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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: darianb on Thursday 03 September 20 21:08 BST (UK)

Title: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: darianb on Thursday 03 September 20 21:08 BST (UK)
Hi everyone, I'm a bit stuck on a few words on the marriage registration below. The marriage is between John Craig and Nancy Moore. Fathers are John Craig and Andrew Moore. I can decipher most of it but I can't make out 1. Residence (assume it's somewhere near Belfast), 2. Rank of Father (Merchant and ???), 3. the witnesses - is that James Moore? Someone Craig? I can upload a larger version if this one is too small.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have a feeling I'm on the verge of knocking down a very old brick wall.

Thanks
Darian
Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: shanreagh on Thursday 03 September 20 21:25 BST (UK)
Residence looks like Frenchpark/farm and Gregan(?)  Randalstown.

The occupation looks as though Private has been crossed out and 'Died' written in. 

Witnesses look like

James Moore and E M Craig
Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: dublin1850 on Thursday 03 September 20 21:28 BST (UK)
Frenchpark.
Gragan (probably now Groggan), Randalstown.


Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: heywood on Thursday 03 September 20 21:29 BST (UK)
It looks like Frenchpark to me. I only know of one in Roscommon though.

The other looks to be Gragan, Randalstown.

Occupation  ??? private

Witnesses James Moore and M R Craig
Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: heywood on Thursday 03 September 20 21:32 BST (UK)
This one is not quite the same - easier to read but no line near the second occupation.
It looks like ‘Lived private’  :-\

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1868/11464/8213477.pdf
Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: Mckha489 on Thursday 03 September 20 21:34 BST (UK)
The line that looks like Private is crossed out is the cross for the T isn’t it. Like T in Merchant also
Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: Maiden Stone on Friday 04 September 20 02:02 BST (UK)
This one is not quite the same - easier to read but no line near the second occupation.
It looks like ‘Lived private’  :-\

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1868/11464/8213477.pdf
I agree. Letter L is like L in "Licence".  A way of saying he had a private income, he didn't have to work?
Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: gaffy on Friday 04 September 20 04:52 BST (UK)

This one is not quite the same - easier to read but no line near the second occupation.
It looks like ‘Lived private’  :-\

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1868/11464/8213477.pdf


Ooooh... I wonder why there are 2 registration records for the same marriage?  ???

(assuming the OP's version is 1868, even though it looks like 1865)

Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: gaffy on Friday 04 September 20 05:29 BST (UK)
There was/is an area/property  shown on maps called Frenchpark in the townland of Ballygrooby (Drummaul civil parish), just to the east of Randalstown (approx. half a mile, immediately off the Barnish Road).

Look at the groom in the following 1872 marriage, Henry F. Craig of 'Ballygrubey Drumaul Co. Antrim', father John Craig recorded as a linen merchant ...
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1872/11323/8155500.pdf

... for the marriage notice in local newspapers of the time described him as 'Mr. Henry F. Craig, Frenchpark, Randalstown, county Antrim'.

Also, when a Mary Elizabeth Craig of Randalstown, Drummaul (widow of a linen manufacturer) died in 1880 ...
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1880/06480/4864243.pdf

... the local newspaper death notice read 'Craig - At the residence of her daughter, Randalstown, on the 13th inst., Mary E. Craig, of Frenchpark, aged 80 years.'.
 
This essay from the National Folklore Schools' Collection (1937-8) suggests a farmhouse called French park in that area as well:
https://www.duchas.ie/en/cbes/5009063/4982709/5119717


Edited to add: A local newspaper in 1903 carried a notice announcing 'instructions from JOHN CRAIG, Esq., to Sell by Public AUCTION... ALL THAT VERY DESIREABLE FARM OF LAND AND PREMISES, with the Buildings thereon, known as "FRENCHPARK," situate in the Townland of Ballygrooby, containing 75a. 2r. 6p., or thereabouts...'.

Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: gaffy on Friday 04 September 20 06:35 BST (UK)
The words 'Lived Private' (ie. private means / income, there are lots of examples of 'living private' stated for occupation in the 1901 and 1911 Ireland censuses) would indicate that Andrew Moore was deceased.  I also wondered about the following local newspaper death notice in April 1874: 'MOORE - April 10, at Randalstown, Nancy, relict of the late Mr. Andrew Moore, aged 66 years.'. Relating to that notice (albeit death date is out by a day), there is the following gravestone inscription in Drummaul Church of Ireland graveyard: 'Erected by George Moore, in loving memory of his father, Andrew Moore, died, 5th February 1863, also his mother, Annie Moore, died, 11th April 1874'. Just a possibility.

Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: gaffy on Friday 04 September 20 07:22 BST (UK)

... Also, when a Mary Elizabeth Craig of Randalstown, Drummaul (widow of a linen manufacturer) died in 1880 ...
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1880/06480/4864243.pdf

... the local newspaper death notice read 'Craig - At the residence of her daughter, Randalstown, on the 13th inst., Mary E. Craig, of Frenchpark, aged 80 years.'.
 

Further to the above Mary Elizabeth Craig who died in 1880, she is buried in the Old Congregation Presbyterian Church Cemetery at Randalstown, here is the grave inscription:

Erected to the memory of John Craig, who departed this life, October 8th 1826, aged 72 years, also, of Agnes, his wife, who departed this life, January 19th 1830, aged 70 years, likewise, of their son, John junior, who departed this life January 29th 1848, aged 57 years, also, of their son, James, who departed this life, September 16th 1861, aged 70 years, and Mary E Craig, wife of the above named John Craig, junior, died, 13th March 1880, aged 80 years

Grave image:
https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2016/258/169960947_1473966009.jpg

Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: heywood on Friday 04 September 20 07:41 BST (UK)
Thanks gaffy = great information. :)
Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: darianb on Friday 04 September 20 09:43 BST (UK)
Thank you everyone, this is all amazing information. It's given me several new angles to investigate.

Something that stands out are the signatures on the two different registrations. Would you say James Moore's signature is significantly different? The reason I ask is that I'm trying to see if it's the same James Moore who married Victoria Brown in 1859 but the writing looks quite different. The other issue is that his father, Andrew, was a farmer rather than having lived private.

Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: Karen McDonald on Friday 04 September 20 10:44 BST (UK)
Hi,

The 2 signatures are completely different. Even allowing for a change of style over time...

Best regards,
Karen
Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: heywood on Friday 04 September 20 10:50 BST (UK)
Not sure if this refers to your people

Calendar of Wills
1868
Andrew Moore - late of Dagmar Street Belfast , Gentleman, a Widower died 29 May 1868
Letters of Administration granted to James Moore, Beersbridge Cottage, Ballymacarrett, CountyDown, Flax Merchant, one of the next of kin.
Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: arthurk on Friday 04 September 20 11:42 BST (UK)

This one is not quite the same - easier to read but no line near the second occupation.
It looks like ‘Lived private’  :-\

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1868/11464/8213477.pdf


Ooooh... I wonder why there are 2 registration records for the same marriage?  ???

(assuming the OP's version is 1868, even though it looks like 1865)

The image from GRONI in the OP's first post looks as though it's from an original register. (I'm not sure how GRONI sourced their images, but if the system is similar to the English one, it may be from a register that was lodged at a local register office when it was full.)

The image that heywood found at irishgenealogy.ie appears to be of the quarterly return sent in by the minister. You can tell this by the form of certification at the bottom of the page - and it also means that the 'signatures' in that image are actually the minister's transcription of the original entries.
Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: Elwyn Soutter on Friday 04 September 20 12:30 BST (UK)
[



The image from GRONI in the OP's first post looks as though it's from an original register. (I'm not sure how GRONI sourced their images, but if the system is similar to the English one, it may be from a register that was lodged at a local register office when it was full.)

The image that heywood found at irishgenealogy.ie appears to be of the quarterly return sent in by the minister. You can tell this by the form of certification at the bottom of the page - and it also means that the 'signatures' in that image are actually the minister's transcription of the original entries.
[/quote]

The system for church weddings was that the couple signed two registers. One was kept by the church and the other sent off to the GRO on a quarterly basis.  In 1922, when Ireland was partitioned, GRO clerks in Dublin copied all the marriages and so created the set you see on the irishgenealogy site. GRONI acquired the originals (for Northern Ireland) and you can see them on their site.
Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: arthurk on Friday 04 September 20 13:34 BST (UK)
The system for church weddings was that the couple signed two registers. One was kept by the church and the other sent off to the GRO on a quarterly basis.  In 1922, when Ireland was partitioned, GRO clerks in Dublin copied all the marriages and so created the set you see on the irishgenealogy site. GRONI acquired the originals (for Northern Ireland) and you can see them on their site.

Thanks, Elwyn - I hadn't known about the copying process in 1922. But I do have one observation: in England both registers are kept in the church until they are full, and the quarterly return is a separate sheet of paper which is sent to the local superintendent registrar, who collates the returns for his district and forwards them to the GRO. Are you sure it wasn't the same here? (The wording at the foot of the irishgenealogy.ie image indicates that a copy was submitted rather than the actual register.)

However, I agree that the GRONI images seem to be of the original registers, since they show a variety of signatures.
Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: Elwyn Soutter on Friday 04 September 20 14:18 BST (UK)
I am pretty sure that it is/was the whole second register that went to GRONI (and not a copy) because the signatures are originals.
Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: darianb on Friday 04 September 20 20:34 BST (UK)
Not sure if this refers to your people

Calendar of Wills
1868
Andrew Moore - late of Dagmar Street Belfast , Gentleman, a Widower died 29 May 1868
Letters of Administration granted to James Moore, Beersbridge Cottage, Ballymacarrett, CountyDown, Flax Merchant, one of the next of kin.

Thanks, that one is a possibility. I know that flax was popular at the time but James' witness was also in the business and his father in law in linen.
Title: Re: Deciphering text on a Northern Irish marriage registration
Post by: darianb on Friday 04 September 20 20:36 BST (UK)
The words 'Lived Private' (ie. private means / income, there are lots of examples of 'living private' stated for occupation in the 1901 and 1911 Ireland censuses) would indicate that Andrew Moore was deceased.  I also wondered about the following local newspaper death notice in April 1874: 'MOORE - April 10, at Randalstown, Nancy, relict of the late Mr. Andrew Moore, aged 66 years.'. Relating to that notice (albeit death date is out by a day), there is the following gravestone inscription in Drummaul Church of Ireland graveyard: 'Erected by George Moore, in loving memory of his father, Andrew Moore, died, 5th February 1863, also his mother, Annie Moore, died, 11th April 1874'. Just a possibility.

Thanks for all of your help. I'm now putting together a tree one this family to see if I can find a connection to my Moores. I think I'll make a new post once I have that explaining my main aim - to find out what happened to James Moore.