka Beeley in 1949. A descendant of Annie's has Florence as wife for Robert whereas the will that I found for Robert with dod of Jan 10, 1979 has wife Amelia. What a difficult family to research. Descendant also had dod for Robert as Dec 1972 in Salford but both 1972 and 1979 are missing on the online index for gro.gov.uk. I would love to find an obituary for Robert naming relatives. Whether Robert died in 1972 or 1979, he was the last sibling to die. Can't be sure if his marriage or his death is under Keen or Brown but I have been looking under Brown as per birth record.
Peggy
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Descendant also had dod for Robert as Dec 1972 in Salford but both 1972 and 1979 are missing on the online index for gro.gov.uk.
Peggy
Searched 4th quarter 1972 and 1st quarter 1973. on FreeBMD. There are only four Robert Brown deathsin Lancashire and none at all in Salford. None of the four fit.
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www.freebmd.org.uk has a
Robert Brown
DOB 20.09.1906
Death registered March Q 1979
Reg District Salford
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Is the will you have of a Robert Brown whose address is in Preston? If yes that person did die in the March Q of 1979 registered Preston but their birthdate is 11 Dec 1902.
Your Robert would appear to be the one I have posted above this.
Have you contacted the tree owner on Ancestry with the Salford Robert marrying Florence? There are possible descendants there.
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Yes, the will that I have is for a Robert who died in Preston on Jan 10, 1979. Now obvious that it is the wrong Robert, especially now that you have his dob as Dec 11, 1902. I just went back in and looked for a will for another Robert who died 1979 and checked all the way to 1982. Perhaps he didn't have a will or perhaps it was not probated until after 1982.
Yes, I have written to the owner of the Burgess-Brown tree and am awaiting a reply. The info about Florence Farmer is new to the tree.
Thank you Gibel for the dob of the Robert Brown who died in Preston.
Peggy
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Robert Brown
DOB 20.09.1906
Death registered March Q 1979
Reg District Salford
Could this be him?
Burial on deceased online free index
Robert Brown, 23 February 1979, Greater Manchester
Date of death 18 February
One other in grave.
Looks to me to be buried at Agecroft Cemetery.
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Very much speculation...
A marriage in Sep 1933, Salford 8d 1111
Robert Brown
+
Frances Thornhill
Salford Register Office or Registrar Attended (Lancashire BMD)
A birth reg
THORNHILL, FRANCES
Mother's Maiden Surname: HUDSON
GRO Reference: 1910 J Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 159
Free index to 1911 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW1Q-ZZN
An army record for Alfred Thornhill, her father.
Says Frances born 24.4.1910
Pop that date into the 1939 Register free index
Frances Brown, b 1910, in Salford C.B., Lancashire
Address 50 Walmer Street, Bury
But is husband there? We are not allowed to do look ups in that!
Death
June qtr 1975 Salford 39 0926
Brown, Frances
d-o-b 24 April 1910
She seems to have been buried 30 May 1975, G Manchester
died 23 May
One other in grave
I think again it is at Agecroft.
Could the other person be her husband, Robert Brown?
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More speculation!
A birth
Dec 1933 Salford 8d 417
Brown, Robert B.
mother Thornhill
Death in 2012 from the new GRO death index
BROWN, ROBERT BERNARD
Year of Birth: 1933
GRO Reference: DOR Q4/2012 in Salford (011-1B) Entry Number 507423915
Ancestry have their own England and Wales, Death Index, 1989-2019
Robert Bernard Brown
Birth Date 30 Nov 1933
Death Date 6 Oct 2012
Last Residence Salford, Lancashire.
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I am pretty confident that Robert was born Sept 20, 1906. Agecroft Cemetery seems a likely location. So will look into burial Feb 23, 1979 as well as other info provided. I don't think his wife was Frances Thornhill but am not ruling it out at this point. That birth of Robert Bernard Brown looks inviting, since Annie was with Robert Bernard Keen in 1911. Thanks for everyone's help.
Peggy
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I thought it looked promising :(
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By a strange coincidence, I had Robert's brother John Edward married to a Frances Thornhill in 1941.
But that marriage doesn't fit the rest of the family history. Perhaps the brothers wives got mixed up.
Peggy
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Not forgetting
Secondly, I now have the will of Robert Brown who died Jan 10, 1979, naming only his wife Amelia and his son Bryan Brown.
I can’t see one with a Farmer or Beeley mother
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Now found
Births Dec 1931
Brown Bryan D Farmer Cannock 6b 671. wrong area??
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Hello Mckha439. You probably do have the correct Bryan but it seems that he is not connected to the Robert Brown that we are TRYING to sort out.
Getting back to Robert Brown and his brother John Edward (I have ordered John's birth certificate and should get in a few days) - anyway, family story is that John married Robert's wife's widowed sister (this is new information) so perhaps if Robert married a Thornhill, then so did John, but her first name would not also be Frances. And I have John's wife's dod as May 30, 1975 which is perhaps her burial date as you found, jonw65 and burial place as Agecourt. Hmmm. Maybe we are onto something here.
Robert Bernard Brown's birth record should have his mother's first name.
Wild speculation - I see a Frances Hudson on that 1911 census that you sent the link for. If she first married a Thornhill (Frances' brother) and then John Brown, John's wife would also be Frances Thornhill and the relationship to Robert's wife would be widowed sister-in-law, not widowed sister. But she would be abt 10 yr. older than John. Oh dear, I think I am getting a headache.
Peggy
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Is this the marriage you are referring to?
March 1941 Salford 8d 1119
Brown, John E. - spouse Thornhill
Thornhill, Frances - spouse Brown
(Salford Register Office or Registrar Attended)
The free index to the 1939 Register has a Frances Brown (Thornhill) b 1914, living in Chorley, could that be her?
Also in the free index
Birth, March 1939 Salford 8d 429
Thornhill, George E
mother Lee
Marriage, June 1934 Salford 8d 845
Lee / Leigh, Frances - spouse Thornhill
Thornhill, George - spouse Lee / Leigh
There was a George Thornhill age 2 in that Hudson / Thornhill family in 1911, a brother of Frances
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW1Q-ZZF
George's date of birth from the father's army record was 26.4.1908
Death
June 1940 Salford 8d 779
Thornhill, George
age 32
Possible death of Frances Brown/Thornhill, nee Lee?
August 1996 Salford
Frances Brown
d-o-b 5 January 1914
Could this all be coming together somehow? :-\
Robert marries Frances Thornhill
John Edward marries the widow of Frances's brother George.
Possible!
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Pop that date into the 1939 Register free index
Frances Brown, b 1910, in Salford C.B., Lancashire
Address 50 Walmer Street, Bury
And putting George's date of birth in
Brings up
George Thornhill, b 1908, in Salford C.B.
address 53 Walmer Street, Bury
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George Thornhill buried 1 June 1940, Greater Manchester
Cemetery appears to be Weaste
Three others in grave
Frances Brown buried 28 August 1996, Greater Manchester
Date of death 17 August 1996
Same cemetery (Weaste)
Three others in grave
Was she buried with George?
ADDED
George Edward Thornhill
Died August 1991, Salford
d-o-b 10 January 1939
Died 6 Aug 1991,
Buried 15 Aug 1991
At Weaste / three others in grave
Do you have a death for John Edward Brown?
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You've done it, jonw65! This all fits the family story perfectly. So the brothers did both marry a Frances Thornhill. I had that John's wife Frances was born 1915 in Barton, Lancashire, which is fairly close to correct date of Jan 5, 1914. But I mistakenly had the dod of John's wife as 1975 which is the dod of Robert's wife. I've now straightened that out.
I had John's dod as 1965 but couldn't find it. It looks like perhaps Frances Lee/Thornhill/Brown is buried with George and maybe their son George Edward, even maybe John Edward Brown if there are 4 buried together.
The rest of the story was that the brothers fell out after John married who we now know was George's widow, as it was felt that she remarried too soon - George Thornhill died June 1940, Frances remarried to John Mar 1941. Now if we had George Edward's obit, we might find living relatives.
John reportedly worked for Thomson Leng publishers in Salford before his death. I was trying to research that. Apparently, John Leng and D.C. Thomson merged businesses but I didn't find the names of employees.
So we have made wonderful progress on Annie's children, thanks to all of you, but still haven't found Annie's death probably between 1932-1944. Or Robert Bernard Keen possibly abt 1935.
Thanks again so very much.
Peggy
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Hi Peggy
It is a bit weird, two Frances Thornhills! Sorry if there was a falling out, hope it was temporary (they often are)
I think the death of John Edward could be important somehow.
I may have an idea (a theory is better perhaps!) about what happened to Annie :-\
But it may be all wrong! That would spoilt things!
So I don't know whether to post it (red herrings, wild goose chases, etc)
Then again the idea could be examined, disproved, put out of the way?
John
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OK, I'll post it, see what you think!
Is it just possible that Annie married as Brown to George Marsden in Salford 1917? :-\
Sep 1917 Salford 8d 198
George Marsden
+
Annie Brown
Interestingly, when George Harry Brown married Eliza Burgess in 1920, it was witnessed by Thomas Marsden and Florence Marsden
It's that marriage image again (sorry!)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C3MJ-2S87-4
I did have a candidate for George Marsden, his wife Hannah Bertha died in 1915. And he had a daughter Florence (but not a son Thomas!) However I have found a likely marriage for Florence online, and the signature looks different.
So I leave George's possible identity hanging for a bit!
Anyway, there is a death
Sep 1936 Salford 8d 318
Marsden, Annie
age 66
Burial of Annie Marsden, 16 September 1936, Greater Manchester
Cemetery is Weaste
Says one other in grave
Who is that other person? George Marsden? Someone else, related or not?
I do have a suspicion that it might be a John Edward Brown buried with her. The death of your JEB is a bit of a puzzle, nothing much for him in Salford, so I have been looking at the free burial index on Deceased Online for clues. Yes, John Edward might be buried with Frances, but he might not.
There is a John Edward Brown buried Greater Manchester, I believe at Weaste, 11 June 1959, date of death 6 June 1959.
It says there is one other person in that grave.
So which death is that burial for? There are two plain Johns who died in Lancashire or Cheshire that quarter (Leigh, St Helens) and only one John E, who does happen to match yours on age (which is why I was interested)
June 1959 Wirral 10a 681
Brown, John E.
age 56
The new GRO death index does not extend as far as 1959, so don't have full name. It seems that two of those who have the same GRO ref (are on same page on FreeBMD) died in early June. Could your John have died out of area for some reason?
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You know what, jonw65, you just might be right about Annie. Her age at death is perfect to be the elusive Annie. And the year of death is in the right timeframe. Also, maybe JEB is buried with her. I don't know where Wirral is. Perhaps John travelled in his job with Thomson Leng. The age is right for JEB, born 1902.
On someone's tree, I found that Eliza Burgess (George Harry's wife) had parents Thomas Burgess and Emily Marsden. Maybe Emily Marsden had a brother Thomas. Confusing.
The descendant that I have been talking to said that it was believed that Annie never legally married Robert Bernard Keen, but she never mentioned a Marsden. However, doesn't mean that Annie did not marry a Marsden. I guess the marriage record would give whether Annie Brown was a widow or not, and if we are lucky, her age (instead of just "full age") and witnesses might be useful.
Thanks for throwing this out there for consideration.
Peggy
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Hi
Well I am now looking at a family tree on ancestry ( I don't usually do this of course!)
According to which a brother of Emily Marsden (mother of Eliza Burgess) was George, in fact the very George I mentioned before, with the wife Hannah Bertha (married Hull 1893)
I can't say whether they have the right George later, but anyway, we are then both meaning the one who seems to have been widowed in 1915.
That one did have rather a large family in the census, and I don't know where Thomas comes in
Daughter Florence is said to have married George Frank Hammond in 1926, but her age is wrong, and her father George is a wood turner on the cert.
I thought the marriage for Florence might be to Ernest Cordwell at Weaste in 1925, age 25, father George a Builder's Labourer (which all matches the last census)
I am not convinced her signature looks so much like that of the witness on George Harry's marriage though (perhaps it changed?)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-YSN5-LGL
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Are you able to bring up Annie's marriage, like you did Florence's? Or do I have to order? If Annie remarried to Marsden, that would explain why we couldn't find her death under Johnston or Johnson or Brown or Keen.
We need some obits of someone, Annie or John Edward or Robert - I am a great believer in obits.
Annie supposedly had 2 older sisters, Margaret and Bessie. Not that I have ever found them. They would have been born in Ireland of course, like Annie who was born in Urbal/Urble, Coagh, Co. Tyrone in 1870. Sisters used to visit Annie in Salford.
Onwards, to looking for Annie's remarriage.
Peggy
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Hi
Lancashire BMD says Salford Register Office or Registrar Attended
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/index.php
Which means not at a parish church, quite possibly at a register office.
Note that it gives no indication of another surname for the Annie Brown who married George Marsden in 1917.
These local indexes will often index the bride under her father's surname, if different, thus enabling us to pick up widows. But not always!
Have you considered the option of using deceased online? I don't have any credits (I don't work for them either!) but they seem to be reasonable compared to some sites, going pay per view it might cost a couple of pounds for a scan of a burial register, and then perhaps for a grave register to see if that determines who else is buried with them?
It could give you an idea of how the land lies, and might reduce the chances of getting any wrong certificates?
John
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I don't know about deceased online. Is that exactly what it's called? Lancashire BMD doesn't have a death for Annie Marsden in 1936.
Peggy
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Hi
They are not complete unfortunately. Salford is not even in the drop down list of "regions" in their death indexes! So they haven't done them yet (something to look forward to!)
You can get a pdf of the death though from the GRO.
Yes, that is right, it has been useful to us on here before
https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch
John
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You are right - Annie Marsden who died 1936 is buried with John Edward Brown who died 1959. I would say that confirms their relationship.
Funnily enough, I have visited the site before as I had an account, much to my surprise. And get this, I had paid for Annie Marsden's burial before. Can't imagine why although it fits now.
So I guess next step is to get a PDF of the death if I can.
You are one clever guy.
Peggy
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Hi Peggy
That does sound very promising. Really pleased for you.
Hope you can confirm things.
Do let us know of any developments!
John
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Interestingly, when George Harry Brown married Eliza Burgess in 1920, it was witnessed by Thomas Marsden and Florence Marsden
Eliza's mother was a Marsden; Tom and Florence were her cousins.
There were many George Marsdens in Eliza's family.
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Were Tom and Florence cousins of Eliza or of Emily, her mother?
Peggy
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Excellent work! Looking forward to the marriage cert
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I have just received the death certificate for Annie Marsden who died Sept 11, 1936 and I would say it is definitely our Annie, nee Johnston/Johnson. Her permanent residence was 2A Kellet Street, Pendleton as was the residence of her son John Edward Brown, informant. Annie was the widow of George Marsden, Builder's laborer. That means that the online tree with George Marsden on, with daughter Florence born abt 1900, must have wrong dod for George. This is the same George who was previously married to Hannah Bertha Sanvidge.
I thank everyone for all their help in finding Annie and her family, including the two brothers, each married to a Frances Thornhill. Now if Annie only had an obit naming any of her relatives, it might fill in the blanks especially regarding any sisters that Annie might have. Or an obit for her son John Edward Brown who died June 6, 1959 at Liverpool Head Hospital although permanent residence was 37 Walmer Street, Salford. On his death record, it says place of death Liverpool Head Hospital, Caldy Manor, Caldy. I don't know why it says Caldy Manor - was the hospital in Caldy Manor?
Annie had a brother Joseph who lived in Belfast who died in 1938 so her obit might mention him, if there is an obit.
Thanks again
Peggy
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Hi Peggy
Excellent news, well done.
There are some references to Caldy Manor Hospital on the Wirral
Maybe not so many! Hints that it might have been for heart patients.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=989&page=9
Might be a care home now?
Obits are not so easy to come by, death notices and funeral reports possibly. Will keep a look out.
John
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Thank you John.
Peggy
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Hi Peggy,
This is a different George Marsden. He'll be difficult to track down because it was a very common name (there are ten of them in my tree!).
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Thanks sfir. So I take it, you don’t have any of them married to Annie. If I may ask, do you have a dod for George who was married to Hannah Bertha? Perhaps I have to order Annie’s marriage record.
Peggy
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A bit of confirmation that the Florence Marsden who married Ernest Cordwell at Weaste in 1925 was the daughter of the George married to Hannah Bertha (the builder's labourer born Singleton/Blackpool) who we discussed before.
Address was 53 Manchester Street, and you can do a free address search of the 1939 register, and the free results gives us Stanley Marsden born 1909 (Margaret Marsden is also on this record)
Florence's youngest brother in the 1911 census free index was Stanley.
So it's interesting there were still family at the same address in 1939.
Another son of George, Joseph Alexander, married in 1928, residence 53 Manchester Street, father George a Scaffolder.
The Manchester, Salford, Directory 1929 has George Marsden at 53 Manchester Street.
I think an elder son was a George William, but it seems reasonable to assume that George was alive then and living at that address.
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May do a quick look at some George Marsden deaths! Were any of them Annie's husband?
Here's one
June qtr 1919, Salford, George Henry Marsden, age 64
Buried 28 June 1919 at Weaste
Seems to have married Emma Etta Weir in 1901. Son Harry married in 1925, father George Henry Marsden, (deceased), Labourer. Sister Dorothy a witness.
Widow Emma Etta Marsden, father John Weir, married in Salford in 1922
RULED OUT :)
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An interesting one!
March qtr 1926, Salford, George Dyson Marsden, age 55.
Someone has him in a tree married to a Huntbach, but they have the wrong George (oh dear!)
Birth registered in Barton upon Irwell, June 1870, mother Dyson
A baptism for him, 3 August 1870, Barton Wesleyan Methodist, Barton Road.
Parents George and Mary
Born 24 May 1870
Free index to 1911 has him boarding in Pembrokeshire, age 40, still single
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7JR-387
Index of First World War Mercantile Marine Medals and the British War Medal
George Dyson Marsden
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8061284
Looking at the card via their image viewer
Issued at Victoria Dks, London
An address written there, 50 High St, Neyland, Pem. Which is similar to 1911
George D Marsden, buried 6 January 1926 with two others, probably a Salford area cemetery (not Weaste)
Unlikely.
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Sep 1929, Salford, George Marsden, age 68
Seems to be buried at Philips Park, nonconformist section, 11 Sep 1929
Buried with him is Harriet Marsden, 24 Feb 1934
Looks like them in Pendleton, free index to 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWBB-46T
He is in that 1929 directory, George Marsden, beetler, 23 Nansen st. Seedley
RULED OUT
There is also a death of a George Marsden in Ashton under Lyne in Dec 1929, age 54
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I won't go through the rest!
Changing tack, if Annie was married to the George Marsden whose wife Hannah Bertha died 1915 (not saying she was, only if), and if he died before her, I have found one possibility that just might be him(?)
This is likely to be his baptism, 12 April 1874, Singleton
Parents John and Sarah Ann, father a Joiner
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYQV-TM
Birth reg
MARSDEN, GEORGE
Mother's Maiden Surname: GRIBBIN
GRO Reference: 1874 J Quarter in FYLDE Volume 08E Page 697
So the death is this one
March 1932 Barton upon Irwell 8c 768
Marsden, George
age 57
The age on death could be just about right, depends on his exact date of birth
Burial likely to be
George Marsden, 17 March 1932, Greater Manchester
Cemetery is Weaste
10 others in grave.
Hannah Bertha was buried at Weaste, doesn't say that anybody is buried with her. It seems the likeliest place for George to be buried.
Barton upon Irwell RD details
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/barton%20upon%20irwell.html
Joseph Henry Beech is one of those with the same GRO ref. There is a probate record and he died at the Davyhulme Cottage Hospital, Manchester, 15 March 1932.
Confirms that the death of George was likely in March, and gives an idea of location (not necessarily at the exact same place of course!)
Sadly there are no Manchester newspapers on BNA for 1932.
Apologies if this is the wrong George (for both Annie, and for the HB family!)
Joh
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I think you just might be right, John. I paid for the burial register scan for this George who was buried 17 March 1932 but not sure yet if I am any the wiser. George was 57 and died at Park Hospital, Davyhulme. I don't recognise any names of the others buried in that grave at Weaste which include Eric McCabe, Alan Currie, Walter Davies,Kenneth Shelton, May Berry, Mary Sappa, James Henry Brown, Sarah Clough, Jessie Shaw, Margaret Carroll (same burial date) and George.
I think I must order the marriage record for Annie and George in 1917.
thanks for all your wonderful Help.And for the info about Florence Marsden's marriage.
Peggy
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I ordered the death certificate for George Marsden who was buried Mar 17, 1932. We shall see!!
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Good luck!
I am a bit nervous, it is speculative. But a hospital death does mean at least that it could be the right man (Annie's husband, HB's husband, or both!)
Will keep fingers crossed.
John
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It will be interesting to see the death certificate, due Dec 10, but usually arrives a day or so early. I suspect that even if we found the right George, Annie and George were not together. Her grandson remembered Annie but not a step-grandfather, whether it be Robert Bernard Keen, who would not be with Annie when the grandson was born if she married George in 1917, or whether it be George. Her grandson had not met a step-grandfather.
I have been trying to find Annie and George together, in 1921 or 1931,but not sure when the last English census was taken. Both would be deceased before 1939.
Peggy
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Hi
That has been one of my doubts about George of 53 Manchester Street. It was quite a large family that he had, and if the Browns were joined up with it then probably you, or someone you know, would have had some knowledge of that fact (even if you didn't know exactly which family it was)
The 1921 census should be released in early 2022. It will be only on findmypast, and I expect that initially it will be some kind of pay per view and not included in their subs.
The 1931 census was sadly lost in a fire in WW2 (not as a result of enemy action, which somehow seems to make it worse)
I was going to say that we don't have any Salford electoral registers online, but in fact I now realise we do - on findmypast again. The answer may be there! I don't have access :(
Live as it happens!
Salford South Division is I think what we need. Loads of Annie Marsdens in the free index, which you can see if you are at least registered as a free member (like me!)
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/england-and-wales-electoral-registers-1920-1932
No way to tell who they are from the index.
There is another database on there, England & Wales, Electoral Registers 1832-1932. On this there are no names given in the results pages, and instead you get a link to the image. In the past it has picked up anything on the page (transcribed via optical character recognition I guess), so look for John Smith, and you not only get all of them, but any page hit where there is a John, and also a Smith on it. Not good!
It could be manipulated via quotation marks, keywords, and comparing the image number, but they seem to have taken the image numbers away.
Entering "Marsden George" in the surname box, and "Manchester Street" in the keyword box, it tells me there are no results. Taking off the quotation marks and it then says 28 results (but is it still reliable then?)
Put the quotations back, and forcing it against its will to give me some results (I mean click on no results) and there are actually 6.
Two for 1918, three for 1919 (spring and autumn) and one for 1923
I think there may be an extra George in there, son George William perhaps?
Then looking for "Marsden Annie" and "Manchester Street", there are 4 results (1918, 1919 x 2, spring and autumn, and 1923.
That makes sense with two electoral registers per year for a while from 1919. And it's picked her up for the same years. Encouraging.
Theoretically it means that there should be an Annie Marsden on a page where the OCR text machine has also picked up Manchester Street. But without seeing it I can't be 100% sure of course.
The 1920-32 database, better transcribed, no doubt will pick them up in every year wherever they were!
But using the keywords on the other one gives us hope that there was an Annie with George in Manchester Street.
They also have the 1933 Manchester + Salford directory on there, so a bit later than the one on ancestry. Again when you search the index the results give no names, only a link to an image.
EDIT Deleted the last bit, got it wrong!
John
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Now I'm picking up a possible Annie Marsden in Kellett Street in 1930.
Perhaps I've got it all wrong. Oh dear!
Eleanor Turner is there in the 20's and was listed at 2a in the 1929 directory.
If there had been no coronavirus I'd have been able to pop to the library (not at night of course!) and see it all.
I think best wait for that death cert! At least we now know the electorals are online. George Harry Brown is there every year in Salford South, 1920 to 1931, so Annie is there somewhere!
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Oh boy. This boggles my mind. I did try to find Annie and/or George but not really making progress. I don't have a subscription to findmypast either but I do have access to the Library Edition of Ancestry with its limited info. Didn't have any luck there either. I will wait until I get George's death record and proceed from there. You have certainly put a lot of effort into helping me and Annie's descendants and I do thank you profusely.
I wish one could pay for an individual record on findmypast but they want a minimum of a 3 month subscription. I tried to order Annie's marriage via Gro.gov.uk, but they don't seem to offer an online order for marriages with the option of receiving the certificate as a PDF which lessens the cost. I only see the option for births and deaths which I have used.
Thanks again. Oh, I have just seen your latest find for Annie. You are terrific. I will wait for death certificate now. It is strange that Annie's grandson didn't know a step-grandfather which makes me think Annie and George did not live together.
Peggy
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Hi
They occasionally have free weekends on there, so hopefully one way or another you will see them eventually.
You know, if it is the right George I think you may be right about a split between him and Annie.
I have been having one last play with the electoral registers 1832-1932 database, this time using as keywords some of the names nearest to George Marsden in Manchester Street from the 1929 Manchester/Salford directory.
Tittle, Sweeney, Holgate. Not so common names. And if Manchester Street sometimes went over two pages on the electoral register they are more likely to be on the same page.
I can get George Marsden up to 1930
But nothing gets Annie Marsden past 1923!
John
P.S. Ancestry are said to be adding more electoral registers this month. For eight places apparently. No idea where, but hopefully lots of us will find at least one of them useful!
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This morning, I received the death certificate for George Marsden. He died Mar 10, 1932 due to being accidently run down by a car. He was age 57 and he lived at 53 Manchester Street, Builder's laborer, which, due to address, I would say makes him the husband of Hannah Bertha who died 1915. Whether he was the husband of Annie is unknown. There is no mention of any relationship and the informant was R.S. Lodger, Coroner, after inquests held Mar 11 and Mar 16. Due to his occupation as Builder's laborer, he might be the husband of Annie, as her George Marsden was a builder's laborer. Due to the accidental death, it might be in the newspaper, but BNA does not have newspapers from 1932, as per John's earlier reply.
Oh dear, now what?
Peggy
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Hi Peggy
Thanks for letting us know!
It certainly does clear up the death of the much discussed George of Manchester Street, so it will no doubt be of interest to a good few people!
How sad that he died in an accident, and it is an unexpected twist. I too feel it might have been reported in the newspapers. Why they don't fill in those gaps on BNA I do not know. I wonder if the inquest details survive?
I haven't come across another George who was a builder's labourer, but it is of course possible there was one. Where does it leave us? Still guessing! It does seem he might have been Annie's husband, we just need a bit of proof.
We'll get there!
John
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I checked for a will for George for several years after his death, up to 1938, but didn't find one on gov.uk.
Peggy
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I don't have much luck with wills in my family. Most people didn't make one, and I guess George wasn't expecting to die then anyway. No administration either.
John
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I have written to the Salford community leisure centre which houses the local history library. If it is open now I am hoping they will have copies of any newspaper articles regarding George Marsden’s death in 1932.
Peggy
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I had a reply from the Salford Community Leisure Centre asking me to write to the Local History Library which I did and got an automated reply asking me to write to the Salford Community Leisure Centre so I guess I'll get a reply from someone when things get back in operation.
Peggy
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Hi
Going round in circles!
I think it would be good to find out if there really was an Annie Marsden living with George Marsden at 53 Manchester Street in Salford around 1921-1925 or 26, and if there was, if she stopped appearing there sometime during that period.
Is it worth asking for a look up during the next few days on here?
John
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I think we have now found the proof that the George Marsden who lived on 53 Manchester St. is the same George who was Annie Brown’s husband. Annie is living there in 1923 with her son John Edward Brown. In 1925, George is with his son Frank from his first marriage to Hannah Bertha Sanvidge. Yahoo! This info resulted from my lookup request on this site.
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Electoral Rolls
53 Manchester Street
1923
John Edward Brown
Annie Marsden
George Marsden
1924
John Edward Brown
George Marsden
1925
Frank Marsden
George Marsden
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More Electoral Rolls showing George continuing to live with his children from his first marriage and Annie living elsewhere with her two sons. I have yet to figure out if there is any family connection between Eliza Jones and Annie.
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1930
30 Kellett Street
John Edward Brown
Eliza Jones
Annie Marsden
1931
30 Kellett Street
Annie Brown
Robert Brown
John Edward Brown
Eliza Jones
Records online only up to 1931
1930/31 at 2a Kellett Street is Turner family(this is address of Annie when she died).
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More George at No 53
1926 with Frank Marsden and Ernest Cordwell
1927 as 1926 plus Joseph Alexander Marsden
1928 as 1927
1929 with Frank Marsden and Ernest and Florence Cordwell
1930 with Joseph Alexander and Sarah Ellen Marsden
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Hi Peggy
Wow! What great news. I am thrilled for you.
It is so good to have it confirmed, and your suspicions that there was a split between George and Annie have also proved to be correct. Lots to think about, and there is some sadness about it as well, also thinking of George's untimely death.
Seen your look up request, great response, a big thanks to the wonderful Comberton from me as well.
There's only one big mystery left, what happened to Robert Bernard Keen! I think that one can wait!
John
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yes, I owe so much to all the kind people who helped me. I had so little information to work with at the start. I am told that Robert Bernard Keen died about 1935 but that may be a guesstimate.
Thanks again, everyone.
Peggy
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This morning, I received the Administration of Estate for Alan Brown, grandson to Annie. Alan died July 15,1957 in Crumpsall Hospital, Manchester. His estate was administered in 1958 and the only person mentioned was his widow Pamela Jane nee Marsden who remarried to Miles Powell Hinchliffe in 1961. Pamela Jane died Aug 29, 2015 in Scotland but I don't know what took her there, as Miles died 2014 in Poulton-le-Fylde, Lancashire.
I looked for John Edward's will in 1959 on gov.uk but didn't find one that year or in several years following. His widow Frances nee Lee/Leigh formerly Thornhill lived until Aug 17, 1996. I don't know if they had children and thought the will might reveal that.
So I am still waiting for the marriage record of Annie Brown to George Marsden in 1917 which is to be mailed Dec 18 but might take a couple weeks after that to get to me in Canada.
Peggy
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To all my wonderful helpers, I thought that I should share that today I received the marriage record of George Marsden to Annie Brown. It is the correct couple!!! They married on Sept 15,1917 at the Register Office in the District of Salford. George is a widower (correct), Annie is a widow (correct). George is a journeyman joiner and Annie's father Andrew Johnson (correct) is a joiner (correct). Joiner and carpenter are the same. Annie is a laundress (correct). George's father is John (correct) who is deceased in 1917. I have John's death as 1893. Annie's father Andrew is also deceased (he died in 1912). Witnesses are Emily Burgess who is George's sister Emily nee Marsden. Other witness is A. G. Payn who I don't know. Wondering if it might be one of Annie's elusive and unconfirmed sister's husbands.
So there you have it. Thanks Jon.
Peggy