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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: grantleydawn on Tuesday 01 September 20 03:24 BST (UK)

Title: 1450 latin will - COMPLETED
Post by: grantleydawn on Tuesday 01 September 20 03:24 BST (UK)
I am trying to interpret a 1450 Will and I was hoping someone could help me please. In particular the children underlined in red. I am hoping the boy is Radulphus and the girl is Margarete.
The other part that I canít crack is the repetitive wording for each child, that follows the word meo.
Grantley

line 1
lego eidum Alicie uxor mee
line 2

line 3
lego Johnnes filio meo . . . .  xj li xiij s iiij d et . . . . C marcs? Itm lego Thome filio meo . . . .
line 4
. . . . Itm Radís filio meo . . . . x iiij s & . . . . C marcas
line 5
Itm lego Alicie filie mee . . . . x iiij s et . . . . libras It lego Margarete filie mee in
Title: Re: 1450 latin will
Post by: horselydown86 on Tuesday 01 September 20 07:09 BST (UK)
The boy is Rad(ulph)o as it should be - the dative ending meaning to Ralph.

The girl's name is a little trickier.  It ends _garete.  It appears to begin with an M which possibly has an upward sweep indicating that -ar- is contracted.  However then there's an apparent a before the g.  Also the writer contracts the same letters differently in m(ar)c(as).

If that apparent upward sweep is not a contraction mark, then it's probably Magarete.

Regarding the phrase, I think it is (to take Alice as the clearest example):

...i(n) Jocalib(us) de [plate?/place?] x m(ar)c(as) et i(n) moneta Centu(m) libras...


I can't make a sensible translation of the Jocalibus de [plate?/place?] and internet searches don't give a match.  I will be interested to see Bookbox's interpretation.
Title: Re: 1450 latin will
Post by: grantleydawn on Tuesday 01 September 20 07:37 BST (UK)
Thank you.

I can now see that he appears to be giving a value, split between jewels and money. Something that I hadn't considered.

Thanks again, regards Grantley
Title: Re: 1450 latin will
Post by: Bookbox on Tuesday 01 September 20 13:38 BST (UK)
I can't make a sensible translation of the Jocalibus de [plate?/place?] and internet searches don't give a match.  I will be interested to see Bookbox's interpretation.

I think the sense is as you have it, and I canít usefully add much.

The actual wording may be ... in Jocalibus de plate. Jocale can be a jewel or any other precious object; one meaning for plata is Ďprecious metalí.
Title: Re: 1450 latin will
Post by: horselydown86 on Tuesday 01 September 20 16:17 BST (UK)
Thanks, Bookbox.  I usually use Eileen Gooder's book and the online William Whitaker's Words, but neither recognizes Jocale/Jocalibus or plata/plate.

ADDED:

I should have said:   ...recognizes those meanings of Jocale/Jocalibus or plata/plate.
Title: Re: 1450 latin will
Post by: Bookbox on Tuesday 01 September 20 16:36 BST (UK)
Also highly recommended:
R. E. Latham, Revised Medieval Latin Word-List (Oxford University Press, 1965)

Pricey, but used copies are often available online.
Title: Re: 1450 latin will
Post by: arthurk on Tuesday 01 September 20 17:09 BST (UK)
I use The Record Interpreter by C.T. Martin, first published in 1898 - I picked up a secondhand copy of a later edition at a FH fair some years ago.

This has both jocale (a jewel) and plata (a flat piece of unwrought metal, ingot).

(Sorry I didn't mention this earlier - I was fixated on it being a place, and only looked in the place names section.  :-[)
Title: Re: 1450 latin will
Post by: horselydown86 on Tuesday 01 September 20 17:14 BST (UK)
Thank you both.  I shall keep a lookout...
Title: Re: 1450 latin will
Post by: horselydown86 on Tuesday 01 September 20 20:06 BST (UK)
I use The Record Interpreter by C.T. Martin, first published in 1898 - I picked up a secondhand copy of a later edition at a FH fair some years ago.

This book is free online:     https://archive.org/details/recordinterprete00martiala/page/n359/mode/2up
Title: Re: 1450 latin will
Post by: Bookbox on Tuesday 01 September 20 20:11 BST (UK)
I use The Record Interpreter by C.T. Martin, first published in 1898 - I picked up a secondhand copy of a later edition at a FH fair some years ago.

This book is free online:     https://archive.org/details/recordinterprete00martiala/page/n359/mode/2up

Yes! I'd forgotten that, thank you. (Don't you EVER sleep?)
Title: Re: 1450 latin will
Post by: horselydown86 on Tuesday 01 September 20 20:19 BST (UK)
Just off to bed now.  Good night to all.
Title: Re: 1450 latin will
Post by: grantleydawn on Tuesday 01 September 20 23:38 BST (UK)
Excellent.

Thank you everyone for your help.

Regards
Grantley